From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #232 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/232 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 232 Today's Topics: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #230 [B7L] Pella et al in Power Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #230 Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long) Re: [B7L] Penny and Arkaroo can't get through Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Part One Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? [B7L] Re: Harriet's Pella essay [B7L] Question from Sheila Paulson [B7L]Question from Sheila Paulson [B7L] Sheila Paulson, try two Re: [B7L]Woman and girl Re: [B7L]Question from Sheila Paulson [B7L] Nexus pix ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:18:14 +0100 From: "O'Malley Price Corps" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #230 Message-ID: <379CECB6.A0D4CA4@cwcom.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit unsubscribe blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se wrote: > Subject: > > blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 230 > > Today's Topics: > Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Part Two > Re: [B7L] Horizon (Was: Greedy is as greedy does?) > Re: [B7L] Return of the Avon/Soolin debate > Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Part Two > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 03:34:42 PDT > From: "Sally Manton" > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > Ellyne wrote after my ‘Blake is not a blackmailer’ diatribe: > > > > and succeeding admirably (at being fair!!) > > cares about him. Avon's problem is he _didn't_ decide to like Blake, > he just likes him. For most people, not a problem, but it is for him. > Being emotionally attached to Avon is something he perceives as > threatening. Worse, Blake is aware of Avon's liking him and, at > times, appeals to Avon's loyalty and decency, traits Avon doesn't like to > admit exists.> > > Fair enough. I think it was the idea that Blake simply asking for > Avon's opinion - as he does Cally's (Duel) or Jenna's (Weapon) - > could be seen as emotional blackmail. *Not* asking for it would be > both stupid and insulting. > > I agree that Avon probably resents the *fact* that he cares about > this infuriating, impossible and intolerably likeable self-elected leader, > though at times I get the feeling he's also reluctantly amused by it > (*that* smile in Duel, his reaction to Vila’s 'I like (Blake)', the end > of Trial...which brings up the point of how *he* feels about the > fact that other people care about *him* - Blake being one of them. > > needs to be pushed on--but he knows when to back off. In > Countdown, he doesn't let Avon's reaction over Del Grant go till > he knows what's going on, realizing he needs to know what kind of > trouble he can expect between them and then trying to curtail that > trouble till the planet's saved. OTOH, although he tries to talk to > Avon about Anna and believes Avon would be better off talking about it, he > lets it go.> > > Very well put. But even here, I think he'd be pushing Avon for > answers even if they uncordially loathed each other, since it impacts > on the mission. The difference is, in that case, he could push till > Doomsday and still wouldn't *get* them... > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon (Was: Greedy is as greedy does?) > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 03:47:43 PDT > From: "Sally Manton" > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > Mistral asks: > was overhearing his conversation with Jenna in the teleport?> > > Personally, no I don't...it was a remarkably silly thing to say (and I > think he realised it later), but I've always put it down to a lapse of > thought and slight fit of bad temper. Comes straight from the > previous scene - Blake has a headache (and has had it for some time) > and is not feeling very reasonable; Avon has backache (and has also > had it for some time) and isn't reasonable at the best of times. > > They're clearly having one of their *really* off days...like they equally > clearly did just *before* the start of Redemption. > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Return of the Avon/Soolin debate > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 05:47:37 PDT > From: "Sally Manton" > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > Aftre Carol wrote: > > > And Joanne answered: > crew (barring, perhaps, Tarrant) could lift Avon to try > > > Yes, they probably could have used Gan occasionally, when they > *wanted* to throw Avon, preferably somewhere dark and deep. > > I don't think Soolin trusted him all that much, true. None of them > did except Blake, and by 4th season, of course, Avon had become > colder...but did Soolin lack the perception to see what Blake did > or *have* the perception to realise that it wasn't going to work like that > again? > > And did Soolin trust *anyone*? She certainly wouldn't have learned > a great deal about the gentler or warmer emotions from *this* lot > (no, not even Vila, as selfish in his own way as Avon). > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay > Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 05:49:04 PDT > From: "Sally Manton" > To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se > > Ellyne wrote: > from Dorian's attempt to dump all of his personality problems on the > crew and that Avon's misogyny was really *Dorian's* misogyny, didn't > occur to me till later.