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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 95
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Are B7 fans Animals? (was Re: [B7L] Why Avon changed)
Re: [B7L] Dream writers/directors/guest stars for B7
Fwd: [B7L] top ten requests and PBS
Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Re [B7L]: Mary Sues
Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Re: [B7L]Fannishness & Avon's relaltives
Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Re: [B7L]Fannishness
[B7L] Re: Another site of possible interest
[B7L] New Series on SF Channel
Fw: [B7L]Fannishness
[B7L] Re: Evil Characters
Re [B7L]Mary-Sue
Re[B7L]Fannishness
Re: Re [B7L]: Mary Sues
Re: [B7L]Fannishness & Avon's relaltives
[B7L] Assassin
[B7L] Steven Pacey in play
[B7L] Heat
Re: [B7L]Fannishness
[B7L] Dorset meet
Re: [B7L] top ten requests
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 14:31:25 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: Neil Faulkner <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
CC: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Are B7 fans Animals? (was Re: [B7L] Why Avon changed)
Message-ID: <36E5A13C.4D0A2C40@ptinet.net>
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Dear Neil:
> >When someone does not like being himself, psychologists use words like
> >'dysfunctional'.
>
> As an animal of the human variety, I will choose to be amused by this rather
> than offended. At least a
> _philosophical_ flea can't be described as pusillanimous.
I am *extremely* sorry if this came across as a personal dig at you. I was using
'himself' in the generic sense. _In_no_way_ did I intend to imply that you are
dysfunctional. I consider it completely possible for thoughtful, rational people
to disagree totally. In fact, I appreciated very much your thoughtful,
stimulating reply, which I would like to discuss further, but I'm a bit short on
time just now; but I couldn't let the idea pass that I had meant to insult you;
that was most sincerely not my intent, and I apologize for the ineptitude of my
phraseology. And the flea bit was aimed more at myself.
Regards,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 14:39:17 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Dream writers/directors/guest stars for B7
Message-ID: <19990309223918.12881.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Kiersten wrote:
>Or alternatively, get Quast to sing the part. I had a friend in high
>school who would rush home to see 'Playschool' just to see Philip
>Quast singing 'Bananas in Pyjamas'. She thought he was incredibly >sexy
(for his vocal abilities anyway).
I'd laugh, but my head hurts (I received bad news about a relative last
night, so anything that takes my mind off that for a moment is much
appreciated). Avon actually singing? God help us all. Worse, Avon
suggesting that they check on the position of the pursuit ships by
looking through the round window, or insisting that they take Big Ted
and Jemima with them when teleporting down to a planet. Oh dear. Now my
head is begging for mercy.
It doesn't take away the point about playing a potentially ruthless
character, though, as Quast played Javert in the Australian production
of Les Miserables (no, I haven't seen it), and that's a character
prepared to pursue something to the very end by whatever means
necessary, by all accounts.
Regards
Joanne
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 19:51:42 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: [B7L] top ten requests and PBS
Message-ID: <8174a777.36e5c21e@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-03-09 19:32:53 EST, j_macqueen@hotmail.com writes:
<< Subj: Re: [B7L] top ten requests and PBS
Date: 99-03-09 19:32:53 EST
From: j_macqueen@hotmail.com (Joanne MacQueen)
To: Tigerm1019@aol.com
Tiger M wrote:
> It took years of begging to get my local PBS station to show Dr. >Who
and Blakes 7. When they finally did get the shows, they aired >them at
very inconvenient times
That sounds horribly familiar. The last time Doctor Who was screened in
Australia (1993), the ABC was showing it at 4.30am, and they were
looping from Colin Baker's first set of episodes to early Davison
episodes and back again. This meant that I managed to see "Black Orchid"
and "Earthshock" (I'd missed them the first time, and to my knowledge
they hadn't been screened again before that time), but it also meant
"Timelash" was screened twice in 12 months. I like "Timelash", but not
quite that much.
Regards
Joanne
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------------
Tiger M wrote:
> It took years of begging to get my local PBS station to show Dr.
>Who and Blakes 7. When they finally did get the shows, they aired
>them at very inconvenient times
That sounds horribly familiar. The last time Doctor Who was screened in
Australia (1993), the ABC was showing it at 4.30am, and they were
looping from Colin Baker's first set of episodes to early Davison
episodes and back again. This meant that I managed to see "Black
Orchid" and "Earthshock" (I'd missed them the first time,
and to my knowledge they hadn't been screened again before that time),
but it also meant "Timelash" was screened twice in 12 months.
