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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 83
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast.
Re: [B7L] .
Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast -- and a heck of a troll!
[B7L] The new set of stats
[B7L]Allure, Power Games and Avon the sex beast
Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games and Avon the sex beast
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
[B7L] Total confusion...
Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast
Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast
Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
Re: [B7L] .
Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
[B7L] Myers-Briggs
[B7L] Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast.
[B7L] everything
Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (New Definitions!)
Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long)
Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast -- and a heck of a tro...
Re: [B7L] Re: Avon: J or P?
Re: [B7L] Career change?
Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's
Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 06:38:25 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast.
Message-ID: <36D56060.AFEACD10@ptinet.net>
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VJC wrote:
> I can always tell the British fans. They're the only people who
> actually blame the script writer, rather than taking everything
> as-seen as *fact*.
> I can't stand Ben Steed scripts and I don't like Tanith Lee much
> either. Let's stop judging characters based on this junk and get back
> to Myer's Briggs.
Oh dear, Vick. From my point of view, you are totally missing the purpose
of the sort of discussion going on in this thread. If you don't assume a
canonical explanation exists, you aren't playing the _game_ ! :D I think
the tone on both of Tanith Lee's scripts is wrong in places. That may be
her fault or the director's or the editor or whoever's. That doesn't
obviate me of the need to justify it canonically so that my personal 'B7
universe' hangs together by at least some minimal shreds of logic.
Calling Ben Steed a misogynist and running away is cheating, IMHO, and
almost everybody seems to do it. The point isn't what he personally
thinks of women, it's whether or not his scripts fit into the B7 universe
and how you make them fit. Surely there's room for both threads. Russ
likes characters and issues, you like MBTI. I happen to like both, and
there are surely some people who like neither. Isn't that part of what
this is about? Finding people who want to talk about the same things we
do?
Okay, that's gonna cost me three centipedes and a spider :D
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:09:41 PST
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] .
Message-ID: <19990225150941.3964.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
>What Myers Briggs type are you?
>
>Vick
O Negative.
-- Rob
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:39:44 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast -- and a heck of a troll!
Message-ID: <36D56EC0.5534995A@ptinet.net>
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Julie Horner wrote:
> Russ replying to mistral
>
> >>Well, I've just done one from each, but if you want a replacement for
> >>Power, I personally think that his scenes with Vena in Headhunter
> scorch the
> >>film,
>
> >Eh? Vena is 'Muller's woman' isn't she? Have I been making coffee
> >during crucial scenes again? I don't recall anything remotely
> >scorching.
>
> All I recall is a knowing snigger when she said that her relationship
> with Muller is purely recreational. If he does flirt at all in this
> scene I
> think it is just to be polite. It doesn't scorch to me and I am sure I
> would notice any heat generated by this Alpha. I have heard people
> say that he looks embarassed when she makes a come-on to him
> but again, I can't say I noticed that either.
Heh, heh, heh. I knew I was going to get some flack on this. I am _not_
imagining things. I prefer to think of Avon as a role model, rather than a
romantic object, but I have difficulty not softening up a bit when Avon and
Vena are on screen together. IMO, he is more charming *and* attractive here
than in any other series D ep, and many eps from other series as well --
said 'snigger' (which I interpret quite differently) notwithstanding.
Go watch it again, and see how he almost never takes his eyes off of her.
Notice how inadequate he appears to feel because he doesn't know how to
comfort her. Look at how he takes the risk of going up to Scorpio - pretty
much just in order to make her feel better - he didn't appear to think
Muller had much chance of still being alive. Think about how he pulled a
gun on Muller to protect her -- the nasty fellow we usually see would
rarely make himself a target for *anybody* else, and I don't remember him
*ever* doing it for anybody who wasn't part of the crew (of course I've
probably missed one -- oh, yes, Nina in 'Power'-- but that's probably
dangerous to bring up, and also, he was probably deliberately challenging
GunnSar's authority, so let's pretend that I didn't).
Paul Darrow was sometimes quite over the top, I'll admit-- but he could
also be quite subtle on occasion, and IMHO this is one. The understated
nature of this particular part of the performance gives it a touching
sincerity. My interpretation is that Avon had finally run across a woman he
*liked*, as opposed to wanted to play sexual power games with.
