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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 217
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Soolin and Avon? Mmmm...
Re: [B7L] Tyce (was: Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Tyce (was: Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Tyce (was: Servalan)
Re[B7L] website
[B7L] Inga & Veron (was Tyce)
Re: [B7L] Tyce (was: Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Inga & Veron (was Tyce)
Re: Lyst wars (Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan))
Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Re: [B7L] Re: Warm and fuzzy (was Soolin)
[B7L] is there an echo in here?
Re: Re[B7L] website
Re: Lyst wars (Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan))
[B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
[B7L] Re: Lyst wars
Re: Lyst wars (Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan))
Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Re: Re[B7L] website
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:08:50 PDT
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Soolin and Avon? Mmmm...
Message-ID: <19990712180851.2508.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Mistral, Re Avon & Soolin:
>I could easily see them developing an 'us against the universe'
>mentality -- which still wouldn't preclude them scrapping with
>each other occasionally. <g> It would be fun for both of them!!!
This is an oft-repeated theme on the list; yet watching the Fourth Season, I
always thought that Soolin had a dim view of Avon. She tolerated him when
they had to work together; she ignored him or threatened him at other times.
The only canonical evidence I can recall off the top of my head is Soolin's
fury at the end of "Gold", and her warning to Avon in "Blake" (You know --
"I really could get quite annoyed if...", meaning, "You're dead meat
if...").
In general, though, Soolin had the ability to look into people's hearts.
She had a level of sensitivity matched only by Blake (Look at her
interactions with Nebrox in "Assassin"), and I always felt that she was
repelled by Avon's insensitivity. In her eyes, it was a sign of weakness,
or merely laziness.
Someone as complicated as Soolin would need to be with someone who
understood her perfectly. Avon simply lacked the subtlety and
sophistication to do so.
-- Rob
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Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:21:54 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tyce (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <8c534e5a.24bb8c42@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-12 06:56:36 EDT, Angria@t-online.de writes:
<< Last but not least, her short flirt with Blake caused the one and only
time where we see both Jenna and Cally (whose sense of humour has been
questioned recently) teasing Blake on screen. I wish they had done that more
often. >>
I did enjoy that scene. The only way Cally and Jenna could ever be more than
civil toward each other was a team-up against Blake.
As for Cally's sense of humor, I think she's a very serious woman who would
only laugh or smile at something if she's actually amused. Her life (being
exiled, her comrades on Saurian Major dying, Auron dying), isn't a barrel of
laughs, no wonder she only cracks a smile when something truly amuses her.
She does seem to lighten up a little by season 2 or 3.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:22:44 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tyce (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <2745345c.24bb8c74@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-12 07:21:52 EDT, mistral@ptinet.net writes:
<< For me, I think it's Governor LeGrand. >>
Is LeGrand the woman with the horrid eye-makeup, dumb enough to think she
could actually fool Servalan in Voice from the Past?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 14:27:23 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tyce (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <adc2aadc.24bb8d8b@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-12 13:43:29 EDT, msdelta@magnolia.net writes:
<< Actually, I thought Inga just needed a new wardrobe. Here we're told Exbar
is a pretty chilly planet, and they have her running around in one of
Leela's rejected leather leotards. One of the reasons she was fairly feisty
with the crimos is probably that she was just trying to keep warm. >>
I always thought she was very dim. Was she the one who worked with the
Federation if they promised to spare her father, or is that only Kasabi's
daughter in Pressure Point? Couldn't stand her either.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 19:19:55 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re[B7L] website
Message-ID: <000301becc95$21589740$801eac3e@default>
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I now have a -little- bit of Blake-related stuff up on my web site, but it's
only fair to warn you that it's on a par with the kind of stuff I used to
use to fill up AltaZine. Ex-AZ subbers should have a fair idea what -that-
means.
http://homepages.tesco.net/~N.Faulkner/blakes7/index.htm
(unless I've spelt something wrong)
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:44:25 +0200
From: Angria@t-online.de (Tanja Kinkel)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Inga & Veron (was Tyce)
Message-Id: <m113l3x-0003jAC@fwd02.btx.dtag.de>
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AdamWho@aol.com schrieb:
> In a message dated 99-07-12 13:43:29 EDT, msdelta@magnolia.net writes:
>
> << Actually, I thought Inga just needed a new wardrobe. Here we're told Exbar
> is a pretty chilly planet, and they have her running around in one of
> Leela's rejected leather leotards. One of the reasons she was fairly feisty
> with the crimos is probably that she was just trying to keep warm. >>
>
> I always thought she was very dim. Was she the one who worked with the
> Federation if they promised to spare her father, or is that only Kasabi's
> daughter in Pressure Point? Couldn't stand her either.
