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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 32
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Stupesud
Re: [B7L] Why do men like Avon?
[B7L] Studliness
Re: [B7L] Technology
Re: [B7L] Why do women like Avon?
Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
Re: [B7L] Why do men like Avon?
Re: [B7L] Stupesud
Re: [B7L] Why do women like Avon?
Re: [B7L] The Morrigan in B7
Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Re: [B7L] Stupesud
Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Re: [B7L] Michael Keating in Doctor Who
[B7L] Fanzines, etc.
Re: [B7L] re:remember me?
Re: [B7L] The Morrigan in B7
Fwd: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Re: [B7L] Why do women like Avon?
Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Fwd: Re: [B7L] Why do women like Avon?
Re: Re: [B7L] Why do women like Avon?
Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Re: [B7L] Stupesud
Re: [B7L] Stupesud
Re: [B7L] Stupesud
Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
[B7L] Social engineering
Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Re: [B7L] Ecology
Re: [B7L] Social engineering
[B7L] Renaissance
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:35:35 -0000
From: "Spudgun" <Spudgun@dial.pipex.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Stupesud
Message-Id: <199901161848.TAA00189@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
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There is no such thing as 'healthy debate' with the stultifyingly
ill-informed.
----------
> From: SupeStud00@aol.com
> To: N.Faulkner@tesco.net; blakes7@lysator.liu.se
> Subject: Re: [B7L] Stupesud
> Date: 16 January 1999 17:12
>
> In a message dated 1/16/99 11:50:32 AM EST, N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes:
>
> <<
> From now on I'm doing likewise, and I recommend that other list members
> seriously consider doing so too. If Suddie-poos is so super 'he'
wouldn't
> feel any need to lurk behind a pseudonym. If he can't grow up, he
should
> shut up. If he can't do either, he can just fuck off.
>
> I think you're confusing your dislike of my argument for a dislike of me.
I
> respect people even ehen they disgaree with me. Why can't you do the
same?
>
> My name is Dexter Clay. My profile is open to any AOL member who would
like
> it. There must be other AOL subscribers to this list and if they wish,
they
> can post it. I'm hiding nothing. In fact, I'm probably more honest than
most
> people you meet.
>
> << If this wanker's for real, we should do all we can to satisfy his
craving
> for rejection. By ignoring him. >>
>
> Well, there can be no healthy debate with this attitude.....I welcome
debate
> and discussion with anyone who wishes to disagree with me and can defend
their
> position. And I am grateful for being allowed to post to the list.
>
> Dexter Dice Clay
> The Diceman Cometh.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 19:22:01 -0000
From: "Spudgun" <Spudgun@dial.pipex.com>
To: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>, <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why do men like Avon?
Message-Id: <199901161935.UAA01342@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
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Personaly I like Avon, I feel Avon was unaccustomed to emotional turmoil
before the Anna Grant incident and the ruthelessness, so prevalent in
Avon's character, is the result of that incident. I don't feel it is
inconceivable that such an event could take many years to properly recover
from (if at all).
His behaviour in 'Rumors of death' I felt was acceptable because of who
Avon was and the structure his recent life had taken. It is almost as if he
has ignored emotion through his life and circumstance has put him in a
position where emotional issues have taken precedence over all.
However it is easy to like Avon from a disconnected view point. I wonder
how many people would like him in a real life situation where they had to
relate to and trust him. Possibly Avon would be a prime candidate for
alienation.
----------
> From: Rob Clother <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
> To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
> Subject: Re: [B7L] Why do men like Avon?
> Date: 16 January 1999 14:27
>
>
>
>
> Malissa:
>
> >>Anyone who claims either (1) or (2) is not seeing the whole picture.
> >>Yes, Avon's strength, ruthlessness and independence may be
> >>attractive, but they are not enough to make the whole person
> >>attractive. "Rumours of Death" is the episode that completed the
> >>picture, adding that one final piece that made Avon truly desirable.
> >
> >And do you like or admire or appreciate this piece or not?
>
> Personally speaking, I don't like Avon at all, and I found his behaviour
> in "Rumours of Death" appalling. After what Tarrant and the others had
> done for him, his line "Shut up and let me do what I came here to do"
> was unpardonable, even allowing for the circumstances. Blake would
> never have let him get away with it.
>
> But then, with Blake you've got a more complete man to start off with.
