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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 75
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Fannishness (The Volcano Indoctrination Strategy)
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Mary-Sues
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
[B7L] Run for the hills...
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
[B7L] Guards! Guards! at Darlington CT
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
[B7L] Seska
Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:52:08 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fannishness (The Volcano Indoctrination Strategy)
Message-ID: <36D225E7.1F34@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> My interpretation of Avon's attitude to the others is that he (secretly and
> very-nearly-subconciously) hero-worships Blake, but that Vila is his real best
> friend/sibling/playmate
All right! Someone else who thinks this way. Avon admired and respected
Blake, I have no doubt. He was always torn between not trusting what
Blake stood for, and trusting the man himself. He was amazed at how
Blake could make the most unlikely things work out okay.
But for a buddy, he'd pick Vila.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:55:42 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D226BD.41A6@jps.net>
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>
> > > So how would you recognise us INFPs?
> > An Avon who never lost his teddy bear?
Healers. They are the ones who are always there for you, that's how you
know them.
--Avona, a INTJ who gets her rough edges smoothed by an INFP husband. :)
> Please pay no attention to the panda in the fridge.
Calle, is that a Ramna 1/2 reference?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:13:38 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D22AF2.48F2@jps.net>
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Kathryn Andersen wrote:
>
> On Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 02:05:37PM -0000, Alison Page wrote:
> > Interesting that all three enthusiasts (so far) are NTP (I am ENTP). I think
> > Pat and Lisa are keen and I guess they are NTJ (correct me if I'm wrong
> > ladies)
>
> I'm one of these (seemingly common here) INTJ's. Strong I, middling J,
> but it seems like every second time I take the test I come up as INFJ
> instead! I suppose that accounts for the fact that I'm a computer
> programmer who writes poetry.
> (And that the Blake's 7 characters I most empathize with are Avon and
> Cally.)
Are we twins seperated at birth?
>
> >From my experience, I think INTJ's aggravate each other's
> characteristics in close proximity. I recall six months when my
> second brother and I were looking af
Yes. Partly a kind of competition, I think. INTJ's want to be the
smartest, best, most informed, etc. And want other people to know it. So
they spiral in competition. I definitely saw this in my Calculus class
in high school.
ter the house when my parents were
> overseas, and he's most probably an INTJ type (definitely more T than
> F... he's *very* calmly unemotional about things -- I have never seen
> him get upset) -- we spent a great deal of time doing "pedant jokes";
> that is, making a joke of correcting each other's meaning. *We* knew
> it was a joke, but we got into the habit of correcting everyone else,
> and they didn't take it as a joke.
Same thing in the calculus class-- the INTJ's made such a pasttime of
getting into quarrels over abstract subjects, and picking on each other,
and finding proofs that 'I'm right, nyah, nyah', that all the other
girls in the class, not being INTJs, dropped out thinking people were
being mean to them. We just didn't want them to feel left out!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:44:04 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D22403.9DA775E0@ptinet.net>
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Lisa Williams wrote:
> mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>
> >Somebody mentioned the Sopron before, as evidence of INTJs 'work before
> play'
> >attitude, but I've always thought that bit indicated the INTPs 'work=play'
> >attitude.
>
> I'm associating it more with the tendency of INTPs to get all fascinated
> with some intellectual tangent and to stay on it, almost obsessively, to
> the exclusion of all else, until they fully understand it. INTPs focus more
> on what is fascinating at the moment, regardless of the big picture. From
> Keirsey & Bates (_Please Understand Me_): "INTPs can become obsessed with
> analysis. Once caught up in a thought process, that thought process seems
> to have a will of its own for INTPs, and they persevere until the issue is
> comprehended in all its complexity." Whenever I read that, Avon and his pet
> rock come to mind.
