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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 148
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)
Fwd: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)
[B7L] Test
[B7L] To Mistral especially - re Curious things in Star One (long)
Re: [B7L] To Mistral especially - re Curious things in Star One (long)
[B7L] Who's 7 pix
Fwd: [B7L] Test
Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)
Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)
Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)
Re: [B7L] The Keeper and controlling Star One
Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Re: Re [B7L] Who killed Anna Grant?
[B7L] Re: Videos
Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Re: Re [B7L] Who killed Anna Grant?
[B7L] New zines? Conventions?
RE: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Fwd: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 02:16:03 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)
Message-ID: <19990427091618.97128.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Mistral writes:
<Avon is intelligent, well educated, and believes 'all knowledge is
valuable'; and the cyclic nature of history is one of that subject's
basics. He'd have to be a fool to have forgotten it; and he and Blake
have probably discussed that very subject.>
Again, I don't see it. Avon is certainly the most intelligent member
of the crew, I agree would be well read (about anything that
*interests* him) and believes, as you say 'all *knowledge* is
valuable'. Knowledge being facts (remember, we're talking about a
computer expert, a pragmatic, mechanically minded man). Historical
theorising, no matter how well grounded, wouldn't interest him.
Also, given we're talking about a totalitarian dictatorship here, any
study of history would be fairly warped, so neither Blake nor Avon
could trust even the facts as they knew it. On my understanding of
both characters, Blake would try to *get* at the truth (no easy matter
with the sliding, subjective, interpretive complications of historical
study), and Avon would quickly realise that (a) it was warped and
untrustworthy and (b) therefore of no practical value, and therefore
ignore it.
<Yes, Blake's thought about it; that's not, IMHO, the same thing as
seeing (really grasping) the consequences.>
Again, no proof whatsover that he *doesn't* grasp the consequences. I
think he does, and also the consequences of *not* doing anything.
Which IMO are *on the internal evidence* considerably worse than you
seem to think.
The alternative is a continuation of drugged slavery (you're surely
not suggesting that people in that position have any *ability* to
choose freely?) brutal oppression (like the people of Albion had the
choice between being ground into total poverty or genocide),
enslavement as a political weapon, abuse of people's minds, both the
rebellious and the innocent (those children whose minds were tampered
with) systematic murder (as I said, the Federation's doing a fine job
killing off everyone and anyone who wants to put forward any ideas at
all about their *own* freedom).
I think Cally's being a hypocrite. She accepted his right to kill in
the pursuit of freedom for two years - she's been first and foremost
behind every single mission, bloody or not. She is and always has been
as if not more fanatical than he was. And Blake shows *enormous*
restraint by not reminding her rather pointedly of this.
<It is completely egotistical for Blake to believe that he has the
right to decide to spend all those lives for *his* idea of freedom.
I'm not, generally speaking, in favor of rebellion, but even in a case
that I would be, I don't think that five people are enough to make
that decision.>
He should send out for a postal ballot? <g> After all, these five
people are the only ones *in* a position to do anything. And by *not*
destroying Star One, he would be equally making a decision, that none
of those people have the right to their own lives anyway. Because
*that is what the Federatation -like any totalitarian dictatorship -
is about. And make no mistake, plenty of lives are being lost or
ground into nothing as it stands.
It's not *his* idea of freedom that Blake is pursuing, it's *any*
idea. What freedom do you see as acceptable under the Federation? The
evidence in the series is that the *majority* of people were oppressed
(for example, see Earth in The Way Back, Saurian Major in Time Squad,
Albion in Countdown). The tactics used in all of these places are
efficient and very clearly smack of experience, so we can assume that
there are a lot of worlds with drug programs, with the equivalent of
solium bombs enforcing savage exploitation, with massacres great and
small.
<And however many people die, and whatever the relative degree of
freedom involved, there are going to be people for and against.>
And the evidence of the series is that there are a huge number of
people unable even to make that simple decision, and a great number
*for*, who can do absolutely nothing about it. They're helpless. Star
One is a large part of the reason they're helpless. Star One is an
instrument of oppression. You are assuming that all these people
should have a choice. Sure they should. But they *don't* under the
present government, they don't even have the right to think about a
choice. Destroying the Federation is the only way they are going to
*have* that choice.