FWIW, which isn't much, only MHO, (actually with no centipede feet this
time, I will gladly stand on the opposite side from everybody on this one,
if I must), I think Avon would have quite liked to have a 'recreational
relationship' with Vena. I know some fen interpret the conversation in
'Rumors' differently, but I think the only reasonable interpretation of the
dialogue there is that Anna was married to Chesku during her affair with
Avon, and Avon was perfectly well aware of it. I also wonder if any other
interpretation is not strictly a matter of some people wanting to make Avon
out to be nicer than he really was. So, I don't think that her being
Muller's woman was necessarily *much* of an obstacle. I do think that Avon,
with his trust issues, would care about commitment, but I don't think he
cares a bit about convention. You could easily interpret the look (called a
*snigger* above) that he gives Vena to mean that he has just realized that
she *may* in fact be available to him.
You may now take pot shots at me. I shall return.
Mistral
--
"Reality is a dangerous concept. Each one of us interprets it in a slightly
different way."
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 07:52:34 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
CC: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] The new set of stats
Message-ID: <36D571C1.15E0DBB4@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Thank you for sending the stats. Although I am rather sickened by having
to scroll past statistics for the black queen, I am quite pleased with
the stats for Vila. I do, however, wonder two things: doesn't this
particular system have any kind of concealment skill? and how does a 16
dexterity, an 18 sleight of hand, and a 23 lockpicking all fit together?
it seems out of synch to me; then again, I am happy to see you have
given him bard skills. :)
I shall look at the others when I have more time, but I doubt I shall
find anything to complain about, more's the pity.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:46:33 +0000
From: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
To: Julie Horner <julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com>
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L]Allure, Power Games and Avon the sex beast
Message-ID: <7xEKtDAZBX12Ewcd@wriding.demon.co.uk>
In message <01be60ca$9b744060$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet>, Julie
Horner <julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com> writes
>Russ replying to mistral
>
>>Eh? Vena is 'Muller's woman' isn't she? Have I been making coffee
>>during crucial scenes again? I don't recall anything remotely
>>scorching.
>
>All I recall is a knowing snigger when she said that her relationship
>with Muller is purely recreational.
Whereas Blake would have looked politely neutral, Vila would have
made a pass and Gan would have broken out the medipack and
dabbed her with something soothing.
> If he does flirt at all in this
>scene I
>think it is just to be polite.
He's never gone out of his way to observe the social niceties with
anyone before. Perhaps he was trying to make Soolin jealous :)
> It doesn't scorch to me and I am sure I
>would notice any heat generated by this Alpha. I have heard people
>say that he looks embarassed when she makes a come-on to him
>but again, I can't say I noticed that either.
>
I think Avon might well be embarrassed if a woman he'd just met and
hadn't yet taken the measure of came on to him. I haven't watched
Headhunter for years though, so I can't remember the by-play here
with any accuracy.
>
>>>And as for throwing his masculinity around, he tries it with
>>>Jenna in ep three. Don't tell me you don't see it; I won't believe
>you.
>
>>No, I recognise that okay. And Jenna sees it exactly for what it is.
>He's
>>not interested in her as a woman, at least not specifically, he's
>simply
>>attempting to intimidate her with his masculinity.
>
>Not interested? What about that look in "Trial" when Jenna tells him
>to "Suggest something".
Umm. Remind me of the context.
> He might not have an undying passion for
>her but I think he would be interested in a "recreational"
>relationship.
>
Well him and every other male (except Blake, natch).
--
Russ Massey
Sirius Games, 161 Montague Street, Worthing,
West Sussex BN11 3BZ
(01903 217334) http://www.wriding.demon.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:14:20 -0000
From: "Julie Horner" <julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games and Avon the sex beast
Message-ID: <01be60e2$481bcf10$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Russ replying to J Horner:
>> If he does flirt at all in this scene I think it is just to be
polite.
>
>He's never gone out of his way to observe the social niceties with
>anyone before. Perhaps he was trying to make Soolin jealous :)
>
<g>
But he wanted to have Muller on his side so he might think it
politically expedient to be "polite" to Mrs Muller. At the same time
it would hardly make a good impression if Muller came home
to find himself cuckolded so I don't think there would be any attempted
seduction going on. Avon is just trying to be sufficiently charming to
keep Vena happy but certainly not enough to cause any embarassment.
>>Not interested? What about that look in "Trial" when Jenna tells him
>>to "Suggest something".
>
>Umm. Remind me of the context.
I think I mean "Trial". Blake has gone down to the surface and the
others are wondering what to do. I can't remember what Avon says
to Jenna but she replies "Suggest something". He gives her a
brief and very over-acted look of delight, a sort of "Oh now if
you really mean that ..." sort of look, oh heck I can't seem to describe
it very well but you will know it when you see it.
