From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #214 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/214 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 214 Today's Topics: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long) Re: [B7L] Cally (was Servalan) Re: [B7L] Disliking characters (was Servalan) Re: [B7L] Servalan [B7L] Re: Tarrant and his crewmates Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long) Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long) Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long) Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan) and apology to TigerM Re: [B7L] The estimable Jarriere Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan) Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan) Re: [B7L] Cally (was Servalan) Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan) [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan) [B7L] Avon and Liberator Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:29:18 EDT From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/10/99 12:05:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mistral@ptinet.net writes: > There is, however, plenty of evidence for a reasonable observer > to draw the conclusion that Vila neither liked nor trusted him. > I don't think that's at all a stretch of the imagination; I'd say there's > far stronger evidence that Vila didn't like him than that he did; > Traitor by itself is enough for my mind. Of course Vila wasn't > constantly going on about it; you can't live in an armed camp 24-7. Hmmm, I see considerable evidence for the opposite conclusion, that Vila liked Tarrant and trusted him a great deal. The dynamics between them are subtle and complex , and there's far more to them that an incident here and there. In "Dawn of the Gods," Vila calls for Tarrant to come to his rescue, and Tarrant is the one who goes to retrieve Vila's body for proper burial. Vila wouldn't have called for Tarrant if he didn't trust him to come. They banter together in "Harvest of Kairos," and Tarrant even leaves Vila in charge on the flight deck while he goes to find Cally. Tarrant wouldn't have done that if he didn't think Vila could handle it. When Vila makes his crack about Tarrant being a "know-all," Tarrant just grins. Later he just claps Vila on the shoulder when Vila used a trick he'd been saving for later; if he really despised Vila, he wouldn't have acted this way. I think Tarrant saw Vila's "poor little me" act for what it was. Also, Vila was bone lazy and had to be forced to contribute even a tiny part of his share to the the group. The lives of the Liberator's crew depended on each other, as did their success. If Vila wanted to get the benefits and protection of the group, he had to give something back. On the two occasions when Tarrant bullied Vila, the situation was critical. In "City at the Edge of the World," they had to have those crystals if they wanted to have a functioning weaponry system. Norl had specifically asked for Vila, and Tarrant believed Vila could handle anything that happened down on Keezarn. Tarrant didn't know they were dealing with Bayban. In "Rumours of Death," all the crew, even Cally work together to pull Avon out of the fire, although Vila's inattention at the teleport console and drinking on duty nearly get Avon toasted. In "Moloch," Vila is sleeping in Tarrant's chair. Tarrant isn't any rougher with vila on board the Liberator than Gan was with him when he blaked at going down to Centero in"Seek-Locate-Destroy." When Tarrant pulled the gun on him, Vila had mutinied in the middle of a mission. That was stupid. I find it interesting that Vila wasn't frightened, only hurt and disappointed. And he was happy enough to go along with Tarrant once he found out what his new pal Doran was really like. Tarrant and Vila did get on each other's nerves. Vila doesn't like being made to work, and Tarrant gets annoyed with Vila's laziness and habit of getting drunk or sleeping on duty, but I don't think they disliked each other; they are too comfortable in each other's presence for that. (OK, Adam, stop reading here; there be spoilers ahead.;-)) s p o i l e r s p a c e In "Rescue," Vila cared enough about Tarrant to save his life. I don't think he'd have done that for someone he disliked and distrusted. In "Power," Tarrant is willing to answer Vila's silly questions with patience and good humor; my favorite part of the episode in the conversation concerning rats. In this episode, Tarrant, Vila and Dayna are very friendly and easy wiht one another. As for "Traitor," Vila might well have been playing Devil's Advocate, to get Avon to do the right thing, since he knew a direct argument wouldn't work on Avon. Based on his behavior in other episodes, I think that's exactly what he's doing. In "Animals," there's quite a bit of banter as Vila is pushed into cleaning the glycolene tanks. Obviously, Vila has been taking the clean, easy jobs and leaving the hard dirty ones for everyone else to do.;-) Two more examples that really stand out are in "Headhunter" and "Games." In both of these, Tarrant and Vila seem quite at ease with each other, to the point where Vila will tease Tarrant about hard work in "Headhunter" and grab his foot to dust it off in "Games." I don't think