I'm not saying what Blake decides to do isn't ruthless. He knows what
he's doing. He knows people are going to get hurt, are going to die.
He knows if he *doesn't* destroy Star One, "many, many people" will
die at the hands of the Federation anyway. Possibly more. Certainly
millions will suffer. I see the difference here as Blake, knowing that
there is going to be bloodshed and misery - and with no proof that it
will be worse or better whichever way he goes - is prepared to take
the responsibilty, the blame, on himself in order to at least try to
make things better for the majority. He's got far more raw courage
than Cally, who knows all this just as well as he does, but is
suddenly hit with qualms about having blood on *her* hands rather than
Servalan's.
<Each person has a different idea of what they would die for, and a
different idea of what freedom really means. I would sacrifice my
life, I think, for my SO. I would not, however, give it up voluntarily
simply to retain my nationality.>
But in the Federation, you would not be given the luxury of deciding
what freedoms you would like to sacrifice your life or anything else
for. You seem to be assuming that luxury is available in the
Federation, and that Blake is taking it away. *No* such luxury is
available (ask the Albians), you can't even be guaranteed survival if
you collaborate. Blake is trying to give them the only choice they
*can* have. Some. Not as much as you think he should, but more than
they have now.
<Some people would die before accepting almost any infringement of
their freedom; others would even accept slavery in order to stay
alive, believing that while you are alive, you still have a chance of
something better. >
So the people who want to be slaves (or are happy for others to be
enslaved - or murdered - for their benefit) should take precedence
over those who are suffering? Because if you say that rebellion
against the Federation - the destruction of a brutal totalitarian
dictatorship - is only justified if everyone who benefits from the
oppression agrees, then that appears to be the case.
<IMHO, Avon *might* be one of the latter, much as he'd hate slavery;
he's certainly willing to go to great lengths to stay alive...>
Nope. See Sargophagus. "Make me die. There's nothing else you can make
me do." The one person who he's granted that privilege to (ironically
in view of this discussion) is Blake.
<Thus, he'd not think highly of someone who assumed the right to make
such a decision for others, or of those who followed such a person.
Blake is willing to make those decisions; Avon has questioned and
argued with him repeatedly about it, and equally shown contempt of
those who'd follow him.>
He's argued about methods and dangers. About the possibility of
success. Not about the goal in itself. And he *has* followed, and
admitted it openly. He thinks very highly of Blake. That's part of the
problem.
<He doesn't think popular opinion would turn on Blake then, so why
should it do so later?>
<Possibly because there's been hard evidence in the interim of just
how much destruction and havoc is
actually going to be caused by the destruction of Star One.>
Proof, please? They don't know about what’s happening on planets that
is due to Star One breaking down - they don't know that Star One *is*
breaking down. And by the discussion between Servalan and Durkim, it
is the faulty computer signals coming from Star One that are causing
havoc. The weather problems don't appear to me to be a reversion to
natural conditions, but massive unnatural disasters - caused
presumably by mixed signals. It's quite arguable that, now that it's
starting to get out of control, the galaxy will suffer less if it's
put out of commission. Sorry, but IMO the only justification for this
idea of 'further evidence' is that it will make Blake look bad. Not
good enough without proof.
<Must disagree here (are you surprised <g>); he was *never* for it; he
was just interested in staying alive and staying on Liberator till he
could get control of it (apart from having become rather comfy there,
sort of like a home and family).>
Oh, he was all for it *because* he'd get the Liberator. And he's all
for it now because he will get shot of 'it'.
<For the most part I agree; you have, I think, misunderstood what I
said. He thinks Blake has a right to lead any sheep who will follow
him...>
"I will continue to follow"...and he does, right up until the last
minute.
<Interestingly enough, however, I know somebody who drew the
conclusion on the first viewing that Avon was the one who had the far
more admirable position; like me, however, she doesn't believe either
in revolutions or in making decisions about *other* people's lives, or
letting them make decisions about hers.>
So she thinks that governments should be allowed to oppress, murder,
abuse etc? I don't think for one minute that's what she meant. I think
what you are both doing is (again) assuming that the Federation is
somehow a far more benign or popularly supported dictatorship than the
evidence from the series allows, that you and she would have more
chance of being allowed that freedom of choice than I think at all
warranted.
