From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #315 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/315 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 315 Today's Topics: Re: Re [B7L] Why Dystopia? Re: Re [B7L] Why Dystopia? Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #312) [B7L] Avon & Cally [B7L] Avona & Cally [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #314 [B7L] Mornington Crescent (was Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #314) Re: [B7L] Mornington Crescent (was Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #314) Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #312) [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? Re: [B7L] Mornington Crescent (was Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #314) Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? [B7L] Cleaning Libby (was Mornington Crescent) Re: Re [B7L] Why Dystopia? Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 15:41:05 -0600 From: "Reuben Herfindahl" To: "Neil Faulkner" Cc: "lysator" Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Why Dystopia? Message-ID: <005301bf2a31$f6f70090$450114ac@misnt1.tursso.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I was having a distinctly birdless time when I went out this morning, and as >usual my mind started drifting from things feathered and I found myself >wondering why dystopian visions like B7 are so popular in SF, and especially >in Western liberal democracies. Aside from the obvious dramatic potential a >dystopia offers compared to utopias (Happy Valley is doubtless a lovely >place, but what actually -happens- there?), I thought of four possibilities. > Maybe because it appeals to the "love of the dark" that seems to run through so many of us. (Why that exists is a whole other discussion). Or possibly, it's the "No matter how much my life sucks, these guys have it way worse" theory. Perhaps even the morality lesson aspect, "If we don't stop doing X this will be the end result". Or perhaps the light seems to shine brighter in a darker environment. Reuben http://www.reuben.net/blake/ reuben at reuben dot net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 22:58:26 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Why Dystopia? Message-ID: <002401bf2a3c$e51dc100$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a good one Neil. >Or perhaps the light seems to shine brighter in a darker environment. > >Reuben True. Here's another idea too - normally we go along with the rules of our society, so that we are implicitly supporting all the bad things that go on - or we rebel against society, and so we undermine the good bits. Either way there is tension and guilt. And this applies to every society, because they all have a mix of good and bad. But if we imagine ourselves in a dystopia, all of that anxiety is dissipated. There is no obligation to support the rule of law - except for expediency (Servalan). However selfish you are (Avon and Vila) you are still 'better' than the laws you break. However flawed your rebellion (Blake, Cally) you are on the good side. Like having a wicked stepmother in a fairy story. I don't this is the whole deal, but it might be part of it. Alison ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 13:50:34 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #312) Message-ID: <19991109025035.78222.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Sally Manton" >Somewhat, but it's still there. He doesn't care for perople per >se - and he's stuck with this lot. Quote from a collection, from Somerset Maugham: "I've always been interested in people, but I've never liked them." Regards Joanne Mr Moony presents his compliments to Professor Snape, and begs him to keep his abnormally large nose out of other people's business. --J K Rowlings, Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 20:43:12 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Avon & Cally Message-ID: <38279850.174A@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Not nice > >enough to stop him wanting to dump her next ep, though). > > Given how she'd succeeded in her sabotage by pretending interest in > him/his work _and he fell for it_, that's what you'd expect him to say. > Besides, look at the stuff he says about Blake. He'd suggested dumping > him, too. > Hmmm.... I am starting to get a tune going through my head... to the tune of "You Always Hurt the One You Love"... --Avona ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 20:54:47 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Avona & Cally Message-ID: <38279B06.20FD@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Agreed, with hindsight, but that wasn't why either objected, was > it? Avon thought saving 'people he doesn't even know' a waste of > time better spent killing someone he nughtn't know but hates - the inherent > dangers were very much an afterthought. Cally objected because Seeking > Revenge Is Wrong. > Or... maybe he felt he had to bury the last tie to his past, the emotional shadow dogging him, before he could be ready to lead properly (or love again?)