From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #95 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/95 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 95 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Are B7 fans Animals? (was Re: [B7L] Why Avon changed) Re: [B7L] Dream writers/directors/guest stars for B7 Fwd: [B7L] top ten requests and PBS Re: [B7L]Fannishness Re [B7L]: Mary Sues Re: [B7L]Fannishness Re: [B7L]Fannishness & Avon's relaltives Re: [B7L]Fannishness Re: [B7L]Fannishness Re: [B7L]Fannishness Re: [B7L]Fannishness Re: [B7L]Fannishness [B7L] Re: Another site of possible interest [B7L] New Series on SF Channel Fw: [B7L]Fannishness [B7L] Re: Evil Characters Re [B7L]Mary-Sue Re[B7L]Fannishness Re: Re [B7L]: Mary Sues Re: [B7L]Fannishness & Avon's relaltives [B7L] Assassin [B7L] Steven Pacey in play [B7L] Heat Re: [B7L]Fannishness [B7L] Dorset meet Re: [B7L] top ten requests ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 14:31:25 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: Neil Faulkner CC: lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Are B7 fans Animals? (was Re: [B7L] Why Avon changed) Message-ID: <36E5A13C.4D0A2C40@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Neil: > >When someone does not like being himself, psychologists use words like > >'dysfunctional'. > > As an animal of the human variety, I will choose to be amused by this rather > than offended. At least a > _philosophical_ flea can't be described as pusillanimous. I am *extremely* sorry if this came across as a personal dig at you. I was using 'himself' in the generic sense. _In_no_way_ did I intend to imply that you are dysfunctional. I consider it completely possible for thoughtful, rational people to disagree totally. In fact, I appreciated very much your thoughtful, stimulating reply, which I would like to discuss further, but I'm a bit short on time just now; but I couldn't let the idea pass that I had meant to insult you; that was most sincerely not my intent, and I apologize for the ineptitude of my phraseology. And the flea bit was aimed more at myself. Regards, Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 14:39:17 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Dream writers/directors/guest stars for B7 Message-ID: <19990309223918.12881.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Kiersten wrote: >Or alternatively, get Quast to sing the part. I had a friend in high >school who would rush home to see 'Playschool' just to see Philip >Quast singing 'Bananas in Pyjamas'. She thought he was incredibly >sexy (for his vocal abilities anyway). I'd laugh, but my head hurts (I received bad news about a relative last night, so anything that takes my mind off that for a moment is much appreciated). Avon actually singing? God help us all. Worse, Avon suggesting that they check on the position of the pursuit ships by looking through the round window, or insisting that they take Big Ted and Jemima with them when teleporting down to a planet. Oh dear. Now my head is begging for mercy. It doesn't take away the point about playing a potentially ruthless character, though, as Quast played Javert in the Australian production of Les Miserables (no, I haven't seen it), and that's a character prepared to pursue something to the very end by whatever means necessary, by all accounts. Regards Joanne Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:51:42 EST From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Fwd: [B7L] top ten requests and PBS Message-ID: <8174a777.36e5c21e@aol.com> Content-type: multipart/mixed; boundary="part0_921027106_boundary" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_921027106_boundary Content-ID: <0_921027106@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII In a message dated 99-03-09 19:32:53 EST, j_macqueen@hotmail.com writes: << Subj: Re: [B7L] top ten requests and PBS Date: 99-03-09 19:32:53 EST From: j_macqueen@hotmail.com (Joanne MacQueen) To: Tigerm1019@aol.com Tiger M wrote: > It took years of begging to get my local PBS station to show Dr. >Who and Blakes 7. When they finally did get the shows, they aired >them at very inconvenient times That sounds horribly familiar. The last time Doctor Who was screened in Australia (1993), the ABC was showing it at 4.30am, and they were looping from Colin Baker's first set of episodes to early Davison episodes and back again. This meant that I managed to see "Black Orchid" and "Earthshock" (I'd missed them the first time, and to my knowledge they hadn't been screened again before that time), but it also meant "Timelash" was screened twice in 12 months. I like "Timelash", but not quite that much. Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------- Tiger M wrote: > It took years of begging to get my local PBS station to show Dr. >Who and Blakes 7. When they finally did get the shows, they aired >them at very inconvenient times That sounds horribly familiar. The last time Doctor Who was screened in Australia (1993), the ABC was showing it at 4.30am, and they were looping from Colin Baker's first set of episodes to early Davison episodes and back again. This meant that I managed to see "Black Orchid" and "Earthshock" (I'd missed them the first time, and to my knowledge they hadn't been screened again before that time), but it also meant "Timelash" was screened twice in 12 months. I like "Timelash", <grin> but not quite that much. Regards Joanne Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (rly-zd03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.227]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v56.26) with SMTP; Tue, 09 Mar 1999 19:32:53 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f75.hotmail.com [207.82.250.181]) by rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id TAA17471 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:32:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 19381 invoked by uid 0); 10 Mar 1999 00:32:51 -0000 Message-ID: <19990310003251.19380.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 210.8.224.3 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Mar 1999 16:32:50 PST X-Originating-IP: [210.8.224.3] From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: Tigerm1019@aol.com Subject: Re: [B7L] top ten requests and PBS Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 16:32:50 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_150d599c_282afafd$5d73d94c" >> --part0_921027106_boundary Content-ID: <0_921027106@inet_out.mail.hotmail.com.2> Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (rly-zd03.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.227]) by air-zd02.mail.aol.com (v56.26) with SMTP; Tue, 09 Mar 1999 19:32:53 -0500 Received: from hotmail.com (f75.hotmail.com [207.82.250.181]) by rly-zd03.mx.aol.com (8.8.8/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id TAA17471 for ; Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:32:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 19381 invoked by uid 0); 10 Mar 1999 00:32:51 -0000 Message-ID: <19990310003251.19380.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 210.8.224.3 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Tue, 09 Mar 1999 16:32:50 PST X-Originating-IP: [210.8.224.3] From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: Tigerm1019@aol.com Subject: Re: [B7L] top ten requests and PBS Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 16:32:50 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Tiger M wrote: > It took years of begging to get my local PBS station to show Dr. >Who and Blakes 7. When they finally did get the shows, they aired >them at very inconvenient times That sounds horribly familiar. The last time Doctor Who was screened in Australia (1993), the ABC was showing it at 4.30am, and they were looping from Colin Baker's first set of episodes to early Davison episodes and back again. This meant that I managed to see "Black Orchid" and "Earthshock" (I'd missed them the first time, and to my knowledge they hadn't been screened again before that time), but it also meant "Timelash" was screened twice in 12 months. I like "Timelash", but not quite that much. Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------- Tiger M wrote:
> It took years of begging to get my local PBS station to show Dr. >Who and Blakes 7. When they finally did get the shows, they aired >them at very inconvenient times

That sounds horribly familiar. The last time Doctor Who was screened in Australia (1993), the ABC was showing it at 4.30am, and they were looping from Colin Baker's first set of episodes to early Davison episodes and back again. This meant that I managed to see "Black Orchid" and "Earthshock" (I'd missed them the first time, and to my knowledge they hadn't been screened again before that time), but it also meant "Timelash" was screened twice in 12 months. I like "Timelash", <grin> but not quite that much.