Are you saying you believe that people have the ability to make these
decisions for themselves better under the rule of Space Command and
Star One? *No one has it*. They have drugs, they have murders, they
have extortion based on the threat of genocide, they have *real*
enslavement if they step out of line or get in the way of the
powers-that-be (Marriott).
Let me ask you a question. In the Federation (as I've said) there's
not a skerrick of proof that the oppressors had any popular support
outside their own ranks (I think it's just assumed by people who want
to think that Avon has turned bleeding heart all of a sudden, or want
to bash Blake). In Nazi Germany the oppressors had a *lot* of support
from the average citizen, who could ignore the ugly realities of what
was happening to a huge number of innocents because he was happy.
Their comfort and happiness was built on the concentration camps. And
there was *no way* to help the suffering except by destroying the
average citizen's comfortable dictatorship.
By your friend's arguments, the people who supported Hitler because
they were comfortable had as much - no, more - right to *keep* their
dictatorship (and to hell with the consequences for the rest) as the
resisters had to try and destroy it. I cannot agree. I think the
rights of the oppressed do have to have weight. Revolution is not
always justified, but sometimes it's the only way to destroy something
evil. (And BTW, the right to make those decisions that you and your
friend rightly feel is important were born in other revolutions. It's
fatally easy to discount what you've never had to live without.) The
Federation is evil, and there is *no* other way to remove it but
destruction. Even the reluctant rebel Avon works that last one out in
the end.
<It really does depend on whether you find Blake's ideals or Avon's
ideals more appealing; and Avon *does* have ideals, although it might
not look it to a person more inclined to put the group above the
individual, as Blake is.>
I find your thinking muddled. Of course Avon has ideals, they just
don't come into this question, because what Blake is doing is trying
to free a huge number of people - each an individual, each suffering -
that Avon couldn't give a damn about. Blake at least acknowledges that
the general population - the hoi polloi, "people he doesn’t even
know", people who are you and me, whether we want to admit it or not -
should have some rights over their own lives. That *they* are
individuals, and he should care about them. Avon may agree with that -
if he was pushed - but he doesn't care. Really. He can only care about
people he knows, and only a few of them.
Blake cares both about individuals (like his crew - he compromised his
attempt to bargain for the Decima's lives when it endangered Avon)
*and* groups. (What is a group but a number, small or large, of
individuals, whether you know them or not? And because you treasure
your own individuality, does that mean it has precedence over their
suffering?)
<it doesn't necessarily follow that individualists are amoral
bastards; they just try to mind their own business in the hopes that
others will show them the same respect.>
That's fine in a stable and comfortable democracy like our own. In a
vicious and murderous totalitarian democracy (and I think I've given
you enough examples) it is something of a cop-out (which I admit I
would probably use myself - I do not have Blake's ruthlessness,
courage or heart), and Avon is far too intelligent and honest to think
for one moment that the powers-that-be are going to show him or anyone
else such respect. He knows that there *is* no such thing in a
dictatorship as 'your own business'.
Both Blake and Avon are more than aware that that being an individual
is a luxury. A luxury they can indulge because they lucked out and
found the Liberator. A luxury that far too many people, for far too
many years, have not been allowed to even dream of, let alone have.
Ermmm...JMHO??? Hopping off the soap-box now (BTW, I've recently been
reading diaries of people from 1930s Stalinist Russia, which may
explain a lot of the above...)
Sally
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 02:27:34 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <19990427092735.33388.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
I really have to stop maundering in epic length, and at the minute I
can't think of much else *I* should say (of course, that never stopped
me before)...but just one point Mistral made:
<And the other point that I was trying to make is that refusing to be
involved in the whole messy thing doesn't make Avon a complete git;
nor does it mean he doesn't care about humanity; he was willing enough
to fight the Andromedans.>
Avon? A git? Bite your tongue...no, he is (of course)totally wonderful
in his own (cough) unique way. But he doesn't care about humanity. He
cares about a few individuals. Blake is one of them. And the reason he
fights the Andromedans because Blake asked him to.
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Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 03:34:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Borg <peter_borg@yahoo.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <19990427103437.424.rocketmail@web608.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Here's something to think on... Cally's line "That you
were right?" - the emphasis was on the 'you'.
