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blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 104
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Re: [B7L] worst opening
Re: [B7L] what's so funny?
Re: [B7L] what's so funny?
Re: [B7L] what's so funny?
[B7L] Re: Cult Tv guests
Re: [B7L] Assassin
[B7L] Re: More Dayna dynamics
Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Re: [B7L] Re: More Dayna dynamics
Re: [B7L] what's so funny? (was - Assassin)
Re: [B7L] Heat Interview with PD
Re: [B7L] what's so funny?
Re: [B7L] Assassin
[B7L] Au revoir
[B7L] personal space
Re: [B7L] Sheelagh Wells' Together Agailn Tapes
Re: [B7L] what's so funny?
Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Re: [B7L] personal space
[B7L] Re: Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant
Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Re: [B7L] personal space
Re: [B7L] More Dayna dynamics
Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant
Re: [B7L] what's so funny?
Re: [B7L] personal space
Re: [B7L] More Dayna dynamics
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 04:57:17 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-ID: <36EFA6AC.1C005987@ptinet.net>
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Mac4781@aol.com wrote:
> Mistral wrote:
>
> > Avon can be hurt, or he can laugh; and
> > the usual reaction is to laugh on the surface, and be
> > hurt on some deeper level. This is where the real
> > struggle between Avon and Tarrant begins -- with
> > Tarrant basically announcing that he's outsmarted
> > Avon; there's not a much more direct challenge he
> > could have issued, short of slapping Avon in the face
> > with a glove.
>
> I don't think Avon's ego is that easily bruised (but then *my* Avon seems to
> be uniformly more emotionally strong and stable than your Avon).
<snort> <snicker> You certainly don't have any qualms
about being insulting, do you? I think I'll come back to this,
and take the next part of your comment first:
> I think Avon
> found the entire situation highly amusing. And I also think it contributed to
> his quickly accepting Tarrant as a member of the crew: "This is a bright kid,
> we could use him."
IMHO, your memory is playing tricks with you. At the point
being discussed (Tarrant's dig about Avon or Vila?), Tarrant
is still pretending to be a Federation officer and pointing a
gun at Avon. I think it terribly ballsy of Avon to laugh at
Tarrant's dig, with a gun in his face, but I don't think he was
all *that* amused; rather, it appealed to his sense of the
ironic and absurd, and was rather safer than saying to the
man with a gun, "You stupid idiot, how dare you imply that
I could be mistaken for Vila."
As far as Avon's relative emotional strength and stability,
'my' Avon has exactly *two* character flaws. IMHO, a
person with only two character flaws is extremely stable
emotionally. Everything that I have ever said about him that
you seem to take as a denigration flows naturally from those
two basic flaws; in fact, as far as I can recall, any action that he
takes in the show that could be construed as negative can be
traced reasonably back to his having one or the other flaw,
IMHO, which is why I infer them:
1) Ego issues (specifically insecurity manifesting as arrogance.)
I do realize that you're probably bridling at the word insecurity,
but his arrogance is waved in our face over and over and over,
and arrogance is one of the most simple and direct manifestations
of insecurity there is. As far as I know, there is no other psychological
cause for arrogance.
2) Trust issues: 'I don't take anything on trust'. You've mentioned,
quite correctly, that Avon has good reason not to trust -- but so do
the others; Blake has plenty of reason not to trust people, but in
series A and B, there isn't any evidence of Blake having trust issues;
nor Vila or Cally, both of whom might have some reason not to
trust. Jenna, OTOH seems a little wary -- but with Avon it is
hammered home over and over and over how very little he is willing
to trust people. As I've said elsewhere, trust and betrayal is a
recurring theme throughout all four series generally, but even more
so tied to Avon specifically.
Ego and trust issues are frequently tied together; you could almost
say I've only endowed 'my' Avon with only one flaw. But I'm quite
willing to grant that I see him with two rather glaring flaws, and
all of the minor quirks that go with them. The Avon I hear you
describe, on the other hand, is rather cartoonishly simplistic. He
appears to start out, like Mary Poppins, 'practically perfect', and
improve from there. Deadly dull and not, IMHO, remotely
believable.
