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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 254
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
[B7L] "The Pattern of Infinity"
Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
Re: [B7L] "The Pattern of Infinity"
Re: [B7L] "The Pattern of Infinity"
Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
[B7L] Bernard Archard
Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:55:18 -0700
From: Catharine Roussel <croussel@telusplanet.net>
To: Lysator B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
Message-ID: <37C2DC84.114C@telusplanet.net>
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Hellen Paskaleva wrote:
>
> But, finally, he *did not* destroyed the Star One. Even more – he ordered to
> the crew to discharge the bombs. He *do* realized that humanity needs that
> command centre. Therefore - it would be a pure mindlessness for Blake to
> blame himself for disaster, which he had been *against*. This is on the one
> hand.
> And on the other – let’s imagine that driving your car carelessly, you had
> been just about to kill … a kid, for example, in the road accident. Or even
> a whole class, both with the teacher. But you didn’t. You had turned the
> wheel in the last second and the kids survived (to be killed next by a
> truck, but this is another story…).
This is where our opinions differ. Blake was not against the
disaster.He spent the better part of at least a year planning for the
destruction of Star One, even knowing the consequences of his actions.
He intended to gamble that in destroying the lives of thousands, the
lives of millions would be made better. He was not just being careless,
as your driving analogy suggests. Instead, to take your analogy to the
ridiculous extreme, Blake is like the ambulance driver that runs full
speed through school crossings, knowing that some children might die,
but believing that the death of those children is somehow not as
important as the hypothetical life he will save at the other end. It
was a very deliberate descision.
CALLY: Are we fanatics?
BLAKE: Does it matter?
CALLY: Many, many people will die without Star One.
BLAKE: I know.
CALLY: Are you sure that what we're going to do is justified?
BLAKE: It has to be. Don't you see, Cally? If we stop now
then all we have done is senseless killing and
destruction. Without purpose, without reason. We have
to win. It's the only way I can be sure that I was
right.
He did decided that with the Andromedan fleet knocking at the door, Star
One should remain functional but if the Andromedans had not shown up, he
would have destroyed the station himself. He knows this and I credit Roj
Blake with far more moral conscience than to allow himself to solely
blame the Andromedans for the aftermath of Star One's destruction simply
because they were the ones to pull the trigger. That would be far too
easy, especially after having taken the decision to do the exact same
thing, and presumably the responsibility to live with the consequences
of that decision. At the very least it would cause him to question his
ability to lead the rebellion.
Blake had believed that the only way to defeat the Federation was to
eliminate Star One. He was wrong. The Federation continued without
Star One. The Andromedans eliminated 80% of the Federation fleet and
the Federation continued. The masses did not rise up and seize control
in the confusion as he must have expected. The result was simply more
"senseless killing and destruction".
> All I want to say is that Blake is not a kind of
> person, who would blame himself superfluously at the face of the common
> threat.
In Blake's mind, I don't believe that he would have considered blame to
be superfluous. Once he had accepted the responsibility of the aftermath
of Star One's planned destruction it would be very difficult for him to
shed that responsibility.
I do believe that Avon would have been able to rationalize their actions
at Star One in much the way that you have described. He might have even
been able to help Blake get over it faster had their paths crossed
earlier. For Blake however, too much of his own ego was invested in this
decision for him to brush it away very easily once he realized how badly
he had underestimated the problem and oversimplified the solution.
Catharine
--
Catharine Roussel croussel@telusplanet.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 14:30:56 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
Message-ID: <34be8fc1.24f43ee0@aol.com>
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Catharine wrote:
An excellent post defining Blake's role in Star One. I won't repeat it all
here, but I agree with it in its entirety.
> In Blake's mind, I don't believe that he would have considered blame to
> be superfluous. Once he had accepted the responsibility of the aftermath
> of Star One's planned destruction it would be very difficult for him to
> shed that responsibility.
<snip>
> For Blake however, too much of his own ego was invested in this
> decision for him to brush it away very easily once he realized how badly
> he had underestimated the problem and oversimplified the solution.
I agree. I think Blake was an intelligent man and a man of conscience. He
would have realized that his Star One plan was ill conceived. He would have
realized that he would have wrought all that destruction for nothing.