Maybe she was questioning Blake taking the
responsibility for all they had done together upon
himself, rather than questioning his motive for
destroying Star One.....
Peter.
===
--
Peter Borg
peter_borg@yahoo.com
_________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 11:32:45 +0100
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)
Message-ID: <003101be9099$668f0e80$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Mistral writes:
<Avon is intelligent, well educated, and believes 'all knowledge is
valuable'; and the cyclic nature of history is one of that subject's
basics. He'd have to be a fool to have forgotten it; and he and Blake
have probably discussed that very subject.>
The cyclic nature of history is a very tendentious theory. It's not a piece
'knowledge'. There's quite a big difference. You imply that 'there is no
point in fighting the system' is a fact.
I think 'progress' is a myth if you take it to mean 'things must improve
whatever happens'. The passage of time doesn't mean that things must
improve. But 'progress' is a valid concept if you take it to mean 'things
can be improved from how they are now'.
How far it is valid to use force to bring about these improvements, and in
what circumstances, I have no idea. I don't believe a moral consensus is
even on the horizon.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 03:35:45 PDT
From: "Stephen Date" <stephendate@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Test
Message-ID: <19990427103546.64331.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Hi to those of you who read the tests !
Just checking as my posts seem not to be turning up.
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Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 03:48:14 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: mistral@ptinet.net
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] To Mistral especially - re Curious things in Star One (long)
Message-ID: <19990427104814.13029.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Mistral -
In my opus-length last posting, I hope I didn't offend you when I said
I found a part of your argument (well, I did use the word 'thinking')
muddled. I *did* think the argument was muddled, but then so are some
of mine (so are *lots* of mine) and I’ve realised that the way I put
that sentence could be seen as patronising at best and possibly
hurtful.
Please take it from me that I usually find your arguments very good
(even when I disagree with them, as in this instance) and I *did not*
mean to disparage in any way.
Friends? Please?
Sally
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Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 04:14:30 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
CC: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] To Mistral especially - re Curious things in Star One (long)
Message-ID: <37259C16.1DD478E0@ptinet.net>
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Sally Manton wrote:
> Mistral -
> I *did not*
> mean to disparage in any way.
>
> Friends? Please?
Sally, you are my good friend and I have always enjoyed
chatting with you on- and off-list. I have not been offended
by anything at all that you said; I simply infer that the subject
is near to your heart (as it is to mine). I am not, as a rule,
easily offended by spirited debate; and I quite like to have
my errors corrected and learn new things; for example,
today I have (thanx to Iain) had to go and look up the
word epicycles.
Besides which, my thinking frequently appears (and
sometimes is) muddled; I am constantly frustrated
by my own inability to express my ideas clearly. It is
a wonder to be holding said discussion at all! <smile>
E-mail is a tricksy medium, is it not?
Grins,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 12:18:08 +0100
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>, Space City <space-city@world.std.com>
CC: Diane Gies <diane@horizon.org.uk>,
Paula Robinson <Paula.Robinson@RCN.ORG.UK>,
Redemption <redemption@smof.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [B7L] Who's 7 pix
Message-ID: <37259CEF.EAD40107@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
There are now some pix from Who's 7 in 1996 up on my web page.
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson
"What is it with you and holes?"
Xena to Gabrielle, Paradise Found
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 04:37:09 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: [B7L] Test
Message-ID: <19990427113713.76036.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Stephen wrote:
<Hi to those of you who read the tests ! Just checking as my
posts seem not to be turning up.>
You'd think after Neil's earlier effort (that suckered me good and
proper) I'd learn...
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Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 04:47:46 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)
Message-ID: <3725A3E2.7CB669E9@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Alison wrote:
> Mistral writes:
> <Avon is intelligent, well educated, and believes 'all knowledge is
> valuable'; and the cyclic nature of history is one of that subject's
> basics. He'd have to be a fool to have forgotten it; and he and Blake
> have probably discussed that very subject.>
>
> The cyclic nature of history is a very tendentious theory. It's not a piece
> 'knowledge'. There's quite a big difference. You imply that 'there is no
> point in fighting the system' is a fact.
