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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 210
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Cally (was Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
[B7L] Re: voting
Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan)
[B7L] no joke
Re: [B7L] Servalan
Re: [B7L] Servalan
Re: [B7L] Servalan
Re: [B7L] Servalan
Re: [B7L] Servalan
Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Servalan
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Servalan
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Servalan
Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:19:37 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist
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Julie wrote:
> Mistral wrote:
>
> >I wasn't referring to his slapping Sara; I was referring to
> >his *enormous* blind spot with regard to women, which I've
> >elaborated on in the past, and which is an obvious offshoot
> >of male chauvinist attitudes; he tends to dichotomize women
> >into 'decorative/useless' and 'intelligent/dangerous', and always
> >assumes the first until proven the latter. Occasionally he runs
> >into one that doesn't fit either mould (usually a crewmember),
> >and you can practically see him sizing them up and slotting
> >them into the exception category, at which point, they very
> >nearly become genderless to him.
>
> But I don't see how he would fit Anna Grant into the categories
> you suggest:
>
> - If he thinks her intelligent then you are suggesting
> he would also suspect her of being dangerous - can't see Avon
> sticking around long in that case.
>
> - If he slots her in to the exception category then she becomes
> genderless to him - didn't look like that to me.
>
> - That only leaves decorative and useless and I can't
> see Avon risking so much for someone he categorizes as useless.
Maybe it's because she confounded all his expectations that he fell in love
with her.
Una - surprisingly still romantic
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 14:22:47 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "B7 List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
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Mistral wrote:
> The first place this is really noticeable for me is Mission to
> Destiny; he never seriously considers that Sara, a woman,
> might be the murderer. If he'd seriously thought 'Sara?' and
> looked at the 54124, there'd have been no further plot. And
> he continues to display this blind spot, up until at least Assassin,
> wherein he goes about a long description of Cancer: 'he' this,
> 'he' that, every sentence or phrase starting with 'he', and Avon
> never stops to think that Cancer might be a woman, and indeed
> that might be why she's gone undetected so long.
>
> You can't blame bad writing for this blind spot because the
> other male characters don't share it; and of course none of the
> females do.
I think it's entirely bad writing, to be honest. It's the laziest of
twists - Aha! The baddy was <ta da!> a WOMAN!!!! (As in 'Two things must you
know about the baddy - first, he is bad, second he is... a WOMAN!!')
You get this in an episode of 'Survivors' as well. Crappy 70s chauvinism.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:31:49 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <4bc903bd.24b4bed5@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-07 04:16:53 EDT, mistral@ptinet.net writes:
<< OTOH, he writes perfect Avon. (Playing with the sopron; guilt
over letting Tarrant take Vila to Sardos; waxing professorial
with Dayna over Moloch; and being a male chauvinist, which,
yes, Avon is, and it shows up at least as early as Mission to
Destiny -- Steed didn't invent it.)
<veg> >>
His writing for Avon was better than the rest of the characters, but I hated
most of the dialogue. For Avon and everyone else. Since Vila is my favorite
character, it infuriated me whenever Tarrant bullied him, grabbed him by the
arm and jerked him to the teleport area, pulled a gun on him, and treated him
like garbage. I never really liked Blake, but even Blake treated Vila with
enough kindness to not drag him around by the arm like a piece of meat.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:38:15 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Cally (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <2f48d5b2.24b4c057@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-07 06:10:30 EDT, smanton@hotmail.com writes:
<< Oh, she's not too bad in Voice (an episode I can see the
faults of, but like because Cally is pretty good and the
Avon/Blake bits are wonderful <g>). Problem is, *Jenna* wimps out in that
one. >>
I like Jenna talking to Avon about the ugly planet below and the poor damage
mining causes, and I like her taking off her teleport bracelet, but Jenna has
nothing to do in the rest. I initially thought this could be a decent episode
for Jenna, when she helped Blake with the mind therapy, etc. but she vanished
15 or 20 minutes into the episode and didn't appear again until the last few
