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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 79
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's
Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] A filk for Vila
Re: [B7L] Maniacal Surrender (was: Myers-Briggs)
Re:[B7L]Mary Sues
Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Mary Sues (long)
Re: [B7L]Gareth on TV
Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
[B7L] Alphas in heat and Choirboys
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Alphas in heat and Choirboys
Re: [B7L] Re: Roche limit
[B7L] game stats and J. Caesar
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P)
Re: [B7L] game stats and J. Caesar
[B7L] Re: Myers Briggs
[B7L] Re: Myers Briggs
[B7L] Re: J. Caesar
[B7L] Non SF Fanfic
[B7L] Myers Briggs NOT!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 23:53:23 -0800
From: Tramila <cdmunoz@earthlink.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's
Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990223235323.0086d720@earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>Tramila wrote:
>> Yes. We "E's" are definitely people persons.
>>
>> And speaking of "I's" ..... I find it fascinating that a bunch of I's are
>> enthusiastically talking, opening up, and conversing. Are you sure that
>> you all are I's? It is great to see all of you being so enthusiastically
>> extrovert in your opinions.
>#1. We find it 'safe' to talk on the Net. IRL, I would not be able to
>talk like this to anyone I hadn't known for about 5 years and really
>trusted. I assume this is true of most of the other I's-- a nuber of us
>have made remarks about our own surprise about our openness in this
>forum. Also, I think _because_ INT's are so common here, we feel more
>comfortable than in real life situations where we are hopelessly
>outnumbered by people who wouldn't begin to understand.
Perhaps you are right but Avona but as you know a list is an excellent
place to hide and yet to feel safe. No one knows who are you really are
and that is what an introvert need. A safe place to talk and be themselves
without having to physically reveal themselves. I admit to feeling a little
bit out in left field on this list. (ie, I feel like a fish out of water.)
It is a truly strange feeling to be an extrovert in a predominately
introvert list. I've learned a lot and I enjoy this list. Besides. I
love B7. I just wish I knew about the show as it occurred instead of years
later. :)
>#2. We aren't giving _details_, but discussing where we fall in
>classification in a system that intrigues us.
I love taking all the psych tests. In fact, I have them bookmark so I can
I retake them on occasion. The first I heard of the Myer's test was from
Pat. We took "Please Understand Me" with us to a con. Guess who was the
only Extrovert? <rolls eyes and laughs> Anyway. Pat is fun. I guess I've
had the pleasure of crossing over her line because we talk, argue and
discuss every subject in the world. This was very disturbing to the other
Introvert who thought we were really arguing but as all of you introverts
know, disagreeing can be as much fun (if not more fun) than agreeing. teehee.
>#3 Extroverts tend to be interested in others on at least a superficial
>level. My mother is an extrovert, IMHO, and she said, "But I never talk
>much about myself." I told her that it isn't how much talking she does,
>it's how much _listening_ she does. And she is almost _always_
>surrounded by people.
Sounds like my kind of person. <giggle>
>#4 what I found most telling was the notion that Extroverts are
>energized through interacting with other people. For me, interaction
>takes a toll on me in terms of stress and energy drain. I only socialize
>when I deem it worth my energy.
That's what Pat says. We've had a ton of conversations about this and I
can actually see how it drains her. <hugs Pat> but as you said, People,
that is, being around people energizes me. You get to talk to people.
Laugh with them. Find out their opinions. Play. Try to understand how
others see the world. Now here is the part that most don't know. After a
very heavy session with a ton of people, I am happy but also very drained
of energy. I go home and just sit, barely moving, thinking, or desiring to
do anything for a while until I've had enough rest. Although part of this
may be due to the Chronic Fatigue that I fight all the time, most of it
comes from the physical and emotional intensity of being with people 100%.
So what I am trying to say is that while I am actually with people, I am
energized but when I go home, I collapse from the intensity of the experience.
Final comments.
I understand all your points Avona but as an extrovert, it is really
difficult to understand how an Introvert is uncomfortable around people.
Please understand that I've seen many introverts in action (or is that in
hiding). I've observed their discomfort so I know that it is real but the
problem lies in understanding why introverts are uncomfortable. Look at
Avon. It is obvious that he is extremely uncomfortable even around his
crew members (Orac and Zen excluded). He hides in his toys, in his work,
and even in his thoughts so that he doesn't have to reveal himself to
people. Is it that scary to allow people to see you as you are? People are
just people. They react to what they see on the outside. Unless you are
willing to tell your deepest, darkest secrets, people will never know who
are you. So what I am getting at is that you can hide who you are within
the extrovert being just as easily as you can hide as an introvert so why
not be an extrovert? (BTW, Hubby is an introvert and so is close personal
friend Pat Patera....hugs Pat).