he'd have done either of these things if he'd disliked and feared Tarrant. Finally, in "Blake," Vila risks Avon's anger by asking about Tarrant several times. As the godmother and several other people have pointed out, Vila was a grown man well able to take care of himself, with at least ten years on Tarrant. He was far tougher and sneakier than he appeared. If Vila had really disliked and distrusted Tarrant he would have avoided him or made his life a living hell. He doesn't do either of these things. > > In fact, Blake barely knew him but > > was ready to recruit him for his cause. > > Ah, be fair. That's likely because he had figured out that > Tarrant was with Avon. Actually, I think Carol is being more fair than you are here. It's entirely possible that Tarrant had quite a reputation as a pilot independant of Avon's group. Servalan had a very high respect for his skills in "Harvest of Kairos" and "Moloch" and she was not a woman who gave such respect without reason. Tiger M ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 23:22:31 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally (was Servalan) Message-ID: <19990517.232544.9926.0.Rilliara@juno.com> On Fri, 9 Jul 1999 21:58:58 +0100 "Neil Faulkner" writes: >AdamWho (who indeed?) wrote, re Cally: >+ADw-She came from a planet that lived with neutrality and nothing >else+AD4- > >Just because the series cites nothing else, that doesn't mean there >was >nothing else at all. > And just because they were neutral didn't mean they wouldn't have had some kind of military, even if it was one that hadn't had any serious battles for a very long time. If nothing else, they must have had some kind of border patrol. >+ADw-she had no military training that we know of+AD4- > >But just because we don't know of it doesn't mean she never had any. > Hear, hear! Besides, Cally's people (whether political party or something else) must have had some reason for deciding to send her specifically. Early on, she evaluated some of Blake's decisions from a strategic POV (although Avon thought it was suicidal. If he was right, it could still be argued Cally had a _theoretical_ grounding in battle strategy). In Shadow, she did a wonderful job of threatening a space station with the Liberator, acting both decisively and effectively. My personal guess is she had, by Auron standards, reasonable to very good military training, although she may have been lacking in practical experience (I'm undecided on this point). That may have also influenced her opposition to Auron's neutrality. She may have been better trained to look at the Federation as a military threat instead of simply a big neighbor. Even if Auron's military was more of a Coast Guard, patroling the borders and dealing with any distressed ships, smugglers, and illegal immigrants, that still would have given her more contact with outsiders and an understanding of their situation. Her medical training may have been limited to what she picked up from her twin sister (a twin to whom she was telepathically linked) or she may have had serious training of her own. The others trusted her to do first aid and administer potentially dangerous drugs (although, as they were living on adrenalin and soma, that trust may have been slightly over rated). True, she didn't know much about restraining potentially dangerous patients, but Aurons do a lot of passing out under stress. She may not have fully appreciated the problems with regular humans. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:52:39 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Disliking characters (was Servalan) Message-ID: <19990711025243.44926.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Carol Mc wrote: By by the same token, we can't assume that it *is* just dislike of a character, can we? I believe that Gan, for instance, would have disliked Tarrant. That's not *my* dislike of either character talking (I like them both) but the way I see them both. The fact that he isn't disliked by the ones he's with (though I do take some of Mistral's point. I don't think Vila disliked Tarrant all or even *most* of the time, but there were moments when he hated him. With reason) doesn't mean that Jenna, Blake or Gan would have felt the same way. IMO Blake, for instance, would have liked Tarrant quite a bit more than Avon does (because also IMO Avon neither likes nor dislikes Toothy.) Sure, our interpretations of crew dynamics (and potential crew dynamics) is heavily influenced by how we ourselves see the characters. But everyone does that (I can imagine some members of the Nostra firmly believing that all the good guys - and anyone with any intelligence at all - would *like* Tarrant. For which there isn't any evidence either). ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:54:51 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan Message-ID: <19990711025455.34061.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Adam wrote: Not really. After all, there *is* no real rivalry IMHO - Blake likes and is attracted to Jenna, but always puts way more time and attention into dealing with Avon. Avon actually likes Cally and Dayna far more than Jenna (I for one do not agree with him ). I'd compare his behaviour towards Jenna with that towards Gan - two crew members he cares about in a mild, faux-family sort of way (he would and did take risks to help them when necessary) but has next to no feelings towards personally. And he's aware that she distrusts him. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:00:26 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Tarrant and his crewmates Message-ID: <19990711030030.20916.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed After I wrote: Mistral added: Yeeesssss...not that I disagree with any of this (and I would add courage, tenacity, his own brand of integrity and probably a few others) but one has to say that all of those plusses would not be nearly as captivating - and his arrogance not nearly as forgiveable - in someone who looked like, say, Arco or Largo or Egrorian... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:06:10 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long) Message-ID: <19990711030610.75086.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed TigerM wrote: At this stage I wouldn't have put too much value on Servie's respect. She didn't *know* him - she would be going on what her intelligence people told her. Possibly the same ones who told her "Kerr Avon's only interested in power - offer it and he'll fall at your feet..." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:16:37 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long) Message-ID: <19990711031638.12634.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed TigerM wrote: Sorry, but this is totally wrong. The two cases are *completely* different. In SLD Vila is nervous (doing his patented half-resigned, half-joking dithering act) but not really badly scared. He has clearly agreed to do this and is simply wasting time. Blake is already *down* there - Vila isn't going to be alone for one minute - and the time-wasting is endangering Blake. Gan snaps at him to get on with it, does *not* threaten him. In City Vila is genuinely and with total justification terrified. He has never agreed to this, so Tarrant is terrorising him into it (and deliberately trying to abuse Vila's relationship with the others on the ship - he's being not only a bully, but quite viciously cruel in the bargain.) And not only does Tarrant not let him have company - he has agreed to - and is enforcing - a total ban on any help or rescue Vila might need. Yes, I take your point that that's what Tarrant agreed to. He should never have done so IMO. Everyone could be short or brusque with Vila - he quite often asked for it. But Gan was never deliberately brutal or cruel. To *anyone*. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:21:29 -0700 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long) Message-ID: <37880DB7.EEC1B7@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tigerm1019@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 7/10/99 12:05:01 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > mistral@ptinet.net writes: > > > There is, however, plenty of evidence for a reasonable observer > > to draw the conclusion that Vila neither liked nor trusted him. > > I don't think that's at all a stretch of the imagination; I'd say there's > > far stronger evidence that Vila didn't like him than that he did; > > Traitor by itself is enough for my mind. Of course Vila wasn't > > constantly going on about it; you can't live in an armed camp 24-7. > > Hmmm, I see considerable evidence for the opposite conclusion, that Vila > liked Tarrant and trusted him a great deal. Not surprising; I was merely saying that there is enough evidence to make a conclusion the other way supportable. I've seen far more outrageous theories propounded with much less canonical support. > The dynamics between them are > subtle and complex , and there's far more to them that an incident here and > there. As with all the characters. That in itself proves nothing. > In "Dawn of the Gods," Vila calls for Tarrant to come to his rescue, and > Tarrant is the one who goes to retrieve Vila's body for proper burial. Vila > wouldn't have called for Tarrant if he didn't trust him to come. This is more likely based on Vila's read of Tarrant's character, not any particular warmth for or dependence on Tarrant. He also called for Avon at one point. > They banter > together in "Harvest of Kairos," and Tarrant even leaves Vila in charge on > the flight deck while he goes to find Cally. Tarrant wouldn't have done that > if he didn't think Vila could handle it. Given the choice between Dayna and Vila, Vila is the obvious selection. Apart from that, says nothing about Vila's feelings for Tarrant. > When Vila makes his crack about > Tarrant being a "know-all," Tarrant just grins. Later he just claps Vila on > the shoulder when Vila used a trick he'd been saving for later; if he really > despised Vila, he wouldn't have acted this way. > > I think Tarrant saw Vila's "poor little me" act for what it was. These all have to do with Tarrant's attitude toward Vila, *not* Vila's attitude toward Tarrant. > Also, Vila > was bone lazy and had to be forced to contribute even a tiny part of his > share to the the group. The lives of the Liberator's crew depended on each > other, as did their success. If Vila wanted to get the benefits and > protection of the group, he had to give something back. On the two occasions > when Tarrant bullied Vila, the situation was critical. In "City at the Edge > of the World," they had to have those crystals if they wanted to have a > functioning weaponry system. Norl had specifically asked for Vila, and > Tarrant believed Vila could handle anything that happened down on Keezarn. > Tarrant didn't know they were dealing with Bayban. As far as I am concerned, none of the above mitigates Tarrant's abominable behaviour. It was not up to Tarrant to unilaterally decide that Vila had to give something back. He could have asked Avon and Cally to sort out a better way to deal with Vila. Even Avon could have handled this with more tact; he would at least have reassured Vila they'd have kept an eye on him via the tracer. Considering the dangers for a known associate of Blake's once off the Liberator, Tarrant's threat to throw Vila off amounts fairly directly to a death threat and is IMAO unforgivable. Apart from that, Norl asking for Vila, on a technologically backward planet with no Federation ties, and therefore no reasonable way to know anything about Vila, should have given Tarrant reason to suspect a trap and be more careful with Vila's safety. > In "Rumours of Death," all the crew, even Cally work together to pull Avon > out of the fire, although Vila's inattention at the teleport console and > drinking on duty nearly get Avon toasted. Again, nothing to do with Vila's attitude to Tarrant. > In "Moloch," Vila is sleeping in > Tarrant's chair. Not Tarrant's chair. Most of them have been shown in that chair when on watch. Even if it were Tarrant's chair, that would mean nothing, as I doubt Vila would distrust a chair simply because Tarrant had sat in it. > Tarrant isn't any rougher with vila on board the Liberator > than Gan was with him when he blaked at going down to Centero > in"Seek-Locate-Destroy." Not true. Gan snaps at Vila, once or twice and fairly mildly. Not the same thing as threats and pointing a gun at him. > When Tarrant pulled the gun on him, Vila had > mutinied in the middle of a mission. That was stupid. The Liberator is not the military and Tarrant is not Vila's superior officer. Tarrant had shanghied Vila into a dangerous situation that Vila really didn't want to be in. Vila was so aggravated that he threatened to leave the Liberator -- a fairly dangerous thing for him to consider. Even Avon objected to Tarrant's treatment of Vila!!! Rather a severe indictment in itself. > I find it interesting > that Vila wasn't frightened, only hurt and disappointed. This reaction is consistent with Vila's being so exasperated that it overrode his usual timidity. He was angry; his facial expression doesn't indicate sadness. > And he was happy > enough to go along with Tarrant once he found out what his new pal Doran was > really like. Are we watching the same show? There's no evidence whatsoever that he distrusted, disliked, or feared Doran. Far more likely that when he ran across Servalan he realised he had to do something to protect himself and the Liberator crew. He was glad enough to see Doran again when he showed up. > Tarrant and Vila did get on each other's nerves. Vila doesn't like being > made to work, and Tarrant gets annoyed with Vila's laziness and habit of > getting drunk or sleeping on duty, but I don't think they disliked each > other; they are too comfortable in each other's presence for that. Comfort doesn't always indicate liking. If you have to live with people, you adapt. > (OK, Adam, stop reading here; there be spoilers ahead.;-)) > > s > p > o > i > l > e > r > > s > p > a > c > e > > In "Rescue," Vila cared enough about Tarrant to save his life. I don't think > he'd have done that for someone he disliked and distrusted. Vila was indeed part of the team and planned to save Cally as well; Tarrant was likely just closer and easier to get to. Vila's not stupid; in the situation they were in, losing any member lowers all of their chances for survival. Dislike and distrust doesn't mean you want either for someone to die, or to forfeit the use of their skills. However, if he'd known he could only save one of them, he might have opted for Cally; there's no way to know. > In "Power," > Tarrant is willing to answer Vila's silly questions with patience and good > humor; my favorite part of the episode in the conversation concerning rats. > In this episode, Tarrant, Vila and Dayna are very friendly and easy wiht one > another. Still more indicative of Tarrant's attitude towards Vila. As I said, when you live with people, you adapt. > As for "Traitor," Vila might well have been playing Devil's Advocate, to get > Avon to do the right thing, since he knew a direct argument wouldn't work on > Avon. Based on his behavior in other episodes, I think that's exactly what > he's doing. His attitude is too acidic for that. Apart from which, Vila wouldn't be interested in getting Avon to do the right thing. Besides, Vila is none too adept at manipulating Avon, else he'd do a better job more often. And the one time I can recall him doing it successfully is in 'Stardrive'. > In "Animals," there's quite a bit of banter as Vila is pushed > into cleaning the glycolene tanks. Obviously, Vila has been taking the > clean, easy jobs and leaving the hard dirty ones for everyone else to do.;-) Vila's one jibe at Tarrant