(BTW I meant Avon was over-acting not Paul Darrow, well I suppose
he was acting Avon over-acting if you see what I mean)
Julie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 15:39:50 EST
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <6faa0039.36d5b516@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 2/23/99 3:35:27 PM Central Standard Time,
kat@welkin.apana.org.au writes:
<< I'm beginning to suspect that the INTx's are the only ones on this
List *taking* the Myers-Briggs tests! Everyone else thinks the thread
is boring, and isn't bothering. >>
No, I took it and am an INFP. The test was a lot of fun. Thanks.
Now...does this mean I have a personality like Cally's?
Gail
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:46:41 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Total confusion...
Message-ID: <19990225224642.24771.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
...caused by lack of sleep yet again, and the company of Messrs Croup
and Vandemar in the "Neverwhere" novelisation in the early hours of this
morning (Friday). More gruesome than Vila's pedal extremity diet, I
assure you <smile> Otherwise, I'd have more brain cells to puzzle this
one out by myself.
>Heh, heh, heh. I knew I was going to get some flack on this. I am
>_not_ imagining things.
No, perish the thought. Just can't see it myself.
> Notice how inadequate he appears to feel because he doesn't >know how
to comfort her.
Actually, and I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, I've never been
able to persuade myself that much of his behaviour in that scene wasn't
motivated by spite because Vena had turned her back on him when he went
to offer his condolences.
>My interpretation is that Avon had finally run across a woman he
>*liked*, as opposed to wanted to play sexual power games with.
Very likely as, after all, he did put Vila on the mission to collect
Muller because Vila was being such a "gentleman" back at the base.
> You could easily interpret the look (called a *snigger* above) that he
>gives Vena to mean that he has just realized that she *may* in fact >be
available to him.
Equally, it could merely be amusement at a euphemism. We all know what
an "interesting" sense of humour the boy has...
>You may now take pot shots at me. I shall return.
As opposed to "I'll be back." <grin>
Regards
Joanne
(sleave of care ravelling rapidly)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:03:24 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
Message-ID: <36D5E4CB.1AFF98C9@ptinet.net>
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Joanne MacQueen wrote:
> ...caused by lack of sleep yet again, and the company of Messrs Croup
> and Vandemar in the "Neverwhere" novelisation in the early hours of this
> morning (Friday). More gruesome than Vila's pedal extremity diet, I
> assure you <smile> Otherwise, I'd have more brain cells to puzzle this
> one out by myself.
Perhaps you should rest then, although I would indeed like *one* convert to
my side. I am convinced that this ep is in many ways the nicest Avon we ever
get to see. (Except for his lack of judgment about keeping the android.) I
too like "Neverwhere", BTW.
> >Heh, heh, heh. I knew I was going to get some flack on this. I am
> >_not_ imagining things.
>
> No, perish the thought. Just can't see it myself.
Compare the way that he watches Vena when he talks to her with the way he
glances at other people -- looks at, looks away, etc., throughout series D.
Watches Vena very quietly. Looks deep into her eyes. Appears to feel more
regret at the pain Muller's death causes her than at the loss of Muller as
an asset. Non-aggressive, very polite without being as OT as he sometimes is
when trying to be 'charming' (apart from the 'snigger', as it's been
called). Paul Darrow and Lynda Bellingham are so sweet together here that
I've wondered from the very first time I saw it if they weren't friends
before the filming. I even wondered if she was his wife before I learned he
was married to Janet Lees Price.
> > Notice how inadequate he appears to feel because he doesn't >know how
> to comfort her.
>
> Actually, and I'm willing to be convinced otherwise, I've never been
> able to persuade myself that much of his behaviour in that scene wasn't
> motivated by spite because Vena had turned her back on him when he went
> to offer his condolences.
What, you mean his horror at being called a murderer? He was trying to turn
himself into the Leader of the Rebellion. Murderer is not a very good image.
Also, he is starting to think of himself as one of the good guys. I'm tired
too, tend to drop connecting words, please forgive. Remember also what no
one has mentioned. Vena knows where Xenon base is. Once there, she must stay
or die. No other safe, rational option. If she is not on their side, Avon
will have to kill her (or keep her prisoner-- LOL, he will be a Hommik!).
Even if he were not attracted to her, he would not really *want* to do this
I think. He is not a cold-blooded killer of women and children. Plaxton does
not count, that saved five lives, not destroyed one. I think spite is very
unfair to Avon, IMHO.
Actually, that scene is typical INTx behaviour and typical Avon. He really
has no idea how to deal with her and turns to Soolin for help, who has only
a slightly better idea. He tries very hard to be nice but it's not his gift,
then she yells at him. Under the circumstances, this is a very restrained
outburst for him. He would not show that same restraint with a man.