I like "Timelash", <grin> but not quite that much.
Regards
Joanne
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: Tigerm1019@aol.com
Subject: Re: [B7L] top ten requests and PBS
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 16:32:50 PST
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From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: Tigerm1019@aol.com
Subject: Re: [B7L] top ten requests and PBS
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 16:32:50 PST
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Tiger M wrote:
> It took years of begging to get my local PBS station to show Dr. >Who
and Blakes 7. When they finally did get the shows, they aired >them at
very inconvenient times
That sounds horribly familiar. The last time Doctor Who was screened in
Australia (1993), the ABC was showing it at 4.30am, and they were
looping from Colin Baker's first set of episodes to early Davison
episodes and back again. This meant that I managed to see "Black Orchid"
and "Earthshock" (I'd missed them the first time, and to my knowledge
they hadn't been screened again before that time), but it also meant
"Timelash" was screened twice in 12 months. I like "Timelash", but not
quite that much.
Regards
Joanne
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------------
<html><body bgcolor='#ffffff'>
Tiger M wrote:<br>
> It took years of begging to get my local PBS station to show Dr.
>Who and Blakes 7. When they finally did get the shows, they aired
>them at very inconvenient times <br>
<br>
That sounds horribly familiar. The last time Doctor Who was screened in
Australia (1993), the ABC was showing it at 4.30am, and they were
looping from Colin Baker's first set of episodes to early Davison
episodes and back again. This meant that I managed to see "Black
Orchid" and "Earthshock" (I'd missed them the first time,
and to my knowledge they hadn't been screened again before that time),
but it also meant "Timelash" was screened twice in 12 months.
I like "Timelash", <grin> but not quite that much.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Joanne<br>
<p><hr>Get Your Private, Free Email at <a
href=http://www.hotmail.com>http://www.hotmail.com</a><br></body></html>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:09:15 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Message-ID: <19990310080915.B1299@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
I was meaning to reply to this, but it wasn't until mistral complained
of the silence that I was prompted to.
On Mon, Mar 01, 1999 at 01:55:09PM -0000, Julie Horner wrote:
> Sally said:
>
> <I get the impression that many fan-fiction readers deem *any* original
> character with an active role in the plot a "Mary-Sue", and therefore
> Eeeeevil.>
>
> >Probably not if Avon then shoots her...and ENJOYS it.
>
> Or what about if she was a close female relative, e.g. mother,
> sister, daughter - would that still count as a Mary-Sue?
Unfortunately, "Avon's daughter" has been done so much that it is a
cliche in itself. Whether people consider it to be a Mary-Sue or not,
the concept generally starts with a disadvantage, IMHO. I think
"Avon's sister" *would* get tarred as a Mary-Sue, simply because it
is less justifiable than "Avon's brother", since we *know*, from
canon, that Avon has a brother. And because this brother bit was
revealed by the Liberator's self-defence mechanism, which induced the
percievers to come closer to someone they cared about - Jenna saw her
mother, Avon saw his brother, Blake saw his siblings - then,
logically, if Avon had a sister, then he must either hate her, or not
know of her existance.
Avon hating his sister would be interesting, but one would have to
write it very cleverly.
Avon having a long-lost sister is such an unbelievable cliche that
people would scream "Mary-Sue! Mary-Sue thinly disguised as a
relative!"
Avon's mother, on the other hand, would be so much older than him,
that there is no way people would think of her as a Mary-Sue, since it
isn't likely to be the fulfillment of a fantasy. Avon's mother is
also not likely (from the brief glimpses I've seen of her in fanfic)
to be an attractive/sympathetic character, so again, not likely to be
labelled as a Mary-Sue.
Hmmm, why doesn't someone write a story about Avon's feisty
cantankarous Aunt? (-8 (Played by Dame Edith Evans...)
Kathryn A.
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 02:02:31 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re [B7L]: Mary Sues
Message-ID: <03bb01be6a9a$38943f20$b21cac3e@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="utf-7"
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A question I meant to ask on this topic before things got a bit over-heated
(and no, I am not trying to turn the temperature back up) - it seems that
some readers at least are inclined to regard any OCF as a Mary Sue, but does
this hold true when the writer is male? I can see why a female writer might
want to write a Mary Sue, but most male writers wouldn't have that
motivation? Or do they - is there a male MS equivalent?