Oh and speaking of extrovert activities, I was at Universal Studios
Hollywood yesterday. I love the sound stage tour. They chose people from
the audience to participate. Speaking as the ultimate extrovert, 99% of
the time that I go there I get chosen for one of the on-camera roles.
<giggle>
MC: Who would like to participate in a role.. (explains role)
Tramila: <jumping up and down, waving hand frantically> Me! Me!
MC: Ok. <points> The lady on the third row, waving her hand.
he he
I got to make walking sounds for Big Foot using plungers and also had to
spin a box with metal objects inside to make crashing sounds. Fun. Fun. Fun.
> teehee. <looks both ways and runs like heck>
>Damn! She always runs, just as I'm taking sight...
It's called being scared. The drawbacks to being an extrovert is that I'm
not very articulate. (See long nonsensical paragraphs above)
>--Avona, who has a reason she likes Vila, too. He is amusing and so
>_very_ unlike myself.
Although I could never be like Vila, he brings out the Mother Hen in me. I
have a huge sense of fair play and poor Vila never seem to get the long end
of the stick. Besides, he has an adorable smile.
Tramila, the one who only had eyes for Avon for the first five years then
switched without warning and has been a happy camper ever since.
PS.
Hey Pat. When are you going to write Chess? <vvvvvEg>
---------
Charter Member and Pres. of V.I.C.E.
Vila's Intimately Corruptible Element
Am I corruptible? Of course I am! and loving it!!!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 02:55:31 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues
Message-ID: <ef20ca97.36d3b073@aol.com>
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Neil wrote:
> So the answer to your question is no, not all that many. As I reckon you
> expected. But then I never claimed to be a fanfic junkie.
Yes, this is what I expected. Thank you, I couldn't have said it better. You
aren't a fanfic junkie. With the hundreds of B7 zines that are available and
your length of time in fandom, you haven't purchased many zines.
So it might be safe to say that your tastes are different from that of the
average avid fanzine readers. Yet you'd tell us avid readers what is wrong
with the genre, how to improve it, that we haven't set our goals high enough,
that we are too fannish, too cannonish, non-explorative and non daring.
You've given me a great idea. I read three Romance novels a year, just enough
to remind myself why I don't like Romance novels. But I know how they could
be better (that is, how they could be written so I'd like them more). So I
should go to a convention of Romance writers and readers and tell them that.
It's for their own good after all. They are stuck and stagnated in what they
write and read. Never mind that what I'd change are the exact formulas that
make Romance so enjoyable for them. Never mind that they are intelligent
people who could choose to write or read something different if they wanted
to. Never mind that they derive a great deal of pleasure, satisfaction and
relaxation out of Romance novels as they are currently written. Art needs
critics. It needs someone who sees the bigger picture. Someone who can make
it better than it is.
Well, I could do that, but I think those Romance writers and readers would
have every right to tar and feather me and run me out of town on a rail.
The question isn't how your tastes differ from mine Neil, the point is they do
differ.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:54:57 +1000
From: Kiersten Boughen <goldilox@senet.com.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990224175457.0079f100@senet.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 10:00 AM 23/02/99 -0700, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>I'm going to say "j" on the Sopron thing. He made a special trip to pick
>up that rock, when no one else knew what he wanted it for. Clearly, it
>wasn't ssome fascinating thing that he stumbled across, but something he
>had a general plan in mind for. So he went out, got it, studied it, used
>it-- what he did with it after, who knows? <snip>
He obviously didn't physically stumble across the Sopron but that's not to
say he didn't stumble across it during a conversation with Orac or Zen. The
fact that no one else knew why Avon wanted the Sopron is indicative of his
introverted tendencies. Whether Avon had a general plan for the Sopron or
not is not shown. Besides, P types are very good at having general plans,
it's just that they lose interest in carrying these plans once they've
thoroughly understood the subject, which is _usually_ before completion of
the project.
Another example of Avon's P tendencies (IMO) is in 'Spacefall' when Blake
is trying to recruit Avon. This is a rather nice J/P clash. Avon claims he
has other ideas on how to escape to which Blake responds: "Offer to fix the
ship's log and dump the other prisoners. You've had 4 months to think about
that and it didn't take you that long to realise the crew would have to
dump you too" (something like that). Only a P type personality could second
guess themselves in this way for 4 months. If it hadn't been for Blake,
Avon probably would have been fretting about a possible course of action
all the way to Cygnus Alpha. J-man Blake needed to step in and make a
decision and make it happen. Besides, Avon is frequently commenting that
Blake is better at action than thinking (implication that Avon sees his own
strength in considering all the options - a P tendency).