Here I will get totally flamed, I know, but Avon is basically a gentleman
when a woman doesn't pose a threat to him first. He does not like clingy
emotional women, they are a threat to his equilibrium (Piri), he will leer
when possible (Gold), he will do little sexual power dances with women who
try to one-up him (Servalan, the Alien, Pella), but a woman who is not
causing him problems will generally get none from him. (Remember how kind he
was to Meegat?) Vena is a 'nice' (in his estimate) woman who does not
frighten him by challenging his masculinity or his emotional equilibrium.
(Both of which, IMHO, he is very wary about keeping in place). Don't all
yell at once because I am only telling you what I think *his* attitude is,
not mine. Think John Wayne. You don't have to like it, just ask yourself if
it might not be Avon's attitude, yes?
This is one of his nicest eps, behaviourally. He is gentle with Vena,
rescues Tarrant and Vila when he knows it might be dangerous, goes up after
Muller when he knows it might be dangerous (just himself and Vena? brave,
risky or showing her he is a nice guy?) Tries to pull Muller off Vena with
his bare hands (I erred about the gun, that was later) and gets thrown into
the wall for his efforts. If you play it in slo-mo you can see in the corner
Avon gets thrown into the wall and Vila grabbing to steady him. When did you
ever see Avon try to protect a near-stranger instead of using the stranger
as cover to protect himself & co?
> >My interpretation is that Avon had finally run across a woman he
> >*liked*, as opposed to wanted to play sexual power games with.
>
> Very likely as, after all, he did put Vila on the mission to collect
> Muller because Vila was being such a "gentleman" back at the base.
>
> > You could easily interpret the look (called a *snigger* above) that he
> >gives Vena to mean that he has just realized that she *may* in fact >be
> available to him.
>
> Equally, it could merely be amusement at a euphemism. We all know what
> an "interesting" sense of humour the boy has...
Oh yes, this could be many things. But it has been suggested as sneering or
disgust, which I think is least likely. This is the first attractive woman
Avon has met in a long time who is not either comrade (tricky, too many
potential problems) or competition (unsafe). He is middle-aged, it would be
nice to have a companion. (I would think Soolin is perfect for him, but the
problem is getting them together. They are both too aloof. But I would be
satisfied with Vena, she seems very nice.)
I do not see her coming on to him, as a matter of fact; I see her trying to
be delicate and oh-so-slightly flirtatious; even in this day and age people
still do that for fun; my best friend's husband flirts with me, we all know
it's nothing. As I said in the other post, though, I think the funny
expression means he's just realized that Vena might be available to him
because Muller and Vena have no serious commitment. I would understand
'recreational' to mean having an affair, not marriage or a grand passion.
Avon would certainly not scruple at taking Muller's woman away from him once
he has Muller on the base.
So yes, I think he's interested, and she's not discouraging him. And I think
they're very cute together. Maybe scorch was the wrong word? Maybe
smouldering?
> >You may now take pot shots at me. I shall return.
Although you have to remember, I'm running out of caterpillars for this
week.Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:27:07 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast
Message-ID: <a9d438cd.36d5ea5b@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 2/25/99 7:22:26 AM Mountain Standard Time,
julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com writes:
<< Not interested? What about that look in "Trial" when Jenna tells him
to "Suggest something". He might not have an undying passion for
her but I think he would be interested in a "recreational"
relationship.
>>
I've always thought Jenna and Avon make an interesting pair. They're so much
alike in some ways, and neither of them is likely to make emotional demands on
the other. If it weren't for Blake, they might have formed a highly
profitable partnership.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 16:46:42 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast
Message-ID: <36D5EEF2.A77E1658@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Pherber@aol.com wrote:
> I've always thought Jenna and Avon make an interesting pair. They're so much
> alike in some ways, and neither of them is likely to make emotional demands on
> the other. If it weren't for Blake, they might have formed a highly
> profitable partnership.
Profitable, fun, and good-looking. I really like it when they're locked up
together during 'Redemption'.
Mistral
Who's very fond of the Jenna-Avon idea.
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 19:40:53 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
Message-ID: <3bdbc1a4.36d5ed95@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-02-25 19:03:38 EST, Mistral wrote:
<< Here I will get totally flamed, I know, but Avon is basically a gentleman
when a woman doesn't pose a threat to him first. He does not like clingy
emotional women, they are a threat to his equilibrium (Piri), he will leer
when possible (Gold), he will do little sexual power dances with women who
try to one-up him (Servalan, the Alien, Pella), but a woman who is not
causing him problems will generally get none from him. (Remember how kind he
was to Meegat?) >>
Actually, I mostly agree with you on this one. It's one of Avon's few
redeeming qualities. He was very kind to Dayna when Hal Mellanby was killed.
