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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 329
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] 1999 zines
Re: [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion
[B7L] Deliverance Videos
[B7L] Night's Dawn
[B7L] Odd thought re: Avon
[B7L] Thoughts on Gan
Re: [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion
Re: [B7L] Night's Dawn
[B7L] this year's zines
Re: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon
Re: [B7L] Deliverance Videos
Re: [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion
Re: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon
RE: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon
RE: [B7L] Night's Dawn
Re: [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion
Re: [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion
Re: [B7L] Night's Dawn (Peter F. Hamilton)
Re: [B7L] Punishment for Desertion
RE: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 18:40:51 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] 1999 zines
Message-ID: <003001bf377d$02aac950$0d01a8c0@hedge>
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Sarah T wrote:
> Here are all the 1999 B7 zines that I know about. Are there any
> I've missed?? More newsletters, perhaps? Any publications
> connected with Redemption?
<snip>
It really is amazing how much new stuff continues to come out each year.
Just glancing down the list, I'm surprised at how many I've picked up.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:49:04 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion
Message-ID: <004b01bf3780$36eb6000$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Andrew and Una,
>> ALL punishment is a form of deterrent.
>
>That's not what I was taught in GCSE Religious Studies. There was something
>about retribution as well as deterrence. Or maybe that's just because it
was
>a Catholic school.
Whereas at school I was told the exact opposite, that the use of civil
punishment for retribution or revenge would be a violation of human rights,
and that only the 'good' of deterrence justified the 'bad' of depriving
someone of their liberty.
Or maybe that's just because my teachers were left-wing atheists
:-)
I'm tempted to leave it with that deliberately annoying remark, but I do
have a federation-related point. Which is, that Travis and Servalan become
'evil' characters when this tenuous thread is broken, and they can no longer
pretend even to themselves that there is any justification for what they are
doing. In fact by the end they have gone beyond even the narrow
justification of self-interest and they are just killing for retribution and
temper.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 21:56:11 -0000
From: "Wendy Duffield" <mgb@tesco.net>
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Deliverance Videos
Message-Id: <E11r6ro-0002Xt-00@bakery>
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<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param><bigger>Hi
Does anyone know if there has been any news on the
videos from the horizon organised Deliverence
convention ?
i was sat with a friend the other day going through the
photos from the con and i remembered that i had sent
money off for the deposit on the videos some time ago
now, in fact, what feels like months ago and have not
heard anything !
Does any one have an update that i've missed ?
Best Regards
Wendy Duffield
<nofill>
mgb@tesco.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I don't give my allegiance at all, i sell my skill "
- Soolin (Power B7)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:01:34 +0100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Night's Dawn
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F95B308@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
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I'm currently reading 'The Naked God' by Peter F. Hamilton. There's an
extremely dictatorial bunch of people featuring in it who are running the
Earth and who are constantly referred to as B7. The behaviour of some of
these people even reminds me of some of the B7 people this list is about.
Does anyone know if this was intentional, i.e. is Mr. Hamilton by any chance
a B7 fan?
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:15:11 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon
Message-ID: <383DC300.69D8@jps.net>
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1. The Federation began to 'run' him, because they thought his
embezzlement scheme was political and wanted to see who he'd connect
with.
2. Avon is very, mmm, multitalented for a computers man. Software,
hardware, non-computer engineering skill, enough familiarity with
Federation weaponry (Project Avaloln) to tell a gun was non-standrad
issue by a quick eyeballing of the exterior, some martial arts skills.
3. Despite an implied lack of close combat experience (his conversation
with Jenna "Could you kill a man..."), he seems to be a crack shot.
4. Bartolomew returned his feelings for her and 'let him go'; in spite
of the fact he got caught.
What does this all mean? Possibily nothing, but...
the Federation is not above tampering with people's minds (in fact,
that's their specialty).
I wonder if Kerr might have been political at one time. Perhaps a rebel,
perhaps, on the other hand, an agent of the Federation who began to
dislike what he was seeing. If he was a rebel, they decided he was too
valuable as an expert to kill, and simply wiped that area of his mind.