Kiersten (firmly entrenching myself on the P team)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:48:51 +1000
From: Kiersten Boughen <goldilox@senet.com.au>
To: "B7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990224074851.0079f100@senet.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 09:51 AM 23/02/99 -0000, Alison Page wrote:
>I am also gripped by Lisa's insight in calling Travis ISTJ. I had
>never thought of it and I think it's great. Interesting (like Data) the
>metaphor of a simulation of biological life, in one case benign and in the
>other malign. The elements of loyalty and loneliness which both exhibit. As
>I say, I think the SJs always get a hard time and I want to understand them
>better.
Travis as an ISTJ seems to really fit IMO. SJ's are somewhat obsessive
about adhering to the rules which would go a long way to explaining his
loyalty to the Federation (and his response when that loyalty was betrayed)
and his abhorrence of Blake. Blake is fighting against the established
order. To an SJ that would be intolerable. I work with an SJ and as often
as he complains about the regulations he continues to rigidly abide by them.
Kiersten
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:50:26 +1000
From: Kiersten Boughen <goldilox@senet.com.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990224175026.00794370@senet.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 12:25 PM 23/02/99 GMT0BST, VJC wrote:
>> On the other hand, there's the Sopron. Except that that's the only
>> time we see him so absent-minded-professor-ish.
>
>So what about 'Headhunter'?
'Headhunter' is quintessential INTP behaviour. To quote from the Keirsey site:
"INTPs are likely, especially in their later years...to think of themselves
as the prime movers who must pit themselves against nature and society in
an endless struggle to define ends clearly and adopt whatever means that
promise success. If this is arrogance, then at least it is not vanity..."
When I read this, I immediately thought of that discussion between Avon,
Tarrant and Orac after the android has been destroyed. Avon accusing
Tarrant of brutish ignorance, Orac accusing Avon of destructive
arrogance...doesn't get much better than that :-)
Kiersten
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 17:56:39 +1000
From: Kiersten Boughen <goldilox@senet.com.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] A filk for Vila
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990224175639.0079f100@senet.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 03:19 PM 23/02/99 PST, Joanne MacQueen wrote:
>
>Hopefully, I've got this out of my system now. But if there's a next
>time, remind me to pick something that most people know...
>
>Drink Now, Grieve Later (Vila No 2)
>(tune: Buy Now Pay Later (Charlie No 2) by The Whitlams)
<snip of great filk>
Don't apologise for using Whitlams songs - they're a brilliant band (and I
don't care if hardly anyone on the list has heard of them :-) ). I love
'Drink Now, Grieve Later' and I look forward to putting on the CD and
singing along.
Kiersten
PS 'I make computers' reminded my husband that we don't have 'Undeniably
the Whitlams' an unacceptable gap in our CD collection. So your filks have
in a small way contributed positively to music sales and the Australian
economy.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 02:31:01
From: Penny Dreadful <egomoo@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Maniacal Surrender (was: Myers-Briggs)
Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.19990224023101.24879dce@mail.geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Avona said:
>Travis adds a verse about electric sheep to the Hedgehog Song? I know,
>Other List.
And here's me just now realising the hitherto overlooked rhyming potential
inherent in the phrase "Laseron destructor"...again I propose someone ought
to start up a Puerile B7 Mailing List. In order to be a member you have to
pass Penny's Puerility Test, which involves composing a filthy limerick
about every major character in the series, among other things, and you
can't claim any of them are from Nantucket, either.
--Penny "So Long As You're Wearing Cork Soles" Dreadful
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:11:01 -0000
From: "Julie Horner" <julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re:[B7L]Mary Sues
Message-ID: <01be5fd5$9941ed60$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Lisa said:
>Of the conservative smattering of seven fandoms I read, the settings
>include only two SF. The others are action adventure, spy adventure,
>western, or various combinations of the above. And there are many, many
>more fandoms out there, from various genres
I am sure I have read somewhere that there is now a certain amount of
fanfic being written about Prince William.
