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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 76
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Re: Roche limit
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness)
Re: [B7L] Constructive Criticism (was re: Fannishness)
Re: [B7L] Myer's Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
[B7L] Re: Julius Caesar
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness)
Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
[B7L] Avon: INTP or INTJ
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
[B7L] Re Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L]: Myers Briggs
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 11:35:15 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: "Jonathan" <jonathan@meanwhile.freeserve.co.uk>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <23CCCA45A90@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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>
> PS What would really be hard would be typing Dr Who's. I'd take #1 and #4 as
> intj (#4 's brilliant plan's that as often as not overlooked a single
> crucial piece of the real world would seem to be definitively intj to me,
> see Heiss' site), #5 as intp, #7as infj - but #6 ? and #2 ???
>
>
> I have thought about this. The unpleasant 6th Doctor is definately an ENTP,
a person who sees others as nothing more than a potential audience.
My cousin is one, and the contrast between him and #6 is amazing. The
5th is definately *not* an INTP, I should know because I am one. I
see him more as a feeling person, and he shows an inclination toward
self-sacrifice. Definately not an INTP thing! If any of the Doctors
is an INTP, I'd recon on the 7th due to his dubious ethical
predicaments. He sees the universe as something to be rebuilt and
altered according to his BIG PICTURE. This is certainly the aptitude
of the type known as Archtect. It's likely that the 4th Doctor was
the same, J's seem to be too tidy, and not as spontainious as P's.
(Avon was a P too, he got more P as the series progressed, witness
Gold.) I agree with you about #1, #2 is possibly a more pleasent
ENTP.
Vick
Brains but no traffic sense!
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:06:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Roche limit
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.990223115137.4396A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 22 Feb 1999, Judith Proctor wrote:
> Iain,
>
> Fancy a flip chart (or possibly an OHP depending on the room) and a time slot to
> talk about Roche's limit and any other good scientific conundrums in B7? (We
> couldn't get the images onto the web unless someone had a handy digital camera
> though)
>
> I don't know if many people would come (simply because it would be on the
> noticeboard and not in the programme book) but if there's interest, it would
> seem to be worth doing.
I'm game. I don't want to give a lecture or anything - for various
reasons, not least that I don't have time to prepare. However, I think a
workshop format could be fun. I could lead off the discussion on science
in B7, and the group as a whole could come up with whatever explanations,
rationalisations or barely plausible retcons present themselves.
I don't sit and ponder for hours on the physics of B7: the ramblings I
occasionally post to the list are made up as I go along, usually in
response to a point raised by someone else. In that spirit, I feel a
freewheeling discussion/argument rather than a lecture would be the best
way to go.
If there's enough interest, I propose the following. The group meets
somewhere with a flipchart and a bunch of pens. I'll kick off the
discussion, maybe starting with some of the things we've been discussing
on the list recently. Then I'll encourage the rest of the group to chime
in with their own theories or other science issues in the series. I'll
provide whatever input I can (based on two astrophysics degrees and
whatever textbooks I can manage to bring along), and everyone else will
bring their own knowledge, perspectives and questions. We'll do that for a
while, then go to the bar.
If there's not enough interest, I'll just go straight to the bar and skip
the intermediate stages.
How does that sound?
(This format will work best if at least one or two reasonably intelligent
and argumentative people show up. You know who you are.)
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:14:49 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: mistral@ptinet.net
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <23D74EC468C@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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> > The Avon personality cult was perpetuated by
> > Vila.
>
> Hmmm? I think this might be interesting if I understood it. Please
> elaborate.
>
I've given this a lot of thought recently, to the point of giving it
a chapter in my 'Avon: A Terrible Misunderstanding' book (which may
never see the light of day...An INTP problem is the dawn of
understanding of a concept marks the death of interest in said
concept. Oh well)
Vila was the kind of person to whom Public Relations comes naturally.
He saw the oppurtunity to use Avon as his personal guard dog by
selling the concept of Avon as a dangerous, nasty not-to-be-trusted
character to the ever earnest Blake. ('Don't mess with me Blake',
said metaVila, in the psychic realm during ''Spacefall'', 'Or I'll
set my nasty pitbull on you. You wouldn't like that now would
you..Eh?!')
