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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 99 : Issue 97

	 [B7L] More drops in the ocean of drool
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 Re: [B7L] More drops in the ocean of drool
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 [B7L] Steven and Stephen on stage
	 [B7L] Syndeton Experiment--New Broadcast Date!
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 [B7L] "Shadow" in frame library
	 [B7L] Mary Sue
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 Re: Re [B7L]: Mary Sues
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 [B7L] Re: Assassin
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?
	 Re: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 Re: [B7L] Allure Def? & bits (was Re:Allure, Power Games and Tarrant...)
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 [B7L] Fannishness and cliches
	 [B7L] Re: Assassin
	 Re: [B7L] Vila and Es
	 [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings]
	 Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings]
	 Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings]
	 [B7L] Seeking frame library requests
	 Re: [B7L] Vila and Es
	 [B7L] Fannishness and Cliches
	 [B7L] Re: Yet another site of possible interest.
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you
	 Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you
	 [B7L] only geeks need apply
	 Re: [B7L]Fannishness
	 Re: [B7L] Assassin
	 [B7L] Vila the vamp
	 [B7L] Re: Yet another site of possible interest.
	 Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings]
	 Re: [B7L] Fannishness and Cliches
	 Blake-Avon-Tarrant (was Re: [B7L] Assassin)
	 Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you
	 Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you
	 Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings]
	 [Fwd: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?]
	 Re: [B7L]Fannishness
	 Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?]
	 Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?]
	 [B7L] Assassin
	 Re: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?
	 [B7L] Cult TV guests
	 [B7L] Redemption competitions


Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:01:15 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] More drops in the ocean of drool
Message-ID: <19990311220116.27200.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

>A friend of mine went to see the show in Richmond the other night >(and 
sweetly picked up a program and a poster for me :).  She reports >that 
Steven had a new haircut and was looking good.  

<evil grin> If she's that much like you, Carol, she'd report he was 
looking good no matter what sort of haircut he had!

>All the usual groveling applies: 

Not what one expects from the Godmother. Be strong, woman! <grin>

Regards
Joanne


Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 14:18:06 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <19990311221807.14317.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

Neil said:
>Caroline Holdaway might not be much of an actress, Cancer is even >less 
of an assassin - how many real assassins redo their hair in order >to 
gloat before taking their time over a kill?  Having captured Avon, >she 
should have just shot him.  Better still, she should have shot him 
>without going to the trouble of capturing him first.  Obviously 
>someone who's never read the Evil Overlord list.

Mmmm. All this is very true, particularly about the quick trip to the 
hair salon (probably the same one patronised by Soolin, from the looks 
of it). But there'd be no episode after they got on board Cancer's ship 
(or anybody else's, for that matter). You might call it the K9 effect - 
unless the very thing that might be useful to someone (in Cancer's case, 
the common sense to have read the Evil Overlord list <grin>) is put out 
of action, there is no episode/movie. Neil, you might have to 
collaborate with Harriet on that platonic B7. The rest of us will have 
keep practicing (and practising) our suspension of disbelief.

>Besides, Stardrive was written by James Follett, who also wrote >Dawn 
of the Gods, which I consider _the_ worst B7 episode ever, so >bad I 
eventually decided to refuse to recognise it as canon.

Ooh. I knew Stardrive had a bad reputation, but Dawn of the Gods as 
well? Not having seen either, you are making me wary of watching either 
of them if I ever have the opportunity to. Stop it, Neil! <grin>

Regards
Joanne
(who is being irritated by her brother, who refuses to tell her 
something B7 related until she gets back to Newcastle this evening. Not 
even repetition of the word "please" could shift his resolve, the 
so-and-so!)

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:43:24 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] More drops in the ocean of drool
Message-ID: <340ceb5d.36e8470c@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Joanne wrote:

> <evil grin> If she's that much like you, Carol, she'd report he was 
>  looking good no matter what sort of haircut he had!

You obviously haven't heard me curse his hairstyle in "Blythe Spirit" or How a
Gorgeous Man Can Make Himself Ugly. :)  

My friend who saw "Birthday" is equally discriminating (and an Avon fan to
boot).  She's also bolder than I am; she told Steven that he looked less than
pretty in Blythe.  So I trust her to know a good haircut when she sees one.
(Not that I'm trying to encourage fans to go to the play and report back to me
or anything... ;)

>  Not what one expects from the Godmother. Be strong, woman! <grin>

Ooops, you're right.  I can't find my Marlon Brando accent; John Wayne will
have to do.  "Y'all get your hides to that play and report back to me or y'all
will be swinging from them thar cottonwoods come August." 

Carol Mc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 17:43:27 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <f950e06d.36e8470f@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Joanne wrote:

>  Yes, I love that bit too. He looks so comfortable waiting for 
>  Tarrant to put "Cancer" in the right position to be threatened properly. 
>  Which Tarrant, very obligingly, does. Good man, Tarrant. Very useful 
>  <bigger grin>

Tarrant is a sweetie.  I love that scene myself.  Tarrant is such an obedient,
helpful puppy.  He'd charge into the fires of hell for Avon, and Avon knows
it.  

I've long been a fan of "Assassin."  It's refreshing to see Avon volunteer
himself for the dirty work (allowing himself to be caught by the slavers).
The visual image of Avon and Tarrant stalking about Cancer's ship side-by-
side, guns drawn, is worth the price of admission alone.   Poor needy Tarrant
is so easy for Servalan and Cancer to read.  They know just what to do to get
him on "Piri's" side.  It was also refreshing to see one of the women, Soolin,
save the day.  Tarrant is perfectly scrumptious at the end when he tells Dayna
that he thinks she left their rescue to the last minute on purpose.  Both
Tarrant and Avon do look a bit worn; Soolin seems to have come through the
last-minute rescue in much better spirits. 

Carol Mc

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 16:16:53 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <36E85CF4.7EFD7DD5@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mac4781@aol.com wrote:

> Tarrant is a sweetie.  I love that scene myself.  Tarrant is such an obedient,
> helpful puppy.  He'd charge into the fires of hell for Avon, and Avon knows
> it.

Not surprising from an A/T fan :) But I shall admit here that I'm beginning to
think that the A-T relationship is the mirror of the B-A relationship; by the end
of series D, it does begin to look as if Tarrant is secretly sort of
hero-worshipping Avon; he does seem in places to give in to Avon rather too
easily, possibly wanting his approval. Gives the ending of 'Blake' extra-special
undertones, doesn't it?

Mistral
--
"Tarrant is young, handsome, brave-- three good reasons for anyone not to like
him"--Avon

Well, you didn't expect me to end a post by complementing Tarrant, did you Carol?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:07:43 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, space-city@world.std.com
Subject: [B7L] Steven and Stephen on stage
Message-ID: <51dc44cd.36e868df@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Direct from Diane, more hot off the presses news on B7ers on stage.

Here's an additional venue for Steven Pacey in The Birthday Party:
The Alhambra, Bradford (BO 01274 75200)    6-10 April

And Stephen Greif is set to stomp the boards as well:
Stephen Greif will be appearing in "Immaculate Misconception."  Previews 16
March, playing 22 March-24 April at the New End Theatre, Hampstead, London NW3
(BO 0171 794 0022). 

Carol Mc


AND FINALLY I had a call from Brian Lighthill today asking me to
urgently pass the word that the Beeb have changed the broadcast date
AGAIN for the Syndeton Experiment - it's now going to be on BBC Radio 4
on Saturday 10th APRIL.  (with the CD release on 5th April, which
Horizon is selling at a discount, of course).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 20:07:44 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, space-city@world.std.com
Subject: [B7L] Syndeton Experiment--New Broadcast Date!
Message-ID: <a87a6907.36e868e0@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Important news on the second B7 radio play:

Diane got a call from Brian Lighthill today asking her to urgently pass the
word that the Beeb have changed the broadcast date for Syndeton Experiment.
Again!  It's now scheduled to be on BBC Radio 4 on Saturday 10th APRIL.
(Moved up from the May broadcast date!)

With the CD release scheduled for 5th April.  (Horizon is selling the CD at a
discount.)

Carol Mc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:13:42 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <7665fee7.36e87856@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Mistral:

> Not surprising from an A/T fan :) But I shall admit here that I'm beginning 
> to
>  think that the A-T relationship is the mirror of the B-A relationship;

Ack, no, anything but that...  (You do know how to send me screaming. <g>)
While it's true that both relationships involve a person in charge and an
independent-minded second banana, there are some basic differences.  Avon
isn't comfortable in the second-string quarterback spot.  He follows Blake
grudgingly.  Tarrant is more than willing to be a follower, as soon Avon
establishes that he's willing to lead.  I think Avon had it a lot easier than
Blake ever did.  

> by the end
>  of series D, it does begin to look as if Tarrant is secretly sort of
>  hero-worshipping Avon; he does seem in places to give in to Avon rather too
>  easily, possibly wanting his approval. 

I think Tarrant is putting out an extra effort on behalf of the team.  And
it's pretty easy for him to agree with Avon when their 4th season goals so
often coincided.  But Tarrant isn't a guaranteed yes-man for Avon, which I
appreciate.  Nor does Avon appear to take Tarrant's support for granted.   I
especially like that at the beginning of "Sand" Avon specifically asks Tarrant
what he thinks about the plan to go to Virn.  And I also like that Avon
respected Tarrant enough to confide in him about the fake Orac in "Orbit"
(which follows up on Avon's confiding in Tarrant in "Stardrive"). 

But are you telling me that you think Avon hero-worshipped Blake? 

> Gives the ending of 'Blake' extra-special
>  undertones, doesn't it?

Now this sounds interesting.  You'll have to tell me what you mean by "extra-
special undertones." 

>  "Tarrant is young, handsome, brave-- three good reasons for anyone not to 
> like him"--Avon
>  
>  Well, you didn't expect me to end a post by complementing Tarrant, did you 
> Carol?