minutes.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:42:45 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <4c44314d.24b4c165@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-07 06:12:26 EDT, smanton@hotmail.com writes:
<< I have a feeling that Zen might not have been so welcoming
had it got a look inside Avon's mind first. But Blake would
most likely have been just as acceptable to Zen. That two
minutes does not a claim of ownership make. Jenna was the
pilot, true. But this is a computer-driven spaceship. The
computer expert (who would have spent the next two years
happily restructuring and reprogramming and redirecting anything he could)
was Avon. >>
I think any of the original three who found the ship deserved an equal claim
to the ship. Jenna knew how to fly the ship, Blake gave the orders, Avon was
the computer expert, each had a seperate role. Since Avon seemed bored,
listless, and disinterested once Blake left the ship and Avon got what he
wanted, I wonder if Avon simply wanted Liberator because it was Blake's. He
had no more right to it then Jenna did, but Jenna didn't care about staking
any claims. She left with Blake, then on her own, never caring enough to come
back. Since the only one she might consider a friend had died, and she never
seemed to care for Avon or Cally, I can understand why she didn't care to
come back.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:51:20 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <36d7c64f.24b4c368@aol.com>
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In a message dated 99-07-07 06:41:58 EDT, mistral@ptinet.net writes:
<< As for Harvest and Moloch, Servalan was amused by
Jarvik, not bested by him, and in Moloch, it was only the
*villains* who were abusing women. I frankly don't see
how a rational person can seriously level claims of
misogyny against Steed based on those. >>
I think Steed can be credited with misogny, or at the very least an obsession
with "real men" subduing women (Jarvik\Servalan, those scummy men in Moloch
shooting faster than Mutiod and "giving Servalan to the men", the merry band
of singing drunks presumably raping the women sent down to them). Steed can
also be credited with enough unintelligible sci-fi babble to make my eyes
glaze over, bad dialogue, and a complete lack of creativity that causes him
to just wipe out the supporting characters he writes (Jarvik, Doran), in the
last 2 minutes of the episode. I really hate that, characters being bumped
off for no other reason than a writer with a lack of better ideas.
On the plus side, I do like his writing for Dayna. Her gentle teasing of
Avon, the banter, the slight smile on her face when she holds the dead mouse
and hands it to Avon. Maybe Josette Simon deserves more credit for that than
Steed, I don't know.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 10:52:59 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <62d92ed1.24b4c3cb@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 99-07-07 07:14:34 EDT, smanton@hotmail.com writes:
<< Me, I always thought that he (and they) didn't think of Sara because it
took
rather a large suspension of disbelief to imagine someone that small lugging
those considerably bigger bodies around... >>
Or she was such an obnoxious, annoying twit Avon\Cally tried to block her out
of their memories as much as possible. I know I did.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 16:25:09 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <001801bec88c$ec0bb740$0d01a8c0@hedge>
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Adam wrote:
> In a message dated 99-07-07 06:41:58 EDT, mistral@ptinet.net writes:
>
> << As for Harvest and Moloch, Servalan was amused by
> Jarvik, not bested by him, and in Moloch, it was only the
> *villains* who were abusing women. I frankly don't see
> how a rational person can seriously level claims of
> misogyny against Steed based on those. >>
>
> I think Steed can be credited with misogny, or at the very least an
obsession
> with "real men" subduing women (Jarvik\Servalan, those scummy men in
Moloch
> shooting faster than Mutiod and "giving Servalan to the men", the merry
band
> of singing drunks presumably raping the women sent down to them).
Judith's website has an excellent, thoughtful essay by Harriet about 'Power'
and Ben Steed's misogyny which explained exactly why I had always felt
unease about this, even as an eight-year-old. It's at:
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7/Essays/Pella.html
Una
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 18:11:36 +0100
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
To: space-city@world.std.com, Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>,
Lexx list <Dark-Zone-Liaisons@onelist.com>
Subject: [B7L] Re: voting
Message-ID: <37838A46.E828CE70@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
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Typical, within an hour of me posting about the poll the site went down
and it still is. I've emailed the list owner who first announced it on
another list to find out what has happened. I'll let you know when I
know.
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson
"What is it with you and holes?"