Avon sat by and oversaw the set up, perusing a blank piece of paper
in the same way you might engross yourself in a menu card in a cafe
whilst listening to someone else's conversation. And all was well and
good, with both parties mutually empowered. Avon smiles to
himself....
This sets the course for the future.
Vick
Cold hands do not neccesitate a warm heart. My hand has frozen onto
the mouse..
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 04:32:55 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Message-ID: <36D29FF6.7FF19AD2@ptinet.net>
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Russ Massey wrote:
> The only major characters who use their allure as a weapon in B7 are
> Servalan and Tarrant (a little), I would say. I don't see Avon as
> pretending to seduce women to get what he wants.
Hmmm, Russ. Depends on how you define seduce. Did you see Aftermath? Power?
***Sarcophagus***? Avon's whole twisted relationship with Servalan? He
certainly was aware of his masculinity as a *weapon* in series' C and D--
and I can offer you several plausible explanations for the apparent change,
none of which have to do with Paul Darrow being allowed more artistic
license. (Which I won't bore you with unless you really want them.) Oh, and
actually the change started very slowly in series A, and only *accelerated*
after Blake left.
As for Tarrant-- he's 'young; brave; handsome;' but Servalan seduced him,
not the other way around, so I don't see it. In fact, he sort of seems to
become softer and more innocent as the show progresses.
Actually, Jenna did this allure thing, far more than Tarrant (Breakdown,
Bounty, The Keeper).
Oh, and one more thing-- the definition you cited says that sex appeal has
as much to do with attitude as with looks. Actually, having spent a lot of
my youth onstage in various capacities, and never having been much to look
at, I daresay it has far *more* to do with attitude than looks. Tarrant is
fairly unaware of his own appeal, whereas Avon obviously thinks he's hot
stuff-- a self-fulfilling prophecy (which IMHO accounts for a lot of
Servalan's appeal, too, because without the attitude, she wouldn't bother
with the clothes, hair, makeup.) Sexy is as sexy does. Tarrant appeals if
you like innocence; but pirates are (*very* generally statistically
speaking) more appealing to women than choirboys.
Which is interesting, because Jenna is more self-aware than Cally, and yet
Cally gets more attention than Jenna in fanfic. Hmm. Perhaps that's only in
the stuff written by women seeing an A/C subplot?
Well, that was a longer comment than this topic probably deserved, but, no
aspect of B7 is too trivial for dissection and examination under an electron
microscope. What's this I've heard about the implications for Federation
economics based on a Levi's tag on a pair of Jenna's trousers?
<yawn>
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
p.s. Vila's running out of feet!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:02:09 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness)
Message-ID: <02b601be5f28$9d693180$341fac3e@default>
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Mistral wrote:
<Yes, this was sort of my point, although apparently I didn't express my
thoughts clearly (big surprise ;-P). The proliferation of the type I was
referring to tends to make one suspicious of all original, plot-significant
(female) characters, particularly those written in 1st-person. And I do
*like*
original characters-- the rebellion would get dull if our heroes always
stayed
on the ship and never interacted with anybody else. I could be quite happy
about new characters, even a permanent addition to the crew complement, as
long as they were clearly *characters*, serving the purpose of *story*,
instead of one more bad cliché. But I've begun to wonder whether it isn't
safer for an author to just avoid new characters altogether, in order to
avoid
them being thought of as Mary-Sues (which would rather frighten me).>
I wrote one story (Hunter, in Star Two) which had no less than _four_
'original, plot-significant (female) characters' and at least as many
original plot-significant male ones. I don't think anyone mistook that for
a Mary-Sue.
Avoid new characters altogether? No No NO. Fanfic needs _more_ original
characters - and I mean characters, not stick figures with silly names that
slot into the requirements of the plot. Fanfic needs real people, real
places, and real culture. (Okay, I mean _imagined_ real people/places etc).
It needs invention and imagination. But does it get it? Not half as often
as it ought to. For Gruds's sake, there's a whole great galaxy beyond the
hull of the Liberator, but too many fan writers don't want to know about
it - deliberately. They actively resist acknowledging its existence, or
speculating on what it might be like, let alone how it works. They seem to
think that the series characters are the only ones of any significance, that
where these characters are, and when, is of minimal importance, or no
importance at all. This deliberate blinkering of perspective is the single
biggest defect of the body of fan fiction as a whole. It turns fanfic into
the literature of the ideologically displaced in search of a non-existent
locus; it betrays their quest for absolute values that can no longer be
considered absolute and never had any value. Fan fiction of this sort ends
up being the antithesis of the very series it is supposed to be celebrating.