But that was a compliment.  Avon recognizes that human nature being what it
is, people are going to resent Tarrant for being so well-favored.  Avon was
explaining to Soolin why Vila might not have much use for Tarrant.  Just a
short time earlier, Avon admitted, "He's good material, is Tarrant, one of the
best."

Carol Mc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 23:04:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Claudia Mastroianni <cmastr@fas.harvard.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-Id: <199903120404.XAA24071@login5.fas.harvard.edu>

Carol Mc (Mac4781@aol.com) wrote:
: Mistral:
: > Not surprising from an A/T fan :) But I shall admit here that I'm beginning 
: > to
: >  think that the A-T relationship is the mirror of the B-A relationship;

I think this is a marvelous notion and I'm about to watch the series over
again and I'll have to see how this pans out.  :)

: > by the end
: >  of series D, it does begin to look as if Tarrant is secretly sort of
: >  hero-worshipping Avon; he does seem in places to give in to Avon rather too
: >  easily, possibly wanting his approval. 
: But are you telling me that you think Avon hero-worshipped Blake? 

I think that given the different temperaments of Tarrant and Avon, what
shows up in Avon as bristling and fighting and in the end playing along
with Blake, might well show up in Tarrant as "hero-worship".  But I
don't know, this is a first reaction.

: > Gives the ending of 'Blake' extra-special
: >  undertones, doesn't it?
: Now this sounds interesting.  You'll have to tell me what you mean by "extra-
: special undertones." 

JEALOUSY!  Tarrant told Avon Blake had set him up!  Tarrant caused Avon to
kill Blake because he didn't want Avon and Blake to be a team again!  Wow,
what a scenario.

: >  "Tarrant is young, handsome, brave-- three good reasons for anyone not to 
: > like him"--Avon

This quote is perfect for this theory... I was thinking it before I 
read this far.  :)

Claudia (peering out from lurkerdom)
-- 
   "Three million years in the future, the only suriving human 
   rebel is Kerr Avon, his only companions, a creature that evolved 
   from his pet thief, and a hologram of his dead shipmate, Gan.   
   Additional; it has been two months since we discovered the still 
   working ancient cloning facilities in deep space and Avon is 
   running out of Blake's to shoot."   --John McKenzie

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:07:49 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] "Shadow" in frame library
Message-Id: <4.1.19990311220742.00b6ecd0@dallas.net>
Message-Id: <4.1.19990311220742.00b6ecd0@dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

"Shadow" has been added to my B7 video frame capture library. The library
is located at: <http://lcw.simplenet.com/b7lib.html>.

	- Lisa 
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com

Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 99 04:20:00 GMT 
From: s.thompson8@genie.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Mary Sue
Message-Id: <199903120441.EAA05645@rock103.genie.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I've heard male Mary Sues called "Mark Sam."  There's a charming example in
one of the older =Blake's 7:  The Other Side= zines (the adult companion
zine of =Chronicles=, the longrunning Australian zine that has the most
issues of any B7 fiction zine I know of), called "Marcus Sampson and the
Orabanda Dragon."  A male Australian veterinarian finds himself in the B7
universe and has an affair with Servalan (it's not explicit, as I recall,
and it's a cute story, if any of you gen-only fans want to look it up).  I
thought Marcus Sampson was a genuine Mark Sam, since the name on the story
was Greg Dales; but it turns out that's a pseudonym of Moira Dahlberg (as
she herself explains in some other zine), so it's a fake Mary Sue.

I think there are a good many male Mary Sues in pro adventure fiction.
Conan the Barbarian and his ilk strike me as really obvious.  When it comes
to B7, I think that Avon serves as Mary Sue (or Mark Sam if you will) for a
lot of male readers and writers.  And I recall one blatant example on this
very list, a while ago now, that had the crew PGP being rescued by an
original male character (dashing and brilliant, of course) whose name was an
anagram of the author's.

In another fandom-- ever read the SF novel by George Takei?  So obvious it's
downright embarrassing (but also kind of sweet, since it's such a classic
first fan story that I'm sure he really did write it himself instead of
having it ghosted).

Sarah T.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:14:25 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <36E8A2B1.1802FA7A@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Oops, sent this to Neil by mistake, sorry Neil


Some comments by way of explanation, not argument:

Neil Faulkner wrote:

>  The whole slave trader thing is camped up into an
> embarrassing farce (there is such a thing as real slavery - it deserves
> better treatment than this).

This is a serious question and deserves a serious answer. IMO, the world is
a
brutal place to live, and we all experience some truly nasty things over a
lifetime. You laugh, you cry, or you shut down. I'm trying very hard to
learn to
laugh. I don't laugh a specific, realistically depicted acts of aggression
against *anybody*, but I have no compunctions about laughing at obvious
comedic
fakes.

Also, since I don't see B7 as SF (it fails the test that I have been taught
--
the plot must grow out of the technology, not be transplantable to another
culture), but rather as swashbuckling in space, the slavers don't hit a
jarring
note with me, as they are rather a swashbuckling staple (cliché), and I see
the
whole episode as camp.

> It might not be 'playing the game' to cite external factors when slating an
> episode, but when there is insufficient incitement to suspend your
> disbelief, you're just left feeling that you're watching a cheapskate
> production cobbled together by people who know next to bugger all about
> science fiction.  Or assassination.  Or youth culture.

Possibly a cultural gap here. Forgive me for being honest when I say that
this
is, in my experience *only*, pretty much the American attitude about nearly
all
BBC sci-fi. Outside of a small group of Dr. Who and Red Dwarf fans I know,
I'm
fairly regularly ridiculed for liking British TV. I say "I was watching Dr.
Who"
and my friend says "Oh, isn't that the one with the bubble-wrap monster?"
Having
suspended my disbelief enough to watch 'The Way Back', 'Spacefall', and the
other forty-odd eps that precede 'Assassin', I find it quite easy enough to
make
the comparatively tiny further stretch to 'Assassin'. Suspension of
disbelief is
pretty much an act of will; you either want to badly enough or you don't.
If you
start throwing things out because you don't like them, you might as well
give up
the show and start writing your own (generic you here). I think most
writers
would not be pleased by readers throwing out whole chapters of their
novels.
Besides which, I love puzzles, so sorting the thing into some sort of logic
is
half the fun. B7 is my recreation. When I want social relevance, I'll watch
a
news magazine.

Just IMHO,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 21:15:55 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re [B7L]: Mary Sues
Message-ID: <36E8A30B.4C03A650@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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This one got misdirected too! More apologies, Neil.

Neil Faulkner wrote:

> A question I meant to ask on this topic before things got a bit over-heated
> (and no, I am not trying to turn the temperature back up) - it seems that
> some readers at least are inclined to regard any OCF as a Mary Sue, but does
> this hold true when the writer is male?

I suspect that male writers come under less scrutiny in this area,
particularly
in a fandom with a predominantly female readership.

> I can see why a female writer might
> want to write a Mary Sue, but most male writers wouldn't have that
> motivation?  Or do they - is there a male MS equivalent?

Others have answered this specifically; I'll only reiterate that I think
the
problem comes when the character is used for obvious wish-fulfillment
instead of
for the story.

> I freely admit that I've used original characters (male and female) as a
> personal mouthpiece in some of my stories, but in all such cases I was using
> them as a transient vehicle for the ideas I wanted to express, not as
> personal avatars.

The problem that I personally see here (and admit that others might not)
being
twofold: first, using characters as a mouthpiece *is* *automatically* using
said
character as a personal avatar; a character is supposed to express his own
ideas, not the author's. The two may sometimes coincide, but this should
only
happen when it serves the story. It is in the story as a whole where ideas
and
themes should be discussed; and even then you cannot be sure that the
conclusion
that the story seems to draw is actually the author's personal opinion. If
making a point is more important than good storytelling, one should (IMHO)
write
an essay. Sermonizing and good stories *rarely* *deliberately* coincide.

Second problem (which really goes back to the questions *I* ignorantly
asked so
long ago): It's really just a matter of degree, isn't it? And I was looking
for
an easy answer, a cutoff point, so to speak; but perhaps there's not one
definitive answer. *Every* *single* *character* comes *completely* from
within
the author -- you *cannot* portray, deliberately or accidentally, anything
which
is not inside you in some degree (holds true for any art form -- my
personal
experience being in the performing arts, predominately music). You do not
have
to be a murderer to write one, but you must extrapolate from your own
feelings
and possible motives. This connects back to your comments (Neil) about each
writer having to construct a personal canon, beginning with what we see
onscreen. You always ought to know more background for a character than you
put
in the story <she egregiously pontificated>.

This also connects back to Sestina2's question about Paul Darrow/Avon; it's
impossible to say how much of Paul Darrow is in Avon; but I must
respectfully
disagree with Paul and Janet Lees Price (re: Vicks lovely post on PD);
*every*
*bit* of Avon that actually exists is in Paul Darrow. (Avona's post on this
is quite eloquent). Even when you're working with someone else's words, you
have to find a way to make them your own -- acting and singing both. Even
if the performance (or story) comes out *very* differently from what you
intended, it all comes from you; oddly enough, this even applies to
complete artistic incompetence, in a way (not what I think is going on with
Paul, BTW).

So every character is an avatar of *sorts* -- the problem in fiction arises
when
it gets to the point that the reader is aware of it and bothered by it --
apparently this varies from reader to reader; I just don't know where the
*likeliest* cutoff point is.

And now I'll backpedal a bit <grin>. The part of a character that doesn't
come
from the creator, comes from the observer. I suppose the cutoff point is
where
the artistic vision clashes with what the observer wishes to see in the
character. Which is probably more narrowly defined in an established fandom
than
in a book from scratch, or a new sculpture, or even one of Shakespeare's
plays,
theatre being such a fluid medium. I know that I personally am truly
horrified
by elevator music <grin>. YMMV.