I freely admit that I've used original characters (male and female) as a
personal mouthpiece in some of my stories, but in all such cases I was using
them as a transient vehicle for the ideas I wanted to express, not as
personal avatars.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:07:23 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Message-ID: <36E5FE0A.687ACA37@ptinet.net>
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Avona wrote:
> No, a relative of a character isn't a Mary Sue-- unless, perhaps, she
> wins the heart oftwo other male characters who act out of line (Vila
> challenges Tarrant to a duel over her, for instance) and she's perky and
> perfect and overthrows the Federation all by her little ol' self.
Oh, my dear, dear Avona! Thank you for your input. How I wish everyone
thought like you. I would then not have to throw out my PGP, which, while
not only a little on the cheery side (only one death and one maiming by the
second chapter), also all unbeknownst to me as a horrible cliché, did, I
thought, have a nice twist or two.
Then again, might you not have a bit of a bias here, *Avona*? <smile>
<bounce> <bounce> <bounce> >thud< I really must practice this!
=======================
Mistral of the Grimms
--
"All I want now is to find a way of living forever."--Vila
"The whole idea is an absurd fantasy"--Avon
"Anything's possible when you're as insane as I obviously am."--Soolin
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:11:53 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness & Avon's relaltives
Message-ID: <19990310051154.10849.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Kathryn was inspired to write:
<Hmmm, why doesn't someone write a story about Avon's feisty
cantankarous Aunt? (-8 (Played by Dame Edith Evans...)
Oh yes! Oh yes! Or he could have been brought up by a whole set of
*formidable* aunts and great-aunts that he's scared to death of, like in
a Wodehouse novel...well, it would explain *his* cantankerousness,
wouldn't it?
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:11:38 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Message-ID: <19990310051139.21186.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Kathryn was inspired to write:
<Hmmm, why doesn't someone write a story about Avon's feisty
cantankarous Aunt? (-8 (Played by Dame Edith Evans...)
Oh yes! Oh yes! Or he could have been brought up by a whole set of
*formidable* aunts and great-aunts that he's scared to death of, like in
a Wodehouse novel...well, it would explain *his* cantankerousness,
wouldn't it?
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:25:53 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Message-ID: <36E60260.473A2F17@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> Unfortunately, "Avon's daughter" has been done so much that it is a
> cliche in itself. Whether people consider it to be a Mary-Sue or not,
> the concept generally starts with a disadvantage, IMHO.
<sniffle> Well, I didn't *know* it was a cliche. I checked 'round the web and
everything I could find seemed to indicate that a son had been done a lot,
but a daughter only once or twice. Obviously my sources were wrong. Actually,
Kathryn, one of them was your web page counting up the PGPs -- has a son once
and a daughter twice. Of course I do realize that's just a partial, and done
a long time ago. But I was thinking twice out of the 135 listings wasn't
overkill. Ah, me.
> I think
> "Avon's sister" *would* get tarred as a Mary-Sue, simply because it
> is less justifiable than "Avon's brother", since we *know*, from
> canon, that Avon has a brother. And because this brother bit was
> revealed by the Liberator's self-defence mechanism, which induced the
> percievers to come closer to someone they cared about - Jenna saw her
> mother, Avon saw his brother, Blake saw his siblings - then,
> logically, if Avon had a sister, then he must either hate her, or not
> know of her existance.
Um, I think that's assuming facts not in evidence, isn't it? The Liberator
chose *someone* they loved, not necessarily *everybody* they loved. If it
showed Blake the siblings that he knew was dead, wouldn't that assumption
mean that it would have had to show Avon Anna?
Okay, how about we use the third stepuncle of Jenna's paternal grandmother's
half-sister's nephew's adopted daughter? Is that too close kin? <smile>
What fun we're having!
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 21:32:25 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Message-ID: <19990310053227.24723.qmail@hotmail.com>
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>Kathryn was inspired to write:
>cantankarous Aunt? (-8 (Played by Dame Edith Evans...)
>Oh yes! Oh yes! Or he could have been brought up by a whole set of
>*formidable* aunts and great-aunts that he's scared to death of, like
>in a Wodehouse novel...well, it would explain *his* >cantankerousness,
wouldn't it?
I'd like to see that. A Wodehouse/B7 crossover...nice.