Xena to Gabrielle, Paradise Found
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 13:17:14 EDT
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <14dc7423.24b4e59a@aol.com>
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In a message dated 7/7/99 7:46:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, AdamWho@AOL.COM
writes:
> I think any of the original three who found the ship deserved an equal
claim
> to the ship. Jenna knew how to fly the ship, Blake gave the orders, Avon
was
>
> the computer expert, each had a seperate role. Since Avon seemed bored,
> listless, and disinterested once Blake left the ship and Avon got what he
> wanted, I wonder if Avon simply wanted Liberator because it was Blake's.
I think this is it exactly. Avon wanted the glamor and power of having the
Liberator, but he didn't want the responsibility that went with it. He got
what he thought he wanted, only to discover that it wasn't what he wanted at
all.
> He
> had no more right to it then Jenna did, but Jenna didn't care about
staking
> any claims. She left with Blake, then on her own, never caring enough to
> come
> back. Since the only one she might consider a friend had died, and she
never
>
> seemed to care for Avon or Cally, I can understand why she didn't care to
> come back.
I think Jenna was wise enough to realize that the Liberator would make her a
very conspicuous target, associated with the rebellion as it was and as
desireable as it was. Servalan certainly devoted considerable time and
resources towards acquiring it in the third season. There was no reason for
her to return and plenty of reasons not to.
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 08:53:42 -0700
From: Pat Patera <patpatera@netzero.net>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] no joke
Message-ID: <37837806.3F2A8B23@netzero.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sugar wrote:
re: Tramilla
> < So Pat.....when are you going to write Chess?
>
> Is this a joke or for real? Is there to be a sequel to Checkers. Would this
> BE a sequel to Checkers. Or have I fallen for a joke?
Tramila, you just stop that right now <whap><whap><whap>
So Tramila, when are you going to write that "r_n_n__" book you've been
talking about for so many years? <whip><crack><snap>
No Sugar, not a joke, Chess is a more complex game than Checkers and
that may be why the story still sits only in outline stage in the drawer
these 7 years later.
No, the real reason is that since the invention of the web, writing
email list posts takes all my scribble time.
:-)
Pat "my pen is out of ink" Patera
________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 15:39:47 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <000701bec8ad$2b4fcca0$df1aac3e@default>
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AdamWho wrote:
>In a message dated 99-07-05 23:26:21 EDT, mistral@ptinet.net writes:
<< For me, the problem with Servalan as a character (apart
from the fact that I simply loathe her) is that she perpetuates
the myth that an intelligent, sexy, independent, powerful
woman *must* be evil, a la Snow White's stepmother,
black widows, etc. >
Don't Cally and Jenna break that myth? I think did a fairly good job of
representing both sides, even if they stuck Cally and Jenna with teleport
duty too often.>
Whilst both of them, particularly Jenna, were -strong- characters, neither
of them were powerful in the way that Servalan was, ie holding a position of
authority within an insititutional hierarchy. Nobody on the Liberator was
ever powerful in that sense.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jul 1999 15:28:53 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <000601bec8ad$22ee69e0$df1aac3e@default>
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Tanja Kimkel sagte:
<Excuse me, but in which scenes does Servalan use her sexual allure to get
to the
top? We never see her sleep or flirt with any admirals or other men more
powerful than her before she's president. When she's introduced, the only
one
she's flirting with is her aide, and while a case can be made against
Servalan
as a sexual molestor on the working place here, it hardly is a method to
"get to
the top by lying on her back". Servalan methods shown to gain more power
while
she's Supreme Commander are usually murderous plots (such as her idea of
getting Orac for free by killing of Ensor Jr. and Marryatt), but they don't
include her using her sex appeal to carry them through. As you yourself
point
out, her actual coup d'état is carried out efficiently and without any
batting
of eyelashes. >
I've expressed myself badly on this one. While we don't know that
Servalan -didn't- sleep her way to the top, I agree it's highly unlikely in
her case. Mistral made a far better job of putting my point across ('she
perpetuates the myth that an intelligent, sexy, independent, powerful
woman -must- be evil'). She does, however, seem to embody the (false) idea
that a woman in a position of institutionalised power has to be sexy, with
the implication that sex is the primary weapon in her arsenal. The writers
tended to push this aspect to the foreground, the one notable exception
being (surprise) Chris Boucher. The asexually powerful Servalan is best
portrayed in Star One, Trial, and Rumours - all Boucher episodes. Terry
Nation also handled her well in Terminal, and surprisingly Ben Steed did too
in Moloch (though not perhaps in Harvest).