Mistral (somebody pass me the jar of creepy crawlies, please)
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 22:24:30 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <36E8B31D.92E4CFA2@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All of the following just my own take, of course.

Mac4781@aol.com wrote:

> While it's true that both relationships involve a person in charge and an
> independent-minded second banana, there are some basic differences.  Avon
> isn't comfortable in the second-string quarterback spot.  He follows Blake
> grudgingly.

Avon originally really doesn't want to lead *or* follow, he just wants to be left
alone. He was a good check for Blake though, just as Tarrant was for him later.

>  Tarrant is more than willing to be a follower, as soon Avon
> establishes that he's willing to lead.  I think Avon had it a lot easier than
> Blake ever did.

Well, actually, I see this more as Tarrant and Cally wanting Avon to lead in the
opposite direction that Avon really wanted to go in. Tarrant was willing not to be
in charge as long as Avon was doing something Tarrant thought was worthy. Avon
really would have been content to play and explore, I think -- 'Kairos',
'Ultraworld', 'Deathwatch'. Avon was trying at this point, I think, to free
himself from the spectre of Blake. This is, IMHO, the source of Tarrant's nasty
speech to Avon in 'Sarcophagus'.

>  But Tarrant isn't a guaranteed yes-man for Avon, which I
> appreciate.  Nor does Avon appear to take Tarrant's support for granted.

But these are also true of Blake-Avon.

> But are you telling me that you think Avon hero-worshipped Blake?

And I thought I'd made that clear on several occasions. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
If you want the reasons, you'll have to say so; I've been too verbose today, and
it would be rather long.

Avon did not want to admire Blake, but found that  eventually not only did he
admire Blake, but trusted Blake and wanted Blake's approval, a pattern I see being
repeated with Avon-Tarrant.

> > Gives the ending of 'Blake' extra-special
> >  undertones, doesn't it?
>
> Now this sounds interesting.  You'll have to tell me what you mean by "extra-
> special undertones."

Claudia's hit it -- Jealousy. Not necessarily actually wanting Avon to kill Blake
(although that could start a good PGP), but Tarrant thinking (subconsciously):
"This is the man that you trust so much? That you gave up everything to find? He's
betrayed us all, he's not worthy of your trust. I would never betray you; yet you
treat me like a fool!" Tarrant wanting to protect Avon, and yet also wanting Avon
to know that Blake is not the friend to him that Tarrant is. Largely shock, of
course, over Blake being so different than Tarrant had been led to expect.

> >  "Tarrant is young, handsome, brave-- three good reasons for anyone not to
> > like him"--Avon

> But that was a compliment.

Actually, I see it as the equivalent of calling Tarrant a naive idealist. He's
expressing solidarity with Vila's opinion -- Tarrant's youthful enthusiasm is
dangerous and annoying.

>  Just a
> short time earlier, Avon admitted, "He's good material, is Tarrant, one of the
> best."

Ooooh! Now this is a very complex bit of (INTP) psychology. Avon says this in a
*very* sarcastic way -- practically chortling. IMHO, the correct interpretation is
the truth masquerading as a lie masquerading as the truth. On the surface, to most
people, obviously true; Avon using sarcasm to make it a lie; but underneath, Avon
knows it *is* true -- simply doesn't want anyone to know that he thinks so. That
would be opening a chink in Avon's armor. Very typical of Avon. Never risk a
direct lie when you can lie with the truth. But he didn't intend Soolin to see it
as anything but sarcasm -- or at most to leave her wondering if he meant it.

Oh, la, never thought I'd enjoy an Avon-Tarrant conversation so much.

Grins,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:11:08 -0000
From: "Susan Bennett" <susanb@iol.ie>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Assassin
Message-ID: <015101be6c25$9032f140$3993cbc1@compaq>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1999 18:33:21 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <36E87CF0.C27A7F9@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:39:22 +1030
From: "Dunne, Martin Lydon - DUNML001" <DUNML001@students.unisa.edu.au>
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?
Message-ID: <AE6AF4DBBDA8D111B1D200AA00DD6129015E9452@EXSTUDENT4.Magill.UniSA.Edu.Au>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

I am asking these questions in a manner by which they can be both answered
canonically and as criticism acknowledging the fictional nature of the show.
Fell free to respond in either, or both, frames of mind.

Why do the communications devices in the show project an oval image upon some
rather incongruous looking places? Really good visual technology in the future,
or over reliance on rather poor visual technology now?
(Servalan rings Travis. Image appears on Travis' forehead)
Travis (Mk II): I can't see anything! My head is stuck in the cupboard!

Why do the Space City badges exclude four crew members? Is there another badge
featuring them, in honour of that rarest of slash fiction, Gan/Zen/Orac/Slave?

Why does David Jackson's voice come out of the diagnostic machine in
"Breakdown"? Does it deliver its verdict in the voice of the patient for some
psychological reason, or was this to pay him back for having to act like a
total 'nana in this story?

Why do the two Obsidianites running up to meet the Federation troopers in
"Volcano" appear and disappear as they move towards them? No comment is made of
this in the story, does it really occur?

Do we accord the same certainty of canonical inclusion to all the television
production? Would anyone say a later season would be less authoritative tan an
early one? What if "Blake" was revealed to be a dream? Would anyone be happy
with such a cheap overturning of such a story?

Does anyone else feel Terry Nation was drawing from some form of stereotyping
in his scripts? NOT that there is anything wrong with that, if done in style.
Or that character development was a sucession of cliches? As an example, the
development of the Daleks featured a couple of major turnarounds, from
misunderstood victims to merciless aggressors, from an allegory about the cold
war to one of the second world war. Can anyone see such trends in Blakes 7?

My question about the running order of season three included an assumption that
Avon was the instigator in "Terminal", he was aware of the transmissions and
chose to respond rather than responding immediately upon hearing them. This
also presumes some kind of watershed event, such as "Warlord" was for season
four, and so "Rumours of Death" seemed the obvious choice. Were either of these
assumption fair, and why?

I was impressed by the resounding choice of Douglas Camfield as dream director,
especially as he only ever worked on one episode! Every time I watch "Duel" I
don't quite know why it is so gripping, being such a hoary old cliche, until
his name appears in the credits. Is one episode of this series enough to
adequetly judge the mans work? If so, would it be equally fair to judge Andrew
Morgan or Viktors Ritelis? What of the other 14 directors who worked on the
show? Who is everyone's next favorite? Least favorite?

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:52:14 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?
Message-ID: <36E8E3CD.817207EA@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Dunne, Martin Lydon - DUNML001 wrote:

> Why do the two Obsidianites running up to meet the Federation troopers in
> "Volcano" appear and disappear as they move towards them? No comment is made of
> this in the story, does it really occur?

I wondered about this a lot, until I finally decided it must be a rather clumsy way
of indicating the passage of time as the runners approach the troopers.

> Do we accord the same certainty of canonical inclusion to all the television
> production? Would anyone say a later season would be less authoritative tan an
> early one? What if "Blake" was revealed to be a dream? Would anyone be happy
> with such a cheap overturning of such a story?

Ick. I'm happiest with the stun-gun theory, which at least has canonical precedent.

> My question about the running order of season three included an assumption that
> Avon was the instigator in "Terminal", he was aware of the transmissions and
> chose to respond rather than responding immediately upon hearing them. This
> also presumes some kind of watershed event, such as "Warlord" was for season
> four, and so "Rumours of Death" seemed the obvious choice. Were either of these
> assumption fair, and why?

My impression is that he felt free (and possibly relieved) not to search for Blake
as long as there were rumors of Blake being everywhere; it was simply not feasible.
But after the loss of Anna in 'Rumors', and with what appeared to be fairly strong
evidence of Blake's whereabouts, Avon felt *compelled* to go looking, once he had
established the possibility of authenticity.

> What of the other 14 directors who worked on the
> show? Who is everyone's next favorite? Least favorite?

I like Vere Lorrimer; also Mary Ridge (except for 'Animals'); but then I'm usually
out of step on these things :)

Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 01:56:22 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <36E8E4C6.4B79A6F9@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Aagh! Misaddressed once, lost once, third time the charm.

Oops, sent this to Neil by mistake, sorry Neil


Some comments by way of explanation, not argument:

Neil Faulkner wrote:

>  The whole slave trader thing is camped up into an
> embarrassing farce (there is such a thing as real slavery - it deserves
> better treatment than this).

This is a serious question and deserves a serious answer. IMO, the world is
a
brutal place to live, and we all experience some truly nasty things over a
lifetime. You laugh, you cry, or you shut down. I'm trying very hard to
learn to
laugh. I don't laugh a specific, realistically depicted acts of aggression
against *anybody*, but I have no compunctions about laughing at obvious
comedic
fakes.

Also, since I don't see B7 as SF (it fails the test that I have been taught
--
the plot must grow out of the technology, not be transplantable to another
culture), but rather as swashbuckling in space, the slavers don't hit a
jarring
note with me, as they are rather a swashbuckling staple (cliché), and I see
the
whole episode as camp.

> It might not be 'playing the game' to cite external factors when slating an
> episode, but when there is insufficient incitement to suspend your
> disbelief, you're just left feeling that you're watching a cheapskate
> production cobbled together by people who know next to bugger all about
> science fiction.  Or assassination.  Or youth culture.

Possibly a cultural gap here. Forgive me for being honest when I say that
this
is, in my experience *only*, pretty much the American attitude about nearly
all
BBC sci-fi. Outside of a small group of Dr. Who and Red Dwarf fans I know,
I'm
fairly regularly ridiculed for liking British TV. I say "I was watching Dr.
Who"
and my friend says "Oh, isn't that the one with the bubble-wrap monster?"
Having
suspended my disbelief enough to watch 'The Way Back', 'Spacefall', and the
other forty-odd eps that precede 'Assassin', I find it quite easy enough to
make
the comparatively tiny further stretch to 'Assassin'. Suspension of
disbelief is
pretty much an act of will; you either want to badly enough or you don't.
If you
start throwing things out because you don't like them, you might as well
give up
the show and start writing your own (generic you here). I think most
writers
would not be pleased by readers throwing out whole chapters of their
novels.
Besides which, I love puzzles, so sorting the thing into some sort of logic
is
half the fun. B7 is my recreation. When I want social relevance, I'll watch
a
news magazine.