Au contraire, Inga's dear old dad, Ushton, was the one who promised to work with
the federation if they spared his daughter. Not that I want to defend Inga -
didn't care much for her, either - but thankfully, this series gave us men who
could be blackmailed by empty promises as well. I can't see much difference
between Ushton trading Blake for Inga, and Veron (i.e. Kasabi's daughter)
trading Blake and Company for her mother. Both were understandably desperate,
but stupid to believe that their bargain with Travis (and in Veron's case,
Servalan) would amount to anything. Both tried to make up for their error
afterwards. Only Veron was sixteen, and Ushton looked like he was at least 60.
Tanja
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:52:41 +0200
From: Angria@t-online.de (Tanja Kinkel)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tyce (was: Servalan)
Message-Id: <m113lBx-0006DoC@fwd00.btx.dtag.de>
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AdamWho@aol.com schrieb:
> In a message dated 99-07-12 07:21:52 EDT, mistral@ptinet.net writes:
>
> << For me, I think it's Governor LeGrand. >>
>
> Is LeGrand the woman with the horrid eye-makeup, dumb enough to think she
> could actually fool Servalan in Voice from the Past?
Yes, that was her. Now Kasabi as Servalan's enemy was terrific, but LeGrand only
had to appear and one cheered for Servalan to get rid of her as soon as
possible.
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:02:35 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Inga & Veron (was Tyce)
Message-ID: <4df82a3f.24bb95cb@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 99-07-12 14:45:43 EDT, Angria@t-online.de writes:
<< Au contraire, Inga's dear old dad, Ushton, was the one who promised to
work with
the federation if they spared his daughter. >>
I knew one member of that family made a deal with Travis or the Federation, I
just couldn't remember which.
<<Both were understandably desperate,
but stupid to believe that their bargain with Travis (and in Veron's case,
Servalan) would amount to anything. Both tried to make up for their error
afterwards. Only Veron was sixteen, and Ushton looked like he was at least
60.>>
My dislike for Veron probably comes from the fact that I couldn't believe a
rebel's daughter would be dumb enough to believe Serv. But in desperate
situations, I guess people will believe anything. I did like her toward the
end, when she came back into the Central Control room with Jenna. I haven't
seen PP in a few months, did they ever say what Veron was going to do after
Blake and his crew left? Stay on the planet? Or did she go up to the ship
with them?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:21:51 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: <mistral@ptinet.net>, "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Lyst wars (Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan))
Message-ID: <008301becc9c$4046d160$801eac3e@default>
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Mistral wrote:
+ADw-Yes, I'd say you're getting a false impression. As Una's Q-study
indicated, there are lots of different ways to approach B-7. What's
going on in the characters' heads and how they relate to each
other is one of them, as I'm sure you know.+AD4-
It's pretty hard not to be aware of it. Chacun a son goute and all that,
but I must confess to feeling irked sometimes when a thread on background or
theoretical surmising gets hijacked by the character-centric lobby, who then
turn it into a frame-by-frame account of interactive moments. I'm barely
reading the current spate of Tarrant/Vila posts because I find them utterly
boring. My loss, I guess.
+ADw-It would be rather silly to think that Liberator/Scorpio crew all felt
warm and fuzzy about each other, all of the time. Vila-Tarrant
certainly strikes me as one of the less fuzzy ones. Everybody in the
group, except possibly Jenna, was rude or nasty to Vila at some
point. Tarrant is the only one where I see any evidence of it being
something that affected the relationship negatively in the long term.
That's not taking it personally, that's character analysis.+AD4-
A paragraph that neatly illustrates my point of threads moving from the
theoretical to the specific. What I was actually trying to suggest was that
the frictions between the characters are the focus of over-attention,
because (a) such frictions are all part and parcel of normal everyday
interaction between people, and (b) I don't think - though here I admit that
I may well be wrong - that they are half as significant as all these
in-depth character analyses seem to suggest. Isolated moments are next to
meaningless as sources of information for how two people relate to each
other. Nor do I think the motives ascribed to one character or another are
necessarily as clear-cut as is often suggested, especially when the
character is acting in a moment of crisis. So to say 'Tarrant/Avon/Soolin
did or said such-and-such in order to....' is suggesting a level of
premeditation to the characters' actions/words that did not really exist (or
wouldn't have really existed if it wasn't all made up by the script-writers
anyway).
My comment with regard to a shortfall of appreciation of sarcasm and irony
was mainly aimed at those people who appear - at least IMO - to attach undue
significance to the petty arguments and bickerings between the characters
(especially Avon and Blake). 'Warm and fuzzy' is the exception rather than
the norm, yet much of the character analysis tacitly assumes it as an
ambient state of affairs, any deviation from which deserves in-depth
scrutiny.