-- don't really think that squares with his disagreeable attitude about the Aurons, except that it might be a trap, and it *was* (if we want to give points for that). Cally may have objected, saying Revnge Is Wrong (something that didn't seem to bother her other times... that convienient conscience), but maybe she meant Who Is Anna and Why Are You Still Jonesing For Her. LOL! Well, I don't really think those suggestions I made are right, but I must rewatch the episodes soon. I know they did take very different stances in the episodes, and yet, it was about this time that I noticed them trying to be there emotionally for each other. --Avona ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 21:00:11 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #314 Message-ID: <38279C4A.20D8@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you Neil, for the lovely summary and map for Mornington Crescent. I tried explaining the game to some other fans... but this speaks for itself. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 21:17:34 -0700 From: Penny Dreadful To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Mornington Crescent (was Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #314) Message-Id: <4.1.19991108210721.009475d0@mail.powersurfr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:00 PM 08/11/99 -0700, Helen Krummenacker wrote: >Thank you Neil, for the lovely summary and map for Mornington Crescent. >I tried explaining the game to some other fans... but this speaks for >itself. No doubt I will regret asking, but the question has nagged at me since back when people were first playing this game: (a) Am I missing some incredibly subtle in-jokes? (b) Am I missing some incredibly *obvious* in-jokes? (c) Was it all purely random free-association gobbledegook? (d) All of the above? (e) None of the above? --Penny "Fill In The Oval Fully With A Sharpened HB Pencil" Dreadful -- For A Dread Time, Call Penny: http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 15:52:27 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Mornington Crescent (was Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #314) Message-ID: <19991109045227.12208.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Penny Dreadful >No doubt I will regret asking, but the question has nagged at me since back >when people were first playing this game: >(a) Am I missing some incredibly subtle in-jokes? >(b) Am I missing some incredibly *obvious* in-jokes? >(c) Was it all purely random free-association gobbledegook? >(d) All of the above? >(e) None of the above? >--Penny "Fill In The Oval Fully With A Sharpened HB Pencil" Dreadful Don't worry, Penny, you're not alone. Even reading games from various websites hasn't helped. If I was unable to wrap my brain around explanations from those sites, then I doubt that anything, up to and including listening to the radio programme it comes from, will help me. Sounds like Vila would enjoy it, purely random free-association gobblegook or not Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 00:30:11 EST From: Pherber@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #312) Message-ID: <0.d62b9dee.25590b63@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 11/7/99 11:09:40 PM Mountain Standard Time, rilliara@juno.com writes: > Given how she'd succeeded in her sabotage by pretending interest in > him/his work _and he fell for it_, that's what you'd expect him to say. That's one of my favorite A/C scenes in the entire series - I love the sort of bewildered look he gives her at first, like he's so surprised Cally would flirt with him that he doesn't quite know how to respond. It makes him seem very young and innocent, somehow... Nina ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 99 05:41:00 GMT From: s.thompson8@genie.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? Message-Id: <199911090550.FAA01137@rock103.genie.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Neil said: >I was having a distinctly birdless time when I went out this morning, and >as >usual my mind started drifting from things feathered and I found myself >wondering why dystopian visions like B7 are so popular in SF, and >especially >in Western liberal democracies. Aside from the obvious dramatic potential >a >dystopia offers compared to utopias (Happy Valley is doubtless a lovely >place, but what actually -happens- there?), I thought of four >possibilities. > >(1) The fictional dystopia functions as a convenient externalisation of the >viewer's fear of living under such actual conditions. And perhaps as an Awful Warning and a reminder of the need to fight whatever it is you think will lead to such a society. >(2) The fictional dystopia mirrors the viewer's fear that s/he might >actually be living in such a society. > >(3) The fictional dystopia functions as a vision of society as the viewer >would like to think it actually is (the Cynic's Wish-Fulfilment theory). I think this reason can also be stated in a less cynical way. I think a major reason for the popularity of B7 is that it offers fictional confirmation of the fact that sometimes awful things really do happen in life =and it's not your fault=. This can be perversely comforting. >(4) The fictional dystopia is