Actually, Lisa, I think that's exactly what I meant, although once again, I've not
been clear (yet another big surprise :D). INTPs like to explore; exploring is fun;
exploring is also science, a field lots of INTPs go into. INTPs could start a group
called 'Obsessives R Us' (an American joke; I don't know if the rest of the world
has Toys R Us stores), because the idea/object/activity/person of current interest
will occupy the thoughts of the INTP until it is sufficiently understood; then the
INTP will say 'Oh, I see' and throw it away. With this kind of attitude, it's
crucial for the INTP to choose a career carefully, because the depth of the INTP's
interest in his field will be the thing that dictates his level of success. Some
INTPs know a little about a lot of things -- we (including myself, but not
necessarily anybody else on the list) are called dilettantes <g>, and are rarely
extremely successful; other INTPs are lucky enough to find a field with enough
facets and possibilities to fascinate them for a lifetime -- these geniuses are
called names like Einstein, etc., and Avon looks to be one of those. I was trying
to say that his behaviour with the Sopron looks to be undertaken as the love of
knowledge (play) coinciding with a practical pursuit (work); always the best choice
(IMHO) for an INTP. I meant to be agreeing with you, not disagreeing. Still do, as
a matter of fact.
INTPishly Obsessing re this list,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 19:52:09 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D225E8.76FA2B7@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Lisa Williams wrote:
> Penny Dreadful wrote:
>
> >Not to say they were losers, but I'd like a role model with a bit more
> >pizzazz. And better hair.
>
> Well, I've handed you Avon on a silver-studded platter as an INTP. What
> more could you ask for?
>
> OK, so he *was* a loser. Picky, picky, picky...
But a loser with pizzazz. And arguably better hair than Einstein. ;-P
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:35:44 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D23020.178E@jps.net>
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>
> I don't think so -- I think Avon is someone who is putting up a pretty good
> INTJ front, but it isn't real. Some of his behavior is pure,
> state-of-the-art INTP (his fascination with the Sopron, for exmaple; that
> was *pure* INTP, and not INTJ). And there's the bit about INTPs having "the
> haunting sense of impending failure." I just don't think Avon *really* has
> the classic INTJ arrogant self-assurance. He tries very hard to project
> that appearance, certainly, but I always see that "sense of impending
> failure" lurking below it. "An INTP arguing a point may very well be trying
> to convince himself as much as his opposition." -- I see that a lot in Avon.
He's not strongly typed, in that respect, I suppose. I'm a 5/10 J-- the
test I took makes J the default, I guess, though I tested 6/10 the
second time. That sense of failure is my bugaboo.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 20:06:14 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D22935.8F22B938@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Avona wrote:
> My husband says the reason people like me, even though I'm INTJ, is that
> I can't be phoney for social purposes, so when I say something nice,
> they know I'm being utterly sincere.
One of the *most* attractive NT traits -- at least to other NTs!Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:01:55 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D23643.7B29@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Yipes! I'm suddenly convinced I'm not a 'J' at all! The dilettente is a
perfect description of me. I want to understand everything, and I've
_never_ been able to bring myself to throughoughly specialize, thus
falling neatly into the 'loser' commentary made before about INTPs. I
also have a negative attitude towards luck-- I believe in Murphy's law,
and my plans tend to crawl to a halt as I try to plan for every
concievable failure to occur without derailing my dreams. On the other
hand, I don't see me as being a poor planner-- I see myself as being in
a universe that is too damn chaotic, which makes me irritable-- I
disagree with other's who don't take Murphy's law into account at all,
and show the INTJ traits-- oh, no, I'm caught in a loop. Where do I fit
in?
Oh yes, 5/10 on the J/P scale.
I'll shut up now, I'm even annoying myself.
mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>
> Lisa Williams wrote:
>
> > mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
> >
> > >Somebody mentioned the Sopron before, as evidence of INTJs 'work before
> > play'
> > >attitude, but I've always thought that bit indicated the INTPs 'work=play'
> > >attitude.
> >
> > I'm associating it more with the tendency of INTPs to get all fascinated
> > with some intellectual tangent and to stay on it, almost obsessively, to
> > the exclusion of all else, until they fully understand it. INTPs focus more
> > on what is fascinating at the moment, regardless of the big picture. From
> > Keirsey & Bates (_Please Understand Me_): "INTPs can become obsessed with
> > analysis. Once caught up in a thought process, that thought process seems
> > to have a will of its own for INTPs, and they persevere until the issue is
> > comprehended in all its complexity." Whenever I read that, Avon and his pet
> > rock come to mind.