Just IMHO,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:02:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990312120122.6791B-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Neil said:

>how many real assassins redo their hair in order to gloat before taking
>their time over a kill?

Virtually all in the shows I watch. 


Una

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:07:57 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990312120434.6791C-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Joanne said:

>What Soolin says after she slaps Piri is classic (like her comment that
>Orac/Muller's android wouldn't know where to start in the business of
>fulfilling her every desire). 

Yeah, I like all those bits. I like the line about pain making Piri a
better artist a great deal as well - really brilliant bitch, Soolin!



>Tarrant, unfortunately, is still suffering from the effects of
>testosterone - from what we've seen of Piri at that stage, the only
>possible thing Soolin could be jealous of is Piri's ability to arouse
>Tarrant's protective instincts, and one doubts a woman that capable of
>looking after herself would want that for herself.

I've tended to assume that Soolin wasn't jealous of Piri - she just found
her irritating. Plus Piri is an embarrassment to our sex, which makes her
annoying and worth slapping.


Una

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 03:52:42 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
CC: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Allure Def? & bits (was Re:Allure, Power Games and Tarrant...)
Message-ID: <36E9000A.FB09F012@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hi, Russ.

Meant to say this sooner...

> >What *exactly* is the definition of sex-appeal in Gurps again? (And isn't what
> >we
> >were discussing?)
>
> GURPS puts it more nicely, but it's essentially the skill of
> manipulating someone into having sex with you. As an interesting
> sidenote it's actually a Health based skill in the game, whereas I'd
> argue it's a Mental one. Physical attractiveness is already taken
> account of as a modifier to the reaction role anyway.

<huge grin> Tee, hee. Now that I understand the definition better, I must in fact take
back everything I said. Tarrant's and Avon's numbers are right with respect to each
other. But it was still fun. Begs the question, though, how come Jenna gets the skill
then, and Vila doesn't? (Unless, of course, you think of Kerril as a weak-minded woman
who only thought she'd fallen in love with Vila because she'd slept with him when
expecting to die?)

> Pedestrian does not necessarily equal wrong :)

Yes, but unusual is more fun :)

> I can argue any
> viewpoint you like, but when it comes to writing for 'my' Avon the
> default setting is a mixture of conflicting motivations and emotions.
> Humans are complicated. Only maniacs have a single reason for doing
> something.

I look forward to meeting 'your' Avon. Which of your own stories do you like the best?

> Point taken. The arguments for a subconscious death-wish certainly
> have a lot of corroborating evidence. He used to tick Blake off for
> taking far less risky actions than the ones he does. You notice though,
> that most of them only involve direct risk to himself, whereas Blake's
> schemes tended to involve the entire crew.

Wants to take the risks himself, not take everybody with him. IMO far nicer than Blake
in that way. I'm not sure I quite see what you're getting at here, though.

Oh yes, Blake's bard skills -- would that be due to his persuasiveness? Do you see him
as a great orator?

Grins,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 06:57:39 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <43e96282.36e90133@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Apologies to all for my misposts last evening, sending through a blank and not
properly editing the other one.  I should not be allowed near a computer in
the evening when my brain has sunk to half mast.  (Not that I'm much more
competent at peak brain time, mind you. <g>)

Mistral wrote:

> Avon originally really doesn't want to lead *or* follow, he just wants to be
> left  alone. He was a good check for Blake though, just as Tarrant was for
him 
> later.

I agree with all that.  And I very much empathize with Avon.  There's a lot to
be said for only being responsible for oneself.  
  
>  Well, actually, I see this more as Tarrant and Cally wanting Avon to lead
in 
> the  opposite direction that Avon really wanted to go in. Tarrant was
willing not 
> to be
>  in charge as long as Avon was doing something Tarrant thought was worthy. 

Except that Avon didn't appear to be coming up with any plans.  It was as if
he was deliberately distancing himself most of the time.  

> Avon
>  really would have been content to play and explore, I think -- 'Kairos',
>  'Ultraworld', 'Deathwatch'. Avon was trying at this point, I think, to free
>  himself from the spectre of Blake. This is, IMHO, the source of Tarrant's 
> nasty
>  speech to Avon in 'Sarcophagus'.

We see this quite a bit differently.  I appreciate your explaining your
perspective, which allow me to form an overall pattern.  My third season Avon
goes through a sort of developmental period.

1.  Uncertainty.  Blake's not back, but will he be back?  It's not worth the
effort of taking over only to have him return and usurp me.  I should save my
energy for dealing with him on his return.  So he pitters around.  Tarrant
sees a gap and tries to fill it.  It's Tarrant who leads the expedition to
Obsidian and I'd guess the idea for trying to set up a base there is also
Tarrant's idea  (I'd presume with Cally's blessing).  Tarrant who takes
responsibility for replacing the crystals.

2.  What have I got myself into.  Blake's not coming back, but taking over
means being responsible for this lot.  I could get them killed.  That wouldn't
be a very good feeling.  I wish I could just be alone with my toys.  But as
much as he wants to avoid responsibility, he's right there helping out when
he's needed.  I think this is most clearly expressed in Kairos.  He's got his
sopron and he's trying to concentrate on it very hard, to the extent of not
being aware the others exist.  Except he has to rescue them from the guards in
the shuttle.  Then he has to step in before Servalan starts shooting them to
force them to turn over control of Zen.  He really resents being forced into a
position of responsibility.  So when they get down on the planet, he heads off
on his own.  Not that even that attempt at hermit status works. :)

3. It's a dirty job but I seem to be stuck in responsible mode anyway, and I'm
more comfortable doing it myself than taking orders.  Around "Rumors" Avon
decides he's the leader.  And he finds that he has a crew who are willing to
listen to him and follow him with more loyalty than he expected.  And from
there he gradually evolves into the fourth season leader who has even gotten
to where he has a decent working relationship with his second-in-command.

Re: Tarrant's speech in Sarcophagus. The implication in the ep is that the
alien somehow provoked the squabble as a distraction for Cally to activate the
egg.  I think Tarrant did believe what he said, but his good manners would
normally have kept his mouth shut.  I agree that he was disappointed in Avon
at that point and saw him as a less of a leader then he would have liked.  But
I think that was more a reflection of the differences in their personalities
(straightforward Tarrant hadn't yet realized that Avon was seldom
straightforward; he had to forget what Avon was saying and watch what Avon was
doing) than irreparable philosophical differences.
 
>  >  But Tarrant isn't a guaranteed yes-man for Avon, which I
>  > appreciate.  Nor does Avon appear to take Tarrant's support for granted.
>  
>  But these are also true of Blake-Avon.

The difference, for me, is degree of conflict and type of conflict.  When
Tarrant disagreed with Avon, he usually had another course of action to
propose as an alternative.  Much of the time (not always--I appreciated Avon's
plan to take over Star One) Avon's grumbling was on the order of "we shouldn't
do this" without proposing an alternative.  Though I wonder if Avon's lack of
proposing alternate plans might be because he knew it was futile?  Blake
wasn't going to listen.  Now that I'm rewatching first-second seasons, I do
plan to refresh my memories of Blake-Avon and see what I find.
  
>  And I thought I'd made that clear on several occasions. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
> yes.
>  If you want the reasons, you'll have to say so; I've been too verbose
today, 
> and
>  it would be rather long.

No, I don't need the reasons.  Sorry, no doubt I overlooked the hero-worship
because it's one of the things that make me cringe (and I usually stop reading
to spare myself pain <g>).  I don't see either Avon or Tarrant as the type to
hero-worship.  They both seem to have a healthy awareness of the flawed
aspects of their respective leaders.  And they both appear capable of forming
their own assessments of individual situations.  My definition of "hero-
worshipper" is someone who blindly follows a leader and who doesn't try to
think for himself/herself.   
  
>  Avon did not want to admire Blake, but found that  eventually not only did 
> he
>  admire Blake, but trusted Blake and wanted Blake's approval, a pattern I
see 
> being
>  repeated with Avon-Tarrant.

Again, I hope not.  I can see where one might interpret it this way, taking
canon in a different direction that I do, but it's not a way that appeals to
me.  I like strong individuals, as in people who aren't in need of others'
approval to justify their existence.  The Avon and Tarrant I see (and admire)
on the screen are self-motivated in their behavioral patterns.  Avon is
rescuing his teammates not to gain Blake's approval, but because he has to do
it for himself.   When you come right down to it, *my* Avon doesn't care if
anyone likes him, as long as he likes himself.  And ditto for Tarrant.  

>  Claudia's hit it -- Jealousy. Not necessarily actually wanting Avon to kill
> Blake
>  (although that could start a good PGP), but Tarrant thinking
(subconsciously)
> :
>  "This is the man that you trust so much? That you gave up everything to
find?
>  He's
>  betrayed us all, he's not worthy of your trust. I would never betray you; 
> yet you
>  treat me like a fool!" Tarrant wanting to protect Avon, and yet also
wanting 
> Avon
>  to know that Blake is not the friend to him that Tarrant is. Largely shock,
> of
>  course, over Blake being so different than Tarrant had been led to expect.

I see why I was completely blind to what you meant; it's so out-of-tune with
my view of Tarrant.  I do agree that Tarrant was incredibly disappointed in
the Blake he found.  And disillusioned, adding to the bitterness that had been
building inside him throughout the series.  But he's seen that Avon has made
foolish misjudgments in the past (Anna).  And he's accepted that Avon makes
mistakes.  So none of his outrage is directed at Avon.  Tarrant doesn't brood
over other people's mistakes; he forges on.  At the end of "Terminal" Tarrant
doesn't brood over the loss of Liberator and how it came about, he says,
"Let's see if we can't find a way off this planet.  There's a lot to do."