genuinely attractive compared to the viewer's >actual experience of real life (the viewer presumably identifying with the >gallant few who courageously challenge the tyrannical monolith etc, with or >without the cognitive realisation that the reality would not be half as >much fun as it is on television and probably wouldn't last half as long >either). I would suggest another possibility that is almost the opposite of 4, namely: (5) The fictional dystopia is so much worse than the viewer's own experience of life that everyday miseries seem much less serious by comparison. For instance, lots of us have been betrayed in some sense by a lover, but few if any of us have found that the beloved was a member of the secret police all along and only seduced us to spy on us! Sarah T. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 23:19:03 -0700 From: Penny Dreadful To: "lysator" Subject: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? Message-Id: <4.1.19991108214752.0092d100@mail.powersurfr.com> Message-Id: <4.1.19991108214752.0092d100@mail.powersurfr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Why do *I* prefer B7's dystopianism to Star Trek's sickmaking optimism? Basically I suppose because I truly do believe that Evil Is The Nature Of Mankind along with every other bitter cynical negative catchphrase that there is. Though I am waiting eagerly to be talked out of said worldview. Come one come all. Moreover, lazy I can far more easily identify with Blake's ditzy fanaticism, Avon's perpetual PMS, Vila's polymorphously addictive personality, etc. than with all Starfleet's overachieving best and brightest. That degree of efficiently adjusted cool competence makes me tired just watching it. -- For A Dread Time, Call Penny: http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 02:20:33 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Mornington Crescent (was Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #314) Message-ID: <19991109102034.3439.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >No doubt I will regret asking, but the question has nagged at me since back >when people were first playing this game: > >(a) Am I missing some incredibly subtle in-jokes? >(b) Am I missing some incredibly *obvious* in-jokes? >(c) Was it all purely random free-association gobbledegook? >(d) All of the above? >(e) None of the above? In order to excel at Mornington Crescent, one needs several years of hard training, a strict diet of Radio 4, and encyclopaedic knowledge of every last Harold Pinter play. But I shouldn't have told you that... -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 15:41:57 +0000 From: Una McCormack To: lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? Message-ID: <382840C5.B84B31DE@q-research.connectfree.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Penny Dreadful wrote: > > Why do *I* prefer B7's dystopianism to Star Trek's sickmaking optimism? > Basically I suppose because I truly do believe that Evil Is The Nature Of > Mankind along with every other bitter cynical negative catchphrase that > there is. Though I am waiting eagerly to be talked out of said worldview. > Come one come all. Sorry, can't help you with that one. > Moreover, lazy I can far more easily identify with Blake's ditzy > fanaticism, Avon's perpetual PMS, Vila's polymorphously addictive > personality, etc. Those are very nice character sketches. > than with all Starfleet's overachieving best and > brightest. That degree of efficiently adjusted cool competence makes me > tired just watching it. One of the reasons I like DS9 a lot more than than any other ST is that it at least allows for the possibility of people being shite, and doesn't have nearly as much of the shiny happy people feel. Which throws the whole ST setting into much sharper relief. But you've summed up exactly why B7 is infinitely better than ST. And B7 is funny and scripted to perfection. Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 10:08:26 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? Message-ID: <19991109180826.56975.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed In answer to Neil's original question about why we in the West prefer dystopianism to optimism, I'm not sure "we" do. After all, Star Trek is, was, and always will be, more popular than Blake's 7. In fact, Blake's 7 fans like us are more common than you might have guessed, but we're still weirdos in the grand scheme of things. The more interesting question, as Penny pointed out implicitly, isn't "Why do *we* prefer dystopia?" as "Why do *I* prefer dystopia?". >Why do *I* prefer B7's dystopianism to Star Trek's sickmaking optimism? >Basically I suppose because I truly do believe that Evil Is The Nature Of >Mankind along with every other bitter cynical negative catchphrase that >there is. Personally, I prefer the B7 dystopia because I believe in paradoxes. I believe that honest, well-intentioned people can end up hurting innocents, and that selfish, machiavellian people can look after themselves and ultimately achieve the greater good. At least B7 gives us a storyline that gives such things a chance to happen. It's all way, way too clearcut in Star