>
> Actually, Lisa, I think that's exactly what I meant, although once again, I've not
> been clear (yet another big surprise :D). INTPs like to explore; exploring is fun;
> exploring is also science, a field lots of INTPs go into. INTPs could start a group
> called 'Obsessives R Us' (an American joke; I don't know if the rest of the world
> has Toys R Us stores), because the idea/object/activity/person of current interest
> will occupy the thoughts of the INTP until it is sufficiently understood; then the
> INTP will say 'Oh, I see' and throw it away. With this kind of attitude, it's
> crucial for the INTP to choose a career carefully, because the depth of the INTP's
> interest in his field will be the thing that dictates his level of success. Some
> INTPs know a little about a lot of things -- we (including myself, but not
> necessarily anybody else on the list) are called dilettantes <g>, and are rarely
> extremely successful; other INTPs are lucky enough to find a field with enough
> facets and possibilities to fascinate them for a lifetime -- these geniuses are
> called names like Einstein, etc., and Avon looks to be one of those. I was trying
> to say that his behaviour with the Sopron looks to be undertaken as the love of
> knowledge (play) coinciding with a practical pursuit (work); always the best choice
> (IMHO) for an INTP. I meant to be agreeing with you, not disagreeing. Still do, as
> a matter of fact.
>
> INTPishly Obsessing re this list,
> Mistral
> --
> "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:09:12 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D237F7.42F0@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Alison Page wrote:
>
> Jonathon's list was good. But really you should also show a list of
> fictional INTPs too for comparison. FWIW I put Sherlock Holmes and Spock as
> INTP.
Sherlock Holmes insecure, with a sense of impending failure? He only
admitted one mental superior, his brother. He picked an occupation
fraught with danger. In almost every case, he launches forward with a
sense of his inevitable victory.
Love of knowlege for it's own sake? This is the man who did not wish to
store anything in his 'brain-attic- that would not be useful to his
career. He spent years working on honing his skills so he could be the
world's first private consulting detective.
And he had the arrogance, the sense of infallibility to such a degree,
he knew it could be a hazard, and requested that should he get too sure
of himself on an unproven theory, that his friend Watson should say to
him "Norbury" to remind him of one of his most colossal errors.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:20:04 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mary-Sues
Message-ID: <bc0e4776.36d22c74@aol.com>
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In a message dated 2/21/99 3:57:40 PM Mountain Standard Time,
mistral@ptinet.net writes:
<< If Avon falls for a mutoid, is that a Mary-Sue? Or possibly a
Mary-Suzanne?
(Maybe it's just birds of a feather.)
>>
(misc. choking on coffee noises)
Ahhh, I bet she'd be just his type!
<snkr> Nina
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:18:44 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D23A33.CCAA31A5@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Avona wrote:
> Yipes! I'm suddenly convinced I'm not a 'J' at all!
<snip>
> I'll shut up now, I'm even annoying myself.
FWIW, Avona, I've been wondering for your last few posts if you weren't another P trying
to pass as a J. The planning can be a learned compensatory behaviour; I'm a nearly
compulsive listmaker (although I almost never cross everything off before making a new
list). The fact that you're wondering at all is a pretty big clue in itself. And now that
I've bitten the bullet and admitted to myself that Avon's probably a P, well-- you did
have the savvy to agree with me about the Blake-Avon-Vila dynamic <smirk>. Give up,
Avona, you're a P.
The idea that INTPs are *losers* is a dangerous distortion of reality, which I think we
all buy into from time to time. What we *are* is rare and unusual (about 3%), and
constantly looked upon as outsiders by most of the other (the non-NT) types. An
evolutionary biologist (which I'm not, BTW) would say that rare types like INTP, INFJ,
etc., are vital to the survival and advancement of the species as a whole, whereas the
more common types are vital to the survival of the rare types.
It's true, sometimes INTPs are viewed as weirdos -- but it's by the same people who often
secretly admire us and wish they could be more like us and ask for our advice.
And you're not annoying *me* yet. I like traffic on the list, even if I'm not always
interested in every topic.
(Not of course, meaning to sound arrogant, since I've admitted that I'm P, not J)
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:46:04 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Run for the hills...
Message-ID: <19990223054606.2578.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
...'cause I've been trying again, heaven help me. The floodgates have
opened, as it were...
Roj
(tune: Gough, by The Whitlams)
Here's a story about a man named Roj
Who wanted his freedom so very much
He liked engineering, held his head high
And he hated the Feds but he didn't know why
There were reasons (how long have you got?)
There are always reasons (how long have you got?)