Regards
Joanne
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
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>Kathryn was inspired to write:<br>
><Hmmm, why doesn't someone write a story about Avon's feisty <br>
>cantankarous Aunt? (-8 (Played by Dame Edith Evans...)<br>
>Oh yes! Oh yes! Or he could have been brought up by a whole set of
<br>
>*formidable* aunts and great-aunts that he's scared to death of,
like >in a Wodehouse novel...well, it would explain *his*
>cantankerousness, wouldn't it? <br>
<br>
I'd like to see that. A Wodehouse/B7 crossover...nice.<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Joanne<br>
<p><hr>Get Your Private, Free Email at <a
href=http://www.hotmail.com>http://www.hotmail.com</a><br></body></html>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:33:32 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Message-ID: <19990310193332.B2752@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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On Tue, Mar 09, 1999 at 09:25:53PM -0800, mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>
> Kathryn Andersen wrote:
>
> > Unfortunately, "Avon's daughter" has been done so much that it is a
> > cliche in itself. Whether people consider it to be a Mary-Sue or not,
> > the concept generally starts with a disadvantage, IMHO.
>
> <sniffle> Well, I didn't *know* it was a cliche. I checked 'round the web and
> everything I could find seemed to indicate that a son had been done a lot,
> but a daughter only once or twice. Obviously my sources were wrong. Actually,
> Kathryn, one of them was your web page counting up the PGPs -- has a son once
> and a daughter twice. Of course I do realize that's just a partial, and done
> a long time ago. But I was thinking twice out of the 135 listings wasn't
> overkill. Ah, me.
Oh well, maybe I over-reacted. Perhaps I felt that the concept was a
cliché anyway, so coming across it more than once was once too many.
I mean, who was the mother? How old was Avon when she was concieved?
How come he didn't know about her existance?
Well, maybe I'm assuming "long-lost daughter"... but
"long-lost-daughter" as much of a cliché as "long lost sister".
> > I think
> > "Avon's sister" *would* get tarred as a Mary-Sue, simply because it
> > is less justifiable than "Avon's brother", since we *know*, from
> > canon, that Avon has a brother. And because this brother bit was
> > revealed by the Liberator's self-defence mechanism, which induced the
> > percievers to come closer to someone they cared about - Jenna saw her
> > mother, Avon saw his brother, Blake saw his siblings - then,
> > logically, if Avon had a sister, then he must either hate her, or not
> > know of her existance.
>
> Um, I think that's assuming facts not in evidence, isn't it? The Liberator
> chose *someone* they loved, not necessarily *everybody* they loved. If it
> showed Blake the siblings that he knew was dead, wouldn't that assumption
> mean that it would have had to show Avon Anna?
You're demolishing your own argument here. It did show Blake his
siblings, and it didn't show Avon Anna.
But yes, I'm using my "own cannon" here, to use Neil's term. I don't
think it likely that Avon had a sister, simply because it's not as
likely as his brother, whom we *do* know about.
So I'm talking about *likelihood*, not facts.
> Okay, how about we use the third stepuncle of Jenna's paternal grandmother's
> half-sister's nephew's adopted daughter? Is that too close kin? <smile>
No - I've got it! His niece! That way you don't have to account for
Avon's movements, for her mother, or for why Avon didn't know about
her. Because it's much easier for Avon's brother to have a daughter
that Avon doesn't know about, than for Avon to have a daughter that
Avon doesn't know about.
Assuming, of course, that Avon doesn't know about her.
Which I think is a reasonable assumption, considering that if it was
generally known that Avon had a daughter, then she would have been
used as bait in a trap by Servalan long since. Unless, of course,
there were reasons why not. But they'd have to be pretty good
reasons. Of course, (she said, thinking aloud) it would be possible
that Avon would know about his daughter but managed to keep it a
secret. But there would have to be reasons for that, too.
How old is this woman meant to be? If Avon is 35 at the start of the
series, and the series took, say, five years (which is a reasonable
minimum, though others suggest longer), then if la femme is 20 years
old, and the story takes place soon after the end of the series, then
Avon was 20 when she was concieved -- and remained in ignorance of her
for 15 years before he was arrested. And it was presumably before he
met Anna, too.
Well, anyway, I favour the niece theory. He could well have known of
her existance, but only met her when she was a child, and dismissed
her from his conciousness. I like that idea.
> What fun we're having!
Oh, good. (she said, Avonicly.)
K.A.