> At once, he's stronger and more emotionally developed than Avon. He
> doesn't run away from his emotions, or anything else in his life. I
> would trust, like and admire Blake -- Avon, I would keep at several
> arms' length.
>
> That's my own perspective. Any other male views of Avon?
>
> -- Rob
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 11:42:09 PST
From: "Penny Dreadful" <pdreadful@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Studliness
Message-Id: <199901161942.LAA27679@f65.hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
1. "Neil" "Faulkner" said:
>If Suddie-poos is so super 'he' wouldn't
>feel any need to lurk behind a pseudonym.
Yeah! S'right! Coward! Booo!
-- Penny Dreadful
2. Judith said women love Avon because:
>The ultimate macho man is useless to a woman. He may be big and
>tough, but what use is that unless he is also capable of deep and
>abiding love? (because macho man would probably leave his woman
>pregnant and barefoot and go away and insemimate half a dozen other
>women and abandon them too. Pregnant women need a man who will care
>for them when they are vulnerable.)
But -- this is fiction, this is pretend. Who posits imaginary pregnancy
as a possible result of her sexual fantasies? Or, if one did, surely one
would also imagine oneself independently wealthy -- invulnerable.
Maybe that's why, even though Avon is the character I *empathise* with
most in all his neurotic glory, I *don't*, um, y'know, feel that way
about him. The threat of deep abiding love...ewww! And cooties, too!
--Penny "I Like 'Em Big And Stupid" Dreadful
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 12:45:37 PST
From: "Don Trower" <gammablue@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Technology
Message-Id: <199901162045.MAA10633@f72.hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
>...more accurate portrayal of society than the often SF view that
>everything is on an even level. If you look at society today, there >is
a complete mix from the state-of-the-art high tech gear to the
> very low tech, or no tech if you take a global view.
Is it the the span of technologies in things like Bladerunner (the rain
and urban decay) - B7 (Blow darts in Animals, ribbon cable mine fields
in ??????) that make them good or that good SF accept and show this
environment.
Don.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 20:22:38 -0000
From: "+ +" <blakean@my-dejanews.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why do women like Avon?
Message-ID: <OHLEOHFHGGJMAAAA@my-dejanews.com>
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I always thought Avon was a psychopath who looked like he was only a couple of years away from looking like a sloppy janitor.
-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:05:44 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
Message-ID: <36A10D38.32A7@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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BTW, everyone, I have found inner peace.
I realize now that Supe---'s strange drivel is the result, not of
wanting to control women, but his own inability to control his life. The
poor boy wishes he could stay home and cook for his beloved, bear
children, and wipe the little moppet's faces. He doesn't believe,
however, that ha _can_ do these things, partly because of the true
biological limitation on reproduction, and partly because he's been
raised in a sexist environment, and can't allow himself to be provided
for. As aresult, he is desperately envious of women who have that
option, and he is INCAPABLE of realizing that what is true of one person
is not true of all; that some women would find little joy in the life he
dreams of.
Understanding is the key to sympathy. Now that I know he his problem is
an overwhelming case of womb envy, I no longer feel the need to argue
with him.
--Avona
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:43:37 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why do men like Avon?
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0116174337-84fRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Sat 16 Jan, Rob Clother wrote:
> Personally speaking, I don't like Avon at all, and I found his behaviour
> in "Rumours of Death" appalling. After what Tarrant and the others had
> done for him, his line "Shut up and let me do what I came here to do"
> was unpardonable, even allowing for the circumstances. Blake would
> never have let him get away with it.
>
> But then, with Blake you've got a more complete man to start off with.
> At once, he's stronger and more emotionally developed than Avon. He
> doesn't run away from his emotions, or anything else in his life. I
> would trust, like and admire Blake -- Avon, I would keep at several
> arms' length.
>
> That's my own perspective. Any other male views of Avon?
Well, <grin> my own opinion as a woman has always been that Avon makes a great
fantasy, but if I had to pick one of them in real life, it would probably be Gan
or Blake.
Avon can be totally dedicated to the person he loves. His actions where Anna
and Blake were concerned show that. However, I don't think I'd be Avon's
type... And if I'm not his type, then I fall into the 'he'll kill me if I get
into the way of something he really wants' category.