+ADw-If you want to trash my opinions, Neil, feel free,+AD4-
Ah, well, since you ask...
+ADw-and I'll probably enjoy it.+AD4-
And ruin my fun? Ooh, you rotten swine, you.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:33:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Claudia Mastroianni <cmastr@fas.harvard.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, msdelta@magnolia.net
Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Message-Id: <199907121933.PAA09646@login3.fas.harvard.edu>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 15:50:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Claudia Mastroianni <cmastr@fas.harvard.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Message-Id: <199907121950.PAA02044@login3.fas.harvard.edu>
Hello, folks. I've been lurking for ages because life's been busy, but
I seem to have time to return to my beloved Blake's 7.
Carol Mc wrote:
: Lorna (sometimes quoting TigerM) wrote:
: > But I look on City as
: > occurring in a shakedown period of Tarrant's trying to get used to the
: > Liberator crew dynamics. I agree he bullied Vila, although I think he did
: > it for a good reason.
: The interesting point is that Tarrant's bullying wasn't getting him anywhere
: until he told Vila that the others wouldn't stop him if he decided to throw
: Vila off the ship. That's when Vila stopped arguing. It wasn't so much
: Tarrant's threat as a belief that
: Avon and Cally would back Tarrant. Now why would Vila believe that Cally and
: Avon would allow Tarrant to throw him off the ship? He must think neither of
: them cares very much about him. He must think that neither of them would
: protect him from Tarrant. Vila is on his own.
This is very interesting to me. I don't think Vila really believes Tarrant.
I read it as, he has a nagging fear that Tarrant might be right, and if
that's true, he very much does *not* want to find out for sure. Worse than
risking his life would be finding out the others (perhaps particularly
Avon? that's my bias at least) really would agree to throwing him off.
But maybe his fear of rejection isn't as great as all that and I'm
projecting. >:)
As to Vila not taking the tracer because he was thinking of jumping ship...
that doesn't ring true to me. It makes a certain logical sense but doesn't
fit with my idea of his personality. I think the last thing he'd do is
leave himself with no option *but* to strike out on his own. However,
if he felt that's what he'd been forced to... again, I can make more sense
of fear of rejection than anything else, at this point.
Claudia
--
"There remained about him, even so, something curiously equivocal--
that slight wariness, that imperceptibly more alert apprehension, that
attentiveness even in repose to the evidence of the senses, which is found
in those who in some alien environment never cease to watch for danger or
advantage: in migrants between countries or classes; in those conscious
of some unorthodox erotic preference; in spies; and in cats always,
however domesticated." -- The Shortest Way to Hades
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 11:20:41 -0700
From: Pat Patera <patpatera@netzero.net>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Warm and fuzzy (was Soolin)
Message-ID: <378A31F9.ABA7F52E@netzero.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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"Ellynne G." wrote:
> I see a story here, one where Avon is going nuts as everyone is acting
> warm and fuzzy. All the time. Either they've all finally had enough of
> him and are trying to drive him insane in the meanest way possible or
> they've been taken over by evil aliens called Care Bears
awwwww how... special.
Bizarro writers, are you listening?
:-D Pat
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:27:45 -0700
From: Pat Patera <patpatera@netzero.net>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] is there an echo in here?
Message-ID: <378A4FC1.7B3EA64F@netzero.net>
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oops. sorry all who got spammed by my various list and personal posts.
bad computer! bad, bad Orac!
egg on my face pat
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:39:36 -0700
From: Pat Patera <patpatera@netzero.net>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re[B7L] website
Message-ID: <378A5288.EAD1CCCA@netzero.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Neil Faulkner wrote:
>
> I now have a -little- bit of Blake-related stuff up on my web site, ...
> http://homepages.tesco.net/~N.Faulkner/blakes7/index.htm
The funny photos alone are worth a visit.
I especially liked the "Avon emotes" gallery at the end :-D
Pat
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 13:42:24 -0700
From: Pat Patera <patpatera@netzero.net>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Lyst wars (Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan))
Message-ID: <378A5330.94A92EA1@netzero.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Neil Faulkner wrote:
> I'm barely
> reading the current spate of Tarrant/Vila posts because I find them utterly
> boring.
>
Guess you Tarrant / Vila fans had best go off and make your own list,
like we Buffy / Blake fans did. We don't want to bore Neil.
Pat
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:53:30 +0100
From: S Riaz <t.riaz@virgin.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <378A63D9.300935B7@virgin.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> Carol Mc wrote: "Now why would Vila believe that Cally and Avon would allow
> Tarrant to throw him off the ship? He must think neither of them cares very much
> about him."