And it scares the living shit out of me.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:17:15 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Constructive Criticism (was re: Fannishness)
Message-ID: <02b701be5f28$9e5d5580$341fac3e@default>
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Russ wrote:
>>It isn't always like that. I've had some extremely helpful input from
>>Judith P, Russ Massey and others over the years. And Judith isn't
>>_obviously_ stupider than me...
>
>Hmm... Meaning *what* exactly. Nope. I must be too stupid to work
>out if I'm being insulted there :)
You're being a tad paranoid. If I'm going to insult you, I'll do it after
Redemption, not before.
>>Mind you, nobody's yet managed to tell me how to construct a manageable
>>plot. That's how most of my fanfic ends up unfinished.
>>
>If anyone enlightens you then put them in touch with me next. One
>word of advice - know where you're intending to end up. The
>beginning and middle can take care of themselves as long as have some
>end point to steer them towards. More often than not my stories that
>are unfinished are the ones that I wrote with no clear idea of the
>climax.
I always know where I want to end up, it's the getting there that's the
problem. Most of my plots seem to founder on information flow - who knows
what, to what degree, and how do they come to know it. Since many of the
main actors in my plots are not individuals but organisations -
corporations, intelligence agencies, military bodies or government
departments - lurking in the background, I presume them to act sensibly on
the basis of whatever information they have, so What They Know is crucial.
For them not to act sensibly requires extensive subplotting and too many
loose ends. One story (remember 'Katanga'?) had me trying to reconcile the
conflicting motivations of Federation Central Security, Space Command, the
Auron secret service, a planetary liberation front and the repressive
government it was trying to overthrow. A fairly typical brew with me.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:31:12 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myer's Briggs
Message-ID: <02b801be5f28$9f3f2a00$341fac3e@default>
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>Neil Faulkner wrote:
>
>>What the f--k is Myers Briggs?
>
>A personality classification system. See:
>
> http://www.hronline.com/lib/recruit/faq-mbti.html
> http://keirsey.com/
> http://typelogic.com/
>
>for some basic info.
>
> - Lisa
Well, I took a brief look and answered a load of incredibly awkward
questions, and apparently I'm an INTP for all that's worth. So I'm a wierdo
loser haunted by an impending sense of failure, am I?
Er, yeah, come to think of it, I probably am. Isn't life a bitch...
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:25:33 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <23DA2F85ED7@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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> It's interesting also, when you look at fanfic, that the authors
seem
> to be unconciously placing Avon in the "J" camp whenever they describe
> his cabin -- it's always neat and uncluttered. Usually set up as a
> contrast with Blake's which is inevitably more messy.
You desprately need to read my novella 'Tomb of Ezron' when it comes
out! As I recall, didn't I offer you it to proof read last year?
>
> On the other hand, there's the Sopron. Except that that's the only
> time we see him so absent-minded-professor-ish.
So what about 'Headhunter'?
>
> Oh well, the only thing that's clear is that he's borderline.
>
Vick
Judgement makes for blindness to possibilities.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:30:54 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: mistral@ptinet.net
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <23DBA295A75@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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> I feel so much smarter today than yesterday, when
> I didn't have a strong opinion on this. Hmm, LOL. J behaviour-- but I'm a P!)
>
>You only have me to blame.
Vick
Too much E-Mail, so little time...
But time being infinite...
What the hell!
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 07:59:30 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Julius Caesar
Message-ID: <199902230759_MC2-6B7C-5FBA@compuserve.com>
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Mistral wrote:
>Go on, then, cast the rest of it! I vote for Michael
>doing Mark Antony this time
Funnily enough, I started trying to cast it while cooking dinner, and did
eventually decide to give Michael the part of Antony, partly because I
thought it would be a nice change for him to get a rather glamorous role.
Even though I happen to hate Antony. I was originally pencilling in Steven
Pacey for MA, but then decided to shift him to Octavius, as the young
interloper... thanks, Carol, for confirming that choice too.