doesn't seem all that good-natured to me. > Two more examples that really stand out are in "Headhunter" and "Games." In > both of these, Tarrant and Vila seem quite at ease with each other, to the > point where Vila will tease Tarrant about hard work in "Headhunter" and grab > his foot to dust it off in "Games." I don't think he'd have done either of > these things if he'd disliked and feared Tarrant. I've never said Vila feared Tarrant after City. Distrust is quite different from fear. I consider the comments in Headhunter a typical Vila ramble that he'd have aimed at anybody, and in Games Vila was in his element, working, and Tarrant's boot was where the dust was. > Finally, in "Blake," Vila > risks Avon's anger by asking about Tarrant several times. Now there's a stretch. This is far more likely the spectre of Orbit rising up to haunt Vila than any actual concern over Tarrant. Apart from which, Avon's pointed and yet calm ignoring of Vila's question is, in Avon's case, more indicative of discomfort than anger, and Vila would know that. > As the godmother and several other people have pointed out, Vila was a grown > man well able to take care of himself, with at least ten years on Tarrant. > He was far tougher and sneakier than he appeared. If Vila had really > disliked and distrusted Tarrant he would have avoided him or made his life a > living hell. He doesn't do either of these things. Vila's usual method of taking care of himself, all the way as far back as the London, was to attach himself to a protector; first Gan, then Avon. Please to note that he never shifts this to Tarrant, even though Avon's protection is occasionally questionable at best. Not really possible to avoid Tarrant in such close quarters; but he shows a strong preference for Avon's company, for all that Tarrant is such an upright type and Avon so -- difficult. Making Tarrant's life a living hell would be stupid; asking for trouble. As for Vila disliking Tarrant, he's got ample reason; City and Moloch are the two worst examples of Tarrant's bullying, but Tarrant's never exactly what you'd call nice to him. Tarrant actually attacks Vila physically in Warlord. Evidence that he doesn't like or trust Tarrant? Well, he says so repeatedly; off the top of my head, Volcano, Traitor, and Orbit leap out. Vila's pot shots at Avon and his remarks about Tarrant have an entirely different tone to them; re Tarrant, his tone's darker and less humourous. I'll forbear an ep-by-ep analysis as this is already overlong. My point is, there's plenty of places where Tarrant is nasty to Vila, and plenty of places where Vila says he doesn't trust Tarrant, coupled with a complete dearth of them actually saying anything nice about each other. At least Avon and Vila actually compliment each other occasionally. So I do think that it's not unreasonable for somebody to conclude that Vila doesn't like Tarrant; you're free to draw another conclusion, and I've never said you aren't. > > > In fact, Blake barely knew him but > > > was ready to recruit him for his cause. > > > > Ah, be fair. That's likely because he had figured out that > > Tarrant was with Avon. > > Actually, I think Carol is being more fair than you are here. It's entirely > possible that Tarrant had quite a reputation as a pilot independant of Avon's > group. Servalan had a very high respect for his skills in "Harvest of > Kairos" and "Moloch" and she was not a woman who gave such respect without > reason. In Powerplay, Avon had never heard of Tarrant and Tarrant didn't seem to think he should have. More likely that between Powerplay and Harvest Servalan had heard of Tarrant and researched him; even the labour grades at Space Command knew Tarrant was on the Liberator by then. That doesn't correspond to Blake having knowledge of Tarrant prior to Tarrant's association with Avon and Liberator. Blake's interest in Tarrant is piqued by the teleport bracelets in Scorpio, he tests Tarrant with stories about Jenna, he sorts out that Orac is controlling the flyer that follows them, he got Tarrant's name from Slave. As Blake was expecting Avon eventually, that's plenty of evidence that Tarrant was with Avon, and that Blake would give the benefit of the doubt to anyone Avon brought along. There are many things to like about Tarrant. The way he treats Vila is not one of them. I'm quite fond of the way he shows such joy in his work; he clearly loves to fly. I also admire his consistency with regard to his personal code, although I'm in disagreement about the particulars of it. It is possible, however, to think that one of the characters (Vila) might not like him without that being tantamount to excessive and unmitigated Tarrant-bashing. Just IMHO, Mistral -- "We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell; we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question-- one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:25:11 PDT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan) and apology to TigerM Message-ID: <19990711032512.92881.