If he had been an agent, he might never have actually changed sides, but
simply raised questions about policy once too often. They used him as
the subject of a major experiment in mind alteration, removing all
memory of his agent days, but the skills remained-- in this case,
Anna/Bartolomew may have known him farther back, and her emotional
entanglement with him and her own change of side take on new meanings.
It's also possible that Avon & Blake knew each other eariler, but
neither has any clear memory. In fact, Avon might have been conditioned
with a minor aversion/distrust of Blake, a conditioning which melted in
the face of past trust and current circumstances, but might have helped
trigger the disasterous scene at Guada Prime.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 16:17:31 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Thoughts on Gan
Message-ID: <383DC38C.35AB@jps.net>
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He is, very often, the person using the medikit, and in Project Avalon
after Zen analysis the capsule contents, he is the one who reduces the
analysis to layman's terms.
Gan might have been a nurse or paramedic?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 23:04:14 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion
Message-ID: <00d201bf379a$aa72ba40$0d01a8c0@hedge>
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Alison:
> Andrew and Una,
>
> >> ALL punishment is a form of deterrent.
> >
> >That's not what I was taught in GCSE Religious Studies. There was
something
> >about retribution as well as deterrence. Or maybe that's just because it
was
> >a Catholic school.
>
> Whereas at school I was told the exact opposite, that the use of civil
> punishment for retribution or revenge would be a violation of human
rights,
> and that only the 'good' of deterrence justified the 'bad' of depriving
> someone of their liberty.
Isn't there meant to be some sort of element of penalty: i.e. payment for a
crime committed? Maybe retribution carries the wrong overtones from the
sense I was trying to convey.
> Or maybe that's just because my teachers were left-wing atheists
>
> :-)
;P Well, mine may not have been atheists, but I assure you that I am the
product of a completely left-wing upbringing.
Una
------------------------------
Date: 26 Nov 1999 09:30:35 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Night's Dawn
Message-ID: <usogchslhw.fsf@sture.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>>>> "Jacqueline" == Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl> writes:
> Does anyone know if this was intentional, i.e. is Mr. Hamilton by
> any chance a B7 fan?
If so, he hasn't mentioned it anywhere I can find, and I forgot to ask
him when we had him as GoH at ConFuse in '96. Bummer.
--
Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
"I like darkness, because it shows us light" -- Victoria McManus
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:26:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] this year's zines
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1126082658-313Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
There's another multi-media zine this year.
It's called 'Professional Hilarity'. It's English language even though it's
published in Germany and it crosses Blake's 7 with the Professionals and several
other shows in one long story.
I don't agent it myself, but it's available from the publishers who have fixed
their prices so they can take US dollars and pounds in cash (so you don't need
German money to buy it).
There's full information on my web site including an extract from the zine about
Avon and Blake visiting Hardcore Leather. It is a genzine and strongly
humour-orientated.
Look under 'fanzines', find the indexes section, and look under 'new zines for
1999'
Judith
PS. I always admire people who can write well in another language. Take a
look.
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:04:47 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1126080447-b49Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Thu 25 Nov, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> he seems to be a crack shot.
Evidence?
JUdith
PS. "I was aiming for his head."
"Soolin shot them both."
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 08:14:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Deliverance Videos
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1126081426-bc8Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Thu 25 Nov, Wendy Duffield wrote:
> <color><param>0100,0100,0100</param><bigger>Hi
>
>
> Does anyone know if there has been any news on the
> videos from the horizon organised Deliverence
> convention ?
I believe they ran into editing problems and are finding someone else to do the
editing.
>
> i was sat with a friend the other day going through the
> photos from the con and i remembered that i had sent
> money off for the deposit on the videos some time ago
> now, in fact, what feels like months ago and have not
> heard anything !
Well, the convention was over a year and half ago.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 05:50:08 PST
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: b7spin@metva.com.au
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion
Message-ID: <19991126135008.25209.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Una/Alison:
> >That's not what I was taught in GCSE Religious Studies. There was >
> >something about retribution as well as deterrence. Or maybe that's >just
>because it was a Catholic school.
>
>
>Whereas at school I was told the exact opposite, that the use of civil
>punishment for retribution or revenge would be a violation of human rights,
>and that only the 'good' of deterrence justified the 'bad' of depriving
>someone of their liberty.