In a literary sense, Blake is a hero-type -- almost a messiah-type,
really; and Tarrant is a hero-type; sort of reminiscent of Luke
Skywalker, perhaps. But Avon starts out as a foil and transforms
into an anti-hero (or more properly, a reluctant hero); and no, I'm
not a bit eager to accept the idea of a namby-pamby, watered-down,
simplistic cartoon, when the character on the screen is so much more
complex and realistic. Avon at war with Avon in the midst of
circumstance is so much more interesting than Avon at war with
circumstance and at peace with himself.
If you're inferring that I see Avon as weak because I've imbued
him with flaws, then you must think that all people are weak,
because we all have flaws. Rather, I admire him for learning to
live with his own flaws, for taking responsibility for his own
actions, and for occasionally (rather consistently, actually) rising
above himself to do the right thing in spite of those flaws. I have
always found resisting temptation more admirable than not
having the imagination to be tempted. Those kinds of successes
are far more inspiring.
Always, of course, remembering that these *are*
television characters we're talking about! <smile>
Mistral
--
"I could never stand heroes."--Avon
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:01:26 EST
From: Bizarro7@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] worst opening
Message-ID: <41ea64d7.36efa7a6@aol.com>
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Now I KNOW there's a website out there somewhere with a whole list of
previously-generated, brilliant "worst opening lines" for B7. This goes back a
ways, but if anyone can post it, there'll be a lot of side-splitting as a
reward, if memory serves.
Which is not to say there aren't some potentially brilliant new ones. Fire
away!
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:41:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: Una McCormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny?
Message-ID: <Pine.PCW.3.96.990317143102.2871B-100000@umm-pc.jims.cam.ac.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Mistral said:
>I'd be glad to see some specific examples of humor that is not painful
>for *somebody* -- I do often try to think of some, but never
>can.
What about punning? Apart from the 'groan factor' (and that doesn't really
constitute pain, *really*), this involves humour without causing people
pain. A lot of the humour which my friends and I come up with is based
around extended exchanges in which we come up with ever more ridiculous
puns on the same theme. You could argue that this is a form of
one-upmanship, I suppose, in that we're each trying to outdo the other in
a form of intellectual posturing, but that's just the context in which the
humour takes place. The actual gags are based on cleverness in
wordplay rather than pain - I think more like Alison's juxtaposition of
unexpected ideas.
Actually, I was all geared up to disagree with Alison (just on principle! ;P )
and do my ultra-cynical view of human nature and hence humour dependent
on pain routine, but it appears it just ain't the case. Damn! You
shouldn't have thrown that one out a challenge, Mistral - it's more
tempting to try to prove someone wrong than to pose as a git!
Una ;)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 05:54:49 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny?
Message-ID: <36EFB429.E02AD61B@ptinet.net>
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Una McCormack wrote:
> What about punning? Apart from the 'groan factor' (and that doesn't really
> constitute pain, *really*), this involves humour without causing people
> pain. A lot of the humour which my friends and I come up with is based
> around extended exchanges in which we come up with ever more ridiculous
> puns on the same theme.
Actually, my friends and I do that as well. Puns are the bestexample I've ever
heard of 'non-painful' humor. They're also
generally considered the 'lowest form' of humor ;) But I still
wonder if there's not just a little pain at the root of those too:
the indirect acknowledgment of our own fallibility; every one
of us has made linguistic mistakes -- *genuine* groaners, not
deliberate ones -- particularly as children. OTOH, babies
laugh at things, and I'm not sure that they are always
experiencing pain when they do so; perhaps the laughter-pain
connection is learned?
> Actually, I was all geared up to disagree with Alison (just on principle! ;P )
> and do my ultra-cynical view of human nature and hence humour dependent
> on pain routine, but it appears it just ain't the case. Damn! You
> shouldn't have thrown that one out a challenge, Mistral - it's more
> tempting to try to prove someone wrong than to pose as a git!
Well, now. All you have to do is prove your pun theory wrong, andthen you can go
back to challenging Alison. Double fun for the
price of your admission. <grin>
I was bread for puns. Bun there, done that. You're on a roll; I toast you.
Aaugghhhh!