>  Ooooh! Now this is a very complex bit of (INTP) psychology. Avon says this 
> in a
>  *very* sarcastic way -- practically chortling. IMHO, the correct 
> interpretation is
>  the truth masquerading as a lie masquerading as the truth. On the surface, 
> to most
>  people, obviously true; Avon using sarcasm to make it a lie; but
underneath, 
> Avon
>  knows it *is* true -- simply doesn't want anyone to know that he thinks so.

Except that we all know he does think it is true. :)  I agree with everything
you said.  Avon is trying to make it seem sarcastic.  But like many of Avon's
attempts to fool people, it doesn't work.  The Soolin I see on screen is
intelligent enough that she either immediately sees through Avon's sarcasm, or
she keeps that statement in her active file until she's had a chance to
decipher it (and then she sees it for what it really is). 

No time for more posts now, so let me briefly say how much I enjoyed your
observation of Avon's automatic use of "he" in "Assassin."  Good one!  And I
also enjoyed your post on writing, as in characters behaving as themselves,
and the need for well-developed backgrounds for characters to serve as an
anchor for how they are behaving.

Carol Mc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:27:12 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Fannishness and cliches
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990312132320.9607A-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Kathryn,

I really enjoyed your post - thanks. I've been half-heartedly mauling a
murder-mystery story for *ages* and I feel more enthused about going off
and finishing it now. I think part of the problem is that I've been
playing with it for so long that it's turned into a cliche for me - before
anyone else has had the chance to tell me that it actually is!


>So what if Avon shot the clone?  Tell it from the clone's point of
>view!  Avon has a daughter?  Tell it from the mother's point of view!
>Or from Soolin's point of view!  Or *something* different.

I really liked this - I always wince at clone stories, as they seem so
much of a cop-out. But a Soolin perspective is always so fresh. That's
why I liked Judith Proctor's story 'Shane' so much - a different
perspective on very common fan themes.


Una

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:29:37 -0000
From: "Susan Bennett" <susanb@iol.ie>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Assassin
Message-ID: <001b01be6c84$5899a620$cd91cbc1@compaq>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

When this message came back to me it was blank, so I'm sending it
again.  Apologies if it's just my ocmputer and the list gets it twice.


Joanne said:

>>>Ooh. I knew Stardrive had a bad reputation, but Dawn of the Gods as
well? Not having seen either, you are making me wary of watching
either
of them if I ever have the opportunity to. Stop it, Neil! <grin><<<

Pay no attention to Neil <g>.  Even though they are not my favourite
episodes (understatement) there are some nice moments in all of them.

Neil said:

>>>When scripts, production, design, editing and acting are this
dismal, _nothing_ can redeem the episode.  There are some good lines
in
Assassin ('Son of Domo the 8th, presumably') and the main characters
occasionally behave in interesting ways, but fleeting moments like
that are just spitting in the wind.  I don't care if I never see this
one again.<<<

But would you part with your copy of the tape, that's what we want to
know :-)

Susan Bennett

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 04:00:16 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Es
Message-ID: <36E901CF.6E110341@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Una McCormack wrote:

> Are all the Vila fans round here extraverts?

Absolutely not!

Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:33:42 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings]
Message-ID: <19990312183342.A1443@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii


------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 1999 14:19:22 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings]
Message-ID: <ushfrqg811.fsf@sara.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au> writes:

>

Something is broken... The copy of the message that the listbot stuck
in the archive (and the digest-queue) looks fine, but by the time it
gets sent the body has vanished. Foo.
-- 
 Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
		 Hello? Brain? What do we want for breakfast?

------------------------------

Date: 12 Mar 1999 14:41:24 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings]
Message-ID: <usemmug70b.fsf@sara.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se> writes:

> Something is broken... 

A runaway statistics-gatherer is the prime suspect at the moment. It
has been decisively killed, and we hope things will return to normal.
-- 
 Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
		 Hello? Brain? What do we want for breakfast?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:10:10 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Seeking frame library requests
Message-Id: <4.1.19990312120607.00c5c3f0@dallas.net>
Message-Id: <4.1.19990312120607.00c5c3f0@dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I think I'm going to work on "The Way Back" next, since it's under
discussion on Space-City and it seems only fair to get the first episode in
there (given that I've already done the last one.) After that, I will do
one more B7 episode before moving on to work on another show for awhile. I
would like it to be a *fourth* season episode, and I'm taking suggestions
on which one to pick.

So, if there is a fourth season episode you particularly want to see in the
frame library, please send me your vote -- offlist, to me at
<lcw@dallas.net>, so as not to clutter the lists. The voting will last
until I get "The Way Back" done, probably a couple of weeks.

	- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com

Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 10:15:13 -0800
From: Tramila <cdmunoz@earthlink.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Vila and Es
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990312101513.007f3d50@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Tramila's sig says:
>
>>Charter Member and Pres. of V.I.C.E.
>>Vila's Intimately Corruptible Element
>
>Are all the Vila fans round here extraverts?

Probably not.  I'm just a bit <eg> more vocal than the others.  LOL

Tramila
---------
Charter Member and Pres. of V.I.C.E.
Vila's Intimately Corruptible Element
Am I corruptible?  Of course I am! and loving it!!!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 08:13:41 EST
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Fannishness and Cliches
Message-ID: <d9c63392.36e91305@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Does anyone have the web address of that list someone compiled a few years
ago, that listed every common cliche that had cropped up in B7 fanlit, over
the past 20 years? I distinctly remember it and remember finding it enjoyable
and informative.

Leah

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:09:39 +0100
From: Murray Smith <mjsmith@tcd.ie>
To: Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Yet another site of possible interest.
Message-Id: <l03110700b30f08db3a13@[134.226.96.44]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

	For all you fanfic writers, the Evil Overlord list has inspired
more lists. For example, what would you do or not do if you were an Evil
Henchman, a Normal Innocent Bystander, a True Love, or the Hero? I suggest
you go to the web site:

www.erols.com/vansickl/scifi.htm

to find:

A. The Things I Would do if I Am Ever the Hero.

Examples:

8. I will design redundancy into all ship systems, so that the loss of one
component will not cripple the entire vessel.
11. When I am advised to destroy a magical artifact taken from the Evil
Overlord, I will do so.
13. Anyone inquiring after the secret of my strength will be fed a line of
plausible baloney as to how this strength can be lost. If the bogus advice
is followed, the leak shall be properly investigated.
21. Under no circumstance will I agree _not_ to develop or emploit any
particular technology.
26. If my Mentor tells me that I am not yet ready to confront the Evil
Overlord, I will quietly accept his judgement and remain to complete my
training.
43. I will install seatbelts in my space vessels, and have pressure suits
and pressure locks at regular intervals.
52. I do not need to give the Overlord a fair chance. Shooting him in the
back works for me.
72. If I am offered two explanations for a phenomenon, one a logical,
scientific explanation and the other a load of New Age claptrap, I will
accept the scientific explanation.


B. The Things I Will do if I Am ever the True Love.

Examples:

7. I will obtain skill in armed combat, so that when the Evil Overlord and
the Hero are engaged in mortal combat, I can grab some dead henchman's
weapons and help tilt the odds in the Hero's favour.
18. If I am offered a bribe, I will accept it, and inform the Hero by a
pre-arranged means. The happily-ever-after will be happier if we have a
good nest egg to start on.
28. I will obtain a device that the hero can use to locate me when I,
despite my best efforts, am kidnapped.


C. The Things I Will Do if I Am Ever the Sidekick.

Examples:

6. I will not go to town for information if I am routinely beaten to pulp
for doing so.
9. If I am tasked to carry a very important message, I will make copies and
use FedEx to get them to their destination.
13. Before accepting the role of sidekick, I will learn how the position
became redundant.


D. The Evil Henchman's Guide.

Examples:

2. When the hero or his sidekicks are at your mercy, don't stop to gloat.
3. If you can't resist gloating, don't boast about the reward you expect to
receive from your master for bringing them in or killing them off.
7. Unless the Evil Overlord pays extra for indiscriminate slaughter, avoid
it. Why should you gave your services away for free?


E. The Normal Innocent Bystander's Survival Guide.

Examples:

8. When the Bad Guy uses you for a human shield, certain delicate areas of
his body are in striking range of your heel. Go for it.
17. If you notice that your fellow reporter can type 1,024 words a minute,
you should be able to tell that something's up.
22. If a Superhero takes up residence in your city, a nice spacious estate
in the country will helpp you to actualise your potential lifespan.

There is also 'The Grand List of Overused Science Fiction Cliches'. As with
evil characters, not only their henchmen, but also heros, true loves,
sidekicks, and innocent bystanders have been reduced to caricatures. As
before, not only will these lists prove invaluable for any story, they're
all very funny.

							Murray

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 13:12:06 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990312123132.6791G-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:11:36 EST
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you
Message-ID: <cb3fadef.36e974f8@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Mistral wrote:

<< I certainly hope that high ideals and sincere and straightforward behaviour
are
 not limited to one temperament. >>

Ah, this is an excellent point.  It is certainly true that you can be a good,
even an admirable person and be any of the temperaments.  Do you think,
though, that perhaps it is easier for some temperaments to do this than
others?  Anyway, Cally seems to me to be far and away the "best" character,
and by best I mean the most noble and true character, of any on the Liberator.
But perhaps this has nothing to do with her temperament, but more with her
conscious decision to put people before causes or money or personal advance or
any one of the other things that make it so easy for Blake to use people and
Avon to threaten to leave.