He was polite to Franton in "Children of Auron." And I think one of the
reasons he put up with Grose's torture in "Moloch" was to keep their attention
away from Dayna. In "Warlord," his anger was reserved for Tarrant. I don't
recall him being actively rude to Zeeona.
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 12:00:11 +1000
From: Gina Sartore <ginaa@psych.usyd.edu.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] .
Message-Id: <v03007802b2fbafa44c41@[129.78.82.186]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>>I don't like Tanith Lee much either.
>
>
>Too right. The bloody fascist.
>
>-- Rob
Oooo thanks Rob. Let's start that again, after all nothing much contentious
is going on at the moment....
But you win the "make gina giggle evilly" award for this morning.
Gina
INT/FP
(yep. Perfectly balanced between T/F, apparently. I confuse myself, sometimes)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 17:00:14 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
Message-ID: <36D5F21D.A6B31393@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Tigerm1019@aol.com wrote:
> And I think one of the
> reasons he put up with Grose's torture in "Moloch" was to keep their attention
> away from Dayna.
Hey Tiger! I *really*, *really* like this one, and I hadn't thought of it. Thanks.
(Although I think he would have kept his mouth shut anyway, not wanting to risk
Liberator; alternatively, there are days I wonder if he wasn't silently fuming
because Dayna hadn't spoken up already and stopped his pain. He looks so much
better if she's the one who gives in, Yes?)
> In "Warlord," his anger was reserved for Tarrant. I don't
> recall him being actively rude to Zeeona.
Also true. And if she'd saved the base without getting killed, she'd have bought
herself a spot in the group, with no objections or grudges from Avon.
Mistral (who's not really sure how she got into the position of defending Tall,
Dark and Nasty on this issue, anyway?)
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:20:45 EST
From: NetSurfCK@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Myers-Briggs
Message-ID: <5fd01653.36d5f6ed@aol.com>
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<<What Myers Briggs type are you?
Vick >>
<<O Negative.
-- Rob >>
Sounds like my type.
Does anyone on AOL know if there is a killfile function that will prevent
particular subject lines from dropping in? Myers Briggs, for instance.
I've never had much faith in the credibility of the Myers Briggs evaluations
and I have no interest in discussions related to them, even if the token
Blake's 7 comment is periodically thrown in. Please don't misunderstand, I'm
not complaining about the discussion; I'm just trying to figure out how I can
stop receiving them. Aside from completely unsubbing, that is. <g>
Cynthia
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:44:21 EST
From: NetSurfCK@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast.
Message-ID: <f411905b.36d5fc75@aol.com>
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<< Icsm80316@port.ac.uk writes:
Let's stop judging characters based on this junk and get back
to Myer's Briggs. >>
Vick >>
<groan>
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Return-path: <NetSurfCK@aol.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.
Subject: Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast.
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 20:24:05 EST
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<< Icsm80316@port.ac.uk writes:
Let's stop judging characters based on this junk and get back
to Myer's Briggs. >>
Vick >>
<groan>
--part0_919993461_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Feb 1999 08:16:36 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] everything
Message-ID: <19990226081636.01481@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Whee! This is fun!
This list is being a whirlwind of stimulating and witty conversation.
<much chuckles>
You folk are great!
Whee!
(Kathryn attempting an extrovert-style post as previously demonstrated
by Tramila, whose other name ought to be Tigger, with all that
bouncing)
(But I really do mean it. This is fun.)
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:31:46 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's
Message-ID: <36D623B1.4B70@jps.net>
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Replying, in fact, to a different post, but trying to clarify for
Tramila what makes Introverts interact with people differently than
extroverts do.
Tramila wrote:
>
> >Tramila wrote:
>
> >> I admit to feeling a little bit out in left field on this list. (ie, I
> feel like a fish out of >>water.) It is a truly strange feeling to be an
> extrovert in a predominately
> >> introvert list.
>
> Mistral wrote:
> > Tramila, please!!!!!! You can't *say* that to a bunch of INTs and run away.
>
> heh
>
> >How *exactly* does it feel? Surely you don't mean to say that you're
> intimidated by
> >us?
>
> Exactly? INT's are very intimidating.