I really like your theory, Catharine, suggesting that Blake's guilt might
have prevented him from contacting Liberator. I can also believe he wanted
to keep his part of the bargain in regard to turning the ship over to Avon.
I also agree with Harriet's:
> I can. Avon's freedom speech is such an emotional gob-smacker, and Blake's
> reply - "I never realised. You really do hate me, don't you?" - packs
> almost as much punch in its quiet matter-of-factness.
I never had the least doubt that both men were quite sincere during that
exchange.
I also liked Harriet's theory that Blake might have reconsidered his response
in weeks to come. Blake's reaction was emotional; he was stabbing back
because he was hurt. But that wouldn't have been enough reason for him to
contact Liberator. Even if Avon didn't hate him, it was pretty clear that
Avon didn't want to be on the same ship as him. You can care about someone
and not be able to live with him/her. That's the point Avon had reached by
Star One. I've no doubt he cared deeply for Blake, but I've also no doubt
that he needed to be free of him.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 15:41:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sondra Sweigman <sweigman@world.std.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] "The Pattern of Infinity"
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.990824153637.2386A-100000@world.std.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
At one point it was possible to find J.Kel's B7 serial "The
Pattern of Infinity" at the Blake's 7 Story Archive:
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/4667/archive.html
But I tried to go there recently (several times), and the page is
no longer there. Does anyone know of any other place on the Web where
this story can be found?
Alternatively, can anyone give me J.Kel's e-mail address?
Thanks.
Sondra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:23:06 PDT
From: "Hellen Paskaleva" <hellen_pas@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
Message-ID: <19990824202310.91194.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Catharine Roussel wrote:
<He did decided that with the Andromedan fleet knocking at the door, Star
One should remain functional but if the Andromedans had not shown up, he
would have destroyed the station himself.>
One possibility is, that he did realized the probable consequences clearly
just at the very end – he changed his decision/mind instants before the
Andromedian’s fleet arrival. But he *did* changed it (I wouldn’t, most
probably, if I was him).
The other version is based on my own experience. It is usual for those, who
sit in power in totalitarian societies, to provide only one source for
supplying citizens with whatever they would need, I mean, one heating plant
for the whole community, one energy source, even one water reservoir. This
is done, because it is easier to control the people, when you are able in
every moment to cease feeding with, for sample, electrical power. So did the
Federation, using the Star One for all it’s needs – from archives’ storage
to weather control centre. This is excellent decision, when one wants to
keep people under control (it was common way of action only several years
ago here, in *my* posttotalitarian country) – when the “subjects” begin to
complain or to strike - simply cut the electricity. Or phone connections. Or
whatever. They usually calm down fast. But this is obviously weak decision,
when the source itself fail for some reasons. As it happened with Star One.
As in happened four years ago here, in Sofia. There was a general average
with the water reservoir, which supplied the city (built under direct
instruction from Moscow right after communists set in power). The whole
capital had remained dry for almost six months. Just try to imagine the size
of disaster...
Therefore, it is obviously inconceivable for a reasonable person to presume,
that the rulers of the Federation would be improvident or even malevolent
enough to be ready to sacrifice people from *that* many planets, just in the
sake of their own security. It is very likely, that, if the Andromedians
wasn’t been so close, Blake would spent some time investigating the
potentialities of the station. And, realizing the possible results of
blowing it up, to try and work out some other way of usage (for sample –
first to switch the weather control to autonomic satellites for each planet,
as it happened in “Mission to Destiny” and then to blow what remained). But
time pressed them all.
<Blake had believed that the only way to defeat the Federation was to
eliminate Star One. He was wrong. The Federation continued without Star One.
The Andromedans eliminated 80% of the Federation fleet and the Federation
continued. The masses did not rise up and seize control in the confusion as
he must have expected.>
The masses *never* did. <bitterly> Trust me. After almost ten years of
trying to drag the country from the communist swamp, the majority still
prefers them. The big masses of people are inert/ sluggish. They need to be
*forced* to their future. Otherwise they keep hang on the common evil. Evil,
but common, you know... <bitterly, again>. I would *never* depend on people
to help me in my mission (if I was Blake). But, finally, this is the usual
way for humankind to develop - there are always a *small* amount of bright
people initially, who drag the masses behind themselves.