There's a man in the tunnels tonight
His name is Roj Blake, he was doing alright
Until he remembered events of the past
That's when he should've got out of there fast
What a murder (a big day for all of us)
What a massacre (a big day for all of us)
Come over and rebel with me
We'll play chess with Cally
Teleport up to the ship
And you can bring Orac
It's for you, Roj
You, Roj
You, Roj
Roj Blake our hero (repeat)
Out on the surface the Feds took their aim
Outsiders were slaughtered
And Blake was betrayed
Out on the surface Bran Foster died
Shame, Tarrant, shame, but we all cried
For you, Roj etc.
Come over and rebel with me
We'll play chess with Cally
Teleport up to the ship
And you can bring Orac
It's for you, Roj etc.
Days of swine and losses
I warn you now, there's another one fermenting in my grey cells, and it
will be with you in a little while. <vaguely evil grin> Prepare
yourselves. <listening> Do I hear screams at the prospect?
Regards
Joanne
(who really should be doing all the work piling up around her, and may
well need more sleep, as a cure for fevered imaginings)
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 22:53:10 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-Id: <199902230554.XAA16063@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>He's not strongly typed, in that respect, I suppose. I'm a 5/10 J-- the
>test I took makes J the default, I guess, though I tested 6/10 the
>second time. That sense of failure is my bugaboo.
If you're borderline like that -- an INTx -- you're likely to identify with
characteristics on both sides of the scale. Happens to me, too, as I'm not
a very strong J, though I can pretty definitely put myself in the INTJ
category. In my case, I'm very J-ish about some things, very P-ish about
others, with the Js winning by a narrow margin.
It's always important to remember that the MB scales aren't binary, they're
analog. Falling on one side or the other of a scale doesn't mean you
completely lack the characteristics of the other side; most people are a
mixture. The label just indicates which side predominates in your
personality. Unless you're completely out at the end of the scale, it's not
going to dominate *completely*.
>And he had the arrogance, the sense of infallibility to such a degree,
>he knew it could be a hazard
Yeah, I've always put Holmes definitely in the INTJ camp.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 02:00:03 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <64091f2f.36d251f3@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 2/22/99 5:13:45 PM Mountain Standard Time,
alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk writes:
<< I like to think Dr Number 4 is ENTP like me (and 'Q' ). For a start we all
have untidy curly hair and that settles it. >>
I see Dr#4 more as ENFP - rather more an idealist than a rational.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:59:59 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <ce6028b5.36d251ef@aol.com>
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In a message dated 2/22/99 2:45:40 PM Mountain Standard Time,
kat@welkin.apana.org.au writes:
<< Whether or not Avon is rude enough to be INTJ, he *must* be a J rather
than a P, because he's such a *planning* person. He doesn't have to
be a strong J, but he's definitely a J. >>
Not necessarily. If he's near the center of the scale, the J characteristics
could be more a habit of his training as a programmer. OTOH, he's WAY more of
a planning type than Blake...
Nina
"Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:59:58 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Shakespeare and B7
Message-ID: <a4330834.36d251ee@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 2/22/99 12:37:50 PM Mountain Standard Time,
mistral@ptinet.net writes:
<< I have been 'alone and silent' for years now. I was completely stunned
when I got on the
internet and discovered that I was not the only crazy. 'It makes it all seem
worthwhile, somehow'. >>
<chuckle> Me too! It's been years since I've had anybody to talk to about B7.
My friends have never understood why I liked either B7 or Dr. Who - to them,
if it doesn't have ST or B5 class effects, it's not worth watching. <sigh> So
I'm pretty delirious to have found you lot!
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 02:00:04 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: lcw@dallas.net, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <82133e2f.36d251f4@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 2/22/99 6:05:20 PM Mountain Standard Time, lcw@dallas.net
writes:
<< Servalan's ENTJ. She's not an I; she needs people to
control and command. (Remember, being an E doesn't mean you *like* people;
it indicates that in some way you draw energy from being around them --
even from using them. An I thrives in solitude, and I don't think Servalan
would do well in solitude.) >>
I absolutely agree. And I think it's the J factor that allows her to keep
outfoxing Avon. That sort of planned & controlling behaviour is natural to
her, whereas it's a struggle for him. She's probably also a stronger N than
he is too. Avon likes facts and details without necessarily or immediately
relating them to a bigger picture, whereas Servalan's specialty is grandiose
scheming.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 01:59:56 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <3bcf7964.36d251ec@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 2/22/99 11:27:17 AM Mountain Standard Time,
mistral@ptinet.net writes:
<< I really think he's so borderline that there's no real way to resolve
it; did they
give any reasons why? His temper screams INTP, but his methodical nature
and
ability to make quick decisions when necessary scream INTJ almost
equally loudly.
