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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 132
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Attack of the Space Bimbos (was Sleazy Vila)
Re: [B7L] Worst Openings
Re: [B7L] Attack of the Space Bimbos (was Sleazy Vila)
Re: Avon [B7L] the Sunbeam?
Re: [B7L] Avon's promises
[B7L] OT: Cherryh books (was Attack...
Re: [B7L] Avon's promises
[B7L] New website
Re: [B7L] New website
Re: OT: BACs (was Re: [B7L] Worst Openings)
Re: [B7L] OT: Cherryh books (was Attack...
Re: [B7L] OT: Cherryh books (was Attack...
Re: OT: BACs (was Re: [B7L] Worst Openings)
[B7L] B7 telemovie
[B7L] Re: Blood feuds
Re: [B7L] Avon's promises
Re: OT: BACs (was Re: [B7L] Worst Openings)
PiC Rant (was Re: [B7L] Sleazy Vila)
Re: [B7L] Attack of the Space Bimbos (was Sleazy Vila)
[B7L] Re: Blood feuds
[B7L] New B7 Zine
Re: OT: BACs (was Re: [B7L] Worst Openings)
Re: [B7L] Attack of the Space Bimbos (was Sleazy Vila)
[B7L] re:attack of the space bimbos
[B7L] re:sleazy vila
[B7L] Re:Sleazy Vila
[B7L] re:the synedton experiment
[B7L] Re: Sleazy Vila
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:44:02 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Attack of the Space Bimbos (was Sleazy Vila)
Message-ID: <37144741.29F75BB7@ptinet.net>
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Neil wrote:
> The depressing thing is, any attempt to pull a character out of one
> particular pigeonhole almost inevitably only succeeds in filing her under
> another one. I'm not sure I can see any way out of this.
You could try calling them archetypes instead of pigeonholes :)
Good characterization is difficult to do on television, IMHO,
particularly with more than one or two characters in a 50-minute
show with action- instead of emotion-driven plots. Even in a
novel you've got three levels of characterization; the protagonist
and possibly a couple of others are well-rounded and highly
developed, the secondary characters are somewhat flatter, and the
rest are so flat they're cardboard. (This isn't laziness on the
part of the writer; the reader simply doesn't have the time or
interest in learning all about characters who are the novelistic
equivalent of messengers.) So in television, the first two or
three names after the credits are the ones who get the development.
That hardly gives Dayna and Soolin a chance, although they really
screwed up with Jenna.
Apart from that, most of the scriptwriters were men, and it really
*is* harder to write for the opposite gender -- since B7 scripts
were turned out at such a clip (TV scripts generally are), there
probably wasn't much time to sit and think things through.
I think I'll have to object to the description of Soolin as a
'cold bitch' though -- not because it offends me, but because I
think it's inaccurate. I'd call her reserved, or even cool, but
not cold; and she never displays any behaviour that I could
remotely agree could be called bitchy. She helps out Zeeona and
Tarrant, is quite comradely with Dayna, teases Vila, works quite
well with Avon -- as far as I can tell, the only thing this
character really suffers from is lack of development; she wasn't
even given any real flaws. You can hardly call her a cold bitch
because she avenged her family; that would make a male character
in this kind of series a hero.
As for Ripley, they did try to give her more dimensions -- a
maternal side in Aliens, self-sacrifice in Alien3; but a female
character can't be all things to all people any more than a male
character can.
I'm (quite sincerely) certain you'd never deliberately do this,
but it *almost* sounds as if you're making the stereotypical male
conclusion that *strong woman who doesn't need man* = *frigid
emasculating evil pseudo-woman*.
Still, Soolin, Ripley, etc., are an improvement from the women
in John Norman's Gor novels, don't you think? <snicker>
With regard to writing for the opposite gender: I'd be interested
in knowing if any guys on this list have read C. J. Cherryh's
Morgaine books, and what they think of the male viewpoint
character, Vanye. Is he believable or not, and do you admire him?
(Morgaine is frequently cited as a strong female character in
fantasy, I'm wondering how well Cherryh did with the male sidekick.)
TTFN,
Mistral
--
"A man's just a man, when all's said and done."--Piri
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:57:42 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Worst Openings
Message-ID: <37144A75.828F5E16@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Adam wrote:
> "Now to the big question. Orac, do you take K9 to be your lawfully wedded
> robot dog?"
Hahahahahahahahahahahhaha............
Mistral
--
"There might be problems."--Orac
------------------------------
Date: 14 Apr 1999 12:42:26 +0200
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Attack of the Space Bimbos (was Sleazy Vila)
Message-ID: <usyajvsctp.fsf@sara.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
mistral@ptinet.net writes:
> With regard to writing for the opposite gender: I'd be interested in
> knowing if any guys on this list have read C. J. Cherryh's Morgaine
> books,
Repeatedly.