>
>Or maybe that's just because my teachers were left-wing atheists
Hm. The American Constitution is largely a secular document. Does it
contain an official line on punishment as retribution, deterrence or
rehabilitation? Or would that come under a different umbrella altogether --
separation of executive and judiciary and all that?
Do we have any constitutional experts here?
-- Rob
[Copied to Spin List, cos I've dropped all pretence of linking this to B7].
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 09:50:48 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon
Message-ID: <383EC877.7F1A3754@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Judith Proctor wrote:
> On Thu 25 Nov, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>
> > he seems to be a crack shot.
>
> Evidence?
Horizon. He hit those *tiny* cameras *quickly* and accurately.
While I always thought the "aiming for his head" bit was a joke,
maybe it wasn't, and he was annoyed enough about missing
Travis's head that he spent some time practicing between 'Orac'
and 'Horizon.'
Also, I've always thought the remark about Soolin in 'Gold' was
to impress Keillor with how dangerous Avon's associates were.
Grins,
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
--Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:01:59 +0100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F95B46A@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Judith wrote:
>
> On Thu 25 Nov, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>
> > he seems to be a crack shot.
>
> Evidence?
>
> JUdith
>
> PS. "I was aiming for his head."
>
> "Soolin shot them both."
I don't know about the last remark, but that first one sounded like a
wisecrack to me. After all, hitting the hand when he was aiming for the head
would have been an incredible coincidence, especially since the hand was a
much smaller target. And he *was* hitting the guys he shot at in Shadow,
while both he and the targets were moving. I think that at that point in the
series, Avon was not quite ready to kill in cold blood yet, no matter how
tough and uncaring he pretended to be. I also suspect that he saw that as a
weakness on his part, but I can't think of any evidence for that just now,
except for the fact that later on he *did* kill in cold blood, although not
necessarily face to face. "I just killed Travis for you" is an example that
springs to mind.
Thanks for the odd thoughts, Helen, they were intriguing to say the least.
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:16:15 +0100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Night's Dawn
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F95B46C@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Calle wrote:
> > Does anyone know if this was intentional, i.e. is Mr. Hamilton by
> > any chance a B7 fan?
>
> If so, he hasn't mentioned it anywhere I can find, and I forgot to ask
> him when we had him as GoH at ConFuse in '96. Bummer.
Bummer indeed <sigh>. Every single reference has a different background than
its B7 counterpart, but there are so many of them that I find it difficult
to believe that it was simply coincidence. Oh well, since I've been having
so much fun finding B7 references in that book, I'd probably be disappointed
if I were to find out that it *was* coincidence. Sometimes it's better not
to know :-). The funny part is that I didn't find any of those references in
the first two books of that trilogy, but it's been a while since I've read
those. I'll have to re-read them to see if I can find such references. As if
I needed a reason for that. :-)
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 18:03:24 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion
Message-ID: <008601bf383a$2c151120$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Una said -
>Isn't there meant to be some sort of element of penalty: i.e. payment for a
>crime committed?
That's an interesting use of terms - 'meant to be'. Meant by whom? I have a
suspicion that god is sneaking in here. If god says we are 'meant to' hurt
people who do bad things, so that they 'pay', then if we decide to forgive
and forget are we disobeying god? It could get scary.
Also, do I want to give the state the power to hurt people just because they
are 'bad' people. I mean, who isn't bad? As Hamlet said 'If we were all used
as we deserved, there's none would escape a whipping'.
God I hope my subconscious hasn't just invented that quote from somewhere -
how embarrassing would that be?
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 18:54:53 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Cc: "B7 spin list" <b7spin@metva.com.au>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Punishment for Desertion
Message-ID: <00b801bf383f$bb6b4dd0$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
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I've sent this spinwards as well, as it seems to be getting even less and
less related to B7... ;)
Alison responded:
> Una said -
>
> >Isn't there meant to be some sort of element of penalty: i.e. payment for
a
> >crime committed?
>
> That's an interesting use of terms - 'meant to be'. Meant by whom? I have
a
> suspicion that god is sneaking in here. If god says we are 'meant to' hurt
> people who do bad things, so that they 'pay', then if we decide to forgive
> and forget are we disobeying god? It could get scary.