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 19:12:41 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Message-ID: <19990310191241.A2752@welkin.apana.org.au>
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On Tue, Mar 09, 1999 at 09:32:25PM -0800, Joanne MacQueen wrote:
>
> I'd like to see that. A Wodehouse/B7 crossover...nice.
It's been done. And very amusing it was, too.
"Avon and the Enne Affair" in Chronicles #30.
Apparently based on the short story, "Jeeves makes an Omlette".
But that, of course, doesn't mean that someone couldn't do another
one. As far as I can recall, no Aunts appeared in "Avon and the Enne
Affair".
(-8
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:51:49 +0100
From: Murray Smith <mjsmith@tcd.ie>
To: Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Another site of possible interest
Message-Id: <l03110700b30bee963932@[134.226.96.44]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Another site that fanfic writers might like to have a look at is
'www.io.com/~stefanj/www/worldbuild.html'. It's a link site to a number of
web sites where people have constructed worlds with their own solar
systems, geology, geography, and inhabitants. For anyone who wants a
suitable world to set their story on but is bored by 'Earth-type' or 'Class
M' planets, this is where you should go!
Murray
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 07:03:15 EST
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: space-city@world.std.com
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] New Series on SF Channel
Message-ID: <b512443c.36e65f83@aol.com>
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I've just noted thru the TV Guide and Starlog that the Sci-Fi channel is
getting ready to premiere a new, original series. The reason I point this out
to the lists is that the premise of the series involves the protagonists on a
liberated prison ship trying to evade the Peacekeepers, or bad guys.
The brief character bios provided indicate this is not a clone of B7, but
I'm curious as to the similarities that may appear. Rockne O'Bannon is
involved with the series, which gives me some hope that the show will not be
utter trash, at any rate. D. Rose
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:48:42 -0000
From: "Jenni -Alison" <Jenni-Alison@dial.pipex.com>
To: "Lysator List" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Fw: [B7L]Fannishness
Message-Id: <199903101215.NAA09861@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
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Oops. Accidentally sent this just to Mistral. Sorry Mistral, you get two
copies
<smacks - bad Jenni>
Mistral wrote:
> Oh, my dear, dear Avona! Thank you for your input. How I wish everyone
> thought like you. I would then not have to throw out my PGP, which, while
> not only a little on the cheery side (only one death and one maiming by
the
> second chapter), also all unbeknownst to me as a horrible cliché, did, I
> thought, have a nice twist or two.
I think you should just write/finish the story as you've conceived it. As
long as Avon's daughter isn't a super-character and it's well written with
a good plot which justifies the existance of the daughter without
stretching credibility or patience too far I really don't see the problem.
Screw your courage to the sticking point and write, and post (or submit
to a publisher). The couple of times I've written something I've found all
the feedback really constructive. If you're really worried, ask for a
couple of people to beta read it for you, and they can spot anything which
detracts from the story you're trying to tell.
Personally I've seen a couple of Mary Sues where I just had to stop
reading, but I'd never condem the author for writing it anyway - I'm sure
that they and others got pleasure out of it, and isn't that the whole
point? Not everyone has the same taste, and I suspect not everyone would
see a Mary Sue in the same stories.
Jenni
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:04:03 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Evil Characters
Message-ID: <199903100804_MC2-6D73-99F4@compuserve.com>
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Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>Avon is concerned with the practical realities. If you eliminate
>the computer, innocent people will die (and we see proof of this
>at the beginning of the episode).
But we don't see any proof that Avon is concerned about this (it's Cally
who worries about the "many people"). In the previous episode, he did
query the policy, not mentioning the cost but suggesting they seize Star
One in order to control the Federation. By the time they reach Star One,
he's accepted Blake won't do that and doesn't argue against its destruction
at all. When the issue is raised, he says they've already decided and
should just get on with it because "he wants it to be over" ("it"
apparently being his relationship with Blake).
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:50:21 -0000
From: "Julie Horner" <julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re [B7L]Mary-Sue
Message-ID: <01be6afc$f0624ef0$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet>
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Neil said:
>I can see why a female writer might
>want to write a Mary Sue, but most male writers wouldn't have that
>motivation? Or do they - is there a male MS equivalent?