Well, Jan Chappell would be perfect for Portia, which I suppose leaves
Sally Knyvette with Calphurnia. Blanking on who could be Caesar, but then
that's a minor role. David Jackson would be nice as Strato, who is very
decent about assisting in Brutus's suicide, but that's an extremely minor
part - maybe he could double it with something else. He might be Cassius's
friend Titinius too. Or Ligarius, the conspirator with a headache.
Actually, if we get into doubling, Michael wouldn't be bad casting for
Casca, either. Or, as I've run out of female parts, Glynis Barber can do
it (I can see her pretending not to understand Greek, and preferring action
to words, though being scared in the storm seems less likely). Josette
Simon can be Young Cato, whose part mainly consists of dying bravely in
battle. Valentine Dyall for Cicero? And maybe Stratford Johns for Caesar?
Something about the tribunes, Flavius and Marullus, who appear in the
first scene and then get executed, suggests a parallel with Ravella and
Richie, so (consulting my programme guide) Gillian Bailey and Alan Butler
can do them. Peter Tuddenham has to be the Soothsayer.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 12:57:53 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <23E2D034B5F@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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> Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:37:33 -0600
> To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
> From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
> Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
> mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>
> >Somebody mentioned the Sopron before, as evidence of INTJs 'work before
> play'
> >attitude, but I've always thought that bit indicated the INTPs 'work=play'
> >attitude.
Blake's joke in 'Orac' refering to Enzor's flying thing sums this up.
He knew Avon's 'work before play' ethic!!!
Muller's robot in 'Headhunter' is another really good example. Avon
never really saw as a weapon, only as a toy for his own amusement.
This is a typical INTP attitude, and aggravating to the sensates
around him. This is why Tarrant and Dayna saw that they had to save
Avon from himself by destroying the robot; even though Avon,
competent engineer though he was would have suceeded in his plan.
During that 4th series I pity Avon's predicament. He is surrounded by
concrete thinking sensates; his only soulmate being Orac, and his
only mindmate being Servalan.
Living without the influence of other intuitives is truly
soul-destroying.
Vick
> >Would you be so kind as to give me the reference for that, please?
>
> The "impending failure" bit is from the INTP profile on the
> <http://typelogic.com/> site. I've seen the same idea brought up in other
> places, in particular when discussing how to tell an INTP from an INTJ --
> admittedly often difficult, as the basic personalities are very similar and
> many INTPs and INTJs seem to hover around the middle of the P-J scale
> anyhow. To sum it up, INTJs know damned well that they're always right;
> INTPs aren't quite so sure, and they waffle and second-guess themselves.
> Watching Avon in "Horizon", for instance, trying to convince himself that
> he can just take off and leave the others, and finally going down after
> them, I see an INTP.
>
> >I very much appreciated your comment on why Servalan is an E. Many things are
> >now much clearer.
>
> I liked this bit, from the ENTJ description on the typelogic.com site:
>
> TRADEMARK: -- "I'm really sorry you have to die." (I realize this is an
> overstatement. However, most Fs and other gentle souls usually chuckle
> knowingly at this description.)
>
> - Lisa
> _____________________________________________________________
> Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com
>
> Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
> New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:10:12 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <23E617604D3@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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I tend to see INTJs as Seven of Nine fron Voyager.
However, some of the psychodrama episodes, eg Raven and One endows
her with P-ish tendances.
Any comments?
Vick
INTP
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:03:13 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <23E43F33192@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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> Reply-to: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
> From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
> To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
> Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:11:05 -0000
>
> Jonathon's list was good. But really you should also show a list of
> fictional INTPs too for comparison. FWIW I put Sherlock Holmes and Spock as
> INTP.
>
Spock an INTP?
I've never seen a rational Vulcan!!!
Vick the INTP
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:27:20 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D2ACB7.8D8A827A@ptinet.net>
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VJC wrote:
> > Many things are much clearer now. Are you any relation to the inventor of Windex?
> >
>
> What is Windex when it's out?
>
> Vick
>
> There is a gap in my knowledge.
Mine too, apparently. Windex is a glass cleaning solution. Would that be different out
than in?