<I do believe that Avon would have been able to rationalize their actions at
Star One in much the way that you have described.>
Hrrmmmff. I would not rely on that... Not that he would be incapable for,
but... you know... this is *Avon*. ;-)
Hellen, the Bulgarian
BLAKE: No! Not until free men can think and speak. Not until power is back
with the honest man.
AVON: Have you ever met an honest man?
JENNA: [Glances at Blake] Perhaps.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 16:24:14 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] "The Pattern of Infinity"
Message-ID: <415b96cc.24f4596e@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sondra asked:
> But I tried to go there recently (several times), and the page is
> no longer there. Does anyone know of any other place on the Web where
> this story can be found?
The Fanfic Resource Page moved to:
http://www.oddworldz.com/b7fanfiction/index.html
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:35:00 +0100
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] "The Pattern of Infinity"
Message-ID: <Chhw8cA0Hww3EwHO@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <Pine.SGI.3.95.990824153637.2386A-100000@world.std.com>,
Sondra Sweigman <sweigman@world.std.com> writes
> At one point it was possible to find J.Kel's B7 serial "The
>Pattern of Infinity" at the Blake's 7 Story Archive:
>http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/4667/archive.html
Fanfic Resources moved recently after geocities tried to claim copyright
on all content. The archive is now at
http://www.oddworldz.com/b7fanfiction/archive.html
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 1999 03:09:55 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
Message-ID: <19990803.030957.11966.0.Rilliara@juno.com>
On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:55:18 -0700 Catharine Roussel
<croussel@telusplanet.net> writes:
>Blake had believed that the only way to defeat the Federation was to
>eliminate Star One. He was wrong. The Federation continued without
>Star One. The Andromedans eliminated 80% of the Federation fleet and
>the Federation continued. The masses did not rise up and seize
>control
>in the confusion as he must have expected. The result was simply more
>"senseless killing and destruction".
>
Yes, but I've always thought the Andromedan invasion was responsible for
the rebellion's failure. I think support for the rebellion was a mile
wide and an inch deep. Remember, there was almost no one in the
Federation who had ever seen a real democracy. In this way, they were
more like ancient Romans hearing about Athenian democracy than anyone in
a nondemocratic country today.
The Federation was no paradise, but neither was Nazi Germany. Just as
the many events after WW I created an actual desire for a firm,
nondemocratic government among many people, having all of humanity
threatened with extinction--and saved by Servalan's army--gave the
Federation new legitimacy. Blake himself dropped his war in an instant
as soon as he realized the nature of their common enemy (hey, the only
sane thing to do unless your Travis).
Unlike many others, he went back to fighting for freedom as soon as the
war was over. Or so I've assumed. Hey, wait a sec, what if he didn't?
What if Blake didn't contact the others because he wasn't sure if
defeating the Federation really was a good thing anymore? What if he
began to wonder if freedom and some form of democracy would have been
strong enough to defeat the Andromedans?
Maybe it took him two years and getting his eye knocked out to get his
head back on straight.
Ellynne
___________________________________________________________________
Get the Internet just the way you want it.
Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month!
Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 01:00:54 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Bernard Archard
Message-ID: <f2c6d3fd.24f4d286@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
During my most recent viewing of Pyramids of Mars (hadn't seen it in years),
I thought I spotted a B7 performer, on Doctor Who as Marcus Scarman. Does
anyone have any idea whether Bernard Archard ever had a role on Blake's 7?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:10:30 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
Message-ID: <19990825051051.69577.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Catherine wrote:
<Blake had believed that the only way to defeat the Federation was
to eliminate Star One. He was wrong.>
No. He wasn't wrong. It was probably the *only* way (just about everything
else had been tried, including - as Harriet has pointed
out - peaceful change from within - see Voice from the Past). I
assume what you mean is that he thought it was a *sure* way?
Which leads us to...
<The Federation continued without Star One. The Andromedans
eliminated 80% of the Federation fleet and the Federation continued.>
But severely weakened, to the point where they lost control of most
of the Outer Planets and were so severely weakened in the centre -
on Earth - that *months* afterwards, Sula's coup had a good chance
of succeeding. Millions of people *did* get their freedom (which he
never gets any credit for, mutter grumble) and obviously grasped it,
throwing the dictatorship back into a small shell of itself. It was
only the Pylene programme that enabled the Federation to start
expanding again in the 4th season.