No, I was just thinking of society, or the community. Isn't this why we have
trial by jury? I'm not speaking in metaphorical terms, just describing what
I understood was in operation in this country. Penalties for crimes are
imposed because 1. we (society in general) think it's a just reward for bad
behaviour and 2. we (society in general) hope that the threat of such
penalties might persuade people not to behave in this way in the first
place.
I'm assuming, incidentally, that this is why we don't allow prisoners to
vote in this country.
I don't think I'm implying some sort of natural justice or grand design in
my use of the phrase 'meant to'. Just trying to draw out the ideas which
underpin the reasons we impose punishment.
Incidentally, I think a society in which people are dislocated from the
consequences of their actions is just as scary. Both ways have extremes.
> Also, do I want to give the state the power to hurt people just because
they
> are 'bad' people. I mean, who isn't bad?
So you're backing Jeffrey Archer all the way, then? :)
I'm happy to see the state not have power to do much if I can help it. But I
*am* happy to see a legal system which penalizes people for crimes, and in
which the idea of penalizing people for crimes which they commit is a key
intellectual notion.
> As Hamlet said 'If we were all used
> as we deserved, there's none would escape a whipping'.
>
> God I hope my subconscious hasn't just invented that quote from
somewhere -
> how embarrassing would that be?
Almost as embarrassing as not remembering your prime numbers.
Una
------------------------------
Date: 26 Nov 1999 19:57:17 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Night's Dawn (Peter F. Hamilton)
Message-ID: <usg0xtrshe.fsf@sture.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>>>>> "Jacqueline" == Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl> writes:
> Bummer indeed <sigh>.
It turns out, however, that someone else talked old SF TV-shows with
him in the bar, and said someone reports that he is at least familiar
with B7. If he's a rabid fan or not remains unknown.
--
Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
This posting is protected by a Whizzo Brand Fnord Filter (TM).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 13:01:29 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Punishment for Desertion
Message-Id: <4.2.2.19991126125600.00ab4340@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Alison Page wrote:
>That's an interesting use of terms - 'meant to be'. Meant by whom?
I would think that was obvious -- by those making the laws, of course.
>God I hope my subconscious hasn't just invented that quote from somewhere -
>how embarrassing would that be?
Polonius: My lord, I will use them according to their desert.
Hamlet: God's bodikins, man, much better; use every man after his
desert
and who should 'scape whipping?
[Hamlet, Act II, Scene 2]
- Lisa
--
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
From Eroica With Love: http://eroica.simplenet.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 20:51:29 -0000
From: Louise Rutter <Louise.Rutter@btinternet.com>
To: "'B7 Lysator'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Odd thought re: Avon
Message-ID: <01BF3850.1E351E40@host62-6-8-224.btinternet.com>
Helen wrote:
> Avon is very, mmm, multitalented for a computers man. Software,
>hardware, non-computer engineering skill, enough familiarity with
>Federation weaponry (Project Avaloln) to tell a gun was non-standrad
>issue by a quick eyeballing of the exterior, some martial arts skills.
>Despite an implied lack of close combat experience (his conversation
>with Jenna "Could you kill a man..."), he seems to be a crack shot.
The computing stuff I can live with - quite a few software people dabble a
bit in hardware and vv. We're talking about the type of people who are
really INTERESTED in computers here (strange folk...). Anyone into hardware
will have a fairly good grounding in electronics, though I think Avon's
ability to reprogram the Avalon android was taking this too far.
In SpaceFall, Avon was, frankly, a crap fighter. He makes a really messy
job out of dealing with the computer guy, and doesn't even think about the
possibility of him waking up again.
If you find yourself in a situation where you're likely to get shot at a
lot, it helps to know the range and accuracy of the guns doing the
shooting. Someone like Avon who believes in being thorough would sit down
and learn the specs of Federation weaponry. He probably also made a point
of teaching himself to fight and shoot while Liberator was wandering from
place to place. Surviving was important to him :-) By the time of Horizon,
his accuracy was fairly good on non-moving targets at least.
Louise
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #329
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