Of course, he does worry and second-guess himself a lot, which is P
behaviour...Okay, he's P, yeah, definitely P! I think... >>
I also see him as being a fairly weak P in the circumstances that he's
confronted with in the series. Left to his own devices, I expect his P
tendencies would be more pronounced.
On the I/E scale, I agree he's an I, but more toward the center of the scale
than might be immediately apparent. I have always thought that one of the
reasons he *didn't* leave was that he found the intellectual & emotional
challenge of being with the others more appealing than being alone or with
more placid companions. He seems to enjoy the verbal sparring with Blake and
Vila, especially.
Nina
INTP
(borderline F/T, hopelessly incorrigible P)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 23:16:30 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D255CD.E8CCDC49@ptinet.net>
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Pherber@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 2/22/99 6:05:20 PM Mountain Standard Time, lcw@dallas.net
> writes:
>
> << Servalan's ENTJ. She's not an I; she needs people to
> control and command. (Remember, being an E doesn't mean you *like* people;
> it indicates that in some way you draw energy from being around them --
> even from using them. An I thrives in solitude, and I don't think Servalan
> would do well in solitude.) >>
>
> I absolutely agree. And I think it's the J factor that allows her to keep
> outfoxing Avon. That sort of planned & controlling behaviour is natural to
> her, whereas it's a struggle for him. She's probably also a stronger N than
> he is too. Avon likes facts and details without necessarily or immediately
> relating them to a bigger picture, whereas Servalan's specialty is grandiose
> scheming.
Oooooh! I think that's a *very* perceptive comment about the J. Makes me less
embarrassed for Avon, too. Although I see him as more N than Servalan. He
what-ifs all the time, whereas she relies on computers, psychostrategists, etc.
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:23:30 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D26581.79F40CA1@ptinet.net>
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Pherber@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 2/22/99 2:45:40 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> kat@welkin.apana.org.au writes:
>
> << Whether or not Avon is rude enough to be INTJ, he *must* be a J rather
> than a P, because he's such a *planning* person. He doesn't have to
> be a strong J, but he's definitely a J. >>
>
> Not necessarily. If he's near the center of the scale, the J characteristics
> could be more a habit of his training as a programmer. OTOH, he's WAY more of
> a planning type than Blake...
>
> Nina
> "Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so."
Ha, ha. Blisteringly appropriate sig file, Nina. I must chime in here to repeat
myself by agreeing with Nina: we live in an *extremely* J oriented society,
particularly in the working world, and the vast majority of Ps have perforce
learned some J organizing behaviours. Witness the ever-increasing proliferation of
daily planners, organizing books, etc. There is even a whole subsection of this
industry aimed specifically at P types, with titles such as 'Organizing for the
Creative Person', 'Time Management for Dummies', etc.
Everybody has specific behaviours on both sides of each scale, so if a person is
very borderline, looking at specific behaviours probably won't help; looking at
the motivations is probably more useful. If we're ever going to all agree on this
(not that there's any chance of that; and it would probably make for dull
reading), we're going to have to ask ourselves things like: does Avon prefer
making decisions (J) or gathering facts (P); is he goal-oriented (J) or exploring
(P); and is he more comfortable after (J) or before (P) making a decision? In the
first two instances, you could build a case either way, although I think the P
case would be slightly better; but in the last case, I can't think of a single
instance (although, of course somebody else may recall one) where making a
decision stopped him from worrying; he was always re-evaluating his position.
Clearly (IMHO) P motivations. (I feel so much smarter today than yesterday, when
I didn't have a strong opinion on this. Hmm, LOL. J behaviour-- but I'm a P!)