Blake and Gan were a bit more gentlemanly about such things. Gan was
unfailingly polite to woman. Blake has been through hell and back again before
the series even starts - that's given him an enotional maturity and has forced
him to evaluate himself. He knows what he is. I'm not sure that he always
likes himself, but he does understand himself. Avon doesn't have that same
degree of self-knowledge because he hides behind what he wants to think of
himself as. His self image is the macho man, but it isn't correct and there are
times when he is forcibly aware of this.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:36:22 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Stupesud
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0116173622-6d1Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Sat 16 Jan, SupeStud00@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 1/16/99 12:09:31 PM EST, lcw@dallas.net writes:
>
> << And don't forget, folks, that most email programs these days do support
> killfiles. You can have your mailer route all of StupeDud's messages
> directly to the trash, with no fuss or bother. This is usually the best
> procedure to follow for flamebaiters. >>
>
> But I'm not flame baiting. Why do you guys assume that someone with a
> differeing opinion is looking to cause trouble? I haven't name called or used
> profanity in anyway. All I've done is presented my view, as connected to B7.
> Don't we have that right here?
He isn't flamebaiting. He has (IMHO) totally erronious ideas regarding
evolution, a complete lack of understanding that homosexuality can have a
genetic basis, and several other erroneous ideas including a lack of
understanding of why women may actually like wimps (I married a wimp and 18
years later, I still love him), but he IS polite in the way he expresses his
views.
As long as he's polite, I'll object to the opinion rather than the person
holding it.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:31:53 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why do women like Avon?
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0116173153-480Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Sat 16 Jan, Rob Clother wrote:
>
> So, to paraphrase what Judith has said,
>
> 1. Women do *not* like Avon purely on account of his machismo;
> 2. Women do *not* like Avon purely on account of his emotional
> vulnerability.
>
> Anyone who claims either (1) or (2) is not seeing the whole picture.
> Yes, Avon's strength, ruthlessness and independence may be attractive,
> but they are not enough to make the whole person attractive. "Rumours
> of Death" is the episode that completed the picture, adding that one
> final piece that made Avon truly desirable.
I believe Paul Darrow's fan mail increased greatly after that episode.
Mind you, an alert Avon fan can find you moments of emotional vulnerability in
plenty of other episodes, but that's far and away the best one. I could
cheerfully cite moments from Star One, Blake, Countdown, etc, but I really must
go away and finish laying out 'Renaissance' which - to nobody's surprise -
contains moments with an emotionally vulnerable Avon having to face horrors
including the Inquisition, Vila having to make agonising decisions to try and
protect those he loves and Blake being a prisoner of the Medicis. They also (on
the other side) manage military victories, scientific advances and great art.
Every female fan who has read it to date thinks it's wonderful. That includes
me, the artist, the prof-reader, the fan who's been reading the backs of the
recycled paper that I write my letters on, the friend who recommended it to me,
several of the writer's friends, etc.
In other words, Avon's fans (as Rob summarised above) don't want a macho or a
wimp. We want a man who posesses the best qulities of both.
As proof of the fact that many women are attracted to wimps, I offer Vila. A
man who lacks overwhelming strength or any visible macho qualities. None the
less, he has his devoted female fans. Vila's qualities are more subtle. I will
leave it to one of his devotees to explain the charm of a gentle harmless man
with nimble fingers and a quick mind.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:19:32 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Morrigan in B7
Message-ID: <36A11074.2018@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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As the general debate with Supe-Womb-envy rages on, I can't help but
think that if I were single, I would probably be trying to find out if
Rob or Stephen were available.
Likewise, I find myself thinking about the men of Blake's 7. Setting
aside their looks, which ones would be aceptable to me for a romantic
partner, and which ones wouldn't.
Blake is too patricarchal. He may not be sexist; he bosses everyone
equally. But he bosses.
Gan is pleasent, but wouldn't give me the intellectual challenge I'd
want in a mate.
Vila has a very good personlity if he would sober up.
Avon-- I fear not. I like being needed. He doesn't need anyone, or likes
to act like he doesn't.
Tarrant? I hate to say it, but there's possibilities. He respects the
women around him. He accepts Servalan on her own terms. Sometimes I
think if I could get past Steven Pacey to the true Tarrant, I might
actually like him.
What do other women think of the Blake's 7 guys, if they consider, not a
dream romance, but the way real life usually works?