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:14:50 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: mistral@ptinet.net
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <23E757219AD@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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> Many things are much clearer now. Are you any relation to the inventor of Windex?
>
What is Windex when it's out?
Vick
There is a gap in my knowledge.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:38:21 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: mistral@ptinet.net
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <23ED9AD20A4@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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>
> Actually, I was calling Js arrogant and defusing any backlash at the
> same time. I love being INTP, especially now that I realize that it's
> Avon too. I have seen his mistakes, and know how to avoid them, so I have
> hopes of doing better.
One problem with this theory. The past is behind us and we never
learn by our mistakes like the SJs do.
And the only problem I know of with being P is
> that we rarely finish anything, which is why I'm working aggressively on
> adopting some J behaviours. More of an answer than you wanted, I know.
> Ask an NT a question, get a lecture.
Ask Orac, if you can assign a type to a computer, I'd tentatively
call him (it) an INTP too.
In my personal take on Jungian psychology I've invented the Orac
complex to explain this. An Orac complex consists of the tendancy
toward longwindedness, giving unprovoked lectures, supercilliousness
and unreliable claivoyancy based on intuative (inner) extrapolation
of undigested facts. The holistic direction of future events is much
more important to an Orac complex sufferer that studying the mistakes
of the past. An OC sufferer may actually belive her/himself to be the
proverbial butterfly that flaps its wings in Hong Kong and a tornado
flattens half of central America, due to their ability to influence
the paths of others by doing very little but exploying their subtle
powers of suggestion. Individual people are of no importance other
than as conduits for information. Some OC sufferers may exhibit
limited telepathic ability, but due to the inner noise levels of
excessive thinking, true links are seldom made. One confirmed
sufferer is Dirk Gently in the books by Douglas Adams. On the whole,
OC sufferers live by their own solopsistic rule book, perpetuate
myths about themselves by denying them and take everyone else as
utter intolerable idiots.
Vick.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:44:03 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Message-ID: <36D2B0A2.E957D9F6@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Russ Massey wrote:
> It's always helpful to get some input
> from fans who specialise in one of the characters that you might not
> do. I tend to concentrate on the first two seasons, so need reminding of
> Soolin's virtues occasionally :)
Actually, my interests tend to cycle from season to season, so I generally
insist to myself that I start and go through from beginning to end, over and
over, and find that I am usually pining for the seasons that I am not currently
watching. I keep wondering whether Jenna would get along with Soolin and Dayna,
or how the dynamic would shift if you had Tarrant with series A Blake and Avon.
(I tend to think that Avon would go suicidal). However, Soolin is currently my
favorite female character, and I don't like to see her slighted, as she is
terribly underused in my (admittedly limited) experience of fanfic, and has so
*much* potential.
> >I notice you rather cleverly avoided giving Avon an acting score :D
> >
> I suppose he does play a role occasionally, as when the Liberator is
> taken by Tarrant and the troopers, or on the Princess. I think he's
> probably just using his default skill from his high IQ though.
Actually, I was thinking of 'Assassin' when he's trying to get caught. I can
never decide if that bit of truly horrendous mugging is P.D. having a bad day,
or P.D. doing a really good job of Avon doing some really bad acting.
> >A pity I've seemed to have missed the other scores. I'd have loved to see
> >them, particularly Jenna, Vila and Blake.
> >
> I can forward them to you if you'd like - just let me know.
Please, very much. I shall only rant if you have slighted Vila mercilessly.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:58:19 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D2B3FB.5D87747A@ptinet.net>
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VJC wrote:
> In my personal take on Jungian psychology I've invented the Orac
> complex to explain this. An Orac complex consists of
<snip way good stuff>
but you left out the ability to trace a line through the pattern of infinity--
without giving any actual thought to the consequences of same. <smirk>
Mistral
INTP/J with OC
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:02:14 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: mistral@ptinet.net
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <23F3F854111@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
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> > What is Windex when it's out?
> >
> > Vick
> >
> > There is a gap in my knowledge.
>
> Mine too, apparently. Windex is a glass cleaning solution. Would that be different out
> than in?
Regional slang, I'm afraid. I've tried to cut back, it detracts from
my RADA British accent.
Do you live on e-mail, or do you, like myself not know enough
real INTPs ?