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:06:26 +1000
From: Kiersten Boughen <goldilox@senet.com.au>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.19990223190626.0079b760@senet.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 08:37 PM 22/02/99 -0600, Lisa Williams wrote:
>I'm associating it more with the tendency of INTPs to get all fascinated
>with some intellectual tangent and to stay on it, almost obsessively, to
>the exclusion of all else, until they fully understand it. INTPs focus more
>on what is fascinating at the moment, regardless of the big picture. From
>Keirsey & Bates (_Please Understand Me_): "INTPs can become obsessed with
>analysis. Once caught up in a thought process, that thought process seems
>to have a will of its own for INTPs, and they persevere until the issue is
>comprehended in all its complexity." Whenever I read that, Avon and his pet
>rock come to mind.
INTP's are also renown for never actually producing much with the knowledge
they have aquiured. Keirsey and Bates describe them as architects who need
others around them to actually turn their plans into a reality. (I can't
give the exact quote as my copy of 'Please Understand Me' is sitting on a
dock waiting to go to Auckland.) Avon does actually create something out of
what he learned from the Sopron, more INTJ than P. However, taking into
consideration his attitude towards the Sopron for the rest of the episode,
which is very P, that puts him very border line P/J. OTOH we never see or
hear of the Sopron again so that would tip the balance over to P. Right,
I'm convinced. Of course, it's not right to only look at one episode to
judge Avon's temperament, but there are plenty of other examples from other
episodes.
Kiersten
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 00:53:54 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D26CA2.3BE43348@ptinet.net>
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Kiersten Boughen wrote:
> INTP's are also renown for never actually producing much with the knowledge
> they have aquiured. Keirsey and Bates describe them as architects who need
> others around them to actually turn their plans into a reality. (I can't
> give the exact quote as my copy of 'Please Understand Me' is sitting on a
> dock waiting to go to Auckland.) Avon does actually create something out of
> what he learned from the Sopron, more INTJ than P. However, taking into
> consideration his attitude towards the Sopron for the rest of the episode,
> which is very P, that puts him very border line P/J. OTOH we never see or
> hear of the Sopron again so that would tip the balance over to P. <snip>.
Yes, Yes! Which reminds me of something I forgot to say: We do see Avon indulge
in J-ish goal-oriented or productive behaviour from time to time (i.e. the use
of the Sopron, 'Rumors', 'Terminal', etc.); but in [almost] every case those are
short-term behaviours, and would fall into the INTP's obsessive phase, when the
idea is all-consuming. INTPs are, in fact, able to complete projects that can be
resolved within very short time periods, while the initial thrill of engagement
is still on.
Obviously warming to the subject, now that I have a real opinion,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:18:44 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>, mistral@ptinet.net
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <19990223201844.04785@welkin.apana.org.au>
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On Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 01:18:52PM -0800, mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
> I have to go a little off topic to explain my comment here: my best
> friend and I went through the MBTI process together, and both of us
> had real trouble deciding whether we were INTP or INTJ. There were two
> reasons for this difficulty; the first being that we're both extremely
> borderline, because of about 15 years' each of very deliberately
> trying to cultivate J behaviours as an antidote to some P weaknesses
> that were troubling us; the second being that we idolize each other,
> having sort of a mutual appreciation club, and want to be more like
> each other, so we couldn't quite believe that we could possibly have
> the same type; we each think of the other as more INTJ.
Fascinating. Even though Avona (my secret twin) is wondering if she's
really a P and not a J, I don't share that unsurety - because I *know*
have been trying to cultivate some *P* behaviours as an antidote to
*J* weaknesses in my life! To wit, even though I'm not a *strong* J,
I like to plan things out well beforehand, be on time and have other
people be on time, and if these things don't happen, I *fret*. That's
not cultivated behaviour, that's underlying tendency. Wheras what I
am *trying* to do is be more spontaneous. (Really weird - to *plan*
to be spontaneous...) On the other hand, I'm not such a strong J that
my house is spotless... <grin>
> Back on topic: an extremely strong case can be built for Avon as INTP
> or as INTJ; based on that, and on my first reason in the preceding
> paragraph, I have to conclude that 1) Avon's extremely borderline on
> P/J and 2) Lisa's conclusion above is extremely plausible. I tend to
> want to see him as INTJ; but based on my second reason in the
> preceding paragraph, that could just be the fact that I consider Avon
> my best role model (make of that what you will), and for that reason
> just don't want to see him as the same type as myself.