Cally sometimes seemed irritated with Vila, as did Blake - but I don't every recall
Avon being IRRITATED by him. Tarrant and Dayna both seemed infuriated by Vila at
times, and I think Tarrant sometimes resented his position on the ship. Perhaps as
a former Federation pilot he felt you had to 'earn' your position.
"If I were stuck in a closed environment with any of them for longer than 48 hours
I'd be whipping out a chainsaw and engaging in creative body sculpturing."
Beautiful! But whose body, and which part, would you sculpture?! Personally I
would take Gareth Thomas in "Blake" - yum! yum!
As for recycled costumes - don't forget that Avon got Bayban's leather gloves! And
why didn't they replace the studs when they fell off?
On to why nobody seemed in control at the beginning of Season 3. When Tarrant
joined Liberator, I think he thought it would be a case of 'joint discussions' (how
wrong he was!). As for Avon, despite his words before Star One, he certainly
looked into Blake and Jenna's whereabouts and went to collect Cally and Vila without
hesitation. Perhaps he wasn't expecting Blake to be so elusive. Or possibly,
Blake's leadership left a void he felt uncomfortable filling at first - perhaps
because he never really wanted it? He wanted Liberator, but probably alone. With
Cally on board, and Dayna hating Servalan, a hatred of the Federation was certainly
still there. I doubt Vila or Tarrant had much thought on it either way, but Cally
may have expected the fight to 'carry on'.
Tanja wrote: "The actress obviously took her cue from Paul Darrow as Avon, who
certianly is guilty of the charge of sneering, being smug, pouting, etc."
Yes, but he looked scrumptious doing it!!!
By the way, my least favourite guest character was that snivelling little idiot that
supposedly guards Servalan in "Gambit". Even Travis II seemed to consider him a
waste of time. As you may guess, I disliked Travis II intensely - the man couldn't
even act well in "Eastenders"! Good character, shame they couldn't have kept
Stephen Greif - he would have been wonderful in "Trial". Brian Croucher just
seemed to whine his way through the best speech Travis ever had.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:44:46 EDT
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Message-ID: <720bc729.24bbc9de@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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I'm sorry I haven't been able to reply to the other excellent posts in this
thread; I have had a relapse of whatever it was I had a couple of weeks ago.
In a message dated 7/11/99 9:41:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
msdelta@magnolia.net writes:
> Carol M. said:
<snip>
> >It should also be noted that Kool Hand Norl completely bamboozled Bayban
> into
> >thinking he was peaceful and cooperative. Tarrant wasn't the only one
> fooled
> >by Norl's act.
>
> Kool Hand Norl. Heh. I like it. He was a sly old bastard, I'll give him
> that. I loved the look on Norl's and Vila's faces when Vila accidentally
> figured out the whole thing was a scam.
Not to mention Bayban's. I don't think he cared for being taken for a fool
any more than Klegg did.
<snip>
> >Presumably, Avon or Cally could have spoken up against the Keezarn plan
any
> >time before or after the deal with Norl was made. They could have
> suggested
> >they try somewhere else for the crystals. They could have suggested that
> the
> >deal Tarrant negotiated wasn't acceptable. But they don't appear to have
> >done that, because Tarrant wouldn't have pressed the matter if the
majority
> >(Avon-Cally-Vila) disagreed with him. It isn't until Vila has teleported
> to
> >the surface that Avon and Cally start to protest about how Tarrant handled
> >the matter. Too late to do Vila any good.
>
> Which was pretty convenient. It's a lot easier to gripe after the deed is
> done.
Exactly. This seems pretty hypocritical on Avon's part. Avon has never been
hesitant to force Vila into danger, even to risk his life. In Gambit he
forced Vila to play the Klute at speed chess, when Vila was drugged and
couldn't resist. I find it very hard to forgive Avon for this, but I'm
willing to forgive Tarrant's behavior, so I can forgive Avon. Eventually.
He also forces Vila to teleport aboard the asteroid in Sarcophagus when Vila
doesn't want to go. Vila nearly died that time too. Avon's very willing to
have Tarrant do his dirty work for him and then absolve himself of any
responsibilty with his after-the-fact protests, at least on these two
occasions.
> I think that is very telling. I wonder if something else was going on
> between episodes before City occurred. Had Vila done something
> spectacularly stupid (again) and incurred the wrath of the entire crew?
Did
> he believe he was so much on the outs with the lot of them that he really
> thought he could be dumped without a qualm? This is interesting.