By saying that 'her power is rooted in her sexual allure', I meant not so
much Servalan herself as the way she tended to be written. And the way I
see Servalan as one of the worst characters (male or female) in B7 also lies
largely in the way she was handled by the writers. Head of the military -
and later President - tripping through quarries in her high heels? No way.
As I've said before, though maybe not on this list, she should have been
stuck firmly where a top politico belongs - behind a desk.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 15:55:06 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <c81cb40e.24b50a9a@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 99-07-07 15:16:46 EDT, N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes:
<< Head of the military -
and later President - tripping through quarries in her high heels? No way.
As I've said before, though maybe not on this list, she should have been
stuck firmly where a top politico belongs - behind a desk. >>
In theory, I might agree, but on the show, Servalan freeing herself from that
white office was a breath of fresh air for the character. She spent two
seasons plotting with Travis, against Travis, against Travis and Blake, with
the plots wearing a little thin by the end of season 2. I liked seeing
Servalan interact with crew members (Cally, Vila, Dayna, etc.), the strange
relationship with Avon, and everything she did in Aftermath.
I think the one truly ludricous Servalan episode is Orac, when she runs
around caves with Travis. The rest of her out of office appearances aren't
bad, in some cases (The Keeper), the episodes would have been complete tripe
without her brief scenes.
Around the time of Seek-Locate-Destroy and Project Avalon, Servalan was a
cliche. Entertaining, but still a cliche. As the series went on, she
developed into a treacherous, fascinating, flawed character. Eventually she
became more interesting than several of the Liberator crew. Some of my
favorite Servalan episodes involve her at her desk (Rumours of Death), some
involve her more actively participating in the action (Children of Auron), I
think the mixture benefited her.
Which episode did she trip through quarries in? Volcano? If it is, I agree
with you, Servalan running around the terrain seemed idiotic, but almost
everything in Volcano seemed idiotic.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 17:36:40 EDT
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: N.Faulkner@tesco.net, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <eeee9245.24b52268@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 7/7/99 12:16:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes:
> Don't Cally and Jenna break that myth? I think did a fairly good job of
> representing both sides, even if they stuck Cally and Jenna with teleport
> duty too often.>
>
> Whilst both of them, particularly Jenna, were -strong- characters, neither
> of them were powerful in the way that Servalan was, ie holding a position
of
> authority within an insititutional hierarchy. Nobody on the Liberator was
> ever powerful in that sense.
This is true. What sort of President do you think Blake would have been if
his revolution had succeeded? Would he have been like Yeltsin or Mandela or
found a way all his own to screw up?;-)
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1999 23:58:25 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <000a01bec8cc$5002ffd0$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Tiger M wrote:
> This is true. What sort of President do you think Blake would have been
if
> his revolution had succeeded? Would he have been like Yeltsin or Mandela
or
> found a way all his own to screw up?;-)
'Dreadful!' shrieks Matthew. 'He would have been just like Blair!
Sanctimonious, self-serving, and WRONG.'
What do I think? I think he would have had a hard time of it - at least, it
would be more interesting that way <g> I think the need to compromise many
of his ideals would have left him a disappointed man. Blake isn't vain
enough to convince himself that something is a success when it isn't.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 09:17:35 EST
From: Joanne MacQueen <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990707231736.66560.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
mistral wrote (four times apparently - is it just me, or a problem at your
end?)
> > bonus - as Mistral says - of both being good at handling
> > Avon. They could compare notes and gang up on him.
>Or, contrariwise, Avon and Soolin could divide Blake up
>and conquer him :) :) :)
That very much depends on how long you think they could put up with one
another if it wasn't necessary. If you think Soolin is that much like Avon,
then there's the possibility that they might become rivals for Blake's
attention. Personally, I think in this circumstance, Avon would rather work
on Blake with the help of someone a little more malleable, and I can't think
of anyone that's likely to describe after Gauda Prime. Not even Vila, given
what happened in Orbit.