> and what they think of the male viewpoint character, Vanye. Is he
> believable or not, and do you admire him?
Reasonably believable. More so than some of the B7 characters, I
think. He's far to unsure and indecisive to be admireable, though.
> Morgaine is frequently cited as a strong female character in fantasy
Which has always fascinated me somewhat. She's certainly strong, but
she's also a paranoid psychopath. I do know a few women who'd like her
as a role model, but they're not many.
--
Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
This posting is protected by a Whizzo Brand Fnord Filter (TM).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 01:12:10 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Avon [B7L] the Sunbeam?
Message-ID: <19990414081210.51050.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
To my:
<Yes, (as usual, immediately grasping the all-important issues here)
wouldn't he look *wonderful* in the red robes???>
Ellyne answered:
<Yes, but wouldn't he take all those vows seriously and REFUSE TO
DATE???? This could be a serious problem.>
Eeep.Yes. Look but don't touch is all very well...any suggestions on
how to corrupt him away from his vows(or should this go to the Other List?)
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:02:55 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's promises
Message-ID: <371475DF.DF5E410F@ptinet.net>
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Judith Proctor wrote:
> I've always seen Avon's sense of honour as being fairly important to him. He
> hates to make a promise, but if he does he'll try and keep it. (Think of
> Neebrox or his promise to Blake at Star One.)
>
> How far would this go?
Pretty much all the way, IMHO; which is one of the reasons he makes promises so
rarely. I really do think that keeping his word is tied in very closely to his
self-image; and people will go a long way to preserve their self-images. Think of
'Rumors': Avon: "I made a promise."
Dayna: "To Anna?"
Avon: "To me."
When you make a promise to yourself, you're both the only one who knows you made
the promise, and the only one who knows if you keep it. Even allowing for his
attachment to Anna, this would still be the easiest kind of promise to break. With
rare exceptions (such as Blake, and under some circumstances Cally), I don't think
Avon would be swayed by anyone else's opinion of him, either. And if you're keeping
the promise for yourself, it wouldn't matter if the person were going to be dead
tomorrow, or even dead already.
Reading the rest of your post, what I found myself asking myself is why he made
this promise at all. It doesn't appear to be the crux of your story, or surely
you'd know whether or not he was going to keep it. Are you *absolutely* sure that
he would have done? As for 'emotive circumstances', I can't see Avon being swayed
by such, unless the person was close enough to him that he would have kept the
promise no matter what. And I'm convinced that he measures what giving the promise
might cost him, including any risk to himself, before he promises. If he
miscalculated the cost, or forgot to consider it, he'd simply call himself an idiot
and go through with it anyway.
This might sound like I've got a very whitewashed view; but I just think this is
one of his very *few* absolutes. I cannot remember any episode wherein he broke his
word to either a friend or a neutral -- although if you betray him first, I think
all bets are off. Do you remember in 'Breakdown' how annoyed he was at Farren about
Kayn betraying the Liberator crew to the Federation? Farren did nothing to cause
his word to Avon to be broken; and yet because *Kayn* caused Farren's word to Avon
to be broken, Avon seemed to lose all respect for Farren. This makes it seem to me
that Avon considers that you are responsible for keeping your word even over
circumstances that go completely outside your control.
Since we have evidence of Avon keeping promises at some cost to himself, and no
cases AFAIK of him breaking them, then if you are quite certain that he would give
this promise, then IMHO you have to do just what Neil said -- Avon must do
something spectacular and unexpected and emerge nearly unscathed. And I'm not
intending this to be just a very long 'me, too', what I'm intending is to say that
I think he's *very* careful about giving his word, *because* he's going to keep it,
so I'd be sure that having him give it is justified.
Just IMHO,
Mistral
--
"I'm a man of my word. In the end that's all there is, really." --Avon
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:33:10 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] OT: Cherryh books (was Attack...
Message-ID: <37147CF5.6D2F72FB@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Calle Dybedahl wrote, re Vanye and Morgaine:
> Reasonably believable. More so than some of the B7 characters, I
> think. He's far to unsure and indecisive to be admireable, though.
<grin> I've always thought of Vanye as an example of great moral courage. He's
willing to go against a lifetime of religious conviction and sacrifice his
eternal soul for the good of all the universe. I'd say that would be a little
scary for anyone of a religious persuasion.
> > Morgaine is frequently cited as a strong female character in fantasy
>
> Which has always fascinated me somewhat. She's certainly strong, but
> she's also a paranoid psychopath. I do know a few women who'd like her
> as a role model, but they're not many.
