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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 99 : Issue 338

Today's Topics:
	 Re: [B7L] optimism and pessimism
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Avon ATA
	 [B7L] blakes7-d Digest V99 #337
	 [B7L] list info
	 Re: [B7L] optimism and pessimism
	 [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #337
	 [B7L] Re: Tarrant's Uniform
	 Re: [B7L] Realities of combat
	 Re: [B7L] optimism and pessimism
	 Re: [B7L] Realities of combat

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 05:02:01 PST
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] optimism and pessimism
Message-ID: <19991204130201.51472.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Me/Mistral:

>>(1) Optimists are more likely to succeed than pessimists. [Alison]
>>(2) Pessimists are more likely to be proved right than optimists 
>>[Mistral's study] --  because pessimism is, very often, a self-
>>fulfilling prophesy.
>>
>>There's no contradiction at all between the statements.  In fact, they are 
>>almost different ways of saying the same thing.
>
>Except <mutter, grumble> that you've completely twisted what I
>said. The study wasn't about optimism/pessimism as self-fufilling
>prophecy, because it wasn't about *response* to the environment,
>only the *perception* of it.


But that's the point I'm making -- perception drives response.  This is one 
of the things that came out so strongly in the Ray Mears' Extreme Survival 
series.  The one common thread in all of the success stories was the 
attitude of the survivors.  Those who survived simply never gave up hope.  
Of course, that was no guarantee of survival, but no one had a chance 
without it.


>Pessimism and defeatism are by no means the same thing. They
>occur together with what I suspect is roughly the same frequency
>as optimism and foolhardiness. I cannot count the number of times
>I've watched optimists precipitate major life disasters because they
>refused to consider the possible negative consequences of their
>actions. Pessimists are, in my experience at least, far more likely
>to consider *all* possible outcomes, good and bad.


Good point!  There's optimism and there's optimism.  There's the sort of 
optimism where one believes in oneself and refuses to allow setbacks to get 
in the way of that dream job, or that personal best athletic achievement (or 
staying alive up a mountain).  And there's the reckless attitude, where 
someone just assumes that nothing will ever go wrong, and doesn't bother to 
make any kind of contingency plan.  The most extreme example of that is a 
couple of guys I knew two or three years back, who went up a mountain in the 
Alps towards the end of the season, after a good few weeks of freezing and 
thawing.  They were experienced mountaineers, who really should have known 
better -- rather unsurprisingly, they were caught in an avalanche and 
killed.

Of course, most of us don't go to those kinds of extremes, but as you say, 
there are parallels in daily life.  And equally, there's pessimism and 
there's pessimism.  You might want to be a little more descriptive, and say 
there's a difference between pessimism and defeatism, just as there's a 
difference between optimism and foolhardiness.  But, to be honest, I'd have 
to say that the lines separating these qualities can become precariously 
thin at times.


>Sometimes pessimists fight harder to succeed because they know it's going 
>to take that sort of effort if there's to be a chance to succeed at all.
>As in Avon's 'If they're going to kill us, let us at least try and
>make it difficult for them'.


Do you think that people with pessimist tendencies are more likely to 
identify with Avon than Blake, and vice versa?  I mean, I am one of life's 
optimists (with all the advantages and disadvantages that entails), and I've 
always identified with Blake.  Another classic Blake/Avon moment that 
springs to mind is at the start of "Duel" -- when he's cornered, Blake pulls 
out the stops and decides to ram Travis.  Avon is against the idea, but 
concedes that he can think of no better strategy.  And I'm sitting there, 
totally gunning for Blake.  I even have a bit of a Blake attitude when I 
play football or squash.  I go after balls that sensible people wouldn't 
even bother to look at -- and every now and again, I get a point out of it.  
Which is the argument Blake would use to justify the same behaviour, on the 
Liberator or on the squash court!


>You could say it was Blake's optimism that got Gan killed.


Hey, no one's perfect!!!  ;-)

-- Rob

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 08:31:40 EST
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Avon ATA
Message-ID: <0.42684d55.257a71bc@aol.com>
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In a message dated 12/04/1999 12:31:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, avona@jps.net
 writes:

 > I thought that there was a lively pace to the book, and
 >  I've forgiven it the horrid astronomy errors, having be maybe four feet
 >  away from Paul as he smiled and said in a slightly enbarrassed way that
 >  the editor's wouldn't let him alter the errors (having looked up the
 >  facts for his *final* draft), saying they thought it was good enough,
 >  set up the proofs. He said they told him the fans wouldn't notice
 >  (showing they know nothing about SF fans!). >>

How astonishingly this story has changed over the past 10 years. Back then, 
the fans who were closely involved in assisting Paul with the writing and 
production of this book  complained that they tried to get Paul to allow the 
thing to be edited, and that PAUL threw out virtually all suggested 
corrections and edits. Apparently, a rewrite of sorts has occurred, but it 
wasn't in the manuscript...