Does *anyone* actually think that Blake or Avon thought they
merely had to hit the switch, watch the pretty fireworks and sit
back while the Federation fell apart like a house of cards??? Of
course they didn't.
What you are not allowing for is the aborting of his plans that
resulted from the Andromedans. *Not* the fact that they blew it up
instead of him, but that - by forcing the Liberator to defend the
galaxy, by causing the crew's dispersal *and Blake's loss* - they
screwed up the *second* part.
The plan was that they would destroy Star One, crippling the
Federation, and then Blake would go back to Earth as a intergral
(probably leading) part of what would be *the best chance* the
rebellion would have had to win in centuries. He knew - they *all*
knew - there was still a hell of a lot of fighting to do, and Avon
makes his opinion quite clear in Pressure Point - "you are the only
one they will all follow".
Whether or not Avon was right in that assessment, that Blake was
the only one who could inspire the said fight, is something we
don't know (being My Not-One-for-Baseless-Compliments Hero, I
don't think he'd have said it unless he was sure. Voice from the
Past is back-up for the idea). We certainly do know that there was
no one else who took that place and gave the rebel groups on Earth
their unifying vision and force.
Given the crippling effect of the destruction of Star One and the
fleet (so crippling that even after months of recovery, Sula still
managed a palace coup) I think the chances of a unified rebel push
on Earth at that precise point just might have worked (it's not a
given, it never was, and he always knew that). I also believe that
Blake - with his legend, his vision, his people skills and his
unquestioned gift for inspiring allegiance from others - *might*
have been able to do it. It was certainly worth the effort.
Had Blake *not* been lost - had they gone back to Earth immediately
and been able - at that precise time, when the Federation was at its
weakest - to unite the different rebel groups in the Inner Worlds,
the result might have been different.
I think Avon knew that (he never actually believed that the rebellion
*could* succeed, but he thought that this plan was the best shot it
would ever have), which lent an edge to his search for Blake in the
early 3rd season. *He* believed that Blake's disappearance crippled
this best shot.
This is also why I *don't* think that Blake vanished deliberately
(because of what Avon said or whatever). Even had he believed that
Avon did mean what he said and did hate him, Blake would still have
seen his duty as clear - to go back to Earth and see the thing through
or die trying. And the Liberator was the fastest (and it seems the only)way
back.
<The masses did not rise up and seize control in the confusion as he
must have expected. >
They obviously did on some worlds - on a lot of worlds. On others,
they didn't. All comes down to leadership - to a unifying force on
Earth. Blake might have provided that unifying inspiration.
The destruction of Star One *worked* in itself. It succeeded in what
it was meant to do - weaken the Federation to the point where a
concerted push might have succeeded. Obviously the people that were
in charge of the rebel groups on Earth were not able to provide the
leadership for that push.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 06:04:23 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
Message-ID: <ead0e0f9.24f519a7@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Sally wrote:
> No. He wasn't wrong. It was probably the *only* way just about everything
> else had been tried, including - as Harriet has pointed
> out - peaceful change from within - see Voice from the Past).
Surely it wasn't the only way. Eliminating peaceful change from within still
leaves many options. And if it was the *only* way, it needed to be done
right.
> Millions of people *did* get their freedom
And lost it again. And suffered what chaos in between.
> The plan was that they would destroy Star One, crippling the
> Federation, and then Blake would go back to Earth as a intergral
> (probably leading) part of what would be *the best chance* the
> rebellion would have had to win in centuries.
And therein we see a major flaw in Blake's plan. If he needed to be on Earth
for the rebellion to succeed then he had no business at Star One. Even
without the Andromedan invasion, there was no guarantee that Blake was going
to survive the Star One part of the operation. He even goes down to the
planet.
Someone else should have been in charge of taking Liberator to Star One.
That part of the operation should have been left in someone else's hands.
But Blake hadn't any second-in-command to put in charge. Blake was very
reluctant to delegate responsibility; he wanted total control.
It's the same Blake flaw we see on GP--"I have to test them myself."
> We certainly do know that there was
> no one else who took that place and gave the rebel groups on Earth
> their unifying vision and force.