Mistral continues:

<< One tiny quibble, here. I've almost always seen Blake listed ENFJ, with
which I
 agree. This gives the exact same NF/NT conflicts between Avon-Blake and
 Avon-Cally, and I perceive the exact same problems -- Avon and Cally rarely
agree
 on whether or not to get involved in a situation -- think of 'Children of
Auron',
 as one example, or 'Rumors', or his comment to her in 'Weapon': "Auron may be
 different, Cally, but on Earth it is considered ill-mannered to kill your
friends
 while committing suicide." I see the same conflict of values; I think the
 difference is that the conflict between Avon-Cally is softened by the male-
female
 dynamic, and Avon's basic gentlemanliness, whereas the conflict with Blake-
Avon is
 exacerbated by their constant alpha-male power struggle and Avon's
insecurity.>>

Your point, here, is really well-thought out.  You've backed it up with
excellent examples from the series.  This does a lot to explain why the 2
conflicts are so different.  I also think the Avon-Cally conflict is
"softened" because Cally sees through some of the tough-guy front that Avon
puts on.  Also, she is a very empathetic person.  As Luke Skywalker said to
his father Darth Vader, Cally could have said to Avon, "I see the good in
you."  (This isn't an exact quote here, but I think I am close.)  

Thanks for your insight, Mistral!

Gail :)
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 14:34:47 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you
Message-Id: <4.1.19990312143044.00bea9a0@dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

VulcanXYZ@aol.com wrote:

>Ah, this is an excellent point.  It is certainly true that you can be a good,
>even an admirable person and be any of the temperaments.  Do you think,
>though, that perhaps it is easier for some temperaments to do this than
>others?

No, because there is no single vision of what constitutes a "good,
admirable person". The qualities people find admirable vary greatly
according to quite a few factors, temperament among them. Those of certain
temperaments may well be more likely to conform to your ideas of what is
admirable, but others might not agree at all. 

	- Lisa

_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com

Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 07:08:02 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] only geeks need apply
Message-ID: <36E92DD1.2F82F7C3@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hi, all.

I'd like to solve a problem which is annoying me, and possibly some of you.
Does anybody who is using Netscape know why sometimes my posts wordwrap
properly and sometimes I get the lines truncated, with the leftover bits on
the next line? This happens quite randomly, without any settings being
changed. It also happens when I have to reopen a post to make edits before
sending it.

I've tried changing every relevant setting I can find, and nothing seems to
work. I'd be happy to save everybody the eyestrain if someone knows how to
fix it :)

Hopefully,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:46:01 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: mistral@ptinet.net, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Message-ID: <e21e690e.36e928a9@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 3/11/99 12:10:17 AM Mountain Standard Time,
mistral@ptinet.net writes:

> My argument was A) It wasn't an exhaustive list because Avon
>  didn't see Anna. B)She was not excluded because of her death, since Blake 
> saw the siblings that he knew were dead. C) No conclusions can be drawn,
therefore, 
> about D) Whether or not Jenna's mother and Avon's brother were dead or
alive, and 
> E) Whether or not any of the three had *other* loved ones. Therefore, Avon 
> having a sister is not excluded by the events in 'Spacefall'.

I agree completely. To me, if they're not *specifically* excluded, then
anything is possible. (And I'm getting fonder of the idea of Avon's Aunties by
the day!!  <grin>)

Nina

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 09:45:59 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <21ca868e.36e928a7@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 3/10/99 10:30:19 PM Mountain Standard Time,
mistral@ptinet.net writes:

> Okay, let's hope I'm not asking a dangerous question here... Will some
people
>  tell me why they hate Stardrive so much? I admit that the Space Rats are
>  =truly= ridiculous-- but I think all the scenes in Scorpio, especially the
>  sequence at the beginning, with Avon making one hell of a mistake and Vila
>  surreptitiously saving the day, are great. And the ending gives us one of
>  those nasty moral issues that people love to argue about. So what's not to
>  like?

Personally, I don't *hate* it, but the Space Rats are just soooo embarrassing
it's almost impossible to watch.  I actually like the story -- if the Space
Rats had been done in more of a Hells Angels style, and with real vehicles
instead of those pathetic ATVs, it might have been a superior episode.

Nina

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 12:44:09 +0000
From: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Vila the vamp
Message-ID: <K2b2cAAZwQ62Ewyh@wriding.demon.co.uk>

In message <36E9000A.FB09F012@ptinet.net>, mistral@ptinet.net
writes
>>
><huge grin> Tee, hee. Now that I understand the definition better, I must in 
>fact take
>back everything I said. Tarrant's and Avon's numbers are right with respect 
>to each
>other. But it was still fun. Begs the question, though, how come Jenna gets the 
>skill
>then, and Vila doesn't? (Unless, of course, you think of Kerril as a weak-
>minded woman
>who only thought she'd fallen in love with Vila because she'd slept with him 
>when
>expecting to die?)
>
I didn't see Vila persuading Kerril to have sex with him against her
natural inclination. I saw two people naturally attracted to each other
and in the early stages of falling in love, and Vila was a perfect
gentleman at all times. Having said that, Vila *does* flirt brazenly
with most pretty women he comes across. Given his notable lack of
success in canon it may be that he's relying on his default skill :)
>
>> I can argue any
>> viewpoint you like, but when it comes to writing for 'my' Avon the
>> default setting is a mixture of conflicting motivations and emotions.
>> Humans are complicated. Only maniacs have a single reason for doing
>> something.
>
>I look forward to meeting 'your' Avon. Which of your own stories do you like 
>the best?
>
That's an easy one. Twice-Numbered Days. It's the only story I've ever
reread without wanting to rewrite wholesale chunks of it. The Avon in
it is 40 years after GP, wracked with guilt that he's determined not to
acknowledge and which he's attempted to sublimate by recreating a
version of Cally (his 'daughter') and by devoting himself totally to the
destruction of the Federation (in Blake's name). To accomplish this
he's done things that would turn stomachs and he knows there are
worse things yet to do...
>.
>
>Oh yes, Blake's bard skills -- would that be due to his persuasiveness? Do you 
>see him
>as a great orator?
>
Bard is not strictly oratory, but the possession of a pleasingly
mellifluous voice and a way of speaking/story-telling that hooks a
listener. Yes, I think Blake (and Gareth) had that.

-- 
Russ Massey
Sirius Games, 161 Montague Street, Worthing,
West Sussex BN11 3BZ
(01903 217334)  http://www.wriding.demon.co.uk

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 15:48:46 +0100
From: Murray Smith <mjsmith@tcd.ie>
To: Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Yet another site of possible interest.
Message-Id: <l03110702b30ed2b99970@[134.226.96.44]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

	For all you fanfic writers, the Evil Overlord list has inspired
more lists. For example, what would you do or not do if you were an Evil
Henchman, a Normal Innocent Bystander, a True Love, or the Hero? I suggest
you go to the web site:

www.erols.com/vansickl/scifi.htm

to find:

A. The Things I Would do if I Am Ever the Hero.

Examples:

8. I will design redundancy into all ship systems, so that the loss of one
component will not cripple the entire vessel.
11. When I am advised to destroy a magical artifact taken from the Evil
Overlord, I will do so.
13. Anyone inquiring after the secret of my strength will be fed a line of
plausible baloney as to how this strength can be lost. If the bogus advice
is followed, the leak shall be properly investigated.
21. Under no circumstance will I agree _not_ to develop or emploit any
particular technology.
26. If my Mentor tells me that I am not yet ready to confront the Evil
Overlord, I will quietly accept his judgement and remain to complete my
training.
43. I will install seatbelts in my space vessels, and have pressure suits
and pressure locks at regular intervals.
52. I do not need to give the Overlord a fair chance. Shooting him in the
back works for me.
72. If I am offered two explanations for a phenomenon, one a logical,
scientific explanation and the other a load of New Age claptrap, I will
accept the scientific explanation.


B. The Things I Will do if I Am ever the True Love.

Examples:

7. I will obtain skill in armed combat, so that when the Evil Overlord and
the Hero are engaged in mortal combat, I can grab some dead henchman's
weapons and help tilt the odds in the Hero's favour.
18. If I am offered a bribe, I will accept it, and inform the Hero by a
pre-arranged means. The happily-ever-after will be happier if we have a
good nest egg to start on.
28. I will obtain a device that the hero can use to locate me when I,
despite my best efforts, am kidnapped.


C. The Things I Will Do if I Am Ever the Sidekick.

Examples:

6. I will not go to town for information if I am routinely beaten to pulp
for doing so.
9. If I am tasked to carry a very important message, I will make copies and
use FedEx to get them to their destination.
13. Before accepting the role of sidekick, I will learn how the position
became redundant.


D. The Evil Henchman's Guide.

Examples:

2. When the hero or his sidekicks are at your mercy, don't stop to gloat.
3. If you can't resist gloating, don't boast about the reward you expect to
receive from your master for bringing them in or killing them off.
7. Unless the Evil Overlord pays extra for indiscriminate slaughter, avoid
it. Why should you gave your services away for free?


E. The Normal Innocent Bystander's Survival Guide.

Examples:

8. When the Bad Guy uses you for a human shield, certain delicate areas of
his body are in striking range of your heel. Go for it.
17. If you notice that your fellow reporter can type 1,024 words a minute,
you should be able to tell that something's up.
22. If a Superhero takes up residence in your city, a nice spacious estate
in the country will helpp you to actualise your potential lifespan.

There is also 'The Grand List of Overused Science Fiction Cliches'. As with
evil characters, not only their henchmen, but also heros, true loves,
sidekicks, and innocent bystanders have been reduced to caricatures. As
before, not only will these lists prove invaluable for any story, they're
all very funny.

							Murray

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 11:54:35 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings]
Message-Id: <4.1.19990312115139.00bd1650@dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 08:45:45 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness and Cliches
Message-ID: <19990313084545.A972@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Fri, Mar 12, 1999 at 08:13:41AM -0500, Bizarro7@aol.com wrote:
> Does anyone have the web address of that list someone compiled a few years
> ago, that listed every common cliche that had cropped up in B7 fanlit, over
> the past 20 years? I distinctly remember it and remember finding it enjoyable
> and informative.