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed TigerM I just re-read your post (I'm *not* having a good day) and realised that you were talking about Tarrant bullying Vila in *Moloch* not (as I first thought) City. I apologise. You have a far better case in the second one, though I still don't see the resemblance between Gan snapping at Vila and Tarrant pulling a gun on him. (But if I can forgive Avon for kicking Vila in Hostage, I don't see why Tarrant fans can't forgive him for this). I mainly dislike Tarrant's behaviou in Moloch because it proves that he *didn't* think the far uglier behaviour in City was wrong. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 19:57:44 -0700 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] The estimable Jarriere Message-ID: <37880828.AFB6230A@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: > With regard to the Buffy/B7 crossover I'm working on: > I'm coming up on a scene requiring some Jarriere-Servalan > interaction; is there a Jarriere fan out there who has some > thoughts they'd like to share about Jarriere himself and his > relationship with the Supreme Commander? Otherwise, I'm > afraid it may be quite tepid and have to be thrown out. > Upon first viewing, I chalked it up to bad casting. That fluffy bunny in no way seemed Servie's type. The list responses to your query have been creative and enlightening. And the thread got me pondering. Here's my take: Servalan likes smart men (Carnell, Avon) and she likes strong men (Jarvik, Travis I) and she likes the occasional cute fluffy bunny (Ray, the boy pilot in Sand) for a fling. But I think she likes smart men best. What woman with a brain would not? The trouble with smart men is that they are smart enough to double cross her and even one-upmanship her. Servalan *must* be top dog, alpha wolf, and she would *hate* that sort of challenge from a boytoy. I can imagine one such soured carnal affair (ahem, no pun intended) that made her vow: Enough! I shall not trust smart men with my intimate moments. I shall take for my consort on this little vacation trip to Las Vegas a man who is willing to please me physically but lacks the wit to challenge me politically. In fact he is such a zero threat that she can even talk to him openly about her treacherous schemes. Why not? He's about as dangerous / intelligent as a stuffed teddy bear. Why do we not see Jerriere again? Despite her vows, Servalan soon finds such a man to be - yawn - simply boring. So she puts him aside and goes back to chasing smart men. Like Avon. That's my 22 cents worth: Pat http://www.geocities.com/area51/1707 ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:19:18 -0700 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan) Message-ID: <37880D36.2273C027@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: > Cally's values are social, emotional, inclusive; whereas Avon's > are individual, factual, exclusive. This sets up a situation where > her values lead her to encourage him to be more inclusive, and > his values lead him to interpret that as invasive, and he will resist > her efforts by moving in the opposite direction. > Soolin, OTOH, shares most of Avon's values, doesn't need > to change him, doesn't need the intimacy -- and is therefore > more likely to get it. I hate to say, "me too" but here I simply must: "Me Too!" And, Soolin has a sense of humor similar to that of Avon, while Cally is surely the most humorless character in the entire series. Does she ever joke or even crack a smile? Avon has what we term a "very British" sense of humor: a subtle appreciation of sarcasm and irony. A friendship (or anything closer) can only develop if there is some shared sense of humor: otherwise there is a constant sense of annoyance that the other never understands your jokes. Blake understood Avon's sense of humor: many of his put downs are double edged as subtle jokes. Avon "gets it" Plus, Avon admires competence. It's where he can admire *something* about Vila. Avon is clearly not a fan of Cally's "skill" telepathy: he lectures her crossly: "You don't know something, you think it." Cally simply has no skills that Avon admires. Soolin does. Pragmatism. And eyes in the back of her head. Pragmatic Pat http://www.geocities.com/area51/1707 ________________________________________________________ NetZero - We believe in a FREE Internet. Shouldn't you? Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 15:51:01 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan) Message-ID: <19990711055104.79147.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Mac4781@aol.com >To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se >Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan) >Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 06:40:07 EDT > >Jo Ann wrote: > > > So far as I'm concerned, all that speculation people were doing earlier > > about the way Avon sees women applies quite well to Soolin - she's >useful >if > > she works with him, but dangerous if she doesn't. > >Good observation. It fits in with Avon's line in GAMES: >"Belkov trusts no one, which is a strength, because that means that no one >can betray him. But it is also a weakness because it means that he is the >only one who can defend what is his." > >Avon knows the value of trusted associates, as long as they are >trustworthy. >:) > >Soolin is the same. And it's that quality in her that makes Avon/Soolin >seem >very unlikely to me. I think Soolin knows better than to get emotionally >involved with an untrustworthy employer. After what happened with