Regards
Joanne

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--part0_921027106_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:09:15 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness Message-ID: <19990310080915.B1299@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I was meaning to reply to this, but it wasn't until mistral complained of the silence that I was prompted to. On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 01:55:09PM -0000, Julie Horner wrote: > Sally said: > > character with an active role in the plot a "Mary-Sue", and therefore > Eeeeevil.> > > >Probably not if Avon then shoots her...and ENJOYS it. > > Or what about if she was a close female relative, e.g. mother, > sister, daughter - would that still count as a Mary-Sue? Unfortunately, "Avon's daughter" has been done so much that it is a cliche in itself. Whether people consider it to be a Mary-Sue or not, the concept generally starts with a disadvantage, IMHO. I think "Avon's sister" *would* get tarred as a Mary-Sue, simply because it is less justifiable than "Avon's brother", since we *know*, from canon, that Avon has a brother. And because this brother bit was revealed by the Liberator's self-defence mechanism, which induced the percievers to come closer to someone they cared about - Jenna saw her mother, Avon saw his brother, Blake saw his siblings - then, logically, if Avon had a sister, then he must either hate her, or not know of her existance. Avon hating his sister would be interesting, but one would have to write it very cleverly. Avon having a long-lost sister is such an unbelievable cliche that people would scream "Mary-Sue! Mary-Sue thinly disguised as a relative!" Avon's mother, on the other hand, would be so much older than him, that there is no way people would think of her as a Mary-Sue, since it isn't likely to be the fulfillment of a fantasy. Avon's mother is also not likely (from the brief glimpses I've seen of her in fanfic) to be an attractive/sympathetic character, so again, not likely to be labelled as a Mary-Sue. Hmmm, why doesn't someone write a story about Avon's feisty cantankarous Aunt? (-8 (Played by Dame Edith Evans...) Kathryn A. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 02:02:31 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re [B7L]: Mary Sues Message-ID: <03bb01be6a9a$38943f20$b21cac3e@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-7" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A question I meant to ask on this topic before things got a bit over-heated (and no, I am not trying to turn the temperature back up) - it seems that some readers at least are inclined to regard any OCF as a Mary Sue, but does this hold true when the writer is male? I can see why a female writer might want to write a Mary Sue, but most male writers wouldn't have that motivation? Or do they - is there a male MS equivalent? I freely admit that I've used original characters (male and female) as a personal mouthpiece in some of my stories, but in all such cases I was using them as a transient vehicle for the ideas I wanted to express, not as personal avatars. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:07:23 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness Message-ID: <36E5FE0A.687ACA37@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Avona wrote: > No, a relative of a character isn't a Mary Sue-- unless, perhaps, she > wins the heart oftwo other male characters who act out of line (Vila > challenges Tarrant to a duel over her, for instance) and she's perky and > perfect and overthrows the Federation all by her little ol' self. Oh, my dear, dear Avona! Thank you for your input. How I wish everyone thought like you. I would then not have to throw out my PGP, which, while not only a little on the cheery side (only one death and one maiming by the second chapter), also all unbeknownst to me as a horrible cliché, did, I thought, have a nice twist or two. Then again, might you not have a bit of a bias here, *Avona*? >thud< I really must practice this! ======================= Mistral of the Grimms -- "All I want now is to find a way of living forever."--Vila "The whole idea is an absurd fantasy"--Avon "Anything's possible when you're as insane as I obviously am."--Soolin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:11:53 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness & Avon's relaltives Message-ID: <19990310051154.10849.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Kathryn was inspired to write: To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness Message-ID: <19990310051139.21186.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain Kathryn was inspired to write: Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness Message-ID: <36E60260.473A2F17@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn Andersen wrote: > Unfortunately, "Avon's daughter" has been done so much that it is a > cliche in itself. Whether people consider it to be a Mary-Sue or not, > the concept generally starts with a disadvantage, IMHO. Well, I didn't *know* it was a cliche. I checked 'round the web and everything I could find seemed to indicate that a son had been done a lot, but a daughter only once or twice. Obviously my sources were wrong. Actually, Kathryn, one of them was your web page counting up the PGPs -- has a son once and a daughter twice. Of course I do realize that's just a partial, and done a long time ago. But I was thinking twice out of the 135 listings wasn't overkill. Ah, me. > I think > "Avon's sister" *would* get tarred as a Mary-Sue, simply because it > is less justifiable than "Avon's brother", since we *know*, from > canon, that Avon has a brother. And because this brother bit was > revealed by the Liberator's self-defence mechanism, which induced the > percievers to come closer to someone they cared about - Jenna saw her > mother, Avon saw his brother, Blake saw his siblings - then, > logically, if Avon had a sister, then he must either hate her, or not > know of her existance. Um, I think that's assuming facts not in evidence, isn't it? The Liberator chose *someone* they loved, not necessarily *everybody* they loved. If it showed Blake the siblings that he knew was dead, wouldn't that assumption mean that it would have had to show Avon Anna? Okay, how about we use the third stepuncle of Jenna's paternal grandmother's half-sister's nephew's adopted daughter? Is that too close kin? What fun we're having! Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:32:25 PST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness Message-ID: <19990310053227.24723.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_58aae29e_57400d32$2abf728e" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_58aae29e_57400d32$2abf728e Content-type: text/plain >Kathryn was inspired to write: >cantankarous Aunt? (-8 (Played by Dame Edith Evans...) >Oh yes! Oh yes! Or he could have been brought up by a whole set of >*formidable* aunts and great-aunts that he's scared to death of, like >in a Wodehouse novel...well, it would explain *his* >cantankerousness, wouldn't it? I'd like to see that. A Wodehouse/B7 crossover...nice. Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------=_NextPart_000_58aae29e_57400d32$2abf728e Content-type: text/html >Kathryn was inspired to write:
><Hmmm, why doesn't someone write a story about Avon's feisty
>cantankarous Aunt? (-8 (Played by Dame Edith Evans...)