The arguments put forward almost persuade me that Avon might be a P
after all. On the other hand, let us consider his history - you could
easily argue that that "sense of impending failure" really only
happened to him later in the series - after Anna Grant's death.
The whole Anna Grant/Bartolemew thing was a devastating blow to his
self-confidence, because it got him where the INTs are weakest -
relationships with people, judgement of character. Yes, you could
argue that this simply says that he's a P anyway, but before that
point, I think his cynicism was just that - cynicism, not a "sense of
impending failure". IMHO, he's more confident earlier on in the
series.
It's interesting also, when you look at fanfic, that the authors seem
to be unconciously placing Avon in the "J" camp whenever they describe
his cabin -- it's always neat and uncluttered. Usually set up as a
contrast with Blake's which is inevitably more messy.
On the other hand, there's the Sopron. Except that that's the only
time we see him so absent-minded-professor-ish.
Oh well, the only thing that's clear is that he's borderline.
Kathryn A.
(INT/FJ/P)
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 19:31:09 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <19990223193109.48886@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Mon, Feb 22, 1999 at 08:24:24PM -0700, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> I was just talking about it with my husband the other day-- he was of
> the opiinion Vila might not really be an E. I think he's off base, but
> does anyone else see Vila as a possible I?
No way. Vila likes people too much. His babble doesn't strike me as
compensatory (an I trying to compensate for their introversion may end
up talking too much, so to speak). I have this picture of Vila in
"Powerplay" lost in the woods talking to himself, scared of being
alone.
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 20:30:07 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <19990223203007.30037@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Here's another question which puzzles me - is Cally INFJ or INFP?
She's definitely INF, but again we have this J/P thing.
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:46:51 -0000
From: "Josh Tildesley" <josh@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Guards! Guards! at Darlington CT
Message-ID: <010c01be5f11$72aa51c0$92b4cdc2@josh-s-pc>
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I went over to see it yesterday.
It was smashing.
DId anyone else?
What did you think?
Josh Tildesley.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 09:51:43 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "B7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <002801be5f12$fe1399a0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Mistral said -
>There is even a whole subsection of this
>industry aimed specifically at P types, with titles such as 'Organizing for
the
>Creative Person', 'Time Management for Dummies', etc.
But there is also a whole section for J people teaching them how to fake
creativity. It's called the work of Edward de Bono.
I'm starting to see how Avon could be described as INTP. Very interesting
ideas. I am also gripped by Lisa's insight in calling Travis ISTJ. I had
never thought of it and I think it's great. Interesting (like Data) the
metaphor of a simulation of biological life, in one case benign and in the
other malign. The elements of loyalty and loneliness which both exhibit. As
I say, I think the SJs always get a hard time and I want to understand them
better.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 02:11:50 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D27EE6.386C1AD7@ptinet.net>
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Kathryn Andersen wrote:
> Here's another question which puzzles me - is Cally INFJ or INFP?
> She's definitely INF, but again we have this J/P thing.
Let's hope my computer doesn't crash again right after I get this written,
but before I get it sent or saved. Or maybe you'd rather it did. :D
My reply to your lovely long Avon P/J? post will have to wait until
tomorrow, I think, because I have been up 24 hours now and my brain is
furring up-- but I think, to my satisfaction anyway, this one is a gimme.
Cally never has trouble making decisions. Even more so, she never
second-guesses them after she's made them. Plus she's very goal-oriented,
and a planner (suggesting things to Blake, etc.) Cally is IMHO an obvious
J.
More subjectively, she is a personality clone for an INFJ friend of mine.
INFJ is, according to the literature that I have read, the rarest of all
types, and liked by everybody. This is certainly true of my friend; I
submit that it's also true of Cally. Even without the telepathy, she's
unusual. And have you ever run across *anybody* who actually *disliked*
Cally? (Unless, of course, they had a really bad Avon fixation and bought
into the A/C scenario.)
I have a little more trouble justifying the S/N here. Not that I disagree,
but will you help me clarify it a little?
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:08:40 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <004001be5f14$9e3f8460$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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>Here's another question which puzzles me - is Cally INFJ or INFP?
>She's definitely INF, but again we have this J/P thing.
I think she is INFJ.