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:24:03 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Message-ID: <36A11183.3CC5@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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<< I have a sneaky suspiction that homosexuality
among men is nature's way of ensuring that extra carers are available
for
large
families.>>
Homosexuality, IMHO, has little to do with "nature"
(siad Super-Womb-Envy)
IYHO, maybe, but some of us actually know a few things about nature.
There are homosexual dolphins and deer in the wild. The rate of
homosexuality in rats rises with overpopulation, which would suggest a
natural mechanism kicks in to try to control the crowding.
--Avona
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:26:54 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Stupesud
Message-ID: <36A1122E.1336@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Neil Faulkner wrote:
>
>
> If this wanker's for real, we should do all we can to satisfy his craving
> for rejection. By ignoring him.
>
> Neil
That reminds me, I've heard on this list about 'killfiling' people. Can
this be easily done on Netscape? Can someone tell me how?
--Avona
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:29:34 -0000
From: "+ +" <blakean@my-dejanews.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Message-ID: <MJNNAABINANMAAAA@my-dejanews.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Sat, 16 Jan 1999 07:35:01 SupeStud00 wrote:
>
>Their husbands will provide for them. And if there aren't enough men to go
>around, I suppose some will have to double up.
Polygamy is at least as decadent and incompatible with the traditional view of the family as homosexuality.
> <<Mens work: That is a quaint notion in itself: what, exactly, is men's
> work?>>
>
>Anything not included in home management.
This proves you're not a real man at all.
><< From the dim dawn of pre-history, women grew the food,
> manufactured the clothes, ranched the animals, created the home
> furnishings - dishes, bedding, even walls and floors of straw.>>
>
>Exactly......home management.
In a primitive society, with a low population and virtually no technology, yes. That's not the reality you live in today. Your philosophy doesn't take into account the concept of overpopulation, and the fact that nature has more than one way to deal with it.
-----== Sent via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Easy access to 50,000+ discussion forums
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:29:08 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Michael Keating in Doctor Who
Message-ID: <36A112B4.7050@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Calle Dybedahl wrote:
>
> As I write this, BBC Prime is showing a Doctor Who episode with
> Micheal Keating in it. There's also a girl who seems to be played by
> the same actress who did Hanna in "Shadow". Just out of curiosity,
> which DW episode is it? I didn't see the beginning, unfortunately.
>
That would be "The Sunmakers"
------------------------------
Date: 16 Jan 1999 14:05:14 -0800
From: "Ma.James" <ma@ssdgwy.mdc.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Fanzines, etc.
Message-ID: <n1295626867.91808@SSDGWY.mdc.com>
Hello Everyone
I'm sorry to send a private message to the list but it's the only way I know of
to be sure to reach everyone I need to.
Several of you correspond privately with Carol Kinkade. I wanted to let you
know that if you are expecting any email from her, she will be away for some
time. Her father passed away Jan 13.
Some of you are buying/selling/trading fanzines with her. If anyone is
expecting anything from her or has sent anything to her, be assured that I will
see to it that everything is completed. Please contact me with any questions
regarding the fanzines. Thanks.
Pat Fenech, Carol is most anxious about a package she sent to you. Have you
received it yet?
Again, I apologize for having to send this to the list.
Thanks, Jim
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:43:19 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: Tramila <cdmunoz@earthlink.net>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] re:remember me?
Message-ID: <36A11607.654F@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Tramila wrote:
> (Avona, in response to Pat's desire to hear more of our Avon & Vila-esque conversations) ::slow, lopsided smile:: I'm ready. Tramila, care for some
> >Andrenaline and Soma?
>
> Tramila passes her cup for a refill.
>
> >Perhaps we can drown out the sexist rantings of
> >SupeDud with a glass of the green and a bit of chat.
> >Stole anything nice for Christmas?
>
> Steal? Why Avona, you know that I would NEVER steal <takes a long sip of
> soma> then looks as angelic as possible.
>
> Tramila looks both ways before explaining her latest scheme to Avona in a
> low voice.
> "So what do you think, huh?"
That would... make it all worthwhile."
>
> Tramila
> who is soooooo stupid that she just realized that her name rhymes with Vila.
> Believe me, it was just a coincidence.....but I like it. :)
::long pause:: You... didn't... realize...? Next thing, you'll be
telling us that you bought your Delta Grade.