I suppose I'll have to take it from everybody else as atheory. When I was in
school it was simply accepted as
reality. It certainly looks logical on the evidence.
I also suppose I must have been taking for granted that
Avon, Liberator's resident cynic, would of course take
the rather usual cynic's view of 'it doesn't really matter
because nothing ever changes.' I really do think that's a
view he's fairly likely to hold.
> I think 'progress' is a myth if you take it to mean 'things must improve
> whatever happens'. The passage of time doesn't mean that things must
> improve. But 'progress' is a valid concept if you take it to mean 'things
> can be improved from how they are now'.
You're right, of course.I must be too cynical to thinkof this. <g>
> How far it is valid to use force to bring about these improvements, and in
> what circumstances, I have no idea. I don't believe a moral consensus is
> even on the horizon.
In the B7 universe, on the list, or in reality? <g> Goodness,
Alison, I wish you'd said this sooner. As we on the list and
in reality can't all agree, why should Blake's crew?
It's funny, though. Neil says Avon's willing to shoulder
the moral responsibility; Sally says he doesn't care about
the moral responsibility; I suggest that he might have a
different idea of what's moral, and Blam! <snicker> I do
seem to have an unwished-for talent of stimulating
controversy.
I think we'll have to get you a gavel, Alison.
Salud,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 13:44:29 +0100
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "B7 List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)
Message-ID: <004c01be90ab$e1dfcae0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Me and Mistral
>> The cyclic nature of history is a very tendentious theory. It's not a
piece
>> 'knowledge'. There's quite a big difference. You imply that 'there is no
>> point in fighting the system' is a fact.
>
>I suppose I'll have to take it from everybody else as atheory. When I was
in
>school it was simply accepted as
>reality
That's what I thought from how you said it. But then the question arises -
who sets up education so that kids are taught 'there's no point in trying to
change things'?
This cynicism thing just gets deeper and deeper :-)
> >How far it is valid to use force to bring about these improvements, and
in
> >what circumstances, I have no idea. I don't believe a moral consensus is
> >even on the horizon.
>In the B7 universe, on the list, or in reality? <g>
Well, there seems to be a certain amount of debate about this exact question
in the real world just at the moment doesn't there? All the columnists I
read are fighting madly amongst themselves about just wars and justified
rebellions.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 06:24:40 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (long)
Message-ID: <3725BA97.94F304D4@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Alison wrote:
> Me and Mistral
>
> >> The cyclic nature of history is a very tendentious theory. It's not a
> piece
> >> 'knowledge'. There's quite a big difference. You imply that 'there is no
> >> point in fighting the system' is a fact.
> >
> >I suppose I'll have to take it from everybody else as atheory. When I was
> in
> >school it was simply accepted as
> >reality
>
> That's what I thought from how you said it. But then the question arises -
> who sets up education so that kids are taught 'there's no point in trying to
> change things'?
>
> This cynicism thing just gets deeper and deeper :-)
Oh, you'll have to blame me for the cynicism, not the
educational system. I'm quite sure they never meant to
imply any such thing. It's probably due to the fact that
every time I read a news story I see more and more
parallels between the Federation and what the US is
becoming. But I'm not joining any rebellions <wink>.
Cheers,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:42:56 EDT
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Keeper and controlling Star One
Message-ID: <4a3555f8.245718e0@aol.com>
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In a message dated 4/26/99 8:07:58 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
mistral@ptinet.net writes:
> My humble suggestion -- perhaps he thought it might be saferand less messy
> than wading in blood -- and while Blake was
> controlling Star One, Avon could play with the Liberator.
I'm more inclined to think he was just probing the limits of Blake's
idealism, testing to find out if Blake would succumb to the temptation of
power. After all, if Blake *did* want to control Star One he would need Avon
immediately at hand more than ever, and would be far more likely to give the
Liberator to Jenna (who would not be so directly useful in controlling a
large computer complex).
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 09:42:55 EDT
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <89a8752e.245718df@aol.com>
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In a message dated 4/26/99 7:59:05 AM Mountain Daylight Time,
mistral@ptinet.net writes:
> It really does
> depend on whether you find Blake's ideals or Avon's
> ideals more appealing; and Avon *does* have ideals,
> although it might not look it to a person more inclined
> to put the group above the individual, as Blake is. Avon
> is an individualist; he wants to determine his own future;
> he's willing to let other people do the same, as long as
> they don't interfere with *his* freedom.