Paranoid psychopath? You're not paranoid if they're actually *after you*, surely?
<g>
Actually, I've always enjoyed the books because I think both Morgaine and Vanye
are wonderful examples of absolute committment, which is an ideal that fascinates
me. The only books I've come to enjoy more are C.S. Friedman's 'Coldfire'
trilogy, which have a somewhat similar theme. (And no, that's not because some
people consider the two main characters in Friedman's books avatars for Blake and
Avon -- I was hooked on the 'Coldfire' books before I ever heard of Blakes 7.)
Thanks for your reply, Calle, but now I *really* can't help but wonder -- If you
think Vanye is too unsure and indecisive to be admirable, and Morgaine a paranoid
psychopath, what do you like enough about the books to read them repeatedly?
Mistral
--
"All knowledge is valuable."--Avon
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:45:42 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's promises
Message-ID: <19990414114549.68213.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Judith Proctor wrote:
I've always seen Avon's sense of honour as being fairly important to him. He
hates to make a promise, but if he does he'll try and keep it...How far would
this go?>
If he gave his word, he'd keep it. His own self-respect would force him into it,
even if he thought he was being stupid (to quote the man himself 'when did that
ever stop us? ')
Where I'd need to be convinced is that he'd *give* such a promise without
considering and accepting the possibility and full consequences of having to keep
it. As you say, he hates to give a promise, because he knows if he does, he won't
let himself out - or anyone else for that matter. His promise to Blake at Star One
could easily have cost him his life (he was probably expecting it to when he gave
it) and also cost Jenna, Vila and Cally *their* lives - he didn't ask them how
they felt before giving the promise, nor did he give them any choice (yes, I know
he didn't have a lot of time for an argument, but there's no evidence he thought
about whether *they* wanted to keep his promise along with him.)
There was his agreement also to take Blake to Earth as payment for the Liberator.
There he gave his word, fully expecting to keep it, but circumstances beyond either man's
control made it impossible. I think he could accept that (although I think it must
have nagged at him for a while.) but if they'd found Blake - even months after Star One
- it would have come back to haunt him.
So I'd find it hard (but not impossible - you're a good writer, convince me!!) to accept
that he'd only make such a promise *because* he though he wouldn't have to keep it. He
might hope he would never have to, but I believe he'd accept the possibility before giving
his word.
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 04:58:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Peter Borg <peter_borg@yahoo.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] New website
Message-ID: <19990414115820.3665.rocketmail@web606.mail.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
The new Horizon website has been up for a few days,
with an entirely new news system, a new merchandise
system, guestbook and search system.
http://www.horizon.org.uk
The opening page has a "What's New" list so you can
easily keep tabs on site updates, new merchandise, and
new news items.
Peter.
===
--
Peter Borg
peter_borg@yahoo.com
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:15:00 EDT
From: SupeStud00@aol.com
To: peter_borg@yahoo.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] New website
Message-ID: <7af1c43c.2445e0c4@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 4/14/99 7:01:07 AM EST, peter_borg@yahoo.com writes:
<<
The new Horizon website has been up for a few days,
with an entirely new news system, a new merchandise
system, guestbook and search system.
http://www.horizon.org.uk
The opening page has a "What's New" list so you can
easily keep tabs on site updates, new merchandise, and
new news items. >>
Also checkout www.angelfire.com/sd/thestud.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 05:11:01 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: OT: BACs (was Re: [B7L] Worst Openings)
Message-ID: <371485D5.287B3BA8@ptinet.net>
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VulcanXYZ@aol.com wrote:
> By the way, what kind of Christian would Blake be? I suspect he would be one
> of those obnoxious "I-won't-take-no-for-an-answer" missionaries that so many
> are complaining about. After all, that's what he does with the fight against
> the Federation.
I suspect you're right about Blake; but Vila would undoubtedly be a Pentecostal
or other charismatic type. And he would do an awful lot of backsliding and
repenting, backsliding and repenting, backsliding and repenting.......
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 05:27:24 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] OT: Cherryh books (was Attack...
Message-ID: <371489AB.A325FFF0@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Calle Dybedahl wrote:
> mistral@ptinet.net writes:
>
> > -- If you think Vanye is too unsure and indecisive to be admirable,
> > and Morgaine a paranoid psychopath, what do you like enough about the
> > books to read them repeatedly?
>
> Easy. I like paranoid psychopaths :-)
Walked into that one with eyes wide shut, didn't I? But then, "One has to face
these hazards when exploring new frontiers." (Egrorian, OB7)
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: 14 Apr 1999 14:14:27 +0200
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] OT: Cherryh books (was Attack...