Vila did have a habit of incurring his crewmates anger through inattention or
laziness. But we love him for it.;-)
<snip>
> >Vila's behavior on Keezarn supports the theory that he wasn't terrified.
> He faces
> >down Bayban the Butcher with poise and equanimity. A lot of Vila's
> cowardly
> >posing was more to get out of work than genuine terror. Sure, he was
> >afraid--as any sensible person would be--but he wasn't as afraid as he
> would
> >have liked others to believe.
>
> He did so well with Bayban that it quite warmed my little heart. It was
fun
> to see Vila coping on his own for a change, with no one to fall back upon.
This is one of my favorite Vila moments as well.
<snip more goodies>
> >Vila wasn't stupid. I don't think it took him long to decide that the
> >bastards he knew weren't such bad company after all. And a soft bed
inside
> a
> >spaceship was preferable to a mat on the hard ground out in the elements.
> He
> >seemed quite ready to grab on to Tarrant again when the two of them were
> >reunited. No more protests that he didn't want to go along with Tarrant's
> >plans; no recriminations about Tarrant's earlier behavior.
>
> Yes, I noticed that too! Maybe Tarrant bossing him around proved to be
> preferable to Servalan bossing him around. At least Tarrant didn't go
> bashing him over the head with rocks. Though he probably *thought* about
it
> from time to time. ;-)
I suspect he definitely thought Tarrant was preferable to Doran, after he
discovered Doran's opinion of women and his willingness to kill wantonly.
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:44:36 EDT
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Lyst wars
Message-ID: <6a2063a9.24bbc9d4@aol.com>
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In a message dated 7/12/99 12:25:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes:
> It's pretty hard not to be aware of it. Chacun a son goute and all that,
> but I must confess to feeling irked sometimes when a thread on background
or
> theoretical surmising gets hijacked by the character-centric lobby, who
then
> turn it into a frame-by-frame account of interactive moments. I'm barely
> reading the current spate of Tarrant/Vila posts because I find them utterly
> boring. My loss, I guess.
Would you mind explaining what you mean by "hijacked"? Thread mutation is a
fact of life on the net, like flamewars. Another fact of life on the net is
that the flavor-of-the-month isn't always going to be one's own.:-) There
have been many threads I didn't find interesting on this and the other MLs
I'm on. I just ignored them or started new threads that did interest me.
Sometimes people picked them up; sometimes they didn't. Sometimes threads I
didn't find interesting at first turned into something I did like.
As I understand it, this list is open to all B7 topics and points of view.
There's room for a wide variety, and I would find the list far more boring if
everyone like the same things or approached the series in the same way.
> A paragraph that neatly illustrates my point of threads moving from the
> theoretical to the specific. What I was actually trying to suggest was
that
> the frictions between the characters are the focus of over-attention,
> because (a) such frictions are all part and parcel of normal everyday
> interaction between people, and (b) I don't think - though here I admit
that
> I may well be wrong - that they are half as significant as all these
> in-depth character analyses seem to suggest. Isolated moments are next to
> meaningless as sources of information for how two people relate to each
> other. Nor do I think the motives ascribed to one character or another are
> necessarily as clear-cut as is often suggested, especially when the
> character is acting in a moment of crisis. So to say 'Tarrant/Avon/Soolin
> did or said such-and-such in order to....' is suggesting a level of
> premeditation to the characters' actions/words that did not really exist
(or
> wouldn't have really existed if it wasn't all made up by the script-writers
> anyway).
Your opinion is as valid as anyone else's, Neil, but many list members happen
not to agree with you.:-) There is room here for everyone, unless they are a
spammer. No one is forcing you to read the posts. And no one is stopping
you from starting your own threads that you do find interesting. There's no
limit on the number of posts you can make per day, unlike some lists I've
been on.
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 18:45:08 EDT
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Lyst wars (Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan))
Message-ID: <ccb490a.24bbc9f4@aol.com>
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In a message dated 7/12/99 1:51:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
patpatera@netzero.net writes:
> Guess you Tarrant / Vila fans had best go off and make your own list,
> like we Buffy / Blake fans did. We don't want to bore Neil.
Or the people who just can't stand the topic under discussion can
leave.....;-)
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 20:46:52 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <707c8df7.24bbe67c@aol.com>
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Susan R. wrote:
> Cally sometimes seemed irritated with Vila, as did Blake - but I don't
every
> recall
> Avon being IRRITATED by him.
He was pretty angry with Vila in HOSTAGE. He snarls at him and knees or
kicks him. He keeps on yapping at Vila until Blake tells him to leave him
alone.
> Beautiful! But whose body, and which part, would you sculpture?!