I have heard the term Marky-Sue but have never seen any examples.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 13:57:55 -0000
From: "Julie Horner" <julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re[B7L]Fannishness
Message-ID: <01be6afd$ff1aa900$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet>
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Kathryn said:
>How old is this woman meant to be? If Avon is 35 at the start of the
>series, and the series took, say, five years (which is a reasonable
>minimum, though others suggest longer), then if la femme is 20 years
>old, and the story takes place soon after the end of the series, then
>Avon was 20 when she was concieved -- and remained in ignorance of her
>for 15 years before he was arrested. And it was presumably before he
>met Anna, too.
Well he could have had a student fling - it's quite conceivable (oops)
that he wouldn't have known about the illegitimate result.
Also has anyone considered the possibility of this being a long way
PGP so the daughter was conceived in Avon's middle years.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 08:02:00
From: Penny Dreadful <egomoo@geocities.com>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re [B7L]: Mary Sues
Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.19990310080200.2e07fa90@mail.geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Oh, look, some nice fresh toes upon which to trod!
At 02:02 AM 3/10/99 -0000, Neil Faulkner wrote:
>...it seems that
>some readers at least are inclined to regard any OCF as a Mary Sue, but does
>this hold true when the writer is male? I can see why a female writer might
>want to write a Mary Sue, but most male writers wouldn't have that
>motivation? Or do they - is there a male MS equivalent?
Wouldn't a male writer's motivation here be the same as a female's -- that
is, to vicariously get with a fictional character for whom he has the hots?
Surely the males round these parts pine for Servalan and Soolin just as
fervently and commonly as the females fancy Avon and Tarrant.
Or is there a gender dichotomy at work, of which I am blissfully unaware?
--Penny "Killfile Fodder" Dreadful
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:14:39 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness & Avon's relaltives
Message-ID: <3ed5de52.36e68c5f@aol.com>
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In a message dated 3/9/99 10:13:23 PM Mountain Standard Time,
smanton@hotmail.com writes:
> Kathryn was inspired to write:
>
> <Hmmm, why doesn't someone write a story about Avon's feisty
> cantankarous Aunt? (-8 (Played by Dame Edith Evans...)
Sally replied:
> Oh yes! Oh yes! Or he could have been brought up by a whole set of
> *formidable* aunts and great-aunts that he's scared to death of, like in
> a Wodehouse novel...well, it would explain *his* cantankerousness,
> wouldn't it?
Yes! Including Diana Trent from Waiting for God - I dare say *she* could keep
Avon in line...she'd probably box his ears if he annoyed her. And she'd have
even less patience with Blake than Old Insufferable, too.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 16:43:15 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990310163411.9535A-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Well, during the 'Animals: A Misunderstood Classic?' panel at Redemption,
people asked me 'Well, what *is* the worst episode of B7 then?' and I
said, 'Assassin.' Cue hoots of derision and general contempt.
Then I watched the Blooper Tape, and Jackie Pearce and Betty Marsden
looked like they were having an enormous amount of fun cocking up their
lines so I thought, 'OK, I'll give it another go...'
All right then, 'Assassin' is *not* the worst episode of B7. I quite liked
it. It jogged along very merrily and everyone seemed to be having a lot of
fun. Only 2 small points: firstly, Nebrox's nappy; and, secondly, that
*bloody* woman is an *atrocious* actress. I really wish she'd been just a
*teeny weeny* bit better rather than just plain awful. I absolutely loved
Soolin's line about some trauma making Piri a better artist.
So, you win on this one. 'Assassin' is OK. I even watched 'Games', and
decided that that probably wasn't the worst episode either, even if it was
a little bit dull.
Later in the week I'm going to watch 'Stardrive'. I'm thinking of
watching back 'Power' as well, but don't know if I can bear it.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 11:30:16 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, space-city@world.std.com
Subject: [B7L] Steven Pacey in play
Message-ID: <1174f7e4.36e69e18@aol.com>
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Diane Gies just learned that Steven is currently touring in a play. She asked
me to rush the news out to B7 fans.
Carol Mc
--------------------
>From the Horizon website:
Steven is currently touring with Harold Pinter's The Birthday Party along with
Prunella Scales & Timothy West. Tour dates are:
8/13 March - Richmond Theatre, Richmond, Surrey - BO 0181 940 0088
15/27 March - Birmingham Rep, Birmingham - BO 0121 236 4455
30 March/03 April - Theatre Royal, Newcastle on Tyne, BO 0191 232 2061
12/17 April - Theatre Royal, Bath - BO 01225 448844
And then it is due to transfer to the Piccadilly Theatre, London some time
after that. Further details will be posted on this shortly.