I *think* it's on Sue Clerc's site.
http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html

-- 
 _--_|\	    | Kathryn Andersen		<kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/      \    | 		http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/    | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
      v	    |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |	-> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 18:05:18 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Blake-Avon-Tarrant (was Re: [B7L] Assassin)
Message-ID: <36E9C7DD.116E6168@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Ah, me.
This is a response to Carol's post on the subject.

:( :) Honestly, I don't know whether to laugh or moan, Carol, I know that what
I've said makes you see our views as sooooo far apart, but having read your post I
really think that the big differences are mostly semantics. I agreed with *almost*
everything you said; sometimes you presented something I thought I'd said as if we
were saying the opposite thing. I can only blame myself :)

Regarding what I posited of Tarrant's thoughts on GP, I was thinking out loud,
really just playing around; I'm certainly not married to the idea, nor to the idea
of Tarrant hero-worshipping Avon. Furthermore, you and I are defining both
'wanting approval' and 'hero-worshipping' *extremely* differently, I think.

With the exception of your first point, I think our differences over the third
season are *fairly* minor. And re what you said about 'Sarcophagus', I believe I
agree with you exactly; as a matter of fact, I think that's what I meant to have
said; an awful lot of the time it seems to me as if we're talking tangentially. If
possible, try to forget what I said about Gauda Prime; I don't even know what you
think about that one yet, and I may find it so eminently logical that I can stop
puzzling over it. Actually the only really *big* difference that I see us having
is one key element in Avon's personality, and it's the one that affects
Blake-Avon, of course.

The upside is, that I was going to concentrate on my impressions of Blake for a
while, but now you've got me thinking about the Toothy One. Let's Make a Deal: I
shall give my fullest consideration to your version of Tarrant; and you will spare
just a teeeeeeeeeeeeny bit of yours for my Blake-Avon. I shan't ask for an equal
share because I know you're so much more experienced than I am... Whatsay? You're
watching the first two series anyway..... <evil grin>  We'll do it in little
bits....

The first thing I'd like to do is find a better term than hero-worship. Help me
out now. The definition of the term I'm looking for has, in fact, *nothing* of
blindness about it. What I am looking for encompasses the following stages: 1)
Looking full at the person and seeing all their strengths and weaknesses. 2)
Admiring or being drawn to that person despite their weaknesses. 3) Making a
decision that this person is worthy of your trust and your loyalty; worthy, in
fact, to be followed. 4) Finally making a decision that that loyalty is absolute.

Now, what word would you use for that? Possibly the word for Lancelot's feelings
towards Arthur? Not a good choice, perhaps, but the best example I can think of at
the moment. Some people have called it love, but I think that's too open to
interpretation, has too many definitions. And I don't think loyalty is quite
enough. You have loyalty to your comrades but you don't follow them. My personal
choice for this word has always been devotion; but that particular word gets
*such* 'bad press' these days -- hero-worship actually seemed as if it would go
down easier. But I don't think what I've outlined here is blind at all.

Nor, in fact, do I see it as a weakness; on the contrary, I see the ability to
make that decision and commitment -- and keep it -- a sign of strength. I'm
thinking of knights, of samurai, of holy men --- I believe, in fact, that being a
good follower requires more from a person than being a good leader. Call me crazy.

And I see Avon going through all 4 stages re Blake by 'Terminal'; and possibly
Tarrant getting to stage 3 re Avon by 'Blake'. Frankly, it doesn't seem to me much
different from what you said about Avon-Tarrant. Now, can we walk down this road
together, or will you offer me an alternative? <smile>

Hopefully awaiting your reply (and all sundry comments)
Mistral
--
"We just have to ask the right questions, that's all."--Tarrant

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:19:35 EST
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you
Message-ID: <2fcad6c0.36e9d947@aol.com>
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I wrote (without carefully thinking it through):

<< It is certainly true that you can be a good,
 even an admirable person and be any of the temperaments.  Do you think,
 though, that perhaps it is easier for some temperaments to do this than
 others?>>
 
and Lisa replied:

<< No, because there is no single vision of what constitutes a "good,
 admirable person". The qualities people find admirable vary greatly
 according to quite a few factors, temperament among them.  >>

Gee whiz, every time I post something on the list lately, I'm forced to eat my
words.  Maybe I should think twice before I hit that "send now" button.  My
original thought was that perhaps some people types, such as those who talk
first and think later (gosh, that's me, lately) would have a harder time being
the "admirable person."  What a bunch of bilge.  Lisa is right; there is no
one admirable person.  My apologies!

Gail

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:35:30 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs + a thank you
Message-ID: <36E9DD02.CBD8584F@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Gail! Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

VulcanXYZ@aol.com wrote:

> I wrote (without carefully thinking it through):

Your question.

>   My apologies!
>

 Nooooooooooooooooooooo0oo!!!!

The only stupid question is the one that you never ask because you're afraid of
looking stupid. IMnotsoHO!!!!

Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
"No, you won't, fool!"-- Mistral's evil twin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 19:42:51 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
CC: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] [iswalker@lbl.gov: B7 list musings]
Message-ID: <36E9DEBA.D3C29E46@ptinet.net>
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Calle Dybedahl wrote:

> A runaway statistics-gatherer is the prime suspect at the moment. It
> has been decisively killed, and we hope things will return to normal.

Kill it again. It ain't dead yet.

Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:23:07 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [Fwd: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?]
Message-ID: <36E9E82B.E575B08B@ptinet.net>
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From Avona (if this works, cause I've never done it before).
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila


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Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:37:40 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
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Subject: Re: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?
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> > Do we accord the same certainty of canonical inclusion to all the television
> > production? Would anyone say a later season would be less authoritative tan an
> > early one? What if "Blake" was revealed to be a dream? Would anyone be happy
> > with such a cheap overturning of such a story?
> 
> Ick. I'm happiest with the stun-gun theory, which at least has canonical precedent.
> 
Okay, how horrible is this, then-- I hate 'it was just a dream' stories
in general _but_

I was working on a '5th season' Blake's 7 for a while, which relied on
this-- when Avon was captured during _Warlord_, he was drugged again, as
he was in _Terminal_. The end of Warlord and all of Blake was a
hallucination Servalan guided him through. She wanted to break his
spirit utterly...
The  thing is, that part of her plan succeeds. By the time the other
rebels rescue him, Avon is in complete withdrawal. He responds to
nothing-- he's completely in mental and emotional shock.

... this leads the others to track down a doctor who is crucial to the
plot, reveals a lot about Vila's background, actually makes Soolin
laugh, and ends up being the first friendly scientist not only to
survive meeting Blake's/Avon's rebels, but joins the crew.
Plus, when Avon finally snaps out of it, he actually hugs Vila-- and a
minute later they are both trying to pretend that he DIDN'T display any
emotion... but there's a change as well. Avon can never convince himself
that he doesn't care again.

--------------4478F187470D699D6E9BF201--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:17:16 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Message-ID: <19990313051719.16531.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

Nina said:

<I agree completely. To me, if they're not *specifically* excluded, then 
anything is possible. (And I'm getting fonder of the idea of Avon's 
Aunties by the day!!  <grin>)>

Tell me about it - a couple of nights ago night I *dreamed* up an story 
- which I can't recall, but it involved at least three aged and really 
scary aunts, (I do recall one that was a cross between Queen Mary and a 
demented fruit-bat) with a scheme involving 'recovering' an antique 
silver something-or-other from the President, and the raid on Central 
Control being complicated by a nasty dose of the Con-bug being discussed 
on the Other List going through the crew (Avon had laryngitis, which was 
nice). I *really* don't want to know what this all says about my  
subconscious...

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 21:52:20 PST
From: "Mikela A." <mikela72@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?]
Message-ID: <19990313055220.19248.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

For some reason, I can't get the quote to load here, but this is in 
response to mistral's story where "Blake" was all a hallucination 
created by Servalan in an attempt to break him.

Most of my best stories seem to come from dreams and (you guessed it) I 
had a dream about this one.  In it, Avon realized on his own that 
everything that was happening was fake and came out of it with Servalan 
standing there.  She took it calmly and told him that he might have 
caught on this time around, but it's only a matter of time before she 
breaks him.

Avon scoffs at the idea, "You've tried to beat me and break me before, 
Servalan. It's never worked and it never will. In the end, I always 
win."

"You and I have never fought before, Citizen Kerr Avon. The past four 
years you think you remember are from the machines. Your memories will 
be recreated as often as necessary to correct your behavior problems." 
She turns to his guards, "Begin again."

The great part in the dream was the utterly stunned look on Avon's face. 
He believed her. The one thing he'd pinned his pride on had never 
happened. Far from being the Federation's #1 criminal, he was only 
another minor cog in the reconditioning machinery and, as the guards 
took him away, he realized this scenario would be played over and over 
again till they broke him.
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 22:32:54 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?]
Message-ID: <36EA0696.F7B62817@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Mikela A. wrote:

> For some reason, I can't get the quote to load here, but this is in
> response to mistral's story where "Blake" was all a hallucination
> created by Servalan in an attempt to break him.

Sorry, no, I cannot take credit for Avona's work, I was only forwarding
it.Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 23:43:01 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <19990313074301.20456.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain

A couple of things Carol said, in reply to Mistral:

<Re Tarrant's speech in Sarcophagus...I agree that he was disappointed 
in Avon at that point and saw him as a less of a leader then he would 
have liked.>

Actually, that’s always been a point where I’m both annoyed with 
Tarrant, and sort of agree with him (which annoys me more). Tarrant 
seems to me to be trying to make Avon be the sort of strong leader he’s 
comfortable with, and either can’t/won’t (I’m inclined to the latter) 
see that with Avon it’s going to be more difficult than that. Yes, it 
*might* be better for them all if Avon was that sort of leader, but he 
isn’t and doesn’t see for one minute why he should have to do anything 
Tarrant’s way. (Only Blake ever really knew how to make Avon do things 
he didn’t want to do.) So Tarrant is pushing (and lets face his, his 
interpersonal skills aren’t any better at this stage than Avon’s, so he 
is fairly obnoxious about it). 