Well put, Mistral. My reaction to Blake is frequently "Who died and left YOU
in charge?", and sometimes I think Avon might see him that way too. <grin>
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 01:42:10 -0700
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Who killed Anna Grant?
Message-ID: <19980314.015056.10030.0.Rilliara@juno.com>
On Mon, 26 Apr 1999 04:03:12 -0700 mistral@ptinet.net writes:
>
>
>Neil Faulkner wrote:
>
>> >Mistral wrote:
>> >Have just gone back and run this in slow-motion to be sure;
>> >when Cally gives her warning, we are looking at Avon's
>> >face; but when the shot cuts out to Avon and Anna, Anna
>> >definitely going for her gun, bringing it out and up to firing
>> >position.
>>
>> Which suggests that it was Cally's shout that impelled Anna to draw,
>which
>> has always been my impression. But I don't think we can be sure
>that she
>> was planning to draw before Cally shouted.
>
>I'll concede that's remotely possible, but it's too big a
>stretch for me to find it believable. That's not Cally's style;
>apart from which, Anna's gun is concealed in her pocket
>(which is, inconveniently, well down the leg of her trousers),
>while Avon's is in a holster ready to be drawn. To me, it
>simply looks as if she's having difficulty getting her gun out,
>and Cally's taken advantage of that difficulty.
>
It may also be that, as Cally's a telepath who can occassionally pick up
on flashes of emotion or thought from nontelepath's, she didn't see Anna
trying to draw (in which case she should have pulled her own gun [what
can I say? I'm tired of those movie 'heroines' who stand around and
scream while the hero fights to stay alive, especially when there's a gun
in reach]) but if she had only felt sudden, deadly intent, she might have
naturally cried out a warning without shooting. After all, intent isn't
action, and Anna could have had a back up plan where killing her would
percipitate events (deadman's switch, etc.).
Ellynne
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:22:23 +0100
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
To: Harriet Monkhouse <H_F_Monkhouse@compuserve.com>
CC: Space City <space-city@world.std.com>, Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Videos
Message-ID: <3726005C.6EC80148@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
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Hi Harriet, you wrote:
> Do you happen to know when the next tape (ie Children of Auron) is due
> out?
According to TV Zone, the next two tapes both come out on 3 May (vol 17:
Children & Rumours, and vol 18: Sarcophagus & Ultraworld). Vols 19 & 20
are due on 20 June, vol 21 on 5 July, vols 22 & 23 on 6 Sept, vols 24 &
25 on 4 October and no date yet for vol 26.
I've copied this to the lists cos others might like that info.
TV Zone also says the Lexx videos are coming out soon in the UK,
yippee!!!!
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson
"What is it with you and holes?"
Xena to Gabrielle, Paradise Found
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:40:25 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0427184025-9eeRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Tue 27 Apr, Peter Borg wrote:
> Here's something to think on... Cally's line "That you
> were right?" - the emphasis was on the 'you'.
>
> Maybe she was questioning Blake taking the
> responsibility for all they had done together upon
> himself, rather than questioning his motive for
> destroying Star One.....
Anyone who has authority and does not accept responsibility is a moral coward.
If you give orders, surely you have to be prepared to accept responsibility for
the results?
Which isn't to say that those who obey orders are not also responsible.
Responsibility applies at all levels, but if psychology tells us nothing else,
it tells us that people have an innate tendency to follow orders from anyone who
seems to be in authority.
Judith
PS. Avon is one of those rare people who have enough independence of mind to be
able to question authority. Surprisingly few people do.
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 21:42:11 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0427204211-ab5Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Tue 27 Apr, mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>
>
> Judith Proctor wrote:
>
> > Well, I certainly don't see history as cyclic. Ancient Egyptian
> > civilisation lasted 3,000 years. I don't see British history as cyclic
> > either. The last fall to barbarism was when the Romans departed and that
> > was an awfully long time ago.
>
> Cycles don't have to be short; and they don't have to involve complete
> collapse of the civilization, either. Occasionally, it's just a matter of
> left-right pendulum swings, or successive rulers or parties having
> diametrically opposing policies.