--Avona
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:25:10 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Morrigan in B7
Message-Id: <199901162223.QAA17084@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>What do other women think of the Blake's 7 guys, if they consider, not a
>dream romance, but the way real life usually works?
I'm afraid none of them appeal to me even in the "dream romance" category.
Real life is right out, as I don't have the slightest interest in acquiring
a romantic partner, but I don't think I'd be very compatible with any of
those chaps anyway.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 15:34:33 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Message-ID: <19990116233433.15921.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
<Wrong conclusion....families would be intact, society would thrive>
Just like they did in the Third Reich (your ideas are not new, you know
- your posts are increasingly sounding like a tract from the Nazi
Women's League. Maybe in a previous life..?)
I'm with those who are stopping reading the silly creature's posts.
Maybe if enough of us do it...
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:01:58 +1000
From: "Taina Nieminen" <tenzil@bigpond.com>
To: "B7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why do women like Avon?
Message-ID: <00eb01be41ac$9a6a7140$6f6f6f6f@tenzil>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rob said:
>So, to paraphrase what Judith has said,
>
>1. Women do *not* like Avon purely on account of his machismo;
>2. Women do *not* like Avon purely on account of his emotional
>vulnerability.
Personally, I add:
3. Physical attractiveness, which makes season 4 the least appealing for me.
He's gorgeous, and his voice, when he's being mellow, his voice ...
Taina
- ------------------------------
"What's 'friends,' Lyle?"
"It's like a chemical reaction between people, Condo."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 11:12:12 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Message-ID: <19990117111212.00790@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
The problem with SuperStud's posts is not that they are offensive, but
that, after the first few, they are *boring*. He is not debating, he
is dogmatizing. If he actually does believe this stuff (something
which I find incredible) then he is a red-necked Fundamentalist and no
amount of argument is going to change his mind. If he doesn't believe
this stuff, then it is a troll that has gone on too long, because it
is *boring*. No point in reading his posts any more, simply because he
has absolutely nothing new to say. There's no point in fantasizing
about him being eaten by pirhranas, because that simply prolongs the
troll -- though I must give him bonus points for a skin as thick as
armour tank, after all the denigration which has been cast his way.
As for the actual question which is being debated, I think I come down
somewhere in the middle. Women *are* different from men, not just
physically, but psychologically, but that doesn't mean that mothers
and only mothers should be the primary caregivers. The important
thing, IMHO, is that a child needs *two* parents, and only one of them
should work, or at least, their work should be such (say, part-time
work) that one or the other or both of them have the time to dedicate
to the care of the child(ren). Single parenting (whether because of
divorce or carelessness or desertion) is fragmenting society. The
nuclear family is being destroyed, let alone the extended family. A
Bad Thing. (Kathryn refrains from going on about how large families
are a Good Thing, not to mention extended families with single Aunts.)
To bring this back to Blake's 7, we have very little evidence about
how the society is organized. They do still have husbands and wives,
though most of the time, when we actually meet them, they seem to be
widows and widowers, with one or no children at all!
- Hal Mellanby, widower, one child, one adopted child
- Ensor Sr, no info about wife, one child
- Sula, married to Chesku (now deceased), no info about children
- Vena, married to Muller (now deceased), no info about children
Avon apparently had one brother.
Jenna was close to her mother.
Tarrant had a twin brother.
Blake had a brother and a sister, not to mention an uncle and a
cousin.
Gan had "a woman", but whether she was his wife or merely lover, we
don't know. (The song "Harris and the Mare" suddenly sprung to my
mind, as the kind of scenario which might have caused Gan to kill the
trooper. Judith P. knows whereof what I speak... (-8 )
Apart from that, we know nothing.
We have no data about divorce, whether it was common, uncommon or even
illegal. All we know is that marriage exists, and families appear to
be small. Whether that is simply that Alpha families are small, and
Delta families are not, we have no data either. It could be (as some
fans have proposed) that Delta families are large. One economic
reason for that is the old one, that with no government social
support, that a large family is a form of social security (as is a
large extended familiy) -- that the family helps each other out.
Oh, and Avon? Well, as people already know, I'm one of the (few?)
female Avon fans who doesn't lust after him. Avon's Sympathetic
Kindred Spirit. Strictly platonic. I'd happily have a long-distance
relationship with him; a meeting of minds -- as far away as possible,
like, via email. That way, he couldn't kill me if things went wrong.