Message-ID: <ussoa3s8kc.fsf@sara.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
mistral@ptinet.net writes:
> -- If you think Vanye is too unsure and indecisive to be admirable,
> and Morgaine a paranoid psychopath, what do you like enough about the
> books to read them repeatedly?
Easy. I like paranoid psychopaths :-)
--
Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
This posting is protected by a Whizzo Brand Fnord Filter (TM).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 05:41:47 PDT
From: "Stephen Date" <stephendate@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: OT: BACs (was Re: [B7L] Worst Openings)
Message-ID: <19990414124148.52569.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
>VulcanXYZ@aol.com wrote:
>
>> By the way, what kind of Christian would Blake be? I suspect he
would be one
>> of those obnoxious "I-won't-take-no-for-an-answer" missionaries
that so many
>> are complaining about. After all, that's what he does with the
fight against
>> the Federation.
To which Mistral replied:
>I suspect you're right about Blake; but Vila would undoubtedly be a
Pentecostal
>or other charismatic type. And he would do an awful lot of
backsliding and
>repenting, backsliding and repenting, backsliding and
repenting.......
>
....and the Church he belonged to would have a mysterious recurring
problem, whereby the communion wine would keep vanishing.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:22:33 +0100
From: "Julie Horner" <julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] B7 telemovie
Message-ID: <01be8679$db13df30$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Just come from the Chat room where Brian Lighthill announced
he is working on a Blakes 7 telemovie with Paul Darrow.
Julie Horner
Software Engineer
Lincoln Software
Tel: +44 (0) 1625 616722
Fax: +44(0) 1625 616780
E-mail: julie.horner@lincolnsoftware.com
Web: http://www.lincolnsoftware.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:23:54 +0100
From: Murray Smith <mjsmith@tcd.ie>
To: Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Blood feuds
Message-Id: <l03110700b33a456f49a7@[134.226.96.44]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
In 'Death-Watch' we see Dayna forcibly stopping the medical
examination
of Vinni after the contest, and holding Servalan at gunpoint. This was held
to be a 'minor technical violation' of the Convention, and she was banned
from the planet; because, according to Avon, 'There is a blood feud between
Dayna and Servalan. But Dayna did not declare a challenge and she did not
kill Servalan either'.
All this made me think. There are, no doubt, plenty of people who
would qualify in terms of having a blood feud against Servalan; so why
wouldn't _they_ in person, or via their champions, challenge her? One could
write a very interesting story of Servalan having to deal with, in person
or via her champion, all these challengers. Even if she won, it would take
a huge amount of time, and would humiliate her politically, allowing her to
be deposed. What does anyone think?
Murray
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 09:28:09 EDT
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's promises
Message-ID: <8102be55.2445f1e9@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Judith wrote:
> Breaking it will also cost him the respect of someone who used to be a
> close friend.
IMHO, this is probably the key point, as well as Avon's own sense of honour.
Avon takes his few friendships *VERY* seriously, and I doubt that he would
break even a dangerous promise to such a friend.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:48:05 EDT
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: OT: BACs (was Re: [B7L] Worst Openings)
Message-ID: <5c22c605.244604a5@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 99-04-14 08:52:00 EDT, stephendate@hotmail.com writes:
<< ....and the Church he belonged to would have a mysterious recurring
problem, whereby the communion wine would keep vanishing. >>
Except I'm not sure the Pentocostals use wine in communion. There are a lot
of denominations here in the States that use grape juice instead because it's
non-alcoholic. Consumption of any alcohol is considered to be a sin. Which
would *really* be a problem for Vila....
Tiger M
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 07:59:01 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: PiC Rant (was Re: [B7L] Sleazy Vila)
Message-ID: <3714AD34.72B7F0F8@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Pat Patera wrote:
> Now on to a feminist rant!
Hee, hee. Watch out, Pat. <smile> You probably ought to be made aware that, now
I am on the list, every time you do this, you may have to endure an
anti-feminist rant in return.
> There's not so much a stigma to being female as a stereotype. This is
> the last hold out in an era when political correctness is whitewashing
> the portrayal of all other classes.
Unhappily not true. There are several other groups of people that it is still
PC to dis. Christians have already been mentioned; also it is ok to mock the
morbidly obese; and Southerners in the U.S., who are almost always universally
cast as either rednecks or white trash.
> Native Americans are staging noisy protests outside football stadiums to
> prevent their class from being stereotyped as warrior savages: The
> Washington Redskins and Atlanta Braves and Cleveland Indians have had to
> jettison their colorful feathered painted mascots and are in real danger
> of losing their Brand Names.