Regards
Joanne
(trying to make sense of a thread's postings received out of chronological
order)
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 09:20:37 EST
From: Joanne MacQueen <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990707232037.286.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>I think it's entirely bad writing, to be honest. It's the laziest of
>twists - Aha! The baddy was <ta da!> a WOMAN!!!! (As in 'Two things >must
>you know about the baddy - first, he is bad, second he is... a >WOMAN!!')
>Una
Why am I irresistibly reminded of a certain episode of Blackadder, that
involved Tom Baker, at this point?
Sorry.
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 09:26:36 EST
From: Joanne MacQueen <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990707232636.25191.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: AdamWho@aol.com
>Since Vila is my favorite character, it infuriated me whenever >Tarrant
>bullied him, grabbed him by the arm and jerked him to the >teleport area,
>pulled a gun on him, and treated him like garbage. I >never really liked
>Blake, but even Blake treated Vila with enough >kindness to not drag him
>around by the arm like a piece of meat.
Three cheers for Adam!
(An alternative to saying "me too". Though I do like Blake.)
Regards
Joanne
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Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 09:28:09 EST
From: Joanne MacQueen <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990707232809.43060.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: AdamWho@aol.com
>Or she was such an obnoxious, annoying twit Avon\Cally tried to >block her
>out of their memories as much as possible. I know I did.
See also Piri, perhaps?
Regards
Joanne
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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 16:57:28 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <3783E967.D11AFADA@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Joanne MacQueen wrote:
> mistral wrote (four times apparently - is it just me, or a problem at your
> end?)
> > > bonus - as Mistral says - of both being good at handling
> > > Avon. They could compare notes and gang up on him.
> >Or, contrariwise, Avon and Soolin could divide Blake up
> >and conquer him :) :) :)
Four times? Hmm. Well, I only sent it once.
> That very much depends on how long you think they could put up with one
> another if it wasn't necessary. If you think Soolin is that much like Avon,
> then there's the possibility that they might become rivals for Blake's
> attention.
That *is* possible, but IMHO unlikely. There are two usual
reactions to two people being a lot alike; one is that they rub
each other the wrong way, but the other is that they understand
each other rather better than other people, and come to mutual
respect. I think A-Soo is a case of the latter. They work well
together, and by mid-to-late season four seem to actually like
each other, IMHO.
She manages to challenge him without angering him, something
both Cally and Tarrant tried unsuccessfully to do. Her appeals
are based on reason and practicality, rather than sentiment,
morality, duty, or rivalry for leadership. Given more time, I think
she'd have become quite adept at bringing out his best impulses --
the way Blake did.
And I don't think she'd actually have much time for Blake.
Can't see her caring about him one way or the other, really. For
the most part, she'd probably hold herself aloof from a B-A
power struggle; but she'd *agree* with Avon, and *might* be
persuaded to help him because of it.
> Personally, I think in this circumstance, Avon would rather work
> on Blake with the help of someone a little more malleable, and I can't think
> of anyone that's likely to describe after Gauda Prime. Not even Vila, given
> what happened in Orbit.
I don't think Avon has any respect for people who are
'malleable'. He might use them as tools, but not as partners
or co-conspirators. IMHO it's the fact that she's as independent
as he is that makes her a suitable partner for him. If anything,
she's the more practical and self-contained of the pair of them.
Just IMHO,
Mistral
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 09:56:08 EST
From: Joanne MacQueen <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <19990707235608.13402.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
>Joanne MacQueen wrote:
Well, Mistral, actually. But your point still stands...
><Or perhaps I'm just prejudiced against people who are
>stupid or vain enough to wear spiked heels and formal
>gowns to go hiking?>
>Well, we don't see much more sensible footwear on Our
>Heroines, do we? (Sally's Fourth Rule of Blakes 7 - You
>Cannot Fight for Freedom in Sensible Flat Shoes. *That's*
>where Kasabi probably made her big mistake...)
<grin> Yes, and look what happened to Cally while she was wearing those
combat boots in her first episode - tricked by Blake and disarmed because of
it. Tsk, tsk!