Leah

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 10:57:14 -0800 
From: "Kinkade, Carol A" <Carol.Kinkade@West.Boeing.com>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] blakes7-d Digest V99 #337
Message-ID: <B12052866F7AD211BE530008C7A4C64B0170DEC3@xch-hbc-04.co.bna.boeing.com>
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I apologize for sending this message to the list, but I'm not where I can
access the internet to find Calle's personal mail address.  I'm hoping that
by putting the word "UNSUBSCRIBE"  in the subject line, lysator will throw
it out to Calle.

If it hits the list, I apologize.  Calle, please unsub me from the list.

I have tried but keep getting a message saying "you cannot be unsubscribed
because you are not subscribed"

Thank you


		-----Original Message-----
		From:	carol.a.kinkade@boeing.com [SMTP:
carol.kinkade@west.nasa.gov]
		Sent:	Saturday, December 04, 1999 5:50 AM
		To:	blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
		Subject:	UNSUBSCRIBE




		-----Original Message-----
		From:	blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se
[SMTP:blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se]
		Sent:	Saturday, December 04, 1999 3:40 AM
		To:	blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
		Subject:	blakes7-d Digest V99 #337

		 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 20:55:52 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] list info
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1204205552-339Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

If you're a list member and you can't remember how to unsub, remember that I
always have the details on my web site http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7  Just look
under 'mailing lists'.

I notice the hit rate on the site's top page has jumped from 70 to 100 per day. 
While I'd like to think it's because the recent redesign has made it all far
more fantastic, I suspect that people can't resist hitting refresh to see which
random picture comes up next!

Judith

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01  23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 4 Dec 1999 21:54:32 -0000
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] optimism and pessimism
Message-ID: <007601bf3ea2$8dd788c0$85258cd4@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk>
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Rob said lots of stuff, and ....
>
>Do you think that people with pessimist tendencies are more likely to
>identify with Avon than Blake, and vice versa?  I mean, I am one of life's
>optimists (with all the advantages and disadvantages that entails), and
I've
>always identified with Blake.  Another classic Blake/Avon moment that
>springs to mind is at the start of "Duel" -- when he's cornered, Blake
pulls
>out the stops and decides to ram Travis.  Avon is against the idea, but
>concedes that he can think of no better strategy.  And I'm sitting there,
>totally gunning for Blake.  I even have a bit of a Blake attitude when I
>play football or squash.  I go after balls that sensible people wouldn't
>even bother to look at -- and every now and again, I get a point out of it.
>Which is the argument Blake would use to justify the same behaviour, on the
>Liberator or on the squash court!
>


An ability to take calculated risks does not necessarily equate to an
optimistic tendency (and vice versa). Similarly, a pessimist attitude does
not always make you dysfunctional under pressure.

Perhaps what that particular scene in Duel illustrates is another facet of
personality, that of lateral thinking. The logical thing to do in a battle
is to absorb any hits on target with your force wall, and make all of your
shots count. Avon would be thinking along those lines, perhaps (over)
optimistically. Jenna is an excellent pilot, the Liberator is the best ship.
When it becomes apparent that that tactic will not work, Blake's distance
from the technology and the mechanics of how it all works and his ability
for lateral thinking allows him to come up with a novel solution. Avon on
the other hand was probably going through the logical solutions along the
lines of minimise our damage / energy expenditure, maximise theirs, and so
did not have an alternative to offer. He did however recognise the potential
of Blake's idea, and optimistically supported it (in Avon's own abrasive
style).

Andrew

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 20:31:04 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #337
Message-ID: <3849DC79.5440@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> > We do seem to agree, however, that even when you hit your target,
> > you can't count on them dying instantly. 
> 
> Blake lives!  I always knew it.  That guy on the floor isn't dead, just
> unconscious.  Nobody even checked his pulse.
> 
> Judith
Why not? Get him to a hospital fast enough and he'd be alive even with
today's medicine, given that the bullets don't hit bones and bounce
around inside.

Avona

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 04 Dec 1999 21:18:01 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Tarrant's Uniform
Message-ID: <3849E77A.62ED@jps.net>
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>  Unless of course he ended up in the company of the Black Friday
> Afternoon Kill All Fed Scum Popular Peoples Mad-Eyed Revolutionary Front,
> but that's just one of the risks he'd have to take.
> 
> Neil
Well, you do sort of wonder about him wearing it to board the Liberator.
But my guess is he noticed the lifepods go or something. After all,
going there he was going into the Mad-eyed Revolutionary Front, unless
he knew they'd bailed.

--Avona

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 09:54:13 -0000
From: "Kin Ming Looi" <ming@looi.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Realities of combat
Message-ID: <005201bf3f06$e58956c0$0101a8c0@leviathan>
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From: Iain Coleman <ijc@bsfiles.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
Sent: 02 December 1999 10:03


> It's my understanding that the SAS doctrine is to shoot the target twice,
> and then evaluate the situation. I presume they know what they're doing.