>Oh yes! Oh yes! Or he could have been brought up by a whole set of
>*formidable* aunts and great-aunts that he's scared to death of, like >in a Wodehouse novel...well, it would explain *his* >cantankerousness, wouldn't it?

I'd like to see that. A Wodehouse/B7 crossover...nice.

Regards
Joanne

Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------=_NextPart_000_58aae29e_57400d32$2abf728e-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:33:32 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness Message-ID: <19990310193332.B2752@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, Mar 09, 1999 at 09:25:53PM -0800, mistral@ptinet.net wrote: > > Kathryn Andersen wrote: > > > Unfortunately, "Avon's daughter" has been done so much that it is a > > cliche in itself. Whether people consider it to be a Mary-Sue or not, > > the concept generally starts with a disadvantage, IMHO. > > Well, I didn't *know* it was a cliche. I checked 'round the web and > everything I could find seemed to indicate that a son had been done a lot, > but a daughter only once or twice. Obviously my sources were wrong. Actually, > Kathryn, one of them was your web page counting up the PGPs -- has a son once > and a daughter twice. Of course I do realize that's just a partial, and done > a long time ago. But I was thinking twice out of the 135 listings wasn't > overkill. Ah, me. Oh well, maybe I over-reacted. Perhaps I felt that the concept was a cliché anyway, so coming across it more than once was once too many. I mean, who was the mother? How old was Avon when she was concieved? How come he didn't know about her existance? Well, maybe I'm assuming "long-lost daughter"... but "long-lost-daughter" as much of a cliché as "long lost sister". > > I think > > "Avon's sister" *would* get tarred as a Mary-Sue, simply because it > > is less justifiable than "Avon's brother", since we *know*, from > > canon, that Avon has a brother. And because this brother bit was > > revealed by the Liberator's self-defence mechanism, which induced the > > percievers to come closer to someone they cared about - Jenna saw her > > mother, Avon saw his brother, Blake saw his siblings - then, > > logically, if Avon had a sister, then he must either hate her, or not > > know of her existance. > > Um, I think that's assuming facts not in evidence, isn't it? The Liberator > chose *someone* they loved, not necessarily *everybody* they loved. If it > showed Blake the siblings that he knew was dead, wouldn't that assumption > mean that it would have had to show Avon Anna? You're demolishing your own argument here. It did show Blake his siblings, and it didn't show Avon Anna. But yes, I'm using my "own cannon" here, to use Neil's term. I don't think it likely that Avon had a sister, simply because it's not as likely as his brother, whom we *do* know about. So I'm talking about *likelihood*, not facts. > Okay, how about we use the third stepuncle of Jenna's paternal grandmother's > half-sister's nephew's adopted daughter? Is that too close kin? No - I've got it! His niece! That way you don't have to account for Avon's movements, for her mother, or for why Avon didn't know about her. Because it's much easier for Avon's brother to have a daughter that Avon doesn't know about, than for Avon to have a daughter that Avon doesn't know about. Assuming, of course, that Avon doesn't know about her. Which I think is a reasonable assumption, considering that if it was generally known that Avon had a daughter, then she would have been used as bait in a trap by Servalan long since. Unless, of course, there were reasons why not. But they'd have to be pretty good reasons. Of course, (she said, thinking aloud) it would be possible that Avon would know about his daughter but managed to keep it a secret. But there would have to be reasons for that, too. How old is this woman meant to be? If Avon is 35 at the start of the series, and the series took, say, five years (which is a reasonable minimum, though others suggest longer), then if la femme is 20 years old, and the story takes place soon after the end of the series, then Avon was 20 when she was concieved -- and remained in ignorance of her for 15 years before he was arrested. And it was presumably before he met Anna, too. Well, anyway, I favour the niece theory. He could well have known of her existance, but only met her when she was a child, and dismissed her from his conciousness. I like that idea. > What fun we're having! Oh, good. (she said, Avonicly.) K.A. -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:12:41 +1100 From: Kathryn Andersen To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness Message-ID: <19990310191241.A2752@welkin.apana.org.au> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tue, Mar 09, 1999 at 09:32:25PM -0800, Joanne MacQueen wrote: > > I'd like to see that. A Wodehouse/B7 crossover...nice. It's been done. And very amusing it was, too. "Avon and the Enne Affair" in Chronicles #30. Apparently