What you actually mean <grin> is that it's essentially random within a general
set of bounds. Political parties may look diametrically opposed, but to an
outsider they can look almost identical. I remember my reaction on visiting
America once when I discovered that by American standards I was probably far
more left wing than either of your main parties, wheras at home, I'm a moderate.
>
> > Anyway, from Sarkof's surprise that Blake knew any natural history, it would
> > seem that most people were not educated about the past.
>
> Good point; but Blake had this knowledge; could it be it was just Alphas who
> had a broad-based general education? And the others were only educated in
> whatever field they slotted into? I wonder what (if any) legitimate trade Vila
> might be trained in?
I suspect Blake had an natural interest in the past. It's an interesting sign
of the time when Blake's 7 was written that that was almost the only
environmental reference I can recall. If it had been written now, there woudl
probably be far more on that score.
I have a gut feeling that most people had a narrow based education except for
some of he elite alphas.
Maybe Vila could be a locksmith...
> > While you have a valid point, how is it possible to conduct a referrendum
> > among a populace who are permenantly drugged?
>
> It wouldn't be, of course; but I never get the impression that *all*, or even
> most Federation citizens are permanently drugged to the point of
> insensibility. There wouldn't be anyone left to handle the work needed to keep
> society going; and if it was only the drugs keeping the population suppressed,
> the rebels would have made short work of the drug manufacturing and
> distribution systems, but we never hear of anything like that until Traitor
> and Warlord. There are certainly rebels on many of the worlds we are shown;
> surely that means that either not everybody is drugged, or that the drugs
> don't seriously hamper thought? Perhaps it was just at-risk individuals were
> drugged, and the food and water dispensers were programmed to recognized them
> by DNA or voice-print?
It's pretty clear from the first episode that everyone is drugged en masse,
except the higher grades like people working for the Justice Department. Most
people were drugged to the point where they just didn't care about anything.
They were capable of doing mundane jobs, but contemplating rebellion would have
been beyond them.
Active rebel groups were aware of the drugs and found ways round them, either by
going without food and drink at times when they needed to think (like Ravella
tod Blake to do) or finding their own supplies of uncontamianted food.
Scientists and the like would not have been drugged because they would need to
be altert for their work. I imagine the high grade alpahs got their food
and water from different sources to the lower grades, though they may not have
been aware of why. They may just have taken it for granted that the lower
grades were stupid (a bit like the attitude to Polish immigrants who did badly
on IQ tests. It wasn't because they were doing tests that depended on knowledge
of a foreign culture, it was because they were naturally stupid.)
>
> Anyway, it would be a little difficult to conduct a galaxy-wide referendum.
> <g> I think the point that I was trying to make is that it's one thing to
> choose rebellion for yourself and those following you, but it is a whole other
> order of magnitude to knowingly cause the deaths of innocents who may not
> support your cause, and who haven't been given a choice.
But surely the whole point is that they hadn't been given a choice?
I think Blake saw imself as trying to create a situation where they did have a
choice.
> That's what Blake is contemplating doing by destroying Star One. And the other
> point that I was trying to make is that refusing to be involved in the whole
> messy thing doesn't make Avon a complete git; nor does it mean he doesn't care
> about humanity; he was willing enough to fight the Andromedans. I was simply
> trying to show how it *is* possible for sane, intelligent people to have
> different ideas over what is appropriate to fight and die for. There *are*
> certain people and ideals that I would hope that I would be willing to
> sacrifice my own life for; but I would definitely resent being asked to risk
> my life for somebody else's ideals, that aren't mine (what Blake is expecting
> of Avon), and the list of things I would be prepared to sacrifice innocent,
> unsuspecting lives for is very short indeed.
I don't think Avon was being a git at all. I don't think he cares greatly about
humanity though. Not to say that he doesn't care at all, but I never saw it as
a major motivation of his.
Intelligent people frequently have different ideas over what is
right/appropriate. Defining 'right' is virtually impossible. Even when people
agree on that, they can't agree on what to do about it. We're probably all
agreed that the massacre of civilians in Kosovo is wrong, but what we will
donate to help them or what we consider should be done militarily will probably
vary widely.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:29:06 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re [B7L] Who killed Anna Grant?