Regards
Joanne
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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 17:06:05 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <3783EB6D.3612AF70@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
AdamWho@aol.com wrote:
> His writing for Avon was better than the rest of the characters, but I hated
> most of the dialogue. For Avon and everyone else. Since Vila is my favorite
> character,
Way cool, Adam.
> it infuriated me whenever Tarrant bullied him, grabbed him by the
> arm and jerked him to the teleport area, pulled a gun on him, and treated him
> like garbage.
Totally agree!!! But then Avon gets to defend poor Vila, and
I always like that part.
> I never really liked Blake, but even Blake treated Vila with
> enough kindness to not drag him around by the arm like a piece of meat.
Vila (and to a certain extent, everybody except Avon) was
simply one more tool for Blake's rebellion, and unless Blake
needed a lock opened or some grunt work done, generally
ignored. Whatever his flaws, I actually think that Tarrant
'saw' his other crewmates more clearly than Blake did --
whereas Blake saw Avon more clearly.
Just a thought...
Mistral
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 17:13:53 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <3783ED40.5DEC5439@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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AdamWho@aol.com wrote:
> Around the time of Seek-Locate-Destroy and Project Avalon, Servalan was a
> cliche. Entertaining, but still a cliche. As the series went on, she
> developed into a treacherous, fascinating, flawed character.
Hmm. I'd have said, she started out fairly realistic and turned
into a cartoon.
<snip>
> Which episode did she trip through quarries in? Volcano?
Sand, Games, Assassin, Gold....
> If it is, I agree
> with you, Servalan running around the terrain seemed idiotic, but almost
> everything in Volcano seemed idiotic.
Grrr. And you a Vila fan. Very nice Avon-Vila in Volcano.
For shame!
<wink>
Mistral
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 01:07:57 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <002c01bec8d6$30e05f80$0d01a8c0@hedge>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joanne asked:
> >I think it's entirely bad writing, to be honest. It's the laziest of
> >twists - Aha! The baddy was <ta da!> a WOMAN!!!! (As in 'Two things >must
> >you know about the baddy - first, he is bad, second he is... a >WOMAN!!')
> >Una
>
> Why am I irresistibly reminded of a certain episode of Blackadder, that
> involved Tom Baker, at this point?
Because my impressions are so spot on you can tell them over e-mail.
Una ;)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 10:32:17 EST
From: Joanne MacQueen <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990708003218.6889.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: mistral@ptinet.net
>I think A-Soo is a case of the latter. They work well
>together, and by mid-to-late season four seem to actually like
>each other, IMHO.
IM equally HO, I can't see this. But then, no matter how many times it's
explained, I can't see A/C either. (I can see A/S, but I'm not fond of the
mating habits of the female praying mantis, if it comes to that <grin>) So
they work well together? That's all they're doing, that I can see. No more.
So far as I'm concerned, all that speculation people were doing earlier
about the way Avon sees women applies quite well to Soolin - she's useful if
she works with him, but dangerous if she doesn't. Admittedly, Soolin has
never been a favourite of mine. I'd be far happier thinking of Avon and
Soolin as parallel lines - moving in the same direction but, of course,
never converging.
To digress a little, can I say that Avon's not mad in the fourth season,
just indifferent to the majority of things that might deflect him from
getting the Federation off his back?
Regards
Joanne
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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 18:05:36 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <3783F95F.579DCD2F@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Joanne MacQueen wrote:
> >From: mistral@ptinet.net
> >I think A-Soo is a case of the latter. They work well
> >together, and by mid-to-late season four seem to actually like
> >each other, IMHO.
>
> IM equally HO, I can't see this. But then, no matter how many times it's
> explained, I can't see A/C either.
Personally, I think A/C is the worst pairing for either of them.
But I meant A-Soo like (as in respect) each other, not romantic
interest at that point. I do think they're perfectly suited, but that
it would take a very long time, maybe years, to ripen.
> (I can see A/S, but I'm not fond of the
> mating habits of the female praying mantis, if it comes to that <grin>)
Yuk. Can't see that a bit. Avon *would* have to be mad to
do something that stupid. Or else become completely evil.