> > > Not bad, Ellyne...I'll buy this. Especially if you add in my excusing > him on the grounds that he's still in a state of severe emotional shock (how > long *is* it from Rumours through to Rescue?) after > rapidly losing or *re*-losing three of the four most important people in his > life (IMHO - and that we know about). His mind's on > autopilot, everything except survival instincts shut down, and he doesn't > know it, because he doesn't admit to the depth of the > shock anyway. > > So, add in your Dorian dump (made easier by the trauma Avon's > been through)...remember that Pella *is* an enemy, and Avon > always did fight dirty with anyone he saw as a threat...settle the > rose-coloured glasses more firmly on the nose...and don't watch > the episode too often (of course, one could argue that *once* is too often). > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:14:56 -0700 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] Pella et al in Power Message-ID: <379CEBF0.9809CFC5@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Ellynne G." wrote: > After seeing this episode, I had to find some excuse for what happened or > lose all sympathy for Avon and start rooting for Servalan to beat him. <...ENORMOUS, GARGANTUAN, GALAXY-SPANNING SNIP...> > Whew. Ok, I admit the textual basis for the above is a tad weak, but > consider the alternative: taking Power at face value. > wow. Ellynne, it took me a week to read this post, but it was worth it. I will never see Power the same way again. (Unlike most, I don't find it demeaning to anyone; it is so funny to everyone) You ought to be writing mystery novels full of characters cleverly covering up their true agendas. You are a master of the Red Herring. Pat ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1999 16:21:49 -0700 From: Pat Patera To: "O'Malley Price Corps" , B7 Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V99 #230 Message-ID: <379CED8D.D354FF19@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Who the Friggin &%$#@!!! Hell are you, O'Malley Price, and why are you sending *ME* the digest??? Perturbed Pat O'Malley Price Corps wrote: > > unsubscribe > > blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se wrote: > > > Subject: > > > > blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 230 > > > > Today's Topics: > > Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Part Two > > Re: [B7L] Horizon (Was: Greedy is as greedy does?) > > Re: [B7L] Return of the Avon/Soolin debate > > Re: [B7L] Harriet's Pella essay > > > > DELETED A TON OF POSTS I ALREADY GOT AS SEPARATES ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 01:03:50 EDT From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Message-ID: <112435f1.24ce97b6@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/25/99 6:16:29 PM Central Daylight Time, mistral@ptinet.net writes: << But when Gail says 'I felt...does anyone agree?', the appropriate answer seems to me to be 'yes' or 'no' or 'give examples', not 'you Blake-basher, you'. >> Sorry to be so long in replying. I've had a busy weekend and gotten behind on the lyst AGAIN! I was amazed that my remark about Blake got the reaction it did. I was doing a rather INF-thing, giving you my rather vague, overall feelings about Blake based on general impressions of the series as a whole rather than specific facts. Considering this is a mainly INT-list, it was bound to be misunderstood. Sally, I promise no Blake-bashing was intended. I merely wondered if anyone else had the same problem with him and if they could supply the details that I could not. Your reaction reinforces my *feelings* (sorry, but remember, I am an INF!) that I am too hard on him. No offense was intended. Also, thanks, Mistral for trying to understand my admittedly fuzzy thinking here. Gail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:21:07 PDT From: "Rob Clother" To: mistral@ptinet.net, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Message-ID: <19990727072107.98572.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Mistral the Heretic: >I've no interest at all in discussing whether Blake was manipulative >or not; that seems to me to depend on your definition of >manipulation, >about which it's unlikely to reach consensus; however, saying you perceive >a character to have a certain flaw does not IMHO constitute bashing. In my >book it's far preferable to disagree with someone's opinions than it is to >resort to name-calling and personal >attacks. Not in mine, it's not. Death to all the Blake-bashers, I say!!! Remember, Sue Clerc has your number... Revenge will be swift and devastating. Hahahahahaha. (And so on and so forth.) -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 1999 11:27:46 +0200 From: Calle Dybedahl To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Claudia Mastroianni writes: > ftp://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/blake7/scripts/24.Gambit Does anyone want to help me convert all these to HTML? -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se "My Body Is A Temple...To Bacchus" -- Penny Dreadful ------------------------------ Date: 27 Jul 1999 12:23:55 +0200 From: Calle Dybedahl To: woollard@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Penny and Arkaroo can't get through Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Arkaroo writes: > I certainly hope this gets through to the list, though I doubt it will. > We're unable to post, you see. Tragic. That's because you keep switching mail addresses more often than most people change shirts. It suddenly occurs to me that newcomers might not know this: This list has a simple spamfilter installed. The way it works is that only subscribers are allowed to post. If you want to be able to post from a different address than the one you're subscribed at, I have to put the second address in a special list of permitted "extra" addresses. -- Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se It is by Perl alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the regex of Larry that the code acquires flexibility, the flexibility enables obscurity, the obscurity generates a warning. It is by Perl alone I set my mind in motion. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 03:54:08 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Part One Message-ID: <379D8FCF.4119181B@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sally Manton wrote: > As I said, Blake never asked for, not did anything deliberately, to > get Avon's emotional commitment. He asked for practical help, the > use of Avon’s skills and strengths in his cause, and possibly enough > trust to feel he wouldn’t get stabbed in the back for no good reason. > The depth of the commitment he got was a unexpected and veeerrry > reluctantly-given gift. What was he supposed to do, throw it back in Avon's > face? > > Yes, he used Avon's loyalty when he had to, but not to push > caring or emotion on Avon (he ain't that dumb). Hmm. Okay, well then, we must have different definitions of manipulative then. I understand the word to mean tricking or maneuvering another person into doing something they wouldn't ordinarily choose to do; I don't see how that requires *any* kind of emotional commitment. Saying that Blake didn't ask Avon for any personal loyalty doesn't, IMHO, in any way qualify as a defense against charges of manipulation. Unless I'm somehow missing what you're saying. [Note: I'm still not committing to saying Blake's manipulative; just that I don't find your statement a valid refutation of that idea.] > control issues for over a week, and nobody accused us of Avon-bashing.> > > True, and if Gail hadn't *said* she had no proof , I'd have > left the word out (would still probably have argued the point though). > Maybe I came across a bit tetchy (if so, Gail, I apologise) but > for me, it's bashing where blanket statements are made where > there's no proof in the series. Well, I guess I think there's a difference between her saying she couldn't remember at the moment the specific incidents that made her feel that way, and saying there *is* no proof. After all, not everybody on the lyst is as analytical or comfortable with debating as some of us are. Bashing, like manipulativeness, would seem to me to require a pattern ;-) > > > But in that case, *every move* Blake makes is damned as > manipulative. What's the poor man to do? Stop breathing? Errr... > no, dying on Avon would probably count as well. (Now this is > discussion, not bashing...you took my example and gave your own > view.) You don't have to either push *or* pull, at least not with emotions. Logic, philosophy, those would be reasonable ways to sway Avon's position. Beating the poor guy over the head with his own feelings is *not nice*. That's what Servalan did to him in Terminal, IMHO the worst thing she ever did to him. No, this isn't bashing; but then again, we all know *I* like a good debate. > him on it. They'd known each other several months then.> > > No, we know Avon called it manipulation...given that the verbal > games and sparring started two minutes after *meeting* each other, > and has probably been going on for the several months (and we > missed it all (sob) where’s Avon-cam when I want it) I'm not sure > even *Avon* believed this one, but it's just what he'd say. Well, I don't actually see that first exchange as any kind of sparring, and as for the later exchange, I rather get the impression that Avon had been keeping to himself and Blake had been checking him out, mostly from a distance, to try and figure out whether and how he could get Avon's help in the escape. Otherwise, after four months, most of that second exchange would be unnecessary (no fair shouting exposition!) As for what I think's going on in that conversation, manipulation-wise, I've put that in the post back to Jennifer, so I'll not repeat it here :-) Grins, Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 02:50:51 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Greedy is as greedy does? Message-ID: <379D80FA.4568029@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jennifer Beavan wrote: > But when Gail says 'I felt...does > > anyone agree?', the appropriate answer seems to me to be > > 'yes' or 'no' or 'give examples', not 'you Blake-basher, you'. > > Not that I said anything of the kind! I'm so very sorry, Jennifer, I didn't mean to imply that you did; I meant to be speaking generally. > But throwing a switch 'on' or 'off' is still throwing > > a switch--manipulating it. The alternative is to leave it alone. > > A choice which is in itself an action You're right :) But there's another alternative to flipping the emotion switch; use logic. A better choice with Avon, IMHO, who's not that comfortable with emotion and might *feel* manipulated even when someone else might not. > > Since Spacefall is the *first* possible example we see of it, there's > > no indication that at this point Avon *kept* doing what Blake wanted; > > I thought Spacefall established the pattern very clearly - Avon argues and > does what Blake wants! Mmm. I guess I disagree, because I don't think one instance makes a pattern, because I don't think Avon is attached to Blake yet, and because I think the exchange in Spacefall is more complicated than that. To me, it's rather like