The INTP list tends to think that there are rather less INTPs in the
world than the current population of the UK. That's about 1%, not 3%
as rationals only comprise between 5-7% altogether.
Actually, I only know one INTP other than myself, and about two
suspects.
Vick
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:03:32 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Mary Sues (was Re: [B7L] Fannishness)
Message-ID: <702ad572.36d2b534@aol.com>
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Neil wrote:
> Avoid new characters altogether? No No NO. Fanfic needs _more_ original
> characters - and I mean characters, not stick figures with silly names that
> slot into the requirements of the plot. Fanfic needs real people, real
> places, and real culture.
Ahhh... Now I understand. Neil just doesn't get it. He hasn't understood
that fanfiction is a revolutionary form of literature that allows writers to
write what they want to write and read. Original characters, magnificent
vistas, political environments, rich cultures have long existed in the world
of pro-literature. But that obviously wasn't entirely satisfactory to some
writers/readers and so fanfic was born. Primarily developed by women writing
what women want to read.
> They seem to
> think that the series characters are the only ones of any significance,
that
> where these characters are, and when, is of minimal importance, or no
> importance at all.
And there's something wrong with that? If that's the primary interest of the
writer/reader--and judging by the proliferation of such fanfiction, it does
seem to meet the needs of the many--why can't it exist as a valid, acceptable
form of storytelling? Fanzines can run four times the cost of a pro book with
the same word count. There's a reason people are willing to pay that much
more, and it isn't because they want original characters, etc., etc.
> And it scares the living shit out of me.
There's an easy solution to that. Return to the safe, cheaper world of
professional books. And leave the revolution to us.
What scares the living shit out of me is that your opinion will influence even
one fledgling fanfiction writer into believing that what he/she might want to
write is inferior or wrong. Fanfiction should have the scope that allows
people who want grandiose vistas to write them. And if fans want two
characters holding a conversation in a room where the furniture isn't even
described, that's also their prerogative. Or Mary Sues. Or wallows.
What fanfiction shouldn't be is a return to the dark ages, where writers feel
compelled to meet anyone else's definition of what their stories should be.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:11:04 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: mistral@ptinet.net
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Message-ID: <23F64F7689E@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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> > The only major characters who use their allure as a weapon in B7 are
> > Servalan and Tarrant (a little), I would say. I don't see Avon as
> > pretending to seduce women to get what he wants.
You're right. Switching strands, as an intuative Avon would have no
idea at all about his physical attractiveness. all that was real to
him was his intelligence.
> Hmmm, Russ. Depends on how you define seduce. Did you see Aftermath? Power?
> ***Sarcophagus***? Avon's whole twisted relationship with Servalan? He
> certainly was aware of his masculinity as a *weapon* in series' C and D--
> and I can offer you several plausible explanations for the apparent change,
> none of which have to do with Paul Darrow being allowed more artistic
> license. (Which I won't bore you with unless you really want them.) Oh, and
> actually the change started very slowly in series A, and only *accelerated*
> after Blake left.
Paul's OTT acting, I'm afraid was all it was. That's why I have no
intention of reading Avon:ATA. (especially after having the
misfortune of sampling The Eye) I don't think that Paul ever really
understood Avon, though now, judging by his interview on T7FC he may
be getting the hang of it. Read my LOC in Horizon #40, if they're
bothered to print it.
Vick
I like Paul - he's nice.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:15:00 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon: INTP or INTJ
Message-ID: <336dc2ea.36d2b7e4@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 99-02-23 02:04:35 EST, Nina wrote:
<< Not necessarily. If he's near the center of the scale, the J
characteristics
could be more a habit of his training as a programmer. OTOH, he's WAY more
of
a planning type than Blake...
>>
I would put Avon on the border between INTP and INTJ. Which side of the line
he falls on would depend on the day, his mood, how difficult Orac is being,
etc.
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 14:34:47 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: mistral@ptinet.net
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <23FCA3D1956@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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> From: mistral@ptinet.net
> Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 05:58:19 -0800
> To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
> Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
> but you left out the ability to trace a line through the pattern of infinity--
> without giving any actual thought to the consequences of same. <smirk>
>
I didn't need to. I mentioned the holistic approach.
Are you a sufferer as well?