> So
> they work well together? That's all they're doing, that I can see. No more.
>
> So far as I'm concerned, all that speculation people were doing earlier
> about the way Avon sees women applies quite well to Soolin - she's useful if
> she works with him, but dangerous if she doesn't. Admittedly, Soolin has
> never been a favourite of mine. I'd be far happier thinking of Avon and
> Soolin as parallel lines - moving in the same direction but, of course,
> never converging.
That's a very pretty analogy, Joanne. Thing is, I think a proper
match is two people capable of walking side-by-side down the
same road. A/Soo fits that pretty well. (She also manages to
occasionally compensate for his weaknesses without threatening
his manhood -- a neat trick with Avon.)
> To digress a little, can I say that Avon's not mad in the fourth season,
> just indifferent to the majority of things that might deflect him from
> getting the Federation off his back?
Say on. I agree completely. I would call him a little stressed, though.
Grins,
Mistral
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 11:36:01 EST
From: Joanne MacQueen <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990708013601.85804.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: mistral@ptinet.net
>That's a very pretty analogy, Joanne. Thing is, I think a proper
>match is two people capable of walking side-by-side down the
>same road. A/Soo fits that pretty well.
Unfortunately, I cannot look at this nice little picture without becoming
convinced that one or both would take a side road at some point. I can see
her doing so because she's found something better than hanging around Xenon
base. Or hanging around Avon, if it comes to that.
Hang on a sec, not wanting to hang around dear old Avvy?
I'm wondering if it's just mental jaundice today, or am I becoming
disillusioned with Avon? (Yes, I know, heresy! <grin>)
Regards
Joanne
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Date: Wed, 07 Jul 1999 19:14:00 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <37840967.E837E5D4@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Joanne MacQueen wrote:
> >From: mistral@ptinet.net
> >That's a very pretty analogy, Joanne. Thing is, I think a proper
> >match is two people capable of walking side-by-side down the
> >same road. A/Soo fits that pretty well.
>
> Unfortunately, I cannot look at this nice little picture without becoming
> convinced that one or both would take a side road at some point. I can see
> her doing so because she's found something better than hanging around Xenon
> base. Or hanging around Avon, if it comes to that.
<grin> How lovely your illustrations are today!
Hmm. It's been my experience that two very independent
people who've been alone for some time can grow tired
of the complete isolation, find kindred spirits in each other,
and form a bond that pretty much shuts the rest of the
world out. [By which I mean to say that the bond itself
is impervious, not that they give up interacting with others.]
That kind of bond is love as commitment, not love as romance;
a safe place to leave your heart, as opposed to a dangerous
roller-coaster ride of untrustworthy feelings. We know that
Avon is capable of great commitment; I think that Soolin's
patient and tenacious avenging of her family indicates that she's
capable of it as well. If they managed to arrive at that commitment
before reaching a really interesting side road, they'd turn down it
together, or not at all.
I could easily see them developing an 'us against the universe'
mentality -- which still wouldn't preclude them scrapping with
each other occasionally. <g> It would be fun for both of them!!!
> Hang on a sec, not wanting to hang around dear old Avvy?
>
> I'm wondering if it's just mental jaundice today, or am I becoming
> disillusioned with Avon? (Yes, I know, heresy! <grin>)
Oh, I vote for the mental jaundice. <hug>
Mistral
--
"We all have something to hide, and we all have something to tell;
we all have a secret name; we all have a secret question--
one question that unlocks our heart."--Galen, 'Crusade'
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 20:51:27 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990517.210827.10262.0.Rilliara@juno.com>
On Wed, 07 Jul 1999 04:30:55 -0700 mistral@ptinet.net writes:
>
>
>Sally Manton wrote:
>
>> Mistral wrote:
>>
>> <And he continues to display this blind spot, up until at least
>Assassin,
>> wherein he goes about a long description of Cancer: 'he' this, 'he'
>that,
>> every sentence or phrase starting with 'he', and Avon never stops to
>think
>> that Cancer might be a woman, and indeed that might be why she's
>gone
>> undetected so long.>
Maybe this isn't the first time Piri's used a front man. While no one
knows who Cancer is, she may have gone to a great deal of effort to plant
false information so people think they know something about him/her.