Another flaw in the plan. If Blake wasn't going to be on Earth, he needed to
be sure the rebel groups were prepared to strike if he didn't get there.
There was never even an indication that he had alerted anyone else to his
plan.
It was like Star One was going to be destroyed, then everyone was on their
own. There was no concerted strike plan in place. Not only had Star One
been destroyed, the Federation was severely depleted by the war. It was far
weaker than anyone expected it to be. Surely if there had been any kind of
halfway decent plan in place to take Earth, it would have succeeded under
those circumstances if it was going to succeed at all.
But Blake either didn't have a strike force in place or he had a severely
inadequate strike force in place.
> I also believe that
> Blake - with his legend, his vision, his people skills and his
> unquestioned gift for inspiring allegiance from others - *might*
> have been able to do it. It was certainly worth the effort.
Was it worth the effort? How many people died for what gain? How many who
survived were worse off?
> The destruction of Star One *worked* in itself. It succeeded in what
> it was meant to do - weaken the Federation to the point where a
> concerted push might have succeeded. Obviously the people that were
> in charge of the rebel groups on Earth were not able to provide the
> leadership for that push.
That's passing the buck. It was Blake's plan. It was his responsibility to
see that adequate forces with adequate leadership were prepared to strike in
the wake of Star One's destruction. If such forces and leadership weren't
available, then he should have postponed the strike against Star One.
We never even saw that he had involved anyone else in his plan. There was no
communication from LIBERATOR -- "We're here at Star One; be prepared to
strike." or "There's been a complication. Andromedans are here. You are
all on your own." There was no mention to his shipmates that any other rebel
forces were in place and waiting, and surely he'd have mentioned that when
they balked. He thought he could do it himself. He put too many eggs in one
basket.
And given that the Federation was able to recover from both the destruction
of Star One and the losses incurred during the Andromedan War, then it is
very unlikely (I'd place the odds at impossible) that Blake's original plan
would have succeeded. Taking out the Andromedan complication that prevented
Blake from getting to Earth, Blake would have been facing the might of the
Federation. A force that could defeat the Andromedan invaders wasn't going
to be defeated by Blake and Liberator.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:24:55 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] RB, call home...
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0825082455-965Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Tue 03 Aug, Ellynne G. wrote:
>
> On Tue, 24 Aug 1999 10:55:18 -0700 Catharine Roussel
> <croussel@telusplanet.net> writes:
>
> >Blake had believed that the only way to defeat the Federation was to
> >eliminate Star One. He was wrong. The Federation continued without
> >Star One. The Andromedans eliminated 80% of the Federation fleet and
> >the Federation continued. The masses did not rise up and seize
> >control
> >in the confusion as he must have expected. The result was simply more
> >"senseless killing and destruction".
The Federation was greatly weakened by te war. I haven't time to check the
details right now, but they lost a large % of the fleet and a lot of territory.
A lot of planets like Helotrix went independent and were reconquered later.
So the masses certainly did seize control where they were able to. There was
even a rising on Earth (recall Shrinker's description of how he changed sides).
The masses simply failed to retain control - probably because of the fact that
they didn't have control of the military.
> >
> Yes, but I've always thought the Andromedan invasion was responsible for
> the rebellion's failure. I think support for the rebellion was a mile
> wide and an inch deep. Remember, there was almost no one in the
> Federation who had ever seen a real democracy. In this way, they were
> more like ancient Romans hearing about Athenian democracy than anyone in
> a nondemocratic country today.
What a wonderful idea! I wish I'd thought of it.
>
> The Federation was no paradise, but neither was Nazi Germany. Just as
> the many events after WW I created an actual desire for a firm,
> nondemocratic government among many people, having all of humanity
> threatened with extinction--and saved by Servalan's army--gave the
> Federation new legitimacy. Blake himself dropped his war in an instant
> as soon as he realized the nature of their common enemy (hey, the only
> sane thing to do unless your Travis).
It blends in very well with my comments above. The rebels failed to gain
control of the military because the military would have been very focused on the
possibility of another external invasion and thus far less open to internal
dissent. They'd been in a major war which would unify them psycholigically and
he rebels would probably be seen as trying to destroy that which the Andromedans
had failed to destroy.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight)
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #254
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