As with most other protest groups, this is, I suspect, a small but vocal
subgroup. The 'Native Americans' of my acquaintance call themselves Indians,
and are not in the least offended by sports teams with this kind of name.
> No one would nowadays dare portray blacks in "black face" the stereotype
> of the white-eyed servile idiot.
Yet Whoopi can host the Oscars in whiteface without raising an eyebrow.
> Gay men cannot now be portrayed as limp wristed lisping faggots.
Hmm... I still see this one in the movies not infrequently.
> Asians cannot now be portrayed as tiny servile chattering laundry
> workers.
Or even called Orientals. Or even (horrors!) complimented because statistically
they have the best record in higher education of any other minority subgroup,
because this is subjecting them to undue performance pressure.
> Yet women are still widely and unapologetically stereotyped as sex
> objects. TV is the worst pepetrator.
TV is always at least twenty years behind society in anything.
I really think the point is that 1) you can't change reality by changing the
definitions of common words, 2) anyone can cast themselves as the victim if
they want to, and 3) everything offends *somebody*.
> Here in Reno, Nevada, a letter to the newspaper called attention to the
> fact that sleezy women (i.e. big busted and nearly naked) are paraded
> all about town on the tops of taxi cabs that are outfitted with
> advertising billboards promoting the topless clubs and strip joints.
> Certainly this is damaging to the image of "real" women who live and
> work here.
And yet, supposedly one of the original tenets of feminism was that women
should be able to determine for themselves how they live their lives, including
what they do for a living; to the point that it is a crime against women for
prostitution to be illegal, since it penalizes the women for earning a living,
not the men who make use of the service. In which case the women who work in
the strip clubs are "real" women too, as are the women who want to be full-time
wives and moms (this includes several of my friends; and it was hard for some
of them, thanks to feminism, to find husbands who were happy with this
arrangement). It seems to me that feminism is equally as guilty of trying to
force women to live within feminist ideas of womanhood as any other group with
more (or less) traditional ideas of womanhood.
> Imagine the uproar if pictures of big-eyed servile blacks were paraded
> about on top of taxi cabs. There'd be fire bombings and riots by those
> blacks (the men).
>
> The real problem is that women have no men in their "class" (ha ha). If
> they did, the men wouldn't be burning bras - they'd be burning the taxi
> cabs, magazines, etc. that stereotype and demean them.
Surely you're not suggesting that we should descend to this level of idiocy?
> Women are their own worst enemies. Women are wimps. Until they stand up
> and get united and forceful they will remain relegated to being used.
> And I, alas, being a passive INT femme, put myself in that camp. But
> biology is destiny. Most women are simply not interested in inciting
> violence for any reason. So they will remain subjugated by those who do.
Um, I'm having to really bite my tongue here in order not to become violently
offensive. Nobody has *ever* accused me of being passive; nor am I afraid of
violence when it becomes necessary. But I am sick of women who think that the
way to get respect from men is to bully them (or shame them) into it. That
doesn't even work with women, let alone men, who are biologically hardwired for
predation and competition. Frankly, if a man got in my way, I'd far rather do
an end run around him than try to plow through him. I think it's smarter and
more effective. Apart from which, there *is* a happy medium between 'servile
shrinking violet' and 'frigid emasculating bitch', and *most* men (in my
experience) respect (and are attracted to) women who've found it. That's not
subjugation. That's maturity and *mutual* respect.
You can't change other people; you can only change yourself. But you do have
the most influence in your immediate orbit. It's far more effective to work on
having a healthy relationship with the people in your life, than it is to
firebomb taxicabs.
And I can't help thinking that if Avon acted the way the feminist movement
seems to think all men ought to act, he certainly wouldn't be the most popular
fellow on this list.
All throw things ---- now!
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 11:37:02 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Attack of the Space Bimbos (was Sleazy Vila)
Message-ID: <000601be86a3$08b937e0$50418cd4@default>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="utf-7"
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Mistral wrote:
+AD4-Neil wrote:
+AD4-
+AD4APg- The depressing thing is, any attempt to pull a character out of one
+AD4APg- particular pigeonhole almost inevitably only succeeds in filing her under
+AD4APg- another one. I'm not sure I can see any way out of this.
+AD4-
+AD4-You could try calling them archetypes instead of pigeonholes :)
A rose by any other name will still attract blackfly.
+AD4-
+AD4-Good characterization is difficult to do on television, IMHO,
+AD4-particularly with more than one or two characters in a 50-minute
+AD4-show with action- instead of emotion-driven plots.
True, but the boys came out better as characters in their own right, whilst
the women were slotted into pigeonholes ... er ... archetypal roles.