Trek. And, when it comes down to it, suffering makes for better drama than happiness. That's why Hamlet is a more memorable character than Big Gay Al (though not by much, I have to concede). -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 18:56:29 +0000 From: Nicola Collie To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Cleaning Libby (was Mornington Crescent) Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I said: >> UK readers may wish to know that ISIHAC is starting a new series on Radio 4 >> on Monday at 6:30pm. Which means that I should probably refrain from eating >> or drinking until 7pm. and Una replied: >Go on - live dangerously. Only if you'll promise to come around and help scrub semi-masticated dinner off the soft furnishings :) Do you think the interior decor of the Liberator was designed with ease of cleaning in mind? Keep in mind the lurid colours of the drinks, and the disastrous effect of chucking Slime With Worms about the place. Nicola ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 20:18:48 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Why Dystopia? Message-ID: <006501bf2af0$dfd59f60$85418cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison wrote: >Here's another idea too - normally we go along with the rules of our >society, so that we are implicitly supporting all the bad things that go >on - or we rebel against society, and so we undermine the good bits. Either >way there is tension and guilt. And this applies to every society, because >they all have a mix of good and bad. > >But if we imagine ourselves in a dystopia, all of that anxiety is >dissipated. There is no obligation to support the rule of law - except for >expediency (Servalan). However selfish you are (Avon and Vila) you are still >'better' than the laws you break. However flawed your rebellion (Blake, >Cally) you are on the good side. Like having a wicked stepmother in a fairy >story. > >I don't this is the whole deal, but it might be part of it. I think the tension/guilt thing probably does apply in Real Life, but the escape tends to take the form of either self-entrenchment in one's position or simply not thinking about it. I doubt if dystopian visions act as a safety valve. It could be that the dystopian vision simply acts as a reflection of our fear of the future, which isn't a terribly flattering motive to bestow on a science fiction fan. Aren't we skiffy types supposed to be more prepared for whatever the future throws at us, not less? Though I'm not convinced by that either. It might be that the dystopian elements injects a measure of credibility into the incredible. SF, after all, deals with imagined futures, imagined societies and technologies, all of which strains the credibility. The obvious route to restoring the credibility factor is through the characters, since they are (usually) people, just like us. They represent our direct connection with the incredible. And since we know through experience that few if any people are entirely good or entirely bad, this familiar dichotomy can be located within the characters, possibly even exagerrated. I must admit I don't go much for pseudo-dystopias where the two-dimensionally good guys square off against the two-dimensionally evil baddies, which is why Star Wars doesn't make the grade, IMO. Hmm, there's obviously far more to this than I originally thought. I hope there's some decent birds to look at tomorrow morning. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 19:48:46 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? Message-ID: <006401bf2af0$dc1a6c20$85418cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob wrote: >In answer to Neil's original question about why we in the West prefer >dystopianism to optimism, I'm not sure "we" do. I think something's got garbled somewhere along the line, since I never said anything about preference. I merely noted that dystopian visions are popular, which they are, on both sides of the Atlantic. Though in America the darker visions seem to be in comics rather than TV (and possibly more so in the wake of the 'British invasion' in the 80s of writers like Alan Moore). I don't deny that I have a personal preference for dystopia. My favourite TVSF series is B7 (one of the very few TVSF series I actually do like). Favourite films include the Mad Max trilogy, Outland, Bladerunner, and the utterly marvellous Brazil. In comics I prefer Judge Dredd, Strontium Dog, Halo Jones and Nemesis the Warlock to squeaky-clean Superman types. At the same time, I'm not entirely happy with the way dystopia can celebrate the adolescent male preoccupation with (and unhealthy conflation of) sex and death and blood, though that is not of course the entirety of the dystopian vision, only one direction in which it can go. The dystopian trend in SF goes right back to the genre's origins, if we count Frankenstein, though that was more to do with the dangers of Mad Science. Dystopian SF from Metropolis/Brave New World onwards tends to locate the source of its darkness in rulers and administrators rather than scientists and science (cyberpunk continues this hallowed tradition). Someone - forget who - suggested that this