But as *I*s, we tend to find interacting with others intimidating. You
actually have a bit of an edge on us, if you choose to use it. (Of
course, we like you better because you don't)
INTs are very articulate and
> exacting in what they say.
This is because we are _trying_ very hard to be clear. Being
misunderstood is something that is terribly upsetting. As it is, I'm
very good at getting people to understand my ideas, but very poor at
getting across my feelings. I'm always getting spoken to at ork about
being 'angry'. I'm not angry. I just have an intense opinion. I express
my opinion, anpparently scare the crap out of certain ES
whatever-they-ares, who don't understand that my strong _ideas_ do not
equate to strong emotion, or that I seem aloof because I am intimidate
of sounding like and ass if I try to make small talk.
As you could see by my post, my brain is a bit
> scattered. (You should see me in RL.) ie, I think in random leaps. INTs,
> in my opinion, are linear thinkers.
I am a lateral thinker, and a linear expresser. I jump from base to
base, corelating the points of thought until I can turn them into
something logical. But the actual thinking is pretty lateral.
They can coordinate ideas then express
> them in ways that leave very little room for argument.
Once again, that's trying not to look foolish or be misunderstood. We
really, really want to hear the opinions of others. We just want to
express things fully and articulately to make sure we are talking _about
the same idea_. Otherwise, one person discusses apples and the other
oranges. We've gotten into to many arguements of that sort not to be
cautious. I've been trying to stir up conversations on another mailing
list and get few replies, because people apparently think my attempts to
stir speculation are my strongly held theories. There seems to be no way
to win. :^/
Now don't get me
> wrong, I'm very exacting and precise in some things. I'm an Engineer who
> should have been an accountant but get me in a room full of INTs and I
> usually feel that while I can have some fun arguing my point, I know that
> in the end, I will have the short end of the stick. Also, I get lots of
> practice being on the short end of the stick because hubby is an Engineer
> studying for a Masters in Anthropology and as you can guess, he is an INT.
> (Can you say Latin version of Avon?)
I hope I'm convincing you that your input _is_ valued. Don't be
intimidated by our means of expression. Your _different_ point of view
makes your comments all the more valuable.
>
> >How do you view the difference between extrovert list behaviour and introvert
> >list behaviour?
>
(snipping fascinating stuff about the difference between an E and I
list)
I've been on an E list. It was very frustrating for the few I's on it. I
like bouncy, frivilous posts like the example only as a contrast to the
deeper conversation.
>
> Please understand that while I love being on extrovert list, I find this
> list fascinating and fun to be on as well. My major problem is that I'm a
> very slow typist so to discuss all the insights on B7 on a regular basis
> can be frustrating to me because I just can't seem to keep up. (at this
> point, I have been answering this post for almost an hour)
It takes me a fair amount of time, too.
>
> OK, time to make Pat's ears burn again. He. He.
> If I'm not typing, I can get into fairly deep, introvert discussion
> sessions. As I've said before, Pat and I have talked for hours about B7.
> BTW, Pat called today and was suitable impressed by my long post. <g>
> WOW!!! I impressed an INT. Heh.
Very good. I am looking forward to when we meet in person.
The conversational depth as noted on lists, I believe also applies o
real life. I's do not make light conversation easily. We prefer to go
in-depth. We tend to take interacting with other people seriously. That
makes us guarded until we trust, then, once we trust, we are very honest
and not at all superficial.
Why are we guarded at first? Knowlege is power, for one thing. The more
people know about us, the more they can try to influence us.
For another, at least in my case, I want to be in control of my own
situation, and interacting with others is an uncontrolled experience.
For another, we are aware this is not our strong suit, and we have to
_work_ to answer questions like, "Enjoying the weather?" and "How's the
family?" I percieve, and I think other INT's do, that these questions
tend to be phony, resent having to answer questions where the answer is
irrelevant, don't want the resentment to show, try to follow etiquette,
fight urge to give meaningful answer, etc. Whereas you probably just
automatically say "Fine" and are glad someone asked.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:46:06 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (New Definitions!)
Message-ID: <36D626F9.6711@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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VJC wrote:
> I'm afraid I've got to agree with Iain as well. I'm a strong INTP,
> about 80% P, but I tend to operate in a way strategically that would
> be more closely associated with the INTJ. Of course, all things being
> relative, just how messy does your desk have to be to qualify as a P?
> I've said before, I have a very tidy mind and even applied to my room
> there's order in the chaos. Maybe the reason why a strong SJ would
> consider me disorganised is that they fail to see the underlying
> structure of things. As long as I know where things are where they're
> meant to be, that's all that matters!