The real plot oversight was letting Servalan know about her. The most
successful and secretive assasin in the business has got to realize Sleer
(let alone Servalan) is a potential target and _not_ someone she wants to
know anything about her true identity.
Ellynne
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Date: Mon, 17 May 1999 21:08:23 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Servalan
Message-ID: <19990517.210827.10262.1.Rilliara@juno.com>
On Wed, 7 Jul 1999 01:53:02 EDT AdamWho@aol.com writes:
>In a message dated 99-07-06 12:18:23 EDT, mistral@ptinet.net writes:
>
><< <sigh> As far as I am concerned, they completely ruined Cally;
> they took a passionate freedom fighter and turned her into a
> whining wimp. >>
>
>Our interpretations of Cally are very different. I honestly think
>Cally was
>more talk than action in her first episodes. She let Blake get the
>best of
>her very easily in Time Squad when he took away her gun, not something
>an
>intelligent freedom fighter would do. I think Cally was a naive Auron
>who
>joined with the freedom fights on Saurian Major,
Cally was naive in some ways, but I don't think it extended to her
abilities as a freedom fighter. Given the trauma she'd been through of
seeing everyone she knew on the planet die gruesome deaths (the plague
was made by the Federation, so we know it was gruesome) which she was
unable to do anything about (while her level of medical training is
unclear, her identical twin is a high ranking obstetrician and I'm
assuming there was some reason why she was always running things in
sickbay other than her bedside manner. She could at least function as a
frontline medic and may have been the only person in her group of freedom
fighters with any such training). The likely aftermath, with Cally
probably trying to give some sort of burial or last rites to a large
number of dead or (perhaps emotionally worse for her) being unable to do
so and having to leave her friends bodies to the elements and scavengers
(am I the only one totally grossed out at this picture?), could have
caused shell shock or worse.
Add to that the possibility she may have been without food and/or water
for some time and she has to have incredible inner strength just to be
standing upright, let alone ambushing people (however unsuccessfully).
This said, I'm also one of the few people who thought she was better
developed in the third season.
Ellynne
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Date: Thu, 08 Jul 1999 15:34:23 EST
From: Joanne MacQueen <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Soolin (was Servalan)
Message-ID: <19990708053423.37197.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: mistral@ptinet.net
> > >That's a very pretty analogy, Joanne. Thing is, I think a proper
> > >match is two people capable of walking side-by-side down the
> > >same road.
<clutching head in mild pain> Image, given my previous suggestions, of a
cheerful looking Avon striding down the path, singing, "I'll take the high
road and you'll take the low road, and I'll be at Xenon afore ye". Ouch.
Don't need that at the moment.
> > Hang on a sec, not wanting to hang around dear old Avvy?
> > I'm wondering if it's just mental jaundice today, or am I becoming
> > disillusioned with Avon? (Yes, I know, heresy! <grin>)
>Oh, I vote for the mental jaundice. <hug>
I think I've given myself mental indigestion into the bargain <groan>
Regards
Joanne
(roll on July 30, so I can have some annual leave!)
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Date: Thu, 8 Jul 1999 02:32:50 EDT
From: AdamWho@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Ben Steed the misogynist (was: Servalan)
Message-ID: <f29129b.24b5a012@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 99-07-07 20:05:14 EDT, mistral@ptinet.net writes:
<< > His writing for Avon was better than the rest of the characters, but I
hated
> most of the dialogue. For Avon and everyone else. Since Vila is my favorite
> character,
Way cool, Adam. >>
I didn't care for him in the first one or two episodes. After Cygnus Alpha, I
began to like him, but not as much as Jenna or Avon. By early season 2, he
was my favorite. I realized he was the most realistic and human of any of the
crew. He's one of the only things that kept my interest during certain season
2 episodes (Killer, Hostage, etc.). It helps that Michael Keating gave such
consistently fine performances. He made Vila the underdog.
Since my favorite after Vila is Servalan, I guess that means my taste in B7
characters is very diverse. From a coward to a woman who could kill with her
bare hands <g>.
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #210
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