might be connected with the scientific community's resentment at not having the power it felt it ought to have had, as reflected in post-Golden Age disillusionment creeping into SF. >Personally, I prefer the B7 dystopia because I believe in paradoxes. I >believe that honest, well-intentioned people can end up hurting innocents, >and that selfish, machiavellian people can look after themselves and >ultimately achieve the greater good. At least B7 gives us a storyline that >gives such things a chance to happen. It's all way, way too clearcut in >Star Trek. I might suggest that one of the distinguishing features of dystopia is that it questions the moral certainties we've been brought up on. When we talk of dystopia we often do so in terms of 'darkness' - a darkness in which we are forced to grope around for our own opinions and solutions. Presumably this is why dystopian futures are either oppressive (the socially sanctioned moral certainties contained within them run counter to our own) or anarchic (the moral terra firma has been removed completely). Does Star Wars count as a dystopia? Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:09:11 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Why Dystopia? Message-ID: <19991109.221016.3326.0.Rilliara@juno.com> On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 19:48:46 -0000 "Neil Faulkner" writes: >Rob wrote: >>In answer to Neil's original question about why we in the West prefer >>dystopianism to optimism, I'm not sure "we" do. > >I think something's got garbled somewhere along the line, since I >never said >anything about preference. I merely noted that dystopian visions are >popular, which they are, on both sides of the Atlantic. >I don't deny that I have a personal preference for dystopia. My >favourite >TVSF series is B7 (one of the very few TVSF series I actually do >like). >Favourite films include the Mad Max trilogy, Outland, Bladerunner, and >the >utterly marvellous Brazil. In comics I prefer Judge Dredd, Strontium >Dog, >Halo Jones and Nemesis the Warlock to squeaky-clean Superman types. > >At the same time, I'm not entirely happy with the way dystopia can >celebrate >the adolescent male preoccupation with (and unhealthy conflation of) >sex and >death and blood, though that is not of course the entirety of the >dystopian >vision, only one direction in which it can go. > >The dystopian trend in SF goes right back to the genre's origins, if >we >count Frankenstein, though that was more to do with the dangers of Mad >Science. Dystopian SF from Metropolis/Brave New World onwards tends >to >locate the source of its darkness in rulers and administrators rather >than >scientists and science (cyberpunk continues this hallowed tradition). >Someone - forget who - suggested that this might be connected with the >scientific community's resentment at not having the power it felt it >ought >to have had, as reflected in post-Golden Age disillusionment creeping >into >SF. > >>Personally, I prefer the B7 dystopia because I believe in paradoxes. >I >>believe that honest, well-intentioned people can end up hurting >innocents, >>and that selfish, machiavellian people can look after themselves and >>ultimately achieve the greater good. At least B7 gives us a >storyline that >>gives such things a chance to happen. It's all way, way too clearcut >in >>Star Trek. > >ears> I >might suggest that one of the distinguishing features of dystopia is >that it >questions the moral certainties we've been brought up on. When we >talk of >dystopia we often do so in terms of 'darkness' - a darkness in which >we are >forced to grope around for our own opinions and solutions. Presumably >this >is why dystopian futures are either oppressive (the socially >sanctioned >moral certainties contained within them run counter to our own) or >anarchic >(the moral terra firma has been removed completely). > >Does Star Wars count as a dystopia? New Hope generally doesn't. Empire definitly would. I'm trying to think why I like B7. I generally count as tired of dystopias. On the other hand, my main gripe with Star Trek (mostly in its TNG incarnation) is that it presents a utopia completely lacking in any substantive foundation to create it. We _never_ get a convincing picture of the culture that created the stability and near lawlessness and self-lessness we're told exists there, though we get plenty of evidence to the contrary. Don't even get me started on Voyager. So, why do I like it? I think it's the stories about people going through unimaginable difficulties and finding ways to cope. I suppose I accept the idea that cynicism is a kind of moral laziness (yeah, I know, "them's fighting words" on this list). At least, cynicism that prompts inaction is. It's the attempt to give doing nothing the aura of moral or intellectual superiority. Since I frequently have lengthy arguments with my own cynical streak (really, Hufflepuff or not, I do have one!), seeing Avon's struggles with his own attitude problem is something I can relate to. Now, I just need to figure out why I like all those other dark stories. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #315 **************************************