<pauses to think about this>
Now surely that genre must exist soley for the purpose of
writing Mary-Sues. I expect it provides creative writing practise for
English GCSE. (or 11 year-old assessment?)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 03:00:31
From: Penny Dreadful <egomoo@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Mary Sues
Message-Id: <3.0.6.16.19990224030031.08e728e6@mail.geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I mentioned some days ago when the "getting printed up in a 'zine'"
question came up regarding the (damn you Arkaroo forget your GPA where are
your *priorities* man?) Flat Robin that the word 'zine' conjured up only
horrid flashbacks to the Punk scene in Edmonton in the mid-'80's, which was
tiny and tight-knit and downright incestuous and scorned by the incredibly
vast majority of the world...which a seriously naive individual might
assume would foster solidarity among its varying factions, but *au
contraire*, the less than a thousand Card-Carrying Edmonton Punk Rockers
savaged and slandered one another's sub-factions with an unparallelled
viciousness, anarchist versus communist versus yadda, vegetarian versus
yadda, people who would be caught dead listening to AM radio versus
yadda...the connection being that we used to create what we called 'zines'
which I gather may be *somewhat* approximated to the publications *you*
mean when you say 'zines'...
But the *real* connection being the fact that this minority (fan-fiction
fans) of a minority (B7 fans) of a minority (sci-fi fans) can so
self-righteously tear into one another -- gosh it takes me back, brings a
tear to my eye...
--Penny "Just To Dye My Hair, Thank You" Dreadful
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 20:41:04 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <19990224204104.44787@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Regarding Avon as INTP - what about his strong willpower? I'm
thinking "Deathwatch" here: "I will not go to sleep, I will not go to
sleep..."
And just because Avon gets fascinated by interesting things, doesn't
mean he has to be a P -- Js surely delve and get fascinated too?
(I just realized another bit of evidence that I'm a J - I like to get
things *finished* and I'm happier after a decision than before it)
Yeah, his *behaviour* is mixed. The question is, what is inherent
tendency, and what is learned habit?
What about Horizon? Is he dithering over a decision, or merely
trying to get all the facts before coming to a decision?
When he *does* decide, he acts pretty promptly - but is that because
he has no time to do otherwise?
Or was he relieved that he had finally decided what he was going to
do?
I doubt we will agree on this, considering that fans have taken Avon's
actions on Horizon to mean completely opposite things: either that he
was a bastard who would have abandoned them except that he was forced
into rescuing them, or as a non-bastard who freely chose to rescue
them when he realized he wanted to after all.
I feel his behaviour on Horizon was J-like - at least in the measure
that I can see *myself* agonizing over a decision like that, and then
zipping into action when I had made my decision.
Kathryn A.
(wearing her Avon hat)
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:45:24 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mary Sues (long)
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0224074524-313Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Wed 24 Feb, Lisa Williams wrote:
> Neil Faulkner wrote:
>
> >Or to put it another way - why is it that fanfic nearly always develops
> >around SF/Fantasy shows rather than soap operas or other real world
> >(contemporary or historical) dramas?
>
> There's a lot of fanfic based on SF, certainly, but "nearly always" is a
> gross overstatement. There are many fandoms generating fanfic these days,
> and SF & fantasy shows are a minority in number -- though, largely because
> of the massive Trek contribution, probably still a majority in sheer
> wordcount.
>
> Of the conservative smattering of seven fandoms I read, the settings
> include only two SF. The others are action adventure, spy adventure,
> western, or various combinations of the above. And there are many, many
> more fandoms out there, from various genres.
Judith's instant theory.
Fandoms develop around shows where one individual can have a significant effect
on the course of events.
Westersm definitely fall into this category. So do cop shows. So do action
adventure shows and most SF shows.
Soaps don't tend to have individuals with that degree of power - many soap
characters exist in order to be browbeaten by events rather then to rise
gloriously above them.
Note that individual epiosdes of many shows may break this rule (and let our
heros get beaten), but that fact that I can use the word hero is probably
sufficient vindication of the theory in itself.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 09:23:14 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]Gareth on TV
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0224082314-06cRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Tue 23 Feb, Julie Horner wrote:
> I have just seen Gareth Thomas in the new advert for
> Warburton's bread. It's a kind of sweet father and son thing
> but unfortunately they don't use his voice for the voice over.
> I guess he doesn't sound Lancastrian enough.
>
> Still - nice ad. Seen it yet Judith? Or hang on, maybe you
> don't get Warburton's bread in Dorset...
A kind friend up North taped it for me.
Did you spot that they dyed his hair for the flashback sequence?
I'll get a picture up on the web at some point.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:25:40 +0000
From: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
To: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
Cc: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Message-ID: <2LapDIAkO902EwWB@wriding.demon.co.uk>
In message <36D37046.7F6B@jps.net>, Helen Krummenacker
<avona@jps.net> writes
>>
>> The only major characters who use their allure as a weapon in B7 are
>> Servalan and Tarrant (a little), I would say. I don't see Avon as
>> pretending to seduce women to get what he wants.