based on the short story, "Jeeves makes an Omlette". But that, of course, doesn't mean that someone couldn't do another one. As far as I can recall, no Aunts appeared in "Avon and the Enne Affair". (-8 -- _--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen / \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat \_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h" v | ------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:51:49 +0100 From: Murray Smith To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Re: Another site of possible interest Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Another site that fanfic writers might like to have a look at is 'www.io.com/~stefanj/www/worldbuild.html'. It's a link site to a number of web sites where people have constructed worlds with their own solar systems, geology, geography, and inhabitants. For anyone who wants a suitable world to set their story on but is bored by 'Earth-type' or 'Class M' planets, this is where you should go! Murray ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:03:15 EST From: AChevron@aol.com To: space-city@world.std.com Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] New Series on SF Channel Message-ID: Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I've just noted thru the TV Guide and Starlog that the Sci-Fi channel is getting ready to premiere a new, original series. The reason I point this out to the lists is that the premise of the series involves the protagonists on a liberated prison ship trying to evade the Peacekeepers, or bad guys. The brief character bios provided indicate this is not a clone of B7, but I'm curious as to the similarities that may appear. Rockne O'Bannon is involved with the series, which gives me some hope that the show will not be utter trash, at any rate. D. Rose ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:48:42 -0000 From: "Jenni -Alison" To: "Lysator List" Subject: Fw: [B7L]Fannishness Message-Id: <199903101215.NAA09861@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oops. Accidentally sent this just to Mistral. Sorry Mistral, you get two copies Mistral wrote: > Oh, my dear, dear Avona! Thank you for your input. How I wish everyone > thought like you. I would then not have to throw out my PGP, which, while > not only a little on the cheery side (only one death and one maiming by the > second chapter), also all unbeknownst to me as a horrible cliché, did, I > thought, have a nice twist or two. I think you should just write/finish the story as you've conceived it. As long as Avon's daughter isn't a super-character and it's well written with a good plot which justifies the existance of the daughter without stretching credibility or patience too far I really don't see the problem. Screw your courage to the sticking point and write, and post (or submit to a publisher). The couple of times I've written something I've found all the feedback really constructive. If you're really worried, ask for a couple of people to beta read it for you, and they can spot anything which detracts from the story you're trying to tell. Personally I've seen a couple of Mary Sues where I just had to stop reading, but I'd never condem the author for writing it anyway - I'm sure that they and others got pleasure out of it, and isn't that the whole point? Not everyone has the same taste, and I suspect not everyone would see a Mary Sue in the same stories. Jenni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:04:03 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Evil Characters Message-ID: <199903100804_MC2-6D73-99F4@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Helen Krummenacker wrote: >Avon is concerned with the practical realities. If you eliminate >the computer, innocent people will die (and we see proof of this >at the beginning of the episode). But we don't see any proof that Avon is concerned about this (it's Cally who worries about the "many people"). In the previous episode, he did query the policy, not mentioning the cost but suggesting they seize Star One in order to control the Federation. By the time they reach Star One, he's accepted Blake won't do that and doesn't argue against its destruction at all. When the issue is raised, he says they've already decided and should just get on with it because "he wants it to be over" ("it" apparently being his relationship with Blake). Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:50:21 -0000 From: "Julie Horner" To: Subject: Re [B7L]Mary-Sue Message-ID: <01be6afc$f0624ef0$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Neil said: >I can see why a female writer might >want to write a Mary Sue, but most male writers wouldn't have that >motivation? Or do they - is there a male MS equivalent? I have heard the term Marky-Sue but have never seen any examples. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:57:55 -0000 From: "Julie Horner" To: Subject: Re[B7L]Fannishness Message-ID: <01be6afd$ff1aa900$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn said: >How old is this woman meant to be? If Avon is 35 at the start of the >series, and the series took, say, five years (which is a reasonable >minimum, though others suggest longer), then if la femme is 20 years >old, and the story takes place soon after the end of the series, then >Avon was 20 when she was concieved -- and remained in ignorance of her >for 15 years before he was arrested. And it was presumably before he >met Anna, too. Well he could have had a student fling - it's quite conceivable (oops) that he wouldn't have known about the illegitimate result. Also has anyone considered the possibility of this being a long way PGP so the daughter was conceived in Avon's middle years. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:02:00 From: Penny Dreadful To: "lysator" Subject: Re: Re [B7L]: Mary Sues Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.19990310080200.2e07fa90@mail.geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Oh, look, some nice fresh toes upon which to trod! At 02:02 AM 3/10/99 -0000, Neil Faulkner wrote: >...it seems that >some readers at least are inclined to regard any OCF as a Mary Sue, but does >this hold true when the writer is male? I can see why a female writer might >want to write a Mary Sue, but most male writers wouldn't have that >motivation? Or do they - is there a male MS equivalent? Wouldn't a male writer's motivation here be the same as a female's -- that is, to vicariously get with a fictional character for whom he has the hots? Surely the males round these parts pine for Servalan and Soolin just as fervently and commonly as the females fancy Avon and Tarrant. Or is there a gender dichotomy at work, of which I am blissfully unaware? --Penny "Killfile Fodder" Dreadful ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:14:39 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness & Avon's relaltives Message-ID: <3ed5de52.36e68c5f@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/9/99 10:13:23 PM Mountain Standard Time, smanton@hotmail.com writes: > Kathryn was inspired to write: > > cantankarous Aunt? (-8 (Played by Dame Edith Evans...) Sally replied: > Oh yes! Oh yes! Or he could have been brought up by a whole set of > *formidable* aunts and great-aunts that he's scared to death of, like in > a Wodehouse novel...well, it would explain *his* cantankerousness, > wouldn't it? Yes! Including Diana Trent from Waiting for God - I dare say *she* could keep Avon in line...she'd probably box his ears if he annoyed her. And she'd have even less patience with Blake than Old Insufferable, too. Nina ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:43:15 +0000 (GMT) From: Una McCormack To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Assassin Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, during the 'Animals: A Misunderstood Classic?' panel at Redemption, people asked me 'Well, what *is* the worst episode of B7 then?' and I said, 'Assassin.' Cue hoots of derision and general contempt. Then I watched the Blooper Tape, and Jackie Pearce and Betty Marsden looked like they were having an enormous amount of fun cocking up their lines so I thought, 'OK, I'll give it another go...' All right then, 'Assassin' is *not* the worst episode of B7. I quite liked it. It jogged along very merrily and everyone seemed to be having a lot of fun. Only 2 small points: firstly, Nebrox's nappy; and, secondly, that *bloody* woman is an *atrocious* actress. I really wish she'd been just a *teeny weeny* bit better rather than just plain awful. I absolutely loved Soolin's line about some trauma making Piri a better artist. So, you win on this one. 'Assassin' is OK. I even watched 'Games', and decided that that probably wasn't the worst episode either, even if it was a little bit dull. Later in the week I'm going to watch 'Stardrive'. I'm thinking of watching back 'Power' as well, but don't know if I can bear it. Una ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:30:16 EST From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, space-city@world.std.com Subject: [B7L] Steven Pacey in play Message-ID: <1174f7e4.36e69e18@aol.com> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Diane Gies just learned that Steven is currently touring in a play. She asked me to rush the news out to B7 fans. Carol Mc -------------------- >From the Horizon website: Steven is currently touring with Harold Pinter's The Birthday Party along with Prunella Scales & Timothy West. Tour dates are: 8/13 March - Richmond Theatre, Richmond, Surrey - BO 0181 940 0088 15/27 March - Birmingham Rep, Birmingham - BO 0121 236 4455 30 March/03 April - Theatre Royal, Newcastle on Tyne, BO 0191 232 2061 12/17 April - Theatre Royal, Bath - BO 01225 448844 And then it is due to transfer to the Piccadilly Theatre, London some time after that. Further details will be posted on this shortly. The play: Macabre celebrations in a seaside boarding house. Stanley lodges in the seaside boarding house owned by Meg & Petey Boles. One day his peaceful, if mundane, existence is threatened by the arrival of mysterious strangers Goldberg & McCann. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:26:37 GMT0BST From: B WILLCOCK To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Heat Message-ID: <13A0EF65D30@POLI2.SWAN.AC.UK> For those who didn't know, Next weeks issue of `Heat' will feature Paul Darrow in the features page at the back (this week it had David Soul). The new Radio Play of B7 will be out in May, the CD can already be ordered from bookshops etc, it already has a Cat No. Also I notice that the book `Scorpio Attack' has also been re- released and appears to be just stlg3.50. To add to the current debate is Paul Darrow like Avon debate, you may want to look again at the interview Paul gave on the original tape of `Rumours of Death' when he was asked this very question. (Sadly this tape was a limited edition). He replied that the character was something he would have liked to be given the situation that Avon found himself in at the time. There was some of him in the character but an idealised version in many ways. It was interesting to hear his own interpretation. Bryn. > an associate producer who had worked with him previously who described > him as a 'tyrant'. > > I recently spoke to Michael 'Mr Bronson' Sheard, Section Leader Klegg > in Powerplay, who considers Paul to have 'let himself go', an opinion > which I'm inclined to agree with. He smokes continually, and almost > seems nervous. He has also gained quite a bit of weight, but is losing > it now. > > I was apprehensive about meeting Paul, based on what I'd heard about > him, as I had a portfolio of B7 artworks including a less than > flattering Avon characature. I did, after being personally introduced, > end up showing it to Paul and he was quite impressed and not at all > offended. I found him to be very polite and softly spoken, not as > bombastic as I had imagined and very, very genuine. Of course, he > still has Avon's voice and stance, but his pattern of speech is quite > different. He spent most of the evening slipping into Clint Eastwood > mode to make people laugh. He doesn't seen the type to step out of > line, and I didn't even witness him kiss, or make any other form of > contact with fans. He however, does not seem to avoid eye contact. > > > I've just been getting into the B7 audio tapes: Have listened to > > Sheelagh Well's tape of Paul with Jaqui called "Elements." My > > impression of him is as a very articulate, very intelligent person > > who takes himself and his work as an actor quite seriously. I also > > see a fascination with some bits of American Culture -- John Wayne > > and Westerns (not to mention Elvis!) which I as an American don't > > find particularly interesting or complex intellectually. > > I haven't heard this tape, but I have read the 'Paul Darrow writes..' > sections in the old Marvel B7 magazines. He seems to be quite proud of > his knowledge of film, which as a former film student I find rather > amusing. However, some of his assumptions and misinterpretations of B7 > made me gasp in horror, as did his apparent chauvanism. According to a > DWB interview he belongs to the old John Wayne school where men are > men and women are women! More worrying is the suggestion that the only > B7 woman he really approved of was Meegat! And he liked Power!!! If > you read The Eye, you'll find this POV hasn't changed. > > > Still, I was struck by both his penchant as a pretty humorous > > storyteller and by the calm authority he seems to exude in the tapes > > themselves. I mean, he just starts speaking quietly amid several > > other people's conversations in that wonderful voice grown even > > richer with age, and people shut up in mid-sentence and give him the > > floor. (I especially noticed this in relation to Gareth Thomas, who > > seemed hardly on the "Elements" tape to get a word in edgewise at > > various points.) > > He has got a lovely voice, and I really wish I could exude that type > of authority. That dosen't really mean that what he says is > always correct, but his sense of humour strikes me as rather perverse > and a bit sick at times, so I wouldn't put him past purposefully > winding people up. > > > So much for my impression. Still, my question points to this: The > > subtlety in which PD captures the pain and alienation, the emotional > > withdrawing, the well-perfected mask of coldness belied of course by > > the most intense ability to feel, to love others unconditionally and > > to the point of utter self- sacrifice.....how did PD manage to > > project all that without projecting aspects of himself as well? > > > > What do you all think? > > > > And while we're at it, what's the scoop on his book "Avon: A > > Terrible Aspect"? > > I have no interest in reading it, as I do not think that Paul ever > really understood Avon. (at that time) I know how odd that sounds, > but playing the