There is only one body worthy of sculpture. :)
> On to why nobody seemed in control at the beginning of Season 3. When
> Tarrant
> joined Liberator, I think he thought it would be a case of 'joint
> discussions'
I honestly don't think that's what he expected. Tarrant was used to a chain
of command, and I think he expected an organized rebel group to operate under
those principles. Instead, he ended up in a group where no one seemed to be
making any decisions. He tried to fill that gap by offering plans and taking
initiative. When Avon finally took charge, Tarrant easily slipped into
second in command.
> I doubt Vila or Tarrant had much thought on it either way,
Tarrant and Dayna went to Obsidian looking for a planet to use as a base and
for recruits. They seemed fully prepared to take up the fight against the
Federation. I think it was lack of enthusiasm from the Liberator's original
crew that dampened their energies.
> but Cally
> may have expected the fight to 'carry on'.
She didn't seem to. I'm not sure what was up with Cally at that point.
Maybe Star One had done something to quell her idealistic fervor. Maybe she
decided the price to be paid for victory was too high. She wasn't urging
anyone to take up or continue the rebel cause.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:41:46 EDT
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <47ffcf00.24bbf35a@aol.com>
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In a message dated 7/12/99 2:50:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
t.riaz@virgin.net writes:
Carol wrote:
> "If I were stuck in a closed environment with any of them for longer than
48
> hours I'd be whipping out a chainsaw and engaging in creative body
sculpturing."
>
> Beautiful! But whose body, and which part, would you sculpture?!
> Personally I would take Gareth Thomas in "Blake" - yum! yum!
I'm with Carol on this one. Only one body on B7 is worthy of sculpture.;-)
> As for recycled costumes - don't forget that Avon got Bayban's leather
> gloves! And why didn't they replace the studs when they fell off?
>
> On to why nobody seemed in control at the beginning of Season 3. When
> Tarrant joined Liberator, I think he thought it would be a case of 'joint
> discussions' (how wrong he was!). As for Avon, despite his words before
Star One, he
> certainly looked into Blake and Jenna's whereabouts and went to collect
Cally and Vila
> without hesitation. Perhaps he wasn't expecting Blake to be so elusive.
Or
> possibly, Blake's leadership left a void he felt uncomfortable filling at
first -
> perhaps because he never really wanted it? He wanted Liberator, but
probably alone.
This is my theory. Avon wanted the Liberator, but he didn't want the baggage
that came with it. Unfortunately, he didn't realize this until he already
had the ship and it was too late.
> With Cally on board, and Dayna hating Servalan, a hatred of the
Federation was
> certainly still there. I doubt Vila or Tarrant had much thought on it
either way,
> but Cally may have expected the fight to 'carry on'.
Actually, Tarrant seemed to be the one pushing an active fight vs. the
Federation in the early part of the third season. He and Dayna seemed to be
the ones who were interested in setting up a base on Obsidian, and the
kairopan heist was Tarrant's idea. Many fans think of this as simple piracy,
but it occurred to me that by stealing the entire harvest of a very valuable
commodity, they would be hitting the Federation in the pocketbook, where it
would really hurt. And also confiscating a valuble resource that won't be
available again for years.
> By the way, my least favourite guest character was that snivelling little
> idiot that supposedly guards Servalan in "Gambit".
The Bubble Buddy and the offspring of that illicit liason between the
Creature from the Black Lagoon and a Sontaran hold that position for me. But
then, I consider The Web to be the worst B7 episode ever. The only thing
that redeems it is Blake's presence.
> Even Travis II seemed to consider
> him a waste of time. As you may guess, I disliked Travis II intensely -
the man
> couldn't even act well in "Eastenders"! Good character, shame they
couldn't have
> kept Stephen Greif - he would have been wonderful in "Trial". Brian
Croucher
> just seemed to whine his way through the best speech Travis ever had.
Actually, I prefer the Croucher Travis. He has a manic quality that the
Greif Travis lacked, like a rabid dog growling furiously behind a fence,
leaping vainly to reach the mailman just on the other side.
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:34:03 -0500
From: "Lorna B." <msdelta@magnolia.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-Id: <199907130253.VAA14889@pemberton.magnolia.net>
Carol Mc wrote (re Avon):
>He was pretty angry with Vila in HOSTAGE. He snarls at him and knees or
>kicks him. He keeps on yapping at Vila until Blake tells him to leave him
>alone.
That was a very nasty scene. The only excuse Avon had for that action was
the very bad position the rebels were in. That would make anyone
exceptionally testy. But, jeez, Vila really couldn't help blabbing to
Travis. With a gun to his head, what else could he do?