>
>Russ, where have you been, when he kissed Cally/alien in 'Sarcophogus'?
Making the coffee. Every single time :)
Okay, okay, I concede that in that instance, when he had to save his
life and their was a being practically gagging for him he went along
with her and made cow-eyes. There. Happy now? I still say he made a
very bad job of it, and only the alien's bizarre taste gave him a chance
of success...
>And what of his little charm dances with Servalan? I don't think he
>finds her the least bit appealling. She's vulgar, by the standards I
>think he has.
I'm not sure we can draw too many conclusions about his taste from
the one canonical relationship (Anna) that we see. Servalan's no
sophisticate in some ways, but she's intelligent, sensual, driven and
ruthless. I think Avon sees all these qualities in himself and is drawn to
Servalan as the dark mirror of his own soul (whoops, straying into
fanfic purple prose - at least I didn't use the word 'tortured'!)
> But _she_ apparently finds _him_ attractive.
Or at least he has useful talents and it's convenient to apparently find
him attractive. I think that's the case until season three.
> So he uses
>that, to draw her out, get her to talk, learn your enemy to defeat your
>enemy. He wouldn't go all the way, I don't think, but the use of feigned
>attraction is something he definitely understand. In fact, it's another
>way of 'lying without lying'.
>
He never seems to try it on women who *aren't* already attracted to
him. Of course, it may be he's never met one :)
--
Russ Massey
Sirius Games, 161 Montague Street, Worthing,
West Sussex BN11 3BZ
(01903 217334)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:17:44 +0000
From: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
To: Mac4781@aol.com
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Alphas in heat and Choirboys
Message-ID: <8LxrzGAIH902Ew2R@wriding.demon.co.uk>
In message <657de471.36d31098@aol.com>, Mac4781@aol.com
writes
>Russ wrote:
>
>> Well he's very chivalric but at the same time I would say is attitude to
>> the female crew-members is only just short of active flirtation.
>
>Not that I saw. He had the look of a deer caught in headlights when Dayna
>suggested they perform the human bonding ceremony. I think he pretty much
>viewed all of his shipmates as just shipmates. Maybe it was a carryover from
>his military training.
>
It wasn't exactly a convenient time, was it. Dayna's tastes obviously
run to being on the receiving end of voyeurism, but Tarrant might well
have qualms about his ability to perform satisfactorily under close
alien scrutiny.
>I hate to lower Tarrant's stats even further (especially since you judged him
>way too low in both strength and intelligence <pout>), but Avon was far more
>aware of his sexuality than Tarrant was.
More *obviously* aware, certainly. Probably more aware of it then
anyone else around him come to that :)
> Which is fine by me. A minority of
>us find choirboys to be much more appealing than rogue pirates.
I think that just because Tarrant shows no urge to throw women to the
floor at the drop of an invitation that's no treason to label him a
'choirboy'. I'm sure that he had a perfectly healthy libido and a wide
and varied selection of personal fantasies about the other members of
the crew (which ones being up to individual taste, natch) - he just
didn't (metaphorically) thrust his groin under people's noses in the
way that Avon was wont to.
> I think a
>very telling sequence that shows the difference between Avon and Tarrant is
>how they "interact" with the bond bombshell in "Gold." Avon gives her a
>look
>that has Alpha-male-in-heat written all over it. Tarrant interacts in the
>manner of that choirboy mentioned above. Even beyond the fact that he was
>faking drugged bliss.
>
Maybe Tarrant thinks that women don't appreciate being eyed up like
pieces of meat. Or maybe he's keeping his mind on the job at hand.
--
Russ Massey
Sirius Games, 161 Montague Street, Worthing,
West Sussex BN11 3BZ
(01903 217334)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:33:24 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.990224102538.5282A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
This whole debate about whether or not Avon is J or P may have an
interesting resolution. In the course of all the discussion, it seems that
many people (like myself) who test unambiguously INT* are borderline J/P,
and that it's tricky to make the distinction between INTJ and INTP.
Perhaps this is telling us that it's not worth making those distinctions
in a broad classification like this, and it would be better just to lump
all the INT* together in a single class.
This is how any measuring method works: you start with some kind of
method, and by using it find out its inadequacies and improve it. The
Myers-Briggs test is clearly measuring _something_ (for example, the
online community does not have the same proportions of types as the
general population), but there's no reason to think that what it's
measuring is perfectly captured by the underlying theory. If the
measurements don't quite fit the theory, change the theory.
(That last sentence is as succint a definition of science as you'll ever
get.)
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:22:27 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <254977B2AC8@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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> VJC wrote:
Actually, I didn't write this - if fact if you'd read the rest of the
post you'd realise why.