The play: Macabre celebrations in a seaside boarding house. Stanley lodges in
the seaside boarding house owned by Meg & Petey Boles. One day his peaceful,
if mundane, existence is threatened by the arrival of mysterious strangers
Goldberg & McCann.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 18:26:37 GMT0BST
From: B WILLCOCK <pl6b2bww@swansea.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Heat
Message-ID: <13A0EF65D30@POLI2.SWAN.AC.UK>
For those who didn't know,
Next weeks issue of `Heat' will feature Paul Darrow in the
features page at the back (this week it had David Soul).
The new Radio Play of B7 will be out in May, the CD can already
be ordered from bookshops etc, it already has a Cat No.
Also I notice that the book `Scorpio Attack' has also been re-
released and appears to be just stlg3.50.
To add to the current debate is Paul Darrow like Avon debate, you
may want to look again at the interview Paul gave on the original
tape of `Rumours of Death' when he was asked this very question.
(Sadly this tape was a limited edition). He replied that the
character was something he would have liked to be given the situation
that Avon found himself in at the time. There was some of him in the
character but an idealised version in many ways.
It was interesting to hear his own interpretation.
Bryn.
> an associate producer who had worked with him previously who described
> him as a 'tyrant'.
>
> I recently spoke to Michael 'Mr Bronson' Sheard, Section Leader Klegg
> in Powerplay, who considers Paul to have 'let himself go', an opinion
> which I'm inclined to agree with. He smokes continually, and almost
> seems nervous. He has also gained quite a bit of weight, but is losing
> it now.
>
> I was apprehensive about meeting Paul, based on what I'd heard about
> him, as I had a portfolio of B7 artworks including a less than
> flattering Avon characature. I did, after being personally introduced,
> end up showing it to Paul and he was quite impressed and not at all
> offended. I found him to be very polite and softly spoken, not as
> bombastic as I had imagined and very, very genuine. Of course, he
> still has Avon's voice and stance, but his pattern of speech is quite
> different. He spent most of the evening slipping into Clint Eastwood
> mode to make people laugh. He doesn't seen the type to step out of
> line, and I didn't even witness him kiss, or make any other form of
> contact with fans. He however, does not seem to avoid eye contact.
>
> > I've just been getting into the B7 audio tapes: Have listened to
> > Sheelagh Well's tape of Paul with Jaqui called "Elements." My
> > impression of him is as a very articulate, very intelligent person
> > who takes himself and his work as an actor quite seriously. I also
> > see a fascination with some bits of American Culture -- John Wayne
> > and Westerns (not to mention Elvis!) which I as an American don't
> > find particularly interesting or complex intellectually.
>
> I haven't heard this tape, but I have read the 'Paul Darrow writes..'
> sections in the old Marvel B7 magazines. He seems to be quite proud of
> his knowledge of film, which as a former film student I find rather
> amusing. However, some of his assumptions and misinterpretations of B7
> made me gasp in horror, as did his apparent chauvanism. According to a
> DWB interview he belongs to the old John Wayne school where men are
> men and women are women! More worrying is the suggestion that the only
> B7 woman he really approved of was Meegat! And he liked Power!!! If
> you read The Eye, you'll find this POV hasn't changed.
>
> > Still, I was struck by both his penchant as a pretty humorous
> > storyteller and by the calm authority he seems to exude in the tapes
> > themselves. I mean, he just starts speaking quietly amid several
> > other people's conversations in that wonderful voice grown even
> > richer with age, and people shut up in mid-sentence and give him the
> > floor. (I especially noticed this in relation to Gareth Thomas, who
> > seemed hardly on the "Elements" tape to get a word in edgewise at
> > various points.)
>
> He has got a lovely voice, and I really wish I could exude that type
> of authority. That dosen't really mean that what he says is
> always correct, but his sense of humour strikes me as rather perverse
> and a bit sick at times, so I wouldn't put him past purposefully
> winding people up.
>
> > So much for my impression. Still, my question points to this: The
> > subtlety in which PD captures the pain and alienation, the emotional
> > withdrawing, the well-perfected mask of coldness belied of course by
> > the most intense ability to feel, to love others unconditionally and
> > to the point of utter self- sacrifice.....how did PD manage to
> > project all that without projecting aspects of himself as well?
> >
> > What do you all think?