Vick
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 06:47:00 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D2BF63.3F18F142@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
VJC wrote re the Orac Complex:
> > but you left out the ability to trace a line through the pattern of infinity--
> > without giving any actual thought to the consequences of same. <smirk>
> >
>
> I didn't need to. I mentioned the holistic approach.
>
> Are you a sufferer as well?
>
> Vick
Can't you tell from my posts? However, I don't think Soolin would appreciate the
suggestion that the holistic approach implies disregard for consequences. :D
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:58:06 -0000
From: "Jonathan" <jonathan@meanwhile.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <001501be6006$170004a0$e551883e@ming>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE6006.15EBD580"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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"INTPs are relatively easy-going and amenable to most anything until =
their principles are violated, about which they may become outspoken and =
inflexible. They prefer to return, however, to a reserved albeit benign =
ambiance, not wishing to make spectacles of themselves. " [Joe Butt, =
typelogic website]
- this is Avon ? Vick look at the fmous intp list there and show me =
*one* person who reminds you of Avon. ( Einstein ? Jung ? )Whereas :
"To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an aura of "definiteness", of =
self-confidence. This self-confidence, sometimes mistaken for simple =
arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a very specific rather =
than a general nature; its source lies in the specialized knowledge =
systems that most INTJs start building at an early age. When it comes to =
their own areas of expertise -- and INTJs can have several -- they will =
be able to tell you almost immediately whether or not they can help you, =
and if so, how. INTJs know what they know, and perhaps still more =
importantly, they know what they don't know. INTJs are perfectionists, =
with a seemingly endless capacity for improving upon anything that takes =
their interest. What prevents them from becoming chronically bogged down =
in this pursuit of perfection is the pragmatism so characteristic of the =
type: INTJs apply (often ruthlessly) the criterion "Does it work?" to =
everything from their own research efforts to the prevailing social =
norms. This in turn produces an unusual independence of mind, freeing =
the INTJ from the constraints of authority, convention, or sentiment for =
its own sake."
and=20
"Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's =
Achilles heel. While they are capable of caring deeply for others =
(usually a select few), and are willing to spend a great deal of time =
and effort on a relationship, the knowledge and self-confidence that =
make them so successful in other areas can suddenly abandon or mislead =
them in interpersonal situations. This happens in part because many =
INTJs do not readily grasp the social rituals; for instance, they tend =
to have little patience and less understanding of such things as small =
talk and flirtation (which most types consider half the fun of a =
relationship). To complicate matters, INTJs are usually extremely =
private people, and can often be naturally impassive as well, which =
makes them easy to misread and misunderstand. Perhaps the most =
fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make =
sense. :-) "
Much agreement on the Dr's, except I'd call Colin Baker's (rather =
brilliant) creation difficult rather than unpleasant.
Jonathan
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<BODY bgColor=3D#c0c0c0>
<DIV><B><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman">
<P>"INTPs are relatively easy-going and amenable to most anything =
until=20
their principles are violated, about which they may become outspoken and =
inflexible. They prefer to return, however, to a reserved albeit benign=20
ambiance, not wishing to make spectacles of themselves. " [Joe =
Butt,=20
typelogic website]</P></B>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>- this is =
Avon ? Vick look=20
at the fmous intp list there and show me *one* person who reminds you of =
Avon. (=20
Einstein ? Jung ? )Whereas :</FONT></P>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3></FONT>"<B><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an =
aura of=20
"definiteness", of self-confidence. This self-confidence, =
sometimes=20
mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a =
very=20
specific rather than a general nature; its source lies in the =
specialized=20
knowledge systems that most INTJs start building at an early age. When =
it comes=20
to their own areas of expertise -- and INTJs can have several -- they =
will be=20
able to tell you almost immediately whether or not they can help you, =
and if so,=20
how. INTJs know what they know, and perhaps still more importantly, they =
know=20
what they don't know. INTJs are perfectionists, with a seemingly endless =
capacity for improving upon anything that takes their interest. What =
prevents=20
them from becoming chronically bogged down in this pursuit of perfection =
is the=20
pragmatism so characteristic of the type: INTJs apply (often ruthlessly) =
the=20
criterion "Does it work?" to everything from their own =
research=20