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:57:51 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "B7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny?
Message-ID: <000401be708b$18b47fc0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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It's so impossible to give examples of 'funny'. As the saying goes 'you had
to be there'. Stuff that made me laugh out loud at the time, if I wrote it
here would look pretty pathetic.
Perhaps that's because if your mind has made the jump once, a reprise is a
bit of a letdown. The jolt has gone. If it was other people's pain that made
us laugh we'd enjoy it just as much the second time and the third.. and so
on.
I'm not saying I haven't taken pleasure in the past from seeing someone who
has hurt me getting their just deserts, but I wouldn't say these were
episodes of high humour. More grim satisfaction :-)
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:44:51 +0000
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Cult Tv guests
Message-ID: <36EFBFE0.CB4138B6@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
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Carol asked: "The name Simon MacCorkindale is sooooo familiar, but it's
driving me crazy that I can't place him."
According to the Cult TV webpage:
> Simon MacCorkindale
>
> Simon first came to
the attention of Cult TV fans in
>"The Quatermass Conclusion". However his major claims to fame were as
Professor
>Jonathan Chase in
> Manimal and Greg
Reardon in alcon Crest.
>Previously,
>he had featured in Jesus of Nazareth and I, Claudius. He has also
appeared in Hart to
>Hart, Fantasy
> Island, Dynasty, The
Dukes of Hazzard and many
>other shows.
The web address is:
http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/2042/guests.html
An yes, they are really calling it Telly Breakaway this year. Ugh!!!
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
"Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell"
Star Wars
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 08:22:32 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <000601be708f$2069ee40$b4478cd4@default>
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Jonathan wrote:
>You think it would be better if they were competent genocidal thugs instead
>? If there is a danger in Nazi's for laughs, it's in trivializing what they
>did to other people. Nazi doesn't equal German - very few modern day
>Germans would feel insulted by be-littling references to Adolf and co. I'd
>feel less awkward watching The Producers or 'Allo 'Allo with any of the
>Germans I know than I would a documentary on Auschwitz, or a standard WW2
>film - or The Boat.
Some very important points there. My experience of modern day Germans
(mostly teenagers) is that the war is still a very touchy subject. It's not
so much the 'Nazi equals German' equation that does the damage, more one of
'German equals Nazi'. I only read yesterday that the Germans are the most
disliked foreign people among British teenagers, and the ongoing depiction
of Germans as Nazis and a national enemy is reckoned to be largely to blame.
The general feeling among the people I work with is distinctly anti-German.
Portrayals of 'bumbling Nazis' serve to merge the national stereotype (of
Germans as a whole) with the historical stereotype (all Germans are Nazis)
and thus reinforce such false equations. (FWIW, I think the Nazis in Raiders
of the Lost Ark were actually handled pretty well - they made a worthy
adversary for Indiana Jones.)
Portraying Nazis as competent genocidal thugs would at least bear some
relation to historical accuracy. That's why I think they should be treated
with respect (not to be confused with admiration).
Interestingly, I lent some of the afore-mentioned German teenagers a copy of
the Strontium Dog epic Portrait of a Mutant (reprinted from 2000AD), and
then suddenly remembered that it revolved around a hardline right wing
British government orchestrating the genocide of all mutants. The parallels
with the Holocaust were hardly obscured in the story. Thankfully the kids
loved it. One of the strengths of this particular story, I think, is the
way it shows that what happened in Nazi Germany was not an intrinsically
German phenomenon, but something that could happen anywhere, to any people.
>Sometimes humour is a weapon, sometimes it's a safety valve, sometimes it's
>a way of normalizing incongruous or painful truths. And very often it
really
>is just for entertainment. Yes, some jokes are dangerous or insulting. And
>it's nice that you worry. But I think this time you can relax.
>
Whaddayamean? I _am_ relaxed. Just you wait till I really get uptight...
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:12:15 +0000
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: More Dayna dynamics
Message-ID: <36EFD45D.8B294EDE@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
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Tiger wrote: "I can also remember at least two occasions in the third
season where Vila and Dayna are aboard the Liberator, Vila takes control
of
the situation, and Dayna lets him. The first is in Children of Auron,
where
Vila suckers the Fed captain into teleporting up to the ship so Dayna
and
Patar can take him out. The second is in Terminal, when Zen is dying.