Quote from Bates and Kiersey 'INFJs can have uncanny communications with
certain individuals at a distance'.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 02:35:25 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs
Message-ID: <36D2846C.DDEA3C2C@ptinet.net>
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Alison Page wrote:
> But there is also a whole section for J people teaching them how to fake
> creativity. It's called the work of Edward de Bono.
Well, I really *did* plan to sleep today. This is way amusing. I don't really
think creativity can be learned, just unleashed-- but it could be faked.
Actually, for an INTP, I'm not very creative (of course, I think actually INTJs
are supposed to have the edge there).
But there's this image that flashes into my mind of Soolin saying 'But Avon, you
lie so well', and Avon looking dismayed.
Actually, I don't think he does-- not direct, blatant lies, anyway. Like all
NTs, he is fundamentally honest. Not a moral judgment, but a practical one. Lies
are unnecessary ('why bother to lie') and stupid (you have to remember which
lies you told to whom). He does what any clever INTP does. He gives away the
least possible truthful information, and always the part that supports his
advantage or position. Look at the first ten minutes of Redemption. He doesn't
tell Blake he's on the flight deck, doesn't offer any information until Blake
asks for it, and then parcels it out in a manner calculated both to make himself
look clever and to strengthen his position re Blake. Most types wouldn't
consider this strictly honest, but to an INTP, this is scrupulous honesty, and
extremely clever. Even more clever is to tell the absolute truth and lead the
listener to a conclusion that is the absolute opposite of reality-- which feat
he accomplishes with Shrinker, in the first ten minutes of Rumors, among other
places. Avon doesn't lie well-- he tells the truth creatively (of course Soolin,
being SP, sees it as lying). IMHO, very INTP.
Oh, and I agree about Travis. He's a very striking example of ISTJ, which I
hadn't noticed before, having read almost exclusively about Ns, being as I know
almost exclusively Ns (despite what some people have said about our rarity).
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 21:19:14 +1100 (EST)
From: kat@welkin.apana.org.au (Kathryn Andersen)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (Blake's 7 list)
Subject: [B7L] Seska
Message-Id: <m10FEvq-000TbPC@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text
I've been thinking about the Seska a lot lately (comes of trying to
write an Alternative Universe story set during Power)
It suddenly occurred to me - do we *know* that Pella, Luxia and Kate
are the last three Seska? Were there in fact some younger Seska
around, hiding out in their "hydroponic dome"?
Pella said that the Seska rescued the Hommiks' female infants and
brought them up as Seska. The fact that we don't see any children
made me inclined to believe that this was just propaganda on her part,
but what if it wasn't? Maybe we didn't see the kids because it was
too dangerous for them to be wandering about the countryside.
Of course the other evidence is that there weren't any because we
never hear from them again, but then, if Luxia, Pella and Kate were
the only adults, then maybe all the others died or were captured very
soon after that anyway.
I'm trying to think of all the possibilities cuz of this story of
mine. Which is staring balefully at me and is in danger of being
ripped up and stomped on. (sigh)
Anyone want to volunteer off-list to help me brainstorm? Problem is,
I know where it starts, but I don't really know where I want to take
it, which means the wretched thing keeps on turning into a re-run of
Power. *bor-ing*. Help!
Kathryn A.
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 10:51:50 +0000
From: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
To: Joanne MacQueen <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats
Message-ID: <b+CyOCAGho02EwgB@wriding.demon.co.uk>
In message <19990222233950.16664.qmail@hotmail.com>, Joanne
MacQueen <j_macqueen@hotmail.com> writes
>>AVON
>>Sex Appeal 12 (default skill level)
>
>>TARRANT
>>Sex Appeal 13
>
>This is the Tarrant Nostra edition, surely?
>
Hey, I call 'em as I see 'em :)
Seriously, the definition of 'Sex Appeal' as a GURPS skill is:
"The ability to impress the opposite sex. It can only be studied in your
'free time' - say a max of 3 hours per day - unless you are a member of
a harem or the equivalent. The sex appeal ability has as much to do
with your attitude as it does with looks. If you are not willing to
'vamp' someone to get what you want, you won't have this talent or
_want_ it."
The only major characters who use their allure as a weapon in B7 are
Servalan and Tarrant (a little), I would say. I don't see Avon as
pretending to seduce women to get what he wants.
--
Russ Massey
Sirius Games, 161 Montague Street, Worthing,
West Sussex BN11 3BZ
(01903 217334)
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #75
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