You're obviously someone else who must read my novella when Horizon
print it.
Vick INTP
Untidy room, Tidy mind
> > > It's interesting also, when you look at fanfic, that the authors
> > seem
> > > to be unconciously placing Avon in the "J" camp whenever they describe
> > > his cabin -- it's always neat and uncluttered. Usually set up as a
> > > contrast with Blake's which is inevitably more messy.
>
> Question... where does the bit about tidyness being an INTJ trait come
> from? I am very organized in my head, but my physical surroundings I am
> indifferent to, or I may even perfer untidy, and the untidiness keeps
> the items I want actually closer to hand. Sherlock Holmes was the same
> way. I'm concerned about being timely and getting my goals accomplished.
> Housekeeping is not a goal of mine. However, when the time comes for me
> to tidy, I get down to the details, emptying and vacuuming a drawer
> before I put my summer wardrobe where my winter wardrobe was. But after
> that, it becomes a mess.
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:36:47 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Alphas in heat and Choirboys
Message-ID: <faebd8b9.36d3e44f@aol.com>
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Russ is being incredibly Tarrant perceptive (do I sense that a Tarrant Nostra
button would like to have his name on it? <eg>):
> I think that just because Tarrant shows no urge to throw women to the
> floor at the drop of an invitation that's no treason to label him a
> 'choirboy'. I'm sure that he had a perfectly healthy libido and a wide
> and varied selection of personal fantasies about the other members of
> the crew (which ones being up to individual taste, natch) - he just
> didn't (metaphorically) thrust his groin under people's noses in the
> way that Avon was wont to.
Exactly! Implying that Tarrant is a choirboy isn't meant to imply that he's a
eunuch choirboy. The youthful choirboys of my youthful school days had
perfectly healthy libidos. Choirboy, to me, implies exactly what you wrote
above. He has fantasies bu he doesn't thrust his groin in people's noses.
Consider the situation in ULTRAWORLD, once he accepted the situation, he got
into it rather enthusiastically. It was getting over that hump--realizing
that Dayna didn't mind that he'd put his groin in her nose--that gave him
pause.
> Maybe Tarrant thinks that women don't appreciate being eyed up like
> pieces of meat. Or maybe he's keeping his mind on the job at hand.
I would like to hope both are true. I find both to be admirable qualities in
social and professional associations with members of the opposite sex.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:37:08 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Roche limit
Message-ID: <001001be5fea$1e8d1120$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Iain said -
>>If there's enough interest, I propose the following. The group meets
>>somewhere with a flipchart and a bunch of pens. I'll kick off the
>>discussion, maybe starting with some of the things we've been discussing
>>on the list recently (etc.)
>>We'll do that for a
>>while, then go to the bar.
I think this would be interesting. I am intending to spend most of my time
at Redemption talking in the bar anyway.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 06:44:43 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] game stats and J. Caesar
Message-ID: <cf1076d3.36d3e62b@aol.com>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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This was accidentally sent to me instead of to the list. It's from Mistral.
-----------------------
Mac4781@aol.com wrote (to Russ Massey, who was replying to me):
> I hate to lower Tarrant's stats even further (especially since you judged
him
> way too low in both strength and intelligence <pout>),
I protest. *I* do not suggest lowering Tarrant's scores, merely raising
Avon's. I
respect (but do not fear) the Tarrant Nostra, because even if they have not
the
coolest hero (whoever that may be), they definitely have the best name; I
cannot
imagine that it could ever be topped; and I can imagine quite a lot of things
before breakfast. And just because I am not a cradle-robbing corrupter of
innocents, who am I to argue with their tastes? (Just how old was he on that
first
trip to Kairos, anyway? Although, I have long believed that the Federation has
a
successful, if expensive, cell regeneration treatment to renew the youth of
those
who can pay for it or earn it. Including top pilots, perhaps?) <eg>.
> but Avon was far more
> aware of his sexuality than Tarrant was.
My point exactly.
> Which is fine by me. A minority of
> us find choirboys to be much more appealing than rogue pirates.
Feel free. Many people prefer Pat Boone to Errol Flynn <smirk>. Although
Tarrant
has the more traditionally piratical wardrobe, which I *quite* like. And it
definitely looks better on him than it would on Avon or Vila -- or Cally, for
that
matter. Hmmm, might look good on Dayna, though. She's young and fierce enough
to
carry it off.