Dayna
didn't challenge him. I think Dayna may have had more respect for him
than
was immediately apparent."
This could be an age thing. Dayna was still very young and may have had
some respect for Vila's experience. By the fourth season, she finds what
I think is a more natural ally for her in Soolin and hence her
confidence increases. We see this on at least one occassion where Dayna
and Soolin band together to make fun of Vila. I could never have seen
that happening with Dayna and Cally, they were much too different and
Cally much too mature. Soolin on the other hand had a bit more of the
devil in her, which I think appealed to Dayna's wild streak.
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
"Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell"
Star Wars
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:41:04 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-ID: <c34eff72.36efe930@aol.com>
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Mistral wrote:
> IMHO, your memory is playing tricks with you. At the point
> being discussed (Tarrant's dig about Avon or Vila?), Tarrant
> is still pretending to be a Federation officer and pointing a
> gun at Avon.
You're right. He wouldn't be able to think the "bright kid for our team"
until later. But as with other times when our perceptions are different, I
didn't find Avon's amusement to be anything but genuine. Maybe if he had been
less tired, he would have felt otherwise. But he has had some very trying
days (boinked on the head a couple of times as well), or it would already be
clicking that something is up. Else why hadn't Tarrant confronted him about
his identity immediately.
> in fact, as far as I can recall, any action that he
> takes in the show that could be construed as negative can be
> traced reasonably back to his having one or the other flaw,
I guess we're just going to have to accept our tastes are different. But
you'll be happy to know that there are lots of versions of your Avon in
fanfic, so there's plenty out there for you to enjoy. You might want to give
Hellhound Avon a try. I'll keep a look out for other stories to recommend
when I'm zine browsing.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:55:37 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: More Dayna dynamics
Message-ID: <a780fa8a.36efec99@aol.com>
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Tiger M and Ellynne, I enjoyed your posts on this thread.
Steve wrote:
> I could never have seen
> that happening with Dayna and Cally, they were much too different and
> Cally much too mature.
Dayna and Cally never did seem to be close, though I couldn't pinpoint the
differences other than maturity. Or maybe Cally's general discomfort with
non-telepaths or non-Aurons? Cally didn't seem close to Jenna either.
> Soolin on the other hand had a bit more of the
> devil in her, which I think appealed to Dayna's wild streak.
I enjoyed the scene near the end of Assassin when Soolin and Dayna appeared to
be amused by the general discomfort (for various reasons) of all the men.
They seemed to be sharing private jokes at times.
I often wondered what Soolin thought of Dayna's desire for revenge. Soolin
had done what Dayna was hoping to do. Had Soolin found completion of her
mission satisfying or did she find it to be a letdown? And would she share
those feelings with Dayna?
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 07:58:39 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny? (was - Assassin)
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0317065839-0b0Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
> > >All humor is based on pain of some kind
So why do puns make me laugh?
And why do I totally fail to find humour in situations that cause people
embarassment? So much commendy seems to rely on this and it rarely works for
me.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 12:49:53 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Heat Interview with PD
Message-ID: <36F00762.6985@jps.net>
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Hee. Hee. If Paul ever comes to my city, I'll be glad totake him out to
eat.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:45:48 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny?
Message-ID: <36F0147D.6C85@jps.net>
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How about sheer silliness for humor? Making silly faces, walking around
quacking like a duck or starting to purr like a cat after curling up in
front of the hearth in the winter?
Unexpected, not painful. Of course, one makes oneself vulnerable due to
lack of dignity, but then one only jokes this way where one fully
trusts...
Not, of course, that I would ever quack like a duck.
--Avona
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 13:52:32 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Assassin
Message-ID: <36F01611.7D60@jps.net>
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Mmm... hate to break into this conversation about Nazis/Hogan's Heroes,
BUT...
You know, the prisoners in the POW camp that that show was based on
really DID make use of the soft hearts of many of the soldiers to get
blackmail material on them. Of course, everything was exaggerated and
made into a lot of silliness, but Sgt. Schultz, if bumbling, also showed
a basically kind nature, frightened of what his government had become--
and perhaps represents the average man in his situation better than the
evil-jackbootedthug type.