efforts to the prevailing social norms. This in turn produces an unusual =
independence of mind, freeing the INTJ from the constraints of =
authority,=20
convention, or sentiment for its own sake.</FONT></B>"</P>
<P>and </P>
<P><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3>"<B><FONT=20
face=3D"Times New Roman">Personal relationships, particularly romantic =
ones, can=20
be the INTJ's Achilles heel. While they are capable of caring deeply for =
others=20
(usually a select few), and are willing to spend a great deal of time =
and effort=20
on a relationship, the knowledge and self-confidence that make them so=20
successful in other areas can suddenly abandon or mislead them in =
interpersonal=20
situations. This happens in part because many INTJs do not readily grasp =
the=20
social rituals; for instance, they tend to have little patience and less =
understanding of such things as small talk and flirtation (which most =
types=20
consider half the fun of a relationship). To complicate matters, INTJs =
are=20
usually extremely private people, and can often be naturally impassive =
as well,=20
which makes them easy to misread and misunderstand. Perhaps the most =
fundamental=20
problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense. :-)=20
</FONT></B>"</FONT></P>
<P>Much agreement on the Dr's, except I'd call Colin Baker's (rather =
brilliant)=20
creation difficult rather than unpleasant.</P>
<P> </P>
<P>Jonathan</P></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
------=_NextPart_000_0012_01BE6006.15EBD580--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 15:21:59 GMT0BST
From: "VJC" <csm80316@port.ac.uk>
To: "Jonathan" <jonathan@meanwhile.freeserve.co.uk>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <240939F71AC@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
> From: "Jonathan" <jonathan@meanwhile.freeserve.co.uk>
> To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
> Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 14:58:06 -0000
> Subject: [B7L] Re Myers Briggs
> "INTPs are relatively easy-going and amenable to most anything until their principles are violated, about which they may become outspoken and inflexible. They prefer to return, however, to a reserved>
> - this is Avon ? Vick look at the fmous intp list there and show me *one* person who reminds you of Avon. ( Einstein ? Jung ? )Whereas :
Avon was a stressed man in a position he should never have been in.
Put another INTP in his situation, and expect the same result.
> "To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an aura of "definiteness", of self-confidence. This self-confidence, sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a very spe>
> and
I wish you knew how to send a decently formatted e-mail.
> "Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ's Achilles heel. While they are capable of caring deeply for others (usually a select few), and are willing to spend a great deal >
> Much agreement on the Dr's, except I'd call Colin Baker's (rather brilliant) creation difficult rather than unpleasant.
He was unpleasent for Peri, but then Peri was less than pleasant
herself.
>
>
> Jonathan
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:41:33 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990223163857.6511C-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Iain said:
>I strongly support this suggestion, mainly because Una's just back from
>NZ and a huge discussion of Myers-Briggs classifications would be such a
>lovely welcome-back present for her.
<Head raised millimetres from desk, bleary eye opened>
Git.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:49:38 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990223164651.6511D-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
mistral@ptinet.net writes:
>>So how would you recognise us INFPs? An Avon who never lost his teddy
>>bear?
and Calle responded:
>Hmmm. The teddy bear my father gave me when I was a couple of days old
>*is* sitting on a shelf a meter and a half behind me...
Calle, that's just so sweet! <dabs eyes>
So am I the *only* INFJ around here? Anyone else 'The Counsellor'? How
depressing - I get to be naff 3rd season Cally rather than kick-ass
1st season Cally.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 16:54:35 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990223165105.6511E-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Alison said:
>anyway Una likes MBTI. :-P
Ah, yes, that use of the word 'likes' to mean: will happily have a huge
argument about it being hugely intellectually questionable. Tho' being an
opinionated type, that's not stretching the meaning too far... But is is
very INFJ?
Una
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 17:12:30 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]: Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990223171122.6511G-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Jonathan said:
>PS What would really be hard would be typing Dr Who's. I'd take #1 and #4
>as intj (#4 's brilliant plan's that as often as not overlooked a single
>crucial piece of the real world would seem to be definitively intj to me,
>see Heiss' site), #5 as intp, #7as infj - but #6 ? and #2 ???
Hurrah! Another INFJ!! And the McCoy Doctor too! No wonder I liked him.
Una
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End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #76
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