character and being able to stand back and study the > character are completly different things. Paul's other novel Queen: > The Eye is so bad, I sent it to a friend for a birthday present. He > still hasn't read it!! > > > Vick > > > 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.' > Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake') > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:40:07 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII On Tue 09 Mar, Kathryn Andersen wrote: > > Or what about if she was a close female relative, e.g. mother, > > sister, daughter - would that still count as a Mary-Sue? > > Unfortunately, "Avon's daughter" has been done so much that it is a > cliche in itself. Whether people consider it to be a Mary-Sue or not, > the concept generally starts with a disadvantage, IMHO. None the less, you can get away with this one. One of my favourite fan stories falls into this category (it's by Mary Moulden in a Horizon zine) and I wrote one myself, Nova, which I still get occasional positive comments on even though it's some years since I wrote it and I now find I can write a lot better from a technical point of view. Essentially, even the most cliched plot can be got away with as long as you can find a fresh angle to it. Other plots that tend to make long-time zine readers wince are: anything set after or during 'Orbit', any story that explains how Avon met Anna Grant, stories that have Avon and Vila knowing one another as children, it wasn't Blake shot at Gauda Prime but the clone, and anything that requires Servalan to act like a total moron just to make sure that the characters can escape her clutches. Amazingly, there are still original stories being written with plots that are unique. If you want to use an idea that's been done a lot before, then you have to find a new twist on it or else be an exceptionally good writer. Even I wrote a post-Orbit story, but I have to admit it was dreadful (I was younger then - that's my excuse). If you can get that new twist, then you're okay. Another plot that is in danger of getting over-worked is Avon travelling back to our time. Many of these are pretty dreadful as Mary-Sueishness comes to the fore as loving fans help Avon resolve all his problems. However, there are exceptions - 'The Totally Imaginary Cheeseboard' is an absolute gem. I think it works because Avon does not fall in love with any of the fans, because it involves the cast and because it has wonderfully-written humour. The writers knew the people they were writing about and it shows. Avon meeting Jackie Pearce is a delight. Maybe the reason 'Morgan' worked is because there is zero romance and zero fans. SF exists in Morgan's world to the extent that he once watched an episode of Dr Who. Blake's 7 never happened, though Star Trek did and I must admit that I enjoyed Pugh taking the mickey out of Avon by addressing him as 'Captain Kirk'. Not that Avon understood the joke, of course. (Actually, I still find it fascinating that a book with no sex, no action, no Liberator/Scorpio and a rather bleak story-line focussing mainly on sheep-farming is turning out to be far and away the most popular zine that I've ever published.) I love the idea if Avon having a bevy of aunts. Now why am I thinking of 'Arsenic and Old Lace'... Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:51:23 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List cc: Space City Subject: [B7L] Dorset meet Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I'm having a gathering at my place on 13 March round about 2pm. We don't do much other than sit and chat and it's as much general SF/fantasy as B7 these days, but if anyone wants to come along, they're welcome. (I'll have a supply of zines for sale if anyone wants them) Just drop me a line and I can give you directions if needed. People are asked to bring along some kind of nibble to contribute to the general supply. I live between Poole and Wimborne if you're looking on a map. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:18:53 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] top ten requests Message-ID: <36E5D68D.453D7185@geocities.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison Page wrote: > > Somebody on another SF list tells me that the BBC has a top ten of most > requested repeats, and B7 is number 3. > > This is completely disgraceful! If we were a serious fandom it would be > number 1. > U.S. science fiction fantasy conventions don't have Blakes 7 programming. And that truly *is* discraceful. Any fen on this list up for planning to host a B7 panel at the upcoming NASFIC convention? It is the "worldcon lite" for those of us left behind in the States when WorldCon travels to Australia. NASFIC will be held in Los Angeles (Orange County) next Labor Day weekend. Pat P ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download.html -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #95 *************************************