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0427182906-965Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Sat 14 Mar, Ellynne G. wrote:
> It may also be that, as Cally's a telepath who can occassionally pick up
> on flashes of emotion or thought from nontelepath's, she didn't see Anna
> trying to draw (in which case she should have pulled her own gun [what
> can I say? I'm tired of those movie 'heroines' who stand around and
> scream while the hero fights to stay alive, especially when there's a gun
> in reach]) but if she had only felt sudden, deadly intent, she might have
> naturally cried out a warning without shooting. After all, intent isn't
> action, and Anna could have had a back up plan where killing her would
> percipitate events (deadman's switch, etc.).
Oh, I like that one! I do so love it when someone comes up with an
interpretation that I've never thought of before, especially when it makes
sense.
It not only explains why she warned Avon rather than drawing her own gun, it
also makes consistent use of her telepathy as we know she can pick up strong
emotions on occasion.
It even explains how she anticipated Anna's draw rather than Anna's gun sticking
in the holster.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 19:03:51 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: space-city@world.std.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] New zines? Conventions?
Message-ID: <ded432d2.24579c57@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I'm working on the next issue of ON THE WING, the Tarrant APA. If anyone has
anything they'd like listed in the information column (upcoming zines, zines
seeking submissions, conventions, etc.), please let me know by Friday.
Thanks.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 07:20:05 +0200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99F10FBB5@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
Content-Type: text/plain
Judith wrote:
> Scientists and the like would not have been drugged because they would
> need to
> be altert for their work. I imagine the high grade alpahs got their food
> and water from different sources to the lower grades, though they may not
> have
> been aware of why. They may just have taken it for granted that the lower
> grades were stupid (a bit like the attitude to Polish immigrants who did
> badly
> on IQ tests. It wasn't because they were doing tests that depended on
> knowledge
> of a foreign culture, it was because they were naturally stupid.)
>
In Weapon, Avon says something about the guy who invented Imipak being
unusually bright for a Beta. And said guy (don't remember his name just now)
is very resentful all the time because he's so often looked down on by the
alpha's. So this makes very good sense to me.
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:30:12 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <19990428053012.56749.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Humble apologies to Sally, who will receive this twice by mistake...
Sally:
>I really have to stop maundering in epic length, and at the minute I
>can't think of much else *I* should say (of course, that never stopped
>me before)...but just one point Mistral made:
No, I'm not commenting, I'm complaining <mock threatening> The both of you have triggered a filking fit on the subject of a certain unhappy couple's differences in attitude to life and liberty, and I'm not happy! And at work, too, aarrgghh!! <grin> I hope you are ashamed of yourselves.
<groan> Never start with the second verse, ever...
Tormented,
(until I get this out of my head)
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 22:42:38 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <19990428054242.36371.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Joanne complained:
<mock threatening> The both of you have triggered a filking fit on
the subject of a certain unhappy couple's differences in attitude to
life and liberty, and I'm not happy! And at work, too, aarrgghh!!
<grin>
Ooooh. Hey Mistral we've turned into Joanne's Muses or something!!!
<I hope you are ashamed of yourselves.>
Utterly and grovellingly. Now tell more. Like when do we all get
to hear it??
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1999 23:02:40 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <19990428060240.93451.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Sally wrote:
>Ooooh. Hey Mistral we've turned into Joanne's Muses or something!!!
It's a thankless task <smile>
>Utterly and grovellingly. Now tell more. Like when do we all get
>to hear it??
Like the Sistine Chapel, when it is finished.
Regards
Distracted
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 1999 01:16:39 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: [B7L] Curious things in Star One (potential spoilers)
Message-ID: <3726C3E7.B285339D@ptinet.net>
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Sally wrote:
> Ooooh. Hey Mistral we've turned into Joanne's Muses or something!!!
Dibs on Erato. <beatific smile>
Joanne wrote:
> <I hope you are ashamed of yourselves.>
Sorry, no. As an individualist, I stand by my conviction
that you are responsible for your own actions, even those
influenced by Muses and other supernatural creatures.
<veg>
Mistral the Erratic, er... Erotic, er... Ersomething
--
"Anything's possible when you're as insane as I obviously am."--Soolin
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End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #148
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