> I think a
> very telling sequence that shows the difference between Avon and Tarrant is
> how they "interact" with the bond bombshell in "Gold." Avon gives her a
look
> that has Alpha-male-in-heat written all over it. Tarrant interacts in the
> manner of that choirboy mentioned above. Even beyond the fact that he was
> faking drugged bliss.
Yes. Avon's rather irritating here, he ought to be thinking of Dayna.
Still, let's have no suggestion of depreciating Tarrant.
Mistral, who has just surprised herself by defending
The Boy Who *Really* Killed Blake
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
Shhhhhh! I told you not to troll!!!
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Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:16:47 -0800
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To: Mac4781@aol.com
Subject: Re: [B7L] game stats and J. Caesar
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Mac4781@aol.com wrote (to Russ Massey, who was replying to me):
> I hate to lower Tarrant's stats even further (especially since you judged
him
> way too low in both strength and intelligence <pout>),
I protest. *I* do not suggest lowering Tarrant's scores, merely raising
Avon's. I
respect (but do not fear) the Tarrant Nostra, because even if they have not
the
coolest hero (whoever that may be), they definitely have the best name; I
cannot
imagine that it could ever be topped; and I can imagine quite a lot of things
before breakfast. And just because I am not a cradle-robbing corrupter of
innocents, who am I to argue with their tastes? (Just how old was he on that
first
trip to Kairos, anyway? Although, I have long believed that the Federation has
a
successful, if expensive, cell regeneration treatment to renew the youth of
those
who can pay for it or earn it. Including top pilots, perhaps?) <eg>.
> but Avon was far more
> aware of his sexuality than Tarrant was.
My point exactly.
> Which is fine by me. A minority of
> us find choirboys to be much more appealing than rogue pirates.
Feel free. Many people prefer Pat Boone to Errol Flynn <smirk>. Although
Tarrant
has the more traditionally piratical wardrobe, which I *quite* like. And it
definitely looks better on him than it would on Avon or Vila -- or Cally, for
that
matter. Hmmm, might look good on Dayna, though. She's young and fierce enough
to
carry it off.
> I think a
> very telling sequence that shows the difference between Avon and Tarrant is
> how they "interact" with the bond bombshell in "Gold." Avon gives her a
look
> that has Alpha-male-in-heat written all over it. Tarrant interacts in the
> manner of that choirboy mentioned above. Even beyond the fact that he was
> faking drugged bliss.
Yes. Avon's rather irritating here, he ought to be thinking of Dayna.
Still, let's have no suggestion of depreciating Tarrant.
Mistral, who has just surprised herself by defending
The Boy Who *Really* Killed Blake
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
Shhhhhh! I told you not to troll!!!
--part0_919856683_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 11:55:57 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P)
Message-ID: <002501be5fec$d4997560$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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I am tempted to agree that the whole INTP/J distinction is worth discarding,
but not quite.
Here I am departing from any grounds but my own hunch. If I had to
distinguish between INTJ and INTP, here are some little hints I would look
for, based on my mates who fall into each category
INTP - likes big games like Risk and Monopoly, dancing to music (as long as
thinks no-one is looking), messing about on the computer inventing new
things, pure maths, reading. When you tell them something says 'Hmm, but..'
A bit out of it. Tends to let things run along.
INTJ - likes complex games like chess, listening to music, working on the
computer to complete projects, science, hasn't got time to read, when you
tell them something says 'I already knew that'. Not out of it at all. Tends
to get stuck in.
Oh here's another one. INTJ - hates getting into debt. INTP - quite
insouciant about it.
Where this gets us in relation to Avon I have no idea. I tend to think the
'impending sense of doom' thing is a bit of a red herring.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 07:17:33 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] game stats and J. Caesar
Message-ID: <61c48dbe.36d3eddd@aol.com>
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Mistral wrote:
> I protest. *I* do not suggest lowering Tarrant's scores, merely raising
Avon's.
Actually, *I* suggest lowering Tarrant's score. I've no problem that you want
Avon's higher. We both are in agreement that the relative scores are
disproportionate to their relative sexual achievements. It's Russ we have to
convince. :)
> I
> respect (but do not fear) the Tarrant Nostra, because even if they have not
> the coolest hero (whoever that may be), they definitely have the best name;
Ahhrrr, shucks, isn't that truth? Credit for our name goes to the evilly
clever Brooke Barker.
> And just because I am not a cradle-robbing corrupter of
> innocents, who am I to argue with their tastes?
Nay, you misunderstand our motives. We are here to protect and defend
Tarrant, not to ravish him. We leave that to the more experienced Servalan.
> Although, I have long believed that the Federation
> has a successful, if expensive, cell regeneration treatment to renew the
youth of
> those who can pay for it or earn it. Including top pilots, perhaps?) <eg>.