However, as I recall, the "double-tap" technique is used for room clearance
in hostage situations where basically the SAS troopers burst into a room
potentially packed with terrorists and hostages so the aim is to put two
bullets into the head of the first terrorist and move on to the next target
as soon as possible until the room is clear.

Special Forces troops spend huge amounts of their time constantly training
so they do have the reflexes to identify and eliminate the right targets
with the sort of speed required. By contrast, standard infantry approaches
to room clearance involve grenades and bursts of automatic fire into the
room when there is no concern about hostages.

So the question is whether that sort of skill can be realistically expected
from the B7 characters - With the possible exceptions of Dayna and Soolin,
I'd argue no. Even there, I still don't get the same impression of nigh-on
constant training.

Ming.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Dec 1999 03:05:23 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] optimism and pessimism
Message-ID: <384A46F1.787F8D4E@ptinet.net>
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Rob Clother wrote:

> Me/Mistral:
>
> >>(1) Optimists are more likely to succeed than pessimists. [Alison]
> >>(2) Pessimists are more likely to be proved right than optimists
> >>[Mistral's study] --  because pessimism is, very often, a self-
> >>fulfilling prophesy.
> >>
> >>There's no contradiction at all between the statements.  In fact, they are
> >>almost different ways of saying the same thing.
> >
> >Except <mutter, grumble> that you've completely twisted what I
> >said. The study wasn't about optimism/pessimism as self-fufilling
> >prophecy, because it wasn't about *response* to the environment,
> >only the *perception* of it.
>
> But that's the point I'm making -- perception drives response.

Agreed that perception is a major (but not the only) factor.

I did feel that your statement (2) above obscured the point of
my comment re the study. The study showed that the perceptions
of the pessimist tend to be more accurate *independent of or
before* any response that is made.

[snip]

> Good point!  There's optimism and there's optimism.  There's the sort of
> optimism where one believes in oneself and refuses to allow setbacks to get
> in the way of that dream job, or that personal best athletic achievement (or
> staying alive up a mountain).

Is that really optimism? I think of that as self-confidence.

[snip]

> Of course, most of us don't go to those kinds of extremes, but as you say,
> there are parallels in daily life.  And equally, there's pessimism and
> there's pessimism.  You might want to be a little more descriptive, and say
> there's a difference between pessimism and defeatism, just as there's a
> difference between optimism and foolhardiness.  But, to be honest, I'd have
> to say that the lines separating these qualities can become precariously
> thin at times.

Agreed.

> Do you think that people with pessimist tendencies are more likely to
> identify with Avon than Blake, and vice versa?

An interesting question :) After some thought, I'd guess there
would be some statistical correspondence, but only because I'm
convinced that traits tend to run in clusters. I don't think it's the
dividing line; I see the dividing line as more of an independence/
connectedness issue, with possibly a bit of reason vs. sentiment
thrown in for good measure.

> I mean, I am one of life's
> optimists (with all the advantages and disadvantages that entails), and I've
> always identified with Blake.  Another classic Blake/Avon moment that
> springs to mind is at the start of "Duel" -- when he's cornered, Blake pulls
> out the stops and decides to ram Travis.  Avon is against the idea, but
> concedes that he can think of no better strategy.

A wonderful scene. I don't entirely agree that Avon's against the
idea; more that he's caught off guard by it. The issues are 1) has
Blake considered everything that can go wrong, and 2) does Avon
get a choice in the matter. To me that speaks of independence
and reason (I can see how an optimist might see it as negativism,
though.)

> And I'm sitting there,
> totally gunning for Blake.  I even have a bit of a Blake attitude when I
> play football or squash.  I go after balls that sensible people wouldn't
> even bother to look at -- and every now and again, I get a point out of it.
> Which is the argument Blake would use to justify the same behaviour, on the
> Liberator or on the squash court!

I sincerely commend you. Let me just point out, however, that
in life and death situations, succeeding 'every now and again'
just isn't good enough ;-)

I think I'd amend your original statements to read:

(1) Optimists are more likely to succeed than pessimists
*against overwhelming odds*, because they ignore the odds,
knowing there's always a chance, however slim.

(2) Pessimists are more likely to be proved right than optimists
because they're not blinded to reality by wishful thinking.

So, if you want hope, ask an optimist. If you want the truth,
ask a pessimist ;-)

Grins,
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
                              --Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 5 Dec 1999 17:49:57 -0000
From: "Deborah Day" <d.day@ukgateway.net>
To: "blakes7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Realities of combat
Message-ID: <007201bf3f49$25f46780$0a88bc3e@oemcomputer>
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>Blake lives!  I always knew it.  That guy on the floor isn't dead, just
>unconscious.  Nobody even checked his pulse.


I think after nearly twenty years you could safely say he is dead now.

Debbie.

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End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #338
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