the opening moves in a chess match, where the opponents are deciding which game they'll play: * BLAKE: If you had access to the computer, could you open the doors? * AVON: Of course. Why? * BLAKE: Just wondered how good you really were. [Blake's opening gambit. *Yes*, he's trying to manipulate Avon by appealing to his ego, but *No*, he doesn't expect it to work; he's going through the forms, like offering a pawn.] * AVON: Don't try and manipulate me, Blake. [Gambit declined] * BLAKE: Now why should I try and do that? * AVON: You need my help. [Avon's counter-offer: admit you need my help.] * BLAKE: Only if you can open the doors. * AVON: I could open every door, blind all the scanners, knock out the * security overrides, and control the computer. Control the * computer and you control the ship. * BLAKE: Then I do need your help. [Blake accepts Avon's choice of games; maybe for the last time? The rest of the exchange is development; but the game has been chosen; it's called Why Should I Help You? and the rest of Blake's moves are based on logic, not emotion.] At the end of this exchange, Avon's not doing what Blake wants against his will; Avon's doing what's best for Avon. Blake's convinced him on logic, not loyalty, this time anyway. Grins, Mistral -- "It seems that I'm some kind of a galactic yo-yo." --the third Doctor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:08:43 -0400 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Harriet's Pella essay Message-ID: <199907270709_MC2-7E6E-AA74@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sally wrote: >and don't watch the episode too often (of course, > one could argue that *once* is too often). Weaklings! I had to make myself sit through the whole ghastly business, rewinding to get the precise wording of key incidents, to write the damn essay in the first place! Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 07:23:24 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Question from Sheila Paulson Message-ID: <1aca73ea.24cef0ac@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sheila Paulson had this question to ask B7 fans: <> Sheila isn't on the list, so please send any replies to: Venkie@aol.com Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:55:38 +0100 From: "Julie Horner" To: "Lysator" Subject: [B7L]Question from Sheila Paulson Message-ID: <015c01bed82f$53a66970$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Sheila Paulson had this question to ask B7 fans: ><> >Sheila isn't on the list, so please send any replies to: Venkie@aol.com I think a bit more context would be useful. Julie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 09:24:45 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Sheila Paulson, try two Message-ID: <685eaab6.24cf0d1d@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julie wrote: > I think a bit more context would be useful. Well, it was sent out with Sheila's text included. I don't know why the text was eaten, but it possibly has something to do with AOL's current hissy fit. It's been bubbling like an overloaded Core this morning. Here's the text again. "I am the author of two RGB stories that were published a long time ago in separate zines: Game of Humanity, which was in Probability Square, and The Dreamers, its sequel, which was in Blake's Doubles 4. I recently managed to get a computer file of the former story, which I had not had before, since it was written before I had one. It made me wonder whether there was anyone out there who might be interested in the two of them published together as a one-shot. I know that a lot of fans might already have them and would not be interested, but on the off change that anyone might be, could you e-mail me directly and let me know." Again, Sheila's e-address is Venkie@aol.com Carol Mc " ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 13:49:13 +0100 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L]Woman and girl Message-ID: <05a201bed835$57705b00$c9448cd4@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- Alison wrote: >>Except it's not grammar, it's whatever the word is for how words are used. >>(Philology? No. Lexicography? Etymology? Damn, damn, what -is- the >word? >>I ought to know this...) >> >>Neil > > >Semantics? Not nearly enough syllables, but I guess it'll have to do. Neil ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 14:54:11 +0100 From: "Una McCormack" To: "Lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L]Question from Sheila Paulson Message-ID: <008a01bed837$f02f5fb0$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julie wrote: > >Sheila Paulson had this question to ask B7 fans: > > ><> > > >Sheila isn't on the list, so please send any replies to: Venkie@aol.com > > I think a bit more context would be useful. LOL! It wasn't just me. I assumed it was just some bizarre telepathy going on among list members! Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jul 1999 21:36:14 +0100 From: Steve Rogerson To: David McIntee , Debra Collard , Steve Hannington , Richard Norman , Space City , Harriet Monkhouse , Redemption , Rebecca Duty , Paula Robinson , maxine perella , Lysator , Louise Badsey , Lesley Voronov Subject: [B7L] Nexus pix Message-ID: <379E183D.2535E25@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi folks, pix from the reecent Nexus 99 con in Bristol are now up on my web page -- cheers Steve Rogerson http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson "What is it with you and holes?" Xena to Gabrielle, Paradise Found -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #232 **************************************