<grin>
Kathryn A.
A.S.K.S.
-=-=-=-=-=-
"He whose ear heeds wholesome admonition will abide among the wise."
Proverbs 15:31
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 16:20:12 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Why do women like Avon?
Message-ID: <19990117002013.26660.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Rob said:
>So, to paraphrase what Judith has said,
>1. Women do *not* like Avon purely on account of his machismo;
>2. Women do *not* like Avon purely on account of his emotional
vulnerability.
And Taina (quite rightly) adds:
>3. Physical attractiveness, which makes season 4 the least appealing
for me.
>He's gorgeous, and his voice, when he's being mellow, his voice ...
Oh, and the intelligence, the way he has with words, the sense of
humour...the smile.
PS - I haven't seen Rumours of Death for years, so I can't comment on
that - and my favourite season is no 2 anyway (nearly as fond of Blake
as I am of Avon).
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 10:32:49 +1000
From: "Taina Nieminen" <tenzil@bigpond.com>
To: "B7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Why do women like Avon?
Message-ID: <011701be41b0$e9e3c2e0$6f6f6f6f@tenzil>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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>Oh, and the intelligence, the way he has with words, the sense of
>humour...the smile.
Yes, the smile. How could I forget the smile? One of my flatmates once
counted as I rewound and replayed one particular smile. 18 times.
Taina
- ------------------------------
"What's 'friends,' Lyle?"
"It's like a chemical reaction between people, Condo."
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 18:48:24 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Message-Id: <199901170045.SAA29054@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Kathryn Andersen wrote:
>They do still have husbands and wives, though most of the time, when we
>actually meet them, they seem to be widows and widowers, with one or no
>children at all!
To add to your list: Kasabi, one child, no info about the child's father.
As far as I can recall, she's the only actual mother we see on the show.
(Of course, in the script Kasabi -- then "Kasabian" -- was Veron's
*father*...)
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@rsc.raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:23:02 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: Jenni-Alison@dial.pipex.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Stupesud
Message-ID: <fc42b105.36a14986@aol.com>
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In a message dated 1/16/99 1:20:27 PM EST, Jenni-Alison@dial.pipex.com writes:
<< From the posts I've seen you respond to you aren't indulging in anything
like a debate. Others are posting reasoned arguments with historical,
sociological or other forms of evidence and you're responding with your own
gut instincts.>>
Is there something wrong with that?
<< While your opinions are as valid as anyone else's (and
following your usual style of response to mails you'll probably put
something like a "thank you" here)>>
Are you attacking my efforts to be polite?
<< you seem incapable of reading or
considering anyone else's.>>
Prove it. I read and consider all opinions here.....I just don't agree with
them.
<< This means any debate is pointless - you can't
convince us because you have no data, just unsubstantiated opinion and we
can't convince you because you aren't listening.>>
How do you know I'm not listening....is it because I'm not in agreement?
<< Thus any continued
interaction would purely be for humour value, and this joke has run it's
course. >>
This was never a joke.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:25:20 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: Spudgun@dial.pipex.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Stupesud
Message-ID: <8ff01486.36a14a10@aol.com>
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In a message dated 1/16/99 1:50:29 PM EST, Spudgun@dial.pipex.com writes:
<<
There is no such thing as 'healthy debate' with the stultifyingly
ill-informed. >>
Don't be so hard on yourself. Most of the posters to this list seem very well
informed.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:29:53 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk, Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Stupesud
Message-ID: <41419887.36a14b21@aol.com>
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In a message dated 1/16/99 4:35:55 PM EST, Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk writes:
<<
He isn't flamebaiting. He has (IMHO) totally erronious ideas regarding
evolution, a complete lack of understanding that homosexuality can have a
genetic basis, and several other erroneous ideas including a lack of
understanding of why women may actually like wimps (I married a wimp and 18
years later, I still love him), but he IS polite in the way he expresses his
views.
As long as he's polite, I'll object to the opinion rather than the person
holding it. >>
Thanks Judith.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:32:42 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: avona@jps.net, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Woman in B7
Message-ID: <72ae0188.36a14bca@aol.com>
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In a message dated 1/16/99 4:39:32 PM EST, avona@jps.net writes:
<<
BTW, everyone, I have found inner peace.