Oh, good, then we don't have to worry about Tarrant ending up as deteriorated
as Avon. <eg> If it's just a matter of credits, the TN will raise them.
> Feel free. Many people prefer Pat Boone to Errol Flynn <smirk>.
And some have more refined tastes than PB or EF.
>Although Tarrant
> has the more traditionally piratical wardrobe, which I *quite* like.
It's sooo interesting how tastes differ. I didn't care for his piratical
wardrobe. It was much too busy and distracted one from the breathtaking purity
of his form. The simply lines of his more futuristic costumes were much more
to my taste. Late fourth season, Death-Watch, and the Federation uniform are
probably my three favorites.
> Yes. Avon's rather irritating here, he ought to be thinking of Dayna.
It was just a momentary lapse.
> Mistral, who has just surprised herself by defending
> The Boy Who *Really* Killed Blake
The boy who really killed Blake. Oh no, not one of those. <loud sniffing>
The poor dear was battered beyond belief in Scorpio's crash. Then cruelly
tested by Blake when he should have been given medical treatment. As Mary
Ridge mentioned, if Tarrant had thought about the pain, he wouldn't have been
able to move. But Tarrant <more sniffing> set his pain aside and, at no small
risk to himself (he had no idea Blake and company wouldn't shoot him), broke
free so that he could warn his shipmates of danger. He was nothing short of
courageously heroic. It's too bad Blake isn't in any shape to appreciate the
posthumous Academy Award he earned for his acting job that completely fooled
Tarrant.
And even if Blake was negligent, there is some consolation in the fact that
Tarrant's shipmates appeared to care about him. I loved how Vila kept asking
Avon about Tarrant. And then there was the way all of his shipmates hovered
about Tarrant when they found him. And Avon's quick defense of his pilot. It
sends warm fuzzies all through me.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:14:07 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <199902240814_MC2-6BAC-C1B@compuserve.com>
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Kathryn wrote:
>I'm beginning to suspect that the INTx's are the
>only ones on this List *taking* the Myers-Briggs
>tests! Everyone else thinks the thread is boring,
>and isn't bothering.
I tried last time it came up, but my computer took against the relevant web
page and kept crashing every time I went there. Alison told me what I was,
but I've forgotten. And then I got bored.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:14:05 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <199902240814_MC2-6BAC-C19@compuserve.com>
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Mistral wrote:
>> He lies appallingly. See the end of Gambit.
>
>I think I have been the victim of a sound bite (or its e-list equivalent).
>The next sentence of my post starts: "Actually, I don't think he
does--..."
I know. I was backing you up, but prefer to err on the side of quoting too
little rather than too much. Phone time, you know.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:14:10 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: J. Caesar
Message-ID: <199902240814_MC2-6BAC-C1D@compuserve.com>
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Carol wrote:
>I think Jackie would make a wonderful Julius Caesar.
I thought about her, but she doesn't seem to fit the Shakespearean Caesar,
who's a bit ineffective. Nobody seemed quite self-controlled enough for
her... unless we give her Octavius, which means moving Steven. Now, if
Livia was in the play...
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 08:20:57 EST
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Non SF Fanfic
Message-ID: <ef21558b.36d3fcb9@aol.com>
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> Neil Faulkner wrote:
>
> >Or to put it another way - why is it that fanfic nearly always develops
> >around SF/Fantasy shows rather than soap operas or other real world
> >(contemporary or historical) dramas?
I don't know where you've been, Neil, but there are gigantic amounts of
Daytime Soap Opera fanfic out there on the internet...far more of it, in fact,
than most of the SF fandoms. If you don't believe me, do a search just under
the names "Jerry Jacks" cross referenced with "Brenda". These are just TWO
characters from one soap opera among a dozen. If you know where to look, there
is now fanfic about virtually every program that was ever on the air.
The first fanzine I ever produced was a TV Westerns fanzine, WIDE OPEN SPACES.
Over 10 issues, my 200 copy print run always sold out.
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 15:00:02 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jeroen J. Kwast" <jeroenkw@pampus.gns.getronics.nl>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (mailing list)
Subject: [B7L] Myers Briggs NOT!
Message-Id: <199902241400.PAA10183@pampus.gns.getronics.nl>
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>
> Kathryn wrote:
> >I'm beginning to suspect that the INTx's are the
> >only ones on this List *taking* the Myers-Briggs
> >tests! Everyone else thinks the thread is boring,
> >and isn't bothering.
>
You are right! It's very boring and a LOT of mail is deleted
before it is read. (a first on this list!)
Jeroen
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #79
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