>There is only one body worthy of sculpture. :)
Vila's, right? ;-)
>Tarrant and Dayna went to Obsidian looking for a planet to use as a base
and
>for recruits. They seemed fully prepared to take up the fight against the
>Federation. I think it was lack of enthusiasm from the Liberator's
original
>crew that dampened their energies.
Tarrant and Dayna did seem exceptionally keen on this rebel business. I
wonder if the others found it kind of annoying? Or if Cally found herself
feeling a little ashamed that she wasn't as keen as she'd once been?
Lorna B.
"Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 21:19:50 -0500
From: "Lorna B." <msdelta@magnolia.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Message-Id: <199907130253.VAA14869@pemberton.magnolia.net>
Carol Mc said (after some snipping):
>They could have used Vila for a trustmeter. "Shall we make a deal
>with the Terra Nostra/Zukan/etc.?" "Not unless they pass the Vila test."
I
>suppose one reason they didn't use Vila in that manner is because he might
>have pronounced anyone untrustworthy if he didn't like the risks that
>accompanied the scheme in question.
Using Vila as the Mikey Life Cereal test, huh? :-) Seriously, though,
there are times when his trustmeter goes haywire. Like initially with
Doran. Or with Pella. Or with the Chengan hunters. Sometimes Vila can be
grossly naive and trusting, most usually when being misled by a pretty face
and a nice pair of legs.
>I've pondered that myself. Did Avon think Blake might return and he didn't
>see the point of assuming leadership if it was going to be snatched back
out
>of his hands? Or was he pretty sure Blake wouldn't return and he was
>reluctant to take on permanent leadership responsibility?
I think Avon had kind of hoped they could forget all about that rebellion
business, but they got sucked back in again. Perhaps due to the new crew's
enthusiasm for action.
>Vila could get disconsolate on occasion. He tossed out those lines in
Sand:
>"If I died it'd be a real joke. Who'd care? Who cared about Cally?"
Poor little thing was sick and maudlin at the time. But I think he was
feeling particularly glum at that moment. And maybe a little guilty about
being unable to rescue Cally.
>I could believe that. It would go along with the mood of a diabetic
toddler
>that you noted. Someone stamping his foot and slyly attempting to get back
>at the "grown-ups." "You can make me do x, but you can't make me do y.
>Nyah, nyah, nyah." All of us have a need to be in control. And that gave
>Vila some degree of control. It wasn't the smartest thing to do, but
biting
>off one's nose to spite one's face is a normal human reaction. :)
And we know Vila didn't always choose the smartest thing on the menu given
him. ;-)
Lorna B.
"Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:07:10 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <c7d1e354.24bc075e@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-12 17:50:36 EDT, t.riaz@virgin.net writes:
<< Cally sometimes seemed irritated with Vila, as did Blake - but I don't
every recall
Avon being IRRITATED by him. >>
Was it Gan or Avon who became irritated when Vila took too long getting
prepared in Project Avalon? I thought it was Avon, and Cally. I think Avon is
irritated by Vila, he also uses him as a convenient target for insults, but
he feels no real hostility toward Vila.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:10:36 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <575bc75.24bc082c@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 99-07-12 17:50:36 EDT, t.riaz@virgin.net writes:
<< By the way, my least favourite guest character was that snivelling little
idiot that
supposedly guards Servalan in "Gambit". Even Travis II seemed to consider
him a
waste of time. As you may guess, I disliked Travis II intensely - the man
couldn't
even act well in "Eastenders"! Good character, shame they couldn't have kept
Stephen Greif - he would have been wonderful in "Trial". Brian Croucher
just
seemed to whine his way through the best speech Travis ever had. >>
You have no idea how lucky you are Penny isn't here, the horrors of
interrogations and big comfy chairs still haunt me. When she gets back, deny
you ever said anything bad about Travis 2, for your own sake.
I hated Travis 2 his first few episodes, but by the last 3\4 of season 2, he
became entertaining as a lunatic. Brian Croucher did a surprisingly good job
in Gambit, the only time he ever captured the human side of Travis. Stephen
Greif will always be the real Travis to me, and the first season was
definitely best for the character, maybe Croucher should have been given
another character.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:18:41 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <834bc3e6.24bc0a11@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-12 20:49:25 EDT, Mac4781@aol.com writes:
<< She didn't seem to. I'm not sure what was up with Cally at that point.
Maybe Star One had done something to quell her idealistic fervor. Maybe she
decided the price to be paid for victory was too high. She wasn't urging
anyone to take up or continue the rebel cause. >>
I think Cally was better at taking orders than making plans of her own. She
did an effecient job whenever Blake or Avon needed her help, probably because
she learned to take orders from the leader of the freedom fighters. But I
don't remember her ever suggesting plans of her own, except Weapon, and she
suggested it to her leader, Blake. Without a true leader in place, and with
the threat of the Federation temporarily diminished, both Cally and Avon
seemed a little more laid back. After the traumas of Star One, Blake leaving,
almost being harvested for organs, etc. Cally probably appreciated the down
time.