<But I think that was more a reflection of the differences in their 
personalities...(straightforward Tarrant hadn't yet realized that Avon 
was seldom straightforward...>

Yes, it did rather take him a while to suss that one out, didn’t it? <g>

<When Tarrant disagreed with Avon, he usually had another course of 
action to propose as an alternative.  Much of the time (not always - I 
appreciated Avon's plan to take over Star One) Avon's grumbling was on 
the order of "we shouldn't do this" without proposing an alternative.>

I disagree here. Avon’s arguments were usually less "we shouldn’t do 
this" as "Blake, I agree we’ll do it, but would you mind being a LITTLE 
more careful with my life, thank you????" He actually doesn’t dispute 
Blake’s plans as such all that often - in Shadow (where he seems to be 
less opposing the plan as of two minds about it, and deeply, justifiably 
sceptical of its outcome), Weapon (where they end up not going ahead 
with the planned raid after all), Horizon (where his alternative was 
‘let’s get out of their way’ - not a bad idea, actually) and Hostage 
(where he did too have an alternative, and spent half the episode trying 
to extricate Blake from the result).
And to be fair, he did have an alternative the whole time - ditch the 
revolution and let’s get rich. Problem was, when he COULD do that, as in 
Horizon, he had to give it away for pesky last-minute heroics.

<Avon is rescuing his teammates not to gain Blake's approval, but 
because he has to do it for himself.   When you come right down to it, 
*my* Avon doesn't care if anyone likes him, as long as he likes 
himself.>

Are we so sure he does? But yes, Avon doesn’t care WHO approves of him 
or not. He likes Blake (well, more than nearly everyone else, but that 
isn’t saying much, is it?) but even if he’s rescuing *him* he usually 
likes to have a good excuse (‘I’m as surprised as you are’/the infamous 
pursuit ships in Horizon/etc). I do think he does like having Blake’s 
friendship (the end of Trial - that hands-out gesture, so oddly unlike 
him - is one rather nice indicator of this) but without the strings of 
earning it (the fact that, in my opinion, he has earned it, doesn’t mean 
he WANTS to).

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Mar 1999 20:01:25 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Too much Adrenalin and Soma?
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0312190125-6bdRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Fri 12 Mar, Dunne, Martin Lydon - DUNML001 wrote:

> Why do the Space City badges exclude four crew members? Is there another badge
> featuring them, in honour of that rarest of slash fiction, Gan/Zen/Orac/Slave?

Because there wasn't any demand for them.  No point in producing badges that I
can't sell.  (I've got a few in stock of the existing designs.  Prices can be
found somewhere on the web page, probably under fan clubs/space city at a guess. 
They're only for sale to Space City members as they help us recognise one
another at conventions)

> Why do the two Obsidianites running up to meet the Federation troopers in
> "Volcano" appear and disappear as they move towards them? No comment is made of
> this in the story, does it really occur?

I've never been able to figure that one out and it really bugs me.

> 
> Do we accord the same certainty of canonical inclusion to all the television
> production? Would anyone say a later season would be less authoritative tan an
> early one? What if "Blake" was revealed to be a dream? Would anyone be happy
> with such a cheap overturning of such a story?

I regard all episodes as canon, but I do not regard the radio plays as such due
to the first one disagreeing too much with the broadcast series.  eg.  Slave
addresses everyone as 'master' instead of just Avon.

> 
> Does anyone else feel Terry Nation was drawing from some form of stereotyping
> in his scripts? NOT that there is anything wrong with that, if done in style.
> Or that character development was a sucession of cliches? As an example, the
> development of the Daleks featured a couple of major turnarounds, from
> misunderstood victims to merciless aggressors, from an allegory about the cold
> war to one of the second world war. Can anyone see such trends in Blakes 7?

Actually, I htink some of the character development rather successfully avoided
cliches.  They started as characters who could easily have been cliches and a
combination of good acting and Chris Boucher's work as script editor largely
prevented this.  Gan had the most difficulty avoiding the stereotype.

> 
> My question about the running order of season three included an assumption
> that Avon was the instigator in "Terminal", he was aware of the transmissions
> and chose to respond rather than responding immediately upon hearing them.
> This also presumes some kind of watershed event, such as "Warlord" was for
> season four, and so "Rumours of Death" seemed the obvious choice. Were either
> of these assumption fair, and why?

I think in season 3, Avon responded as soon as he heard the signals.  The fact
that they led him to a trap is undoubtedly one reason why he was so hesitant to
follow up leads on Blake in the 4th season.

Judith 

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:32:20 +0000
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Cult TV guests
Message-ID: <36EA3EB3.14EF47D8@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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For those interested, the guests so far announced for Cult TV in Weston
super Mare in September are:

Peter Davison
Simon MacCorkindale,
Michael Sheard,
Frazer Hines

They are hoping for more guests (even possibly a B7 one), though I think
Michael Sheard did appear in a B7 episode.
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson

"Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell"
Star Wars

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Mar 1999 10:51:33 +0000
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>, Space City <space-city@world.std.com>
Subject: [B7L] Redemption competitions
Message-ID: <36EA4333.CA1ACD52@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
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Some late compo results from the wall games at Redemption, coutesy of
Steve Kilbane

DOOR DECORATIONS.

The judges contemplated long and hard over this one, but in the end
decided
to award the prize to Caroline Freeman (114), for her novel approach of
actually entering a decorated door. For those who didn't see it, it was
a nice spaceships'n'stars mobile.

B5 CAPTION (to the drawing of Vir being zapped by Shadows):

"The other spiders scurried away, embarrassed by Boris's incontinence."

        -- Paula Robinson (8). Wins the Best First Name for a Shadow
Vessel.

B7 CAPTION (from Star One, Vila holding mines, talking to Avon):

"And so, on behalf of the rest of the crew, we thought we'd get you
something to say thank-you."

        -- Dragon (123). Wins Best Outtake From a Chris Boucher Script

LIMERICK

Blake took his ship to Star One
And rushed all around with his gun
Avon was there
But just didn't care
And Travis annoyed everyone.

        -- Sue (65). Wins Best Gratuitous Tarrant Insult.

HAIKUS

A Vorlon haiku
Could it be that such exists>
The answer - perhap.

        -- SJ (125). Best Self-Referential Irony.

Tommy never knew
Why spiders look like shadows
Until one ate him

        -- Laurie (126). Best Haiku That Should Have Been a 7x5 Story.

A fourteenth level
Psi, I don't start at shadows
Now, except my own.

        -- Shadow (137). Best B5 Theme.

Blake: "where is justice?
Will the blood of troopers lay
The Ghosts of the past?"

        -- Shadow (137). Best B7 Theme.

Writers block my arse
One blank page, so raise a glass
Poems grow in bars

        -- Matt Ryde (135). Most Appreciated By The Judges Who Were Up
'Til
        2AM On Thursday Writing Examples.

7x5 STORY

The glass cage slid upwards.
"We haven't much time," Soolin breathed, astonished. "The troopers will
be
back soon. Who are you, really?"
The figure stepped from the pedestal, her lips unmoving.
"My name is Cally."

        -- Shadow (137). Best Back From The Dead Character

NEVER-ENDING STORY
...goes to Caroline Freeman (114), for heroically trying to drag the B7
story back to anything even remotely resembling B7.

There was also "Help, those sf weirdos have taken over the hotel", but
no badge number, so no prize, alas. :-)

BEST ABUSE OF THE RULES
...goes to David Brain (133), for the following limerick:

Terry Nation was in a right flap
Dalek royalties showed a large gap
"I'll write a new show: Blake's Seven
...with dodgy special effects...
...and ludicrous storylines...
...and a ship made out of plastic bottles...
...and filming in gravel pits...
...and huge holes in the plot...
...and a box of flashing lights...
...and birds in tight leather outfits...
...and visible wires on spaceships...
...and cardboard scenery...
The beeb will be in heaven -
SF fans will watch any old crap."

BOOK QUIZ

There were 41 questions, which gives 82 possible points.

There were a grand total of two entries, with some interesting
approaches:

        - Mistaking Vonda McIntyre's fantasy "Dreamsnake" for
        John Carpenter's "Escape from New York".

        - Entering Larry Niven's "Ringworld" twice on the same sheet,
        for different opening lines. [ and an editoral comment: It is
        an absolute *bastard* to find a copy of Ringworld to get this
        opening line from. ]

        - Having Piers Anthony *anywhere*, for *any* answer. Almost took

        points off for that. :-)

        and writing "Oh, go on," beside it didn't help, Tom.

        - writing, "and Asimov's 'The stars like dust' for everything
else",
        thus giving a default answer for more than half the questions,
and
        therefore getting one extra point for the Asimov title.

Tom and Louise got 18 points, while David Brain got 24 points.

So, yes, I think it would have been nice to read them out in time. It
would also have been nice for me to have realised that I somehow had
to get the drazi points to the winners *before* the ceremony (this
finally dawned on me during breakfast on Sunday). In retrospect, I'd
have done things differently, but it was still fun.

steve

and finally, in keeping with its style...

LATEST ENTRY
...which arrived at 10.40am, while the judges were arranging the running

order for announcement of prizes which had already been awarded:

>From Ashford I fled on the train
With a bottle of Sainsbury's champagne
Redemption was great
But I mustn't be late
For that wonderful Vila in Spain.

        -- Chris Blenkarn

--
cheers
Steve Rogerson

Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

"Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell"
Star Wars


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End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #97
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