+AD4-I think I'll have to object to the description of Soolin as a
+AD4-'cold bitch' though -- not because it offends me, but because I
+AD4-think it's inaccurate. I'd call her reserved, or even cool, but
+AD4-not cold+ADs- and she never displays any behaviour that I could
+AD4-remotely agree could be called bitchy. She helps out Zeeona and
+AD4-Tarrant, is quite comradely with Dayna, teases Vila, works quite
+AD4-well with Avon -- as far as I can tell, the only thing this
+AD4-character really suffers from is lack of development+ADs- she wasn't
+AD4-even given any real flaws. You can hardly call her a cold bitch
+AD4-because she avenged her family+ADs- that would make a male character
+AD4-in this kind of series a hero.
But isn't any woman who trespasses on male territory a bitch of some kind or
another?
+AD4-
+AD4-As for Ripley, they did try to give her more dimensions -- a
+AD4-maternal side in Aliens, self-sacrifice in Alien3+ADs- but a female
+AD4-character can't be all things to all people any more than a male
+AD4-character can.
+AD4-
+AD4-I'm (quite sincerely) certain you'd never deliberately do this,
+AD4-but it +ACo-almost+ACo- sounds as if you're making the stereotypical male
+AD4-conclusion that +ACo-strong woman who doesn't need man+ACo- +AD0- +ACo-frigid
+AD4-emasculating evil pseudo-woman+ACo-.
No, I'm not making this false equation, and hopefully won't until I see a
fish riding a bicycle. I've never really been able to understand it.
Wanting, maybe, but needing, no.
Anyway, why should a frigid emasculating pseudo-woman be evil?
+AD4-Still, Soolin, Ripley, etc., are an improvement from the women
+AD4-in John Norman's Gor novels, don't you think? +ADw-snicker+AD4-
Not read any, nor do I intend to.
+AD4-
+AD4-With regard to writing for the opposite gender: I'd be interested
+AD4-in knowing if any guys on this list have read C. J. Cherryh's
+AD4-Morgaine books, and what they think of the male viewpoint
+AD4-character, Vanye. Is he believable or not, and do you admire him?
+AD4-(Morgaine is frequently cited as a strong female character in
+AD4-fantasy, I'm wondering how well Cherryh did with the male sidekick.)
Not read any (again), but I recently read a couple of Ruth Rendells and a P
D James and reckoned they handled all their male characters pretty well.
Women can write men, and men can write women. It's when female characters
are slotted into traditionally 'male' roles or (more rarely) male characters
into traditionally 'female' roles that the miswriting is more likely to
occur, and I wouldn't like to say how important the gender of the author is.
+AD4AIg-A man's just a man, when all's said and done.+ACI---Piri
Bloody frigid emasculating evil pseudo-woman (as written by a man). And a
crap assassin.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 13:32:37 -0700
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Blood feuds
Message-ID: <19980312.133358.9974.0.Rilliara@juno.com>
On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 14:23:54 +0100 Murray Smith <mjsmith@tcd.ie> writes:
> All this made me think. There are, no doubt, plenty of people
>who
>would qualify in terms of having a blood feud against Servalan; so why
>wouldn't _they_ in person, or via their champions, challenge her? One
>could
>write a very interesting story of Servalan having to deal with, in
>person
>or via her champion, all these challengers. Even if she won, it would
>take
>a huge amount of time, and would humiliate her politically, allowing
>her to
>be deposed. What does anyone think?
The only catch seems to be she would have to be on a planet where blood
feud was recognized. Since Avon's certainly smart enough to either give
her a reason to travel to a particular world or at least keep track of
where she is, waiting for the right chance, it shouldn't be a problem.
Anyone in the group could probably get his cooperation on a project like
this. Or they might come up with their own way of doing it (it's not
impossible Soolin might contact Servalan, point out she's a mercenary for
hire, and ask what Servalan would pay to have Avon delivered to her, pick
up to be arranged on a neutral world of Soolin's choosing, etc. But her
real intent would be to lure Servalan there, which doesn't mean she might
not be willing to endanger Avon to pull it off [unlikely, maybe, but not
impossible. Of course, then everything goes wrong.... Please, people,
stop giving me ideas. I haven't got time to do anything with them.)
Ellynne
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Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 16:46:03 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: space-city@world.std.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] New B7 Zine
Message-ID: <252b6093.2446588b@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
S.L.Y.G.O. is a new B7 zine from New Zealand B7 fan Jann
Johnson. Jann doesn't have Internet access or much contact with
the rest of the fandom, but she clearly loves the series, and
that love shows in this production.