> >
> > And while we're at it, what's the scoop on his book "Avon: A
> > Terrible Aspect"?
>
> I have no interest in reading it, as I do not think that Paul ever
> really understood Avon. (at that time) I know how odd that sounds,
> but playing the character and being able to stand back and study the
> character are completly different things. Paul's other novel Queen:
> The Eye is so bad, I sent it to a friend for a birthday present. He
> still hasn't read it!!
>
>
> Vick
>
>
> 'Idealism is a wonderful thing, all you really need is someone rational to put it to proper use.'
> Kerr Avon. (B7 ep 52 'Blake')
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:40:07 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Fannishness
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0310094007-d07Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Tue 09 Mar, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> > Or what about if she was a close female relative, e.g. mother,
> > sister, daughter - would that still count as a Mary-Sue?
>
> Unfortunately, "Avon's daughter" has been done so much that it is a
> cliche in itself. Whether people consider it to be a Mary-Sue or not,
> the concept generally starts with a disadvantage, IMHO.
None the less, you can get away with this one. One of my favourite fan stories
falls into this category (it's by Mary Moulden in a Horizon zine) and I wrote
one myself, Nova, which I still get occasional positive comments on even though
it's some years since I wrote it and I now find I can write a lot better from a
technical point of view.
Essentially, even the most cliched plot can be got away with as long as you can
find a fresh angle to it.
Other plots that tend to make long-time zine readers wince are: anything set
after or during 'Orbit', any story that explains how Avon met Anna Grant,
stories that have Avon and Vila knowing one another as children, it wasn't Blake
shot at Gauda Prime but the clone, and anything that requires Servalan to act
like a total moron just to make sure that the characters can escape her
clutches.
Amazingly, there are still original stories being written with plots that are
unique. If you want to use an idea that's been done a lot before, then you have
to find a new twist on it or else be an exceptionally good writer. Even I wrote
a post-Orbit story, but I have to admit it was dreadful (I was younger then -
that's my excuse).
If you can get that new twist, then you're okay. Another plot that is in danger
of getting over-worked is Avon travelling back to our time. Many of these are
pretty dreadful as Mary-Sueishness comes to the fore as loving fans help Avon
resolve all his problems. However, there are exceptions - 'The Totally
Imaginary Cheeseboard' is an absolute gem. I think it works because Avon does
not fall in love with any of the fans, because it involves the cast and because
it has wonderfully-written humour. The writers knew the people they were
writing about and it shows. Avon meeting Jackie Pearce is a delight.
Maybe the reason 'Morgan' worked is because there is zero romance and zero fans.
SF exists in Morgan's world to the extent that he once watched an episode of Dr
Who. Blake's 7 never happened, though Star Trek did and I must admit that I
enjoyed Pugh taking the mickey out of Avon by addressing him as 'Captain Kirk'.
Not that Avon understood the joke, of course. (Actually, I still find it
fascinating that a book with no sex, no action, no Liberator/Scorpio and a
rather bleak story-line focussing mainly on sheep-farming is turning out to be
far and away the most popular zine that I've ever published.)
I love the idea if Avon having a bevy of aunts. Now why am I thinking of
'Arsenic and Old Lace'...
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1999 10:51:23 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Space City <Space-city@world.std.com>
Subject: [B7L] Dorset meet
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0310095123-06cRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
I'm having a gathering at my place on 13 March round about 2pm. We don't do
much other than sit and chat and it's as much general SF/fantasy as B7 these
days, but if anyone wants to come along, they're welcome. (I'll have a supply
of zines for sale if anyone wants them)
Just drop me a line and I can give you directions if needed. People are asked
to bring along some kind of nibble to contribute to the general supply. I live
between Poole and Wimborne if you're looking on a map.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:18:53 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] top ten requests
Message-ID: <36E5D68D.453D7185@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Alison Page wrote:
>
> Somebody on another SF list tells me that the BBC has a top ten of most
> requested repeats, and B7 is number 3.
>
> This is completely disgraceful! If we were a serious fandom it would be
> number 1.
>
U.S. science fiction fantasy conventions don't have Blakes 7
programming. And that truly *is* discraceful. Any fen on this list up
for planning to host a B7 panel at the upcoming NASFIC convention? It is
the "worldcon lite" for those of us left behind in the States when
WorldCon travels to Australia. NASFIC will be held in Los Angeles
(Orange County) next Labor Day weekend.
Pat P
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End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #95
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