I realize now that Supe---'s strange drivel is the result, not of
wanting to control women, but his own inability to control his life. The
poor boy wishes he could stay home and cook for his beloved, bear
children, and wipe the little moppet's faces. He doesn't believe,
however, that ha _can_ do these things, partly because of the true
biological limitation on reproduction, and partly because he's been
raised in a sexist environment, and can't allow himself to be provided
for. As aresult, he is desperately envious of women who have that
option, and he is INCAPABLE of realizing that what is true of one person
is not true of all; that some women would find little joy in the life he
dreams of.
Understanding is the key to sympathy. Now that I know he his problem is
an overwhelming case of womb envy, I no longer feel the need to argue
with him. >>
Has this always been your strategy....attack the person when you cannot
effectively attck the argument. It doesn't matter, I still respect you and
won't resort to name calling. I will say that I was raised in a typical
American nuclera family and my mother did work. I think our family would have
been more efficient had she not.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:36:04 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: blakean@my-dejanews.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Message-ID: <29607508.36a14c94@aol.com>
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In a message dated 1/16/99 4:59:12 PM EST, blakean@my-dejanews.com writes:
<<
>Their husbands will provide for them. And if there aren't enough men to go
>around, I suppose some will have to double up.
<< Polygamy is at least as decadent and incompatible with the traditional view
of the family as homosexuality.>>
If it further adds to the reproduction of the race, i argue it isn't contrary
to nature.
> <<Mens work: That is a quaint notion in itself: what, exactly, is men's
> work?>>
>
>Anything not included in home management.
<<This proves you're not a real man at all.>>
We've met before?
><< From the dim dawn of pre-history, women grew the food,
> manufactured the clothes, ranched the animals, created the home
> furnishings - dishes, bedding, even walls and floors of straw.>>
>
>Exactly......home management.
<< In a primitive society, with a low population and virtually no technology,
yes. That's not the reality you live in today. Your philosophy doesn't take
into account the concept of overpopulation, and the fact that nature has more
than one way to deal with it. >>
I'm interested in this view. Explain further please........
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:38:29 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Trolling 101
Message-ID: <d78f4689.36a14d25@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 1/16/99 6:36:42 PM EST, smanton@hotmail.com writes:
<<
<Wrong conclusion....families would be intact, society would thrive>
Just like they did in the Third Reich (your ideas are not new, you know
- your posts are increasingly sounding like a tract from the Nazi
Women's League. Maybe in a previous life..?)
Calling me a Nazi does not support your point.
<<I'm with those who are stopping reading the silly creature's posts.
Maybe if enough of us do it... >>
You don't know what you'll be missing.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 21:39:50 EST
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: kat@welkin.apana.org.au, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Women, B7 and Avon
Message-ID: <11ca4909.36a14d76@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 1/16/99 7:14:37 PM EST, kat@welkin.apana.org.au writes:
<< Women *are* different from men, not just
physically, but psychologically >>
And spiritually.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 99 02:48:00 GMT
From: s.thompson8@genie.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Social engineering
Message-Id: <199901170255.CAA15038@rock103.genie.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
You know, it occurs to me in thinking about this question of how best to
bring up well-adjusted children that there is another possible solution, and
one that is in fact hinted at in canonical B7: communal child-rearing by
professionals. If you have an underpopulation problem due to some sort of
disaster, this might be the best way to go. The biological parents can
produce more children if their personal resources aren't being consumed by
the ones they already have. Bad parents of both sexes can be weeded out, as
only those who like and are good at the work will be doing the child-care.
The small hint that occurs, I think, in the canon is when Bayban makes a
remark about Blake, something to the effect that "I was on the wanted list
before he crawled out of his creche." If we assume that Bayban didn't
actually know anything about Blake's personal history and was just assuming
the most likely sort of background for him, and that "creche" in context
means something like child-care center, that does rather suggest that a
communal arrangement was standard.
People in B7 do still know who their parents and siblings are; presumably
they would visit them at holidays. I would imagine the "creche" as being
something like a boarding school, but starting at birth, or close to it.
I'd also imagine legal majority coming at what to us would seem like a young
age-- around puberty, probably, which has plenty of historical precedents.
So we can imagine young Vila being transported along with the adult
criminals at 14 (as he claims in Stardrive), and perhaps young Tarrant going
into intensive pilot training at the FSA at about the same age (we were told
that it takes a clever man six years to become a pilot, and he was only in
his early 20s and had apparently been on his own as a mercenary for at least
a year or two when he showed up on Liberator).