It's not the slickest zine on the market. The writing is
rough in spots, and there are numerous typos and other errors.
But the storytelling includes interesting ideas and
developments, and some refreshingly different, but logically
conceived, slants on the characters and events in the series.
The novella is a sequence of six stories that focus on
"an alternative to the origins of Pylene 50, and an insight into
Tarrant's life before, during and after the 'seven'." Each
section is an independent story within itself, but the sections
also tie together; facts presented in one are relevant to other
segments.
Story two has some particularly good writing. Jann creates
a spine-tingling atmosphere that I've not seen equaled in other
pieces of fanfiction. Later segments contain deft presentations
of character and dynamics that I don't want to get into for fear
of spoiling the story, but I appreciated the care that went into the
relationships. And I'm looking forward to the promised sequel.
Working with less than the best technology, Jann put
together a neat-appearing zine. It's A5 size with perfect
binding and a plastic cover. The unnumbered, inside pages are
simple, one-sided photocopies, dark type and an easy to read
layout and font. The zine is twice as thick as it need be--I
assume that's because Jann didn't have access to double-sided
photocopying--but priced so low that fans shouldn't have cause to
complain over the excess white space. The cover is an attractive
composite that includes a lovely Tarrant in his Federation uniform. And
there is a Dayna illustration on the inside of the back cover. Art is by Jann
and by Karnael Heru Er.
The zine is $6 cash for US orders. I'm afraid I don't have
prices for other countries. Interested individuals will have to
S.A.S.E. Jann for that information.
Orders and inquiries: Jann Johnson, Faw Paws Press, 82
Clifford Road, Johnsonville, Wellington, New Zealand
"Cert 15: Contains offensive language and mild sexual
references."
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 15:51:41 PDT
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: OT: BACs (was Re: [B7L] Worst Openings)
Message-ID: <19990414225142.44427.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Mistral:
>>I suspect you're right about Blake; but Vila would undoubtedly be a
>>Pentecostal or other charismatic type. And he would do an awful lot >>of backsliding and repenting, backsliding and repenting, backsliding >>and repenting.......
Half the fun for him, don't you think? Especially if the repenting involved a lot of singing and waving of arms - perfect for B7's very own hedonist. I can see him having a lot of fun yelling "hallelujah" at odd moments during the service.
Stephen said:
>....and the Church he belonged to would have a mysterious recurring
>problem, whereby the communion wine would keep vanishing.
There's the other half. Right, Tramila? <grin>
>Except I'm not sure the Pentocostals use wine in communion. There >are a lot of denominations here in the States that use grape juice >instead because it's non-alcoholic. Consumption of any alcohol is >considered to be a sin. Which would *really* be a problem for Vila....
>Tiger M
Well, he's resourceful. The communion wine is probably disappearing from other local churches. Better than the lead from the roof or the money from the collection plate, anyway <smile> Although, the latter is a possibility for all that repenting and backsliding Mistral mentioned.
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 17:20:54 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Attack of the Space Bimbos (was Sleazy Vila)
Message-ID: <371530E5.A0899D5B@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Neil wrote:
> True, but the boys came out better as characters in their own right, whilst
> the women were slotted into pigeonholes ... er ... archetypal roles.
Better, yes, but still archetypes: Blake = messiah type
Avon = anti-hero (or reluctant hero)
Vila = wise fool
Tarrant = knight (specifically the pure young Galahad type, apart from
'Powerplay')
Gan came out the worst of the men, and as I mentioned before, he was at the tag end of
the credits.
> But isn't any woman who trespasses on male territory a bitch of some kind or
> another?
<snort> Must be irony.
"Trespasses on male territory"? Wanting to avenge your family when society looks the
other way is male territory? And I suppose loving your children enough to nurture them
is female territory? What a ridiculous idea. No, Soolin's not a bitch. She's clever,
independent, cool, determined... and possibly stubborn, sarcastic, and a few less
flattering things -- everybody has flaws -- but she's not a bitch. (And to clarify:
I'm not opposed to traditional gender roles, just opposed to the vilification of
people who find those roles inappropriate for themselves and who want to step outside
them.)
> Anyway, why should a frigid emasculating pseudo-woman be evil?
Because that's the stereotypical male attitude to which I was referring. Quite apart
from that, I think that *wanting* to hurt and humiliate (emasculate) people is never
really quite nice.
> Women can write men, and men can write women. It's when female characters
> are slotted into traditionally 'male' roles or (more rarely) male characters
> into traditionally 'female' roles that the miswriting is more likely to
> occur, and I wouldn't like to say how important the gender of the author is.
Sure, I didn't say impossible, only harder.