Okay, this, I think is an important distinction. An SJ wants their OUTER
world organized. An NJ wants their INNER world organized? Doesn't that
fit both with the theory, and with general observation?
> I see people as conduits for infomation, rather than as people in
> their own right,
I have enough NF in me that I respect people as people. But as far as
their _relationship_ to me, I find most 'friends' to be givers of
information and exchangers of ideas, and sounding boards for theories.
Still,I'm not cold to them. If I hear one of them has an injury, I will
wonder about what's happening until I hear they are better. But I
generally won't think to say much on the subject. :^/
but I have a select few close friends who I presume
> until proven otherwise I would be loyal too. Course, it would take a
> life-and-death situation to prove this!
I've been thinking about the "Orbit" test (bring this back to B7) "Who
would I step out the airlock for?" My mother, and my best friend. Mom,
because if I didn't and she thought of it, she'd step out for me without
hestitation, and I couldn't let her do that. My best friend, well she's
younger than me, and I have high hopes for her.
My husband and I would go down together, or find the damn plastic,
because we couldn't stand to either survive at the cost of the other,
and are aware of the burden of guilt we would give the other through
self-sacrifice.
I'd probably draw straws with my father or brother. Anyone else, I would
probably pick up the gun. I hope I haven't scared the bejeebers out of
everyone with this.
And I'm not as cold as I sound. Once, when a woman at work lost her
husband, I brought her a teddy bear for Valentine's Day. And we weren't
good friends. I just didn't want her to feel terribly alone on such a
meaningful day. I carry aspirin with me at conventions because everyone
gets sore feet and headaches.
>
> I have been working on (my own!) new temperment analysis theory
> which divideds people into only three groups.
>
> Each group can only be divided into I/E and F/T
> 3. Shiva
>
> Intuative
>
> Lives one step towards the future, and would really rather not
> inhabit the domain of the flesh at all. Abstract thinking, the two
> poles of Thinking and Feeling are manifest as either uncanny
> insights, flawless logic or empathic, charismatic relationships.
> Replacement of traditional values with logic or empathy may make the
> Intuative appear amoral.
> Favorite TV: Sci-Fi, Supernatural, Science documentarys e.g.
> Discovery Channel, Tommorow's World.
> Sees the world for what it is,
> but would really like to mould in in their own image.
>
Faascinating. So yours would tend to put the NTs and NFs together? I
admit that virtually everyone I relate to tends to fall into the N
category. And I know my childhood seemed geared toward NF, and NT may be
the result of years of ingrained habit and lessons.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 21:54:56 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long)
Message-ID: <36D62920.1F9D@jps.net>
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VJC wrote:
>
> As this was so long, I've skipped the whole thing.
>
> INTxs don't understand flirtation any more than they do small talk.
I don't understand small talk. I do understand flirting. Then again, I
try to make small talk as myself, whereas flirting is a form of acting,
for me. And I have the absolute refuge of being happily married if
someone misunderstands that I am not being serious. As per my pervious
post, INTs take conversation seriously. I don't however, take flirtation
seriously.
Then again, I only flirt at Cons.
> NTs dress like nerds. The only clothes in Liberator's locker in
> Avon's size were sexy. Otherwise he'd have stayed with the prison
> uniform, but it was beginning to stink.
This is a horrid stereotype. What are NTs? Rational and practical. Is it
practical to look like a nerd? No. Everyone sneers and laughs at you. To
be taken seriously, you ignore fasion, which constantly changes and is
therefore useless information. Instead, you choose classic, timeless
garments. If you have an attractive body, you also dress in a way that
subtley or boldly declares this bit of information, in order that you
have the psychological advantage that comes with being attractive. It is
much less work to dress attractive than act attractive.
If clothing was such an S trait, why do the majority of people wear
casual clothing constantly, and leave the house in old sweats or jeans
and a T-shirt?
--Avona, INT/fJ/P, and definitely not at all S, who enjoys the
scientific observation of how many heads turn when she wears a strapless
gown.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:17:24 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast -- and a heck of a tro...
Message-ID: <f31ce1b1.36d62054@aol.com>
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In a message dated 2/25/99 8:45:59 AM Mountain Standard Time,
mistral@ptinet.net writes:
> Heh, heh, heh. I knew I was going to get some flack on this. I am _not_
> imagining things. I prefer to think of Avon as a role model, rather than a
> romantic object, but I have difficulty not softening up a bit when Avon and
> Vena are on screen together. IMO, he is more charming *and* attractive here
> than in any other series D ep, and many eps from other series as well --
I don't think I'd ever looked at it this way before, but after watching it
again I think you're right. He is rather more gentle with Vena than any other
female, even Meegat. He does seem to want her to like him (or at least not
dislike him) and behaves protectively toward her. It's subtle, but with Avon
any unbending at all is unusual.