I might also add that I don't think legal repression of women's rights would
necessarily keep someone like Servalan down. Almost every time and place in
human history has had at least a few powerful women, even if they had to
rule through male puppets. You can hardly get more sexually repressive than
19th-C. China, a country that physically crippled nearly half its population
to keep them in their place; and yet it was ruled de facto by a woman, the
Empress Dowager who controlled a series of puppet emperors, for quite some
time. If Servalan wasn't the Supreme Commander herself, she'd be the
mistress-- or mother!-- of a puppet Supreme Commander, pulling his strings
behind the scenes.
Not that this role is restricted to women, of course. The original referent
of the expression "eminence grise" (which I may well have misspelled as I
don't know French very well) was male, and this seems to be more or less the
role Avon had in mind for himself when he went in search of Blake in "Blake."
Sarah T.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 14:57:45 +1000
From: "Taina Nieminen" <tenzil@bigpond.com>
To: "B7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Message-ID: <000c01be41d5$ed2643e0$6f6f6f6f@tenzil>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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>You can hardly get more sexually repressive than
>19th-C. China, a country that physically crippled nearly half its
population
>to keep them in their place; and yet it was ruled de facto by a woman, the
>Empress Dowager who controlled a series of puppet emperors, for quite some
>time.
One of the Tang emperors (about 8th century AD, I forget exactly when) was a
woman. She's usually referred to as Empress Wu in history texts, but she
ruled in her own right as Emperor, using the title reserved for men. She
started her career as an Emperor's concubine, was sent to a Buddhist nunnery
when he died, had herself brought back to the palace and then manouevered
herself into a position of sufficient power to take over as Emperor when the
next (or the one after, I can't remember the details) died.
I've always thought that the Federation was a very patriarchal society, in
which it was difficult, but not impossible, for women to achieve positions
of high power. The only powerful women who come to mind right now are
Servalan, and Governor Le Grand in Voice from the Past.
Taina
- ------------------------------
"What's 'friends,' Lyle?"
"It's like a chemical reaction between people, Condo."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 07:14:37 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ecology
Message-ID: <01d301be41ea$3f86bca0$d518ac3e@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>You had said the strong prey on the weak, who chose to be weak. But
>bacteria and viruses prey on all life. So that implies that a lion
>choses to be weaker than the e. coli that lays it low. Just thought your
>own statement was oddly worded, but it looks like I didn't quote enough
>to make my reference clear.
Ahem, I never said that. Someone Else said that, as part of a wider
misunderstanding of nature concocted to suit his (or her - who cares
anyway?) rampant misogyny. Neither predators nor prey (or parasites for
that matter) have any _choice_ over the niches they occupy in the food web,
they merely fulfil their alloted role. And each is at the mercy of its food
supply. No grass, and the rabbits die. No rabbits, and the foxes die. No
foxes, and the fleas have a hard time. No responses to a certain
individual, and his/er extinction from this list is hopefully guaranteed.
At least those of us human beings who care to make the effort can rise above
the laws of nature, and exercise a level of choice in our ecological - as
well as social - roles. It is the responsibility implied by our capacity
for reason.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 01:51:14 PST
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Social engineering
Message-ID: <19990117095115.10203.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
>I've always thought that the Federation was a very patriarchal
>society, in which it was difficult, but not impossible, for women to
>achieve positions of high power. The only powerful women who come to
>mind right now are Servalan, and Governor Le Grand in Voice from the
>Past.
There's Morag, from "The Way Back", and there's Sula. Neither had
attained status as high as Servalan or Le Grand, but it's clear they
were major players in the Federation hierarchy.
-- Rob
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 02:04:08 PST
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se, Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk
Subject: [B7L] Renaissance
Message-ID: <19990117100409.27171.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Judith:
>I really must go away and finish laying out 'Renaissance' which - to
>nobody's surprise - contains moments with an emotionally vulnerable
>Avon having to face horrors including the Inquisition, Vila having
>to make agonising decisions to try and protect those he loves and
>Blake being a prisoner of the Medicis. They also (on the other
>side) manage military victories, scientific advances and great art.
You're kidding! Judith, when is this going to become available, and how
will I be able to get hold of a copy?
-- Rob
______________________________________________________
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--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #32
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