Grins,
Mistral
--
"You can't blame them for being human."--Blake
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:15:55 +1000
From: Sarah Berry <berrys@connexus.apana.org.au>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] re:attack of the space bimbos
Message-ID: <3715139B.C0151A26@connexus.apana.org.au>
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Neil:
> Which raises the perennial (and perennially unanswered question) - how
> should women be depicted in TVSF?
As people, add the gender - if relevant later.
Sarah Berry.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:20:01 +1000
From: Sarah Berry <berrys@connexus.apana.org.au>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] re:sleazy vila
Message-ID: <37151491.9C4C1A7B@connexus.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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mistral@ptinet.net
>... not all unwelcome sexual advances are harrassment. Having
>said that, it does probably differ from country to country.
Julia Jones:
> A persistant pattern of unwanted sexual behaviour is sexual
> harrassment in the UK regardless of whether the person carrying out the
> harrassment is in a position to threaten the victim's career, and a
> company could be sued for not putting a stop to it.
I'm pretty sure that's true of Oz too. Thank goodness.
Sarah Berry.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:36:18 +1000
From: Sarah Berry <berrys@connexus.apana.org.au>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re:Sleazy Vila
Message-ID: <37151862.BBDC2CF2@connexus.apana.org.au>
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Pat P wrote about the portrayals that are not allowed and yet those of women
that are. 'Enjoyed' that. Thanks.
> Women are their own worst enemies. Women are wimps. Until they stand up
> and get united and forceful they will remain relegated to being used.
> And I, alas, being a passive INT femme, put myself in that camp. But
> biology is destiny. Most women are simply not interested in inciting
> violence for any reason. So they will remain subjugated by those who do.
I tend to agree that we can be our own worst enemies, but because we act against
other women not because we rarely use violence. This is an approx statistic
because I've thrown the magazine out. Only 95 of 17000 australian prisoners are
women who committed murder. Even if the exact numbers are wrong the point ought
to be clear (ie the one pat already made). and I think that's a strength. Why
is violence the only way not to be subjugated? I wonder if subjugation's got
more to do with the way we view sex?
And Neil wrote about the stereotypes that women characters are 'allowed' to
portray.
And doesn't Blakes 7 absolutely follow the trend. One gun slinger/terrorist is
fine, but having two more was...overkill! Blake as a Helen Mirren 'Prime
Suspect' style Blake, now there's a thought (except she was a woMAN in a man's
world).
But then what would have happened in the unlikely event that more of the writers
had been women I wonder?
Sarah Berry.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:22:04 +1000
From: Sarah Berry <berrys@connexus.apana.org.au>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] re:the synedton experiment
Message-ID: <3715150C.EE037CF9@connexus.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I've just recieved the CD - now I'm too 'scared' to listento it! Tell me
there's good stuff on it too. Sarah Berry.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 18:08:42 -0700
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Sleazy Vila
Message-ID: <19980312.180844.10062.0.Rilliara@juno.com>
On Thu, 15 Apr 1999 08:36:18 +1000 Sarah Berry
<berrys@connexus.apana.org.au> writes:
>Pat P wrote about the portrayals that are not allowed and yet those of
>women
>that are. 'Enjoyed' that. Thanks.
>
>> Women are their own worst enemies. Women are wimps. Until they stand
>up
>> and get united and forceful they will remain relegated to being
>used.
>> And I, alas, being a passive INT femme, put myself in that camp. But
>> biology is destiny. Most women are simply not interested in inciting
>> violence for any reason. So they will remain subjugated by those who
>do.
>
>I tend to agree that we can be our own worst enemies, but because we
>act against
>other women not because we rarely use violence
Why
>is violence the only way not to be subjugated?
It's not. Violence didn't gain women the right to vote, for example.
Throughout the 19th century there was a war of ideas and opinions. In
the end, male voters had to be persuaded to pass laws.
Not that peaceful resistance seems to work much in the Blakes 7 universe,
since the first peaceful, work within the system people we see are
promptly gunned down (and no one ever seems to hear about it).
>
>And Neil wrote about the stereotypes that women characters are
>'allowed' to
>portray.
>
>And doesn't Blakes 7 absolutely follow the trend. One gun
>slinger/terrorist is
>fine, but having two more was...overkill!
Well, Dayna and Soolin were cut from the same cloth (Dayna: weapons
expert out to avenge dead family. Soolin: gun expert who avenged dead
family), although differences emerged over time (which may have been the
actresses hard work rather than the writers). However, what other kind
of people are freedom fighters or outlaws normally looking for?
>
>But then what would have happened in the unlikely event that more of
>the writers
>had been women I wonder?
>
Cally would have spent more time saving Avon.
Ellynne
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