Dorian >she'd be especially on guard. And she doesn't trust Avon, as her comment >in >BLAKE indicates: > >"I really could be quite annoyed if I thought we'd been the bait in a trap >you'd laid for them, Avon." > >Before I could believe a romantic A/Soolin I'd need to see that she came to >trust him. Or had a personality transplant that sent her pragmatic side >packing. > > > To digress a little, can I say that Avon's not mad in the fourth >season, > > just indifferent to the majority of things that might deflect him from > > getting the Federation off his back? > >I see signs of stress in all of them, but no madness. > >More from Jo Ann (on the possibility that Soolin might not want to hang >around with Avon): > > > I'm wondering if it's just mental jaundice today, or am I becoming > > disillusioned with Avon? (Yes, I know, heresy! ) > >I think you're realistically observing that the females on Blake's 7 >weren't >as inclined to froth over their various shipmates as much as we fans do. > >Avon was just a dangerous employer with a large nose to Soolin. ;) > >Good luck with the vacation countdown. Do you have any exciting plans? >Such >as sitting on a beach and working on your Tarrant Nostra skills? ;) > >Carol Mc > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 02:21:55 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally (was Servalan) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-10 21:58:00 EDT, rilliara@juno.com writes: << True, she didn't know much about restraining potentially dangerous patients, but Aurons do a lot of passing out under stress. She may not have fully appreciated the problems with regular humans. >> Gan went beserk and tried to kill several crew members. Even if she didn't appreciate the problems, surely she must have realized letting him out of his bonds was a mistake. Whether he claimed to be better or not. Her decisions probably came more out of compassion than stupidity, but it was still a poor decision. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 16:34:09 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan) Message-ID: <19990711063411.81593.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Let's see if I can do this properly this time Without hitting any further wrong keys on this thing (meaning my brother's laptop). My first attempt to answer this was accidently sent straight to Carol, who informs me that AOL must've been hungry (well, that's not exactly what she said, but it comes to the same thing...) Let's see how much of what I wrote before that I can remember, and how coherent I can manage to be with a temperature above normal. >From: Mac4781@aol.com >Jo Ann wrote: > > So far as I'm concerned, all that speculation people were doing earlier > > about the way Avon sees women applies quite well to Soolin - she's >useful if > > she works with him, but dangerous if she doesn't. >Good observation. It fits in with Avon's line in GAMES: >"Belkov trusts no one, which is a strength, because that means that no one >can betray him. But it is also a weakness because it means that he is the >only one who can defend what is his." Really, Avon could've been talking about himself there. >Avon knows the value of trusted associates, as long as they are >trustworthy. >:) >Soolin is the same. And it's that quality in her that makes Avon/Soolin >seem >very unlikely to me. I know that Mistral thinks otherwise, but I am glad that there is someone else who appears to think that similarities will repel, in their case. My speculation would be that they would become more suspicious of each other over time, simply because they are too well aware of what makes the other tick, and not necessarily caring for it. >I think Soolin knows better than to get emotionally >involved with an untrustworthy employer. After what happened with Dorian >she'd be especially on guard. When it comes to shiftiness, Dorian would beat Avon time and time again. But, and I think you're right, someone as self-contained as we are meant to believe she is would be especially wary. Dorian did try to feed her to the thing in the cellar, and there they all are still living in the same place. I'll say one thing for Soolin - she must be good at compartmentalising thoughts and feelings in her brain to keep on living in Xenon base. I'd want to be somewhere else. >Before I could believe a romantic A/Soolin I'd need to see that she >came >to trust him. Or had a personality transplant that sent her >pragmatic side >packing. This could be a little harsh, as it appears (to me, at least) that her pragmatic side is all there is. Her comment when Zeeona says something to the effect of "You know what fathers are like" suggests that she's been denied rather a lot in the way of human interaction. If all she's ever seen is the worst side of human nature, she's not going to be in a hurry to trust anyone, or so I feel. >I see signs of stress in all of them, but no madness. Fair enough. It's not as though they were leading nice, calm lives. We all know what happened when Cally attempted some meditation exercises (that was an extremely uncomfortable-looking position Blake was meant to be holding!). >Avon was just a dangerous employer with a large nose to Soolin. ;) Avon has my sympathy, when it comes to proboscis measurements. >Good luck with the vacation countdown. Do you have any exciting plans? >Such >as sitting on a beach and working on your Tarrant Nostra skills? ;) I knew this would happen Express a crisis of faith in the One True Avon, and Her Holiness the Godmother, Archbishop of the Church of St Curlytop the Younger comes sniffing around. What are Tarrant Nostra skills, anyway? Is there a mantra to be chanted? Or some sort of martial art, a tai chi-like set of movements not unlike those needed to pilot the Liberator? Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:35:43 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan) Message-ID: <19990518.003546.9790.1.Rilliara@juno.com> On Sat, 10 Jul 1999 20:19:18 -0700 Pat Patera writes: >Mistral wrote: >> Cally's values are social, emotional, inclusive; whereas Avon's >> are individual, factual, exclusive. This sets up a situation where >> her values lead her to encourage him to be more inclusive, and >> his values lead him to interpret that as invasive, and he will >resist >> her efforts by moving in the opposite direction. > >> Soolin, OTOH, shares most of Avon's values, doesn't need >> to change him, doesn't need the intimacy -- and is therefore >> more likely to get it. > >I hate to say, "me too" but here I simply must: "Me Too!" > And the Cally and Avon fan club flies to the counter argument. I think part of what underlay Cally's attraction for Avon was envy. Sure, Avon didn't trust, _chose_ to be a loner, and all that, but he envied Cally's ability to go the other way. It was like his relationship with Blake, IMHO. He didn't trust idealism and all the rest of it, but there was a part of him that wanted too. He didn't trust many of the things Cally relied on, but there was a part of him that wanted to trust and not constantly be on guard. I think he also recognized the dangers of trusting someone who held too closely to the code he claimed to believe in. "The Prince" has never been subtitled "How to Win Friends and Influence People" no matter what Servalan thinks. >A friendship (or anything closer) can only develop if there is some >shared sense of humor: otherwise there is a constant sense of >annoyance >that the other never understands your jokes. I think Cally got them, she just didn't have the same cultural body language for expressing it (or they weren't that funny by Auron standards). The only times she seemed to smile was in friendship or in appreciation of another person (such as when Avon tried to cheer her up in Sarcophagus). I don't recall Cally ever taking Avon's remarks as a straight line when she shouldn't have. In Duel, she admitted to understanding the context and hidden meanings of Avon's remark better than Vila. >Plus, Avon admires competence. It's where he can admire *something* >about Vila. Avon is clearly not a fan of Cally's "skill" telepathy: he >lectures her crossly: "You don't know something, you think it." Cally >simply has no skills that Avon admires. Except her talent as an intelligent ally, especially when he needed to confront Blake with. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 May 1999 00:04:00 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Avon and Liberator Message-ID: <19990518.003546.9790.0.Rilliara@juno.com> When Avon told Blake he wanted the Liberator, Avon was expecting Blake to more or less succeed at Star One, then go to Earth and either become president or continue leading the revolution from there. In the first case, Avon wouldn't have to worry about the Federation and Servalan being after him and the ship because they wouldn't be around to do it. In the second case, he wouldn't have to worry because they would have Blake (a bigger concern to them than the ship) up close wrecking havoc. Either way, he probably felt fairly safe about flying off into the sunset. Although I think his primary reason to search for Blake in season 3 was to, well, find Blake, he must have realized how much less trouble he would have had if Blake had been around to draw the Federation's attention. Ellynne ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jul 1999 02:46:08 EDT From: AdamWho@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Tarrant and Vila (was Re: [B7L] Servalan)(long) Message-ID: <44f3364f.24b997b0@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 99-07-10 23:20:44 EDT, mistral@ptinet.net writes: << > In "Rescue," Vila cared enough about Tarrant to save his life. I don't think > he'd have done that for someone he disliked and distrusted. Vila was indeed part of the team and planned to save Cally as well; Tarrant was likely just closer and easier to get to. Vila's not stupid; in the situation they were in, losing any member lowers all of their chances for survival. Dislike and distrust doesn't mean you want either for someone to die, or to forfeit the use of their skills. However, if he'd known he could only save one of them, he might have opted for Cally; there's no way to know. >> I've seen Rescue (that was a Boucher script? not one of his better efforts), and I agree with what you said about Vila saving Tarrant. I also think he saved Tarrant because he knew they'd need a pilot to get them off Terminal. Not because of any great friendship. -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #214 **************************************