When Tarrant did take charge (City at the Edge of the World for one), Cally
seemed to respond.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:20:13 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <ef33358f.24bc0a6d@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-12 21:48:51 EDT, Tigerm1019@aol.com writes:
<< I'm with Carol on this one. Only one body on B7 is worthy of
sculpture.;-) >>
Which one, Jenna or Servalan <g>?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:24:36 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <6d6bd711.24bc0b74@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-12 22:50:06 EDT, msdelta@magnolia.net writes:
<< Tarrant and Dayna did seem exceptionally keen on this rebel business. I
wonder if the others found it kind of annoying? Or if Cally found herself
feeling a little ashamed that she wasn't as keen as she'd once been? >>
I doubt Cally felt ashamed, but annoyed, yes. Cally and Vila had no idea who
Tarrant or Dayna were, Avon met them first. I can imagine getting used to new
dynamics after years of an established leader and crew, and having aggressive
and\or cocky people to live and work with when you barely know their names,
would be very irritating.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:27:22 EDT
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliked characters, etc
Message-ID: <7c386980.24bc0c1a@aol.com>
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In a message dated 7/12/99 8:15:59 PM Pacific Daylight Time, AdamWho@aol.com
writes:
> You have no idea how lucky you are Penny isn't here, the horrors of
> interrogations and big comfy chairs still haunt me. When she gets back,
deny
> you ever said anything bad about Travis 2, for your own sake.
Too late, Adam. You must not be on the spin list. The omniscient High
Priestess Penny is already very much aware of Susan's calumny against Travis
2. Did you honestly think she wouldn't find out? The comfy chair is
waiting....<eg>
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 23:32:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Claudia Mastroianni <cmastr@fas.harvard.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long)
Message-Id: <199907130332.XAA04171@login3.fas.harvard.edu>
Tigerm1019@aol.com wrote:
: In a message dated 7/11/99 9:41:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
: msdelta@magnolia.net writes:
: > Carol M. said:
: > >It isn't until Vila has teleported to
: > >the surface that Avon and Cally start to protest about how Tarrant
: > >handled the matter. Too late to do Vila any good.
: >
: > Which was pretty convenient. It's a lot easier to gripe after the
: > deed is done.
: Exactly. This seems pretty hypocritical on Avon's part. Avon has never been
: hesitant to force Vila into danger, even to risk his life.
I was dubious when I read this....
: In Gambit he
: forced Vila to play the Klute at speed chess, when Vila was drugged and
: couldn't resist. I find it very hard to forgive Avon for this, but I'm
: willing to forgive Tarrant's behavior, so I can forgive Avon.
And a bit indignant here. Avon didn't know anything about the speed chess.
He was quite startled when it was announced that Vila would be playing;
he quite memorably spits up some ice cream or something that he's eating
when the MC makes that announcement. I will grant you some other moments,
but Vila and Avon are a team all through Gambit... in it together for the
money. And quite fun it is to watch.
The script is at
ftp://ftp.lysator.liu.se/pub/blake7/scripts/24.Gambit
if you want to check for yourself.
Once Vila has recovered from the drugging, yes, Avon does tell him to
play (rather than lose the money). But Vila is sober if panicked at
that point, and I think he wants the money every bit as much as Avon does.
: Eventually.
: He also forces Vila to teleport aboard the asteroid in Sarcophagus when Vila
: doesn't want to go. Vila nearly died that time too.
This is simply incorrect. Vila doesn't object at all (BTW, it's a ship,
not an asteroid). And Avon is in every bit as much danger as Vila at
that point, until Cally comes back for both of them. And no suggestion
is made after the fact that they shouldn't have gone.
: Avon's very willing to
: have Tarrant do his dirty work for him and then absolve himself of any
: responsibilty with his after-the-fact protests, at least on these two
: occasions.
So I can't make much sense of this, I'm afraid.
Claudia
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 1999 22:38:51 +0100
From: Julia Jones <julia.jones@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re[B7L] website
Message-ID: <HH0RlRArBmi3Ew1Z@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <000301becc95$21589740$801eac3e@default>, Neil Faulkner
<N.Faulkner@tesco.net> writes
>http://homepages.tesco.net/~N.Faulkner/blakes7/index.htm
<hysterical giggling>
Go on, Neil, admit it, you're a masochist who enjoys being beaten up by
a mob of Avon-crazed women...
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #217
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