Not to mention that he's looking sexier than usual, with his hair all tousled
like that... <evil leer>
Good call, Mistral
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:17:21 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon: J or P?
Message-ID: <805f4379.36d62051@aol.com>
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In a message dated 2/25/99 2:23:22 AM Mountain Standard Time,
csm80316@port.ac.uk writes:
<< How many people on this list actually vote for eack camp?
Let's have a show of hands.
>>
I think he's INTP.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:17:26 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Career change?
Message-ID: <68f89188.36d62056@aol.com>
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In a message dated 2/24/99 11:07:12 PM Mountain Standard Time,
mistral@ptinet.net writes:
> LOL!!! Pocket protectors are for engineers, not techno-wizards. Avon doesn't
> need
> anything in his pockets, his brain holds it all.
Techno-wizard? Hmmm...Now there's a thought - Avon as a technomage! They'd
have to give up the no-hair rule, though. (And which team would get him in
the cricket match?)
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 23:17:25 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's
Message-ID: <286fb6d5.36d62055@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 2/25/99 1:03:26 AM Mountain Standard Time,
cdmunoz@earthlink.net writes:
> I think in random leaps.
That's a generally N trait, I suspect. I'm INTP and I do it too. Mistral
called it "butterfly-like", which I think is very apt. Our intuition makes us
see nonlinear connections.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:07:09 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Message-ID: <36D62BFD.5A52@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> > It's one thing to be
> >intrigued by the effect one has on a member of the opposite sex, it's
> >another thing to go out of ones way to cause it. <g> I've really got to
> >get to one of the big B7 cons one day and see how my 'Servalan' act goes
> >over.
> >
> You've got a lot of competition in David Walsh. Or do you just mean
> you intend to assassinate the con committee and elevate yourself to a
> position of *ultimate* power, while sensuously running your fingers
> over anyone who takes your fancy?
Mostly the latter. :^) Not doing an impersonation, but rather, emulating
her style and glamour.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:28:18 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
Message-ID: <36D630F2.208F@jps.net>
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mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>
> What, you mean his horror at being called a murderer? He was trying to turn
> himself into the Leader of the Rebellion. Murderer is not a very good image.
> Also, he is starting to think of himself as one of the good guys. I'm tired
> too, tend to drop connecting words, please forgive. Remember also what no
> one has mentioned. Vena knows where Xenon base is. Once there, she must stay
> or die. No other safe, rational option. If she is not on their side, Avon
> will have to kill her (or keep her prisoner-- LOL, he will be a Hommik!).
I can't remember, did she go there on her own or was she brought? Did
they say? If she didn't navigate the way herself, she probably couldn't
give anyone enough info for them to find it.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 22:33:55 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Total confusion... (Avon & Vena?)
Message-ID: <36D63243.4903@jps.net>
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Tigerm1019@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 99-02-25 19:03:38 EST, Mistral wrote:
>
> << Here I will get totally flamed, I know, but Avon is basically a gentleman
> when a woman doesn't pose a threat to him first. He does not like clingy
> emotional women, they are a threat to his equilibrium (Piri), he will leer
> when possible (Gold), he will do little sexual power dances with women who
> try to one-up him (Servalan, the Alien, Pella), but a woman who is not
> causing him problems will generally get none from him. (Remember how kind he
> was to Meegat?) >>
>
> Actually, I mostly agree with you on this one. It's one of Avon's few
> redeeming qualities. He was very kind to Dayna when Hal Mellanby was killed.
> He was polite to Franton in "Children of Auron." And I think one of the
> reasons he put up with Grose's torture in "Moloch" was to keep their attention
> away from Dayna. In "Warlord," his anger was reserved for Tarrant. I don't
> recall him being actively rude to Zeeona.
Agreed, and allow me to add... looking totally p-o'd at the guy in
"Space Fall" who slaps Jenna. If looks could kill, Avon would have
murdered him faster than Jenna. And in "Moloch" he put up with the pain
he was being put to, but didn't he jump when Dayna was threatened? I see
him as being quite a chivalrous man by nature, who has to act callous
sometimes and aggressive at others to protect the interests of himself
and his friends against dangers. Also, he restrains his protective
instincts a bit with his shipmates to show he respect their
capabilities.
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #83
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