Mind you, I also thought F Troop was very funny; bumblling Calvary
Officers get outfoxed by the Indians, who nonetheless fail to keep
America because of whiskey addiction and internal politics.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:01:33 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Au revoir
Message-ID: <36F0182E.455F@jps.net>
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Is their something in the medical unit for repetitive motion injuries?
Seems I've been squeezing the trigger on this 'complicated toothpick'
too often. Or maaybe its these damn primitive computers-- if only I
didn't think my employers would look askance at me hooking a large
acrylic box full of twinkly lights to my computer... oh well, ORAC would
never agree to perform menial clerical tasks anyway.
So I must cut down on my home computer time to preserve my arms. When I
have successfully battled away the injuries, I will resub.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:43:20 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] personal space
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0317194320-354Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Carol: <And one thing Blake never fully understood about Avon was how much Avon
needed his own space (emotionally and physically). >
Sally:
> Sorry, Carol, but this I *really* don't agree with. I know I've read
> similar views before, but I don't think there's any evidence at all that Avon
> felt crowded by Blake. Not physically - they are both extremely comfortable
> moving into each other's personal space, Avon making the move just as often
> as Blake; their body language indicates that neither feels stressed. Even
> when they're arguing (and you don't get that level of creative fighting
> unless they're comfortable doing it). Nor crowded mentally - Blake quite
> clearly never asked Avon for an intellectual or emotional commitment to his
> cause, or to him personally, just for his practical help. Avon made the
> decision that it went further into personal loyalty, and I don't see any
> evidence that Blake imposed on the loyalty.
I think it's another fan myth about Avon needing personal space. I recall one
occasiona very clearly where he virtually forces Vila to squeeze past him and
he's half smiling as he does so.
He cheerfully invaded Blake's personal space with no qualms that I ever saw.
The unforgettable one is where he grabs Blake as an explosion goes off and then
instead of letting go when the explosion is over, he just stays with his hands
on Blak's waist for several seconds.
Incidentally, why are fans so convinced that Gauda Prime could not have gone
like this:
Avon: Have you betrayed me?
Blake: Of course not. I'm disguised as a bounty hunter to test new recruits.
Tarrant didn't understand the situation because I'd tested him, but hadn't had
time to explain the real set-up to him. This is actualy a rebel base.
Avon: And you seriously expect me to believe a single word of that? BLAM
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:02:52 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Sheelagh Wells' Together Agailn Tapes
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0317200252-572Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Tue 16 Mar, Roberts, Patricia wrote:
> Sheelagh has asked me to let everyone know that Horizon, the B7 Fan
> Club, will no longer be carrying the Together Again tapes..
>
> Sheelagh will be selling these tapes and anyone can order from her
> directly.
>
> Her address is:
>
> Sheelagh Wells
> 20A New Road
> Brentford, Middlesex TW8 ONX
> England
>
> Volume VI - Solstice" is out. Gareth and Paul are on it as well as
> Pennant Roberts (the series first director) and Mary Ridge (the series
> last director).
>
> You can also get the tapes from Judith Proctor (see her website).
And they'll be available via Linda Knights before long. I just need to stay
awake long enough to tell her the prices once I've worked out the overseas
postage costs.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Fanzines for Blake's 7 and many other fandoms, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news,
Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 16:14:26 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny?
Message-Id: <4.1.19990317155620.036ed7c0@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
mistral@ptinet.net wrote:
>But I still wonder if there's not just a little pain at the root of those
too: the indirect acknowledgment of our own fallibility;
I think that is really, *really* stretching it.
Thinking of the things I laugh at, most of them have their roots in
incongruity, not pain. Or just plain silliness, though most of that is
really incongruity as well. I think that's certainly the key to humor in my
case; I've always had a fondness for the absurd. And it certainly doesn't
have to involve pain of any sort, to anyone.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 14:31:12 PST
From: "Joanne MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-ID: <19990317223113.5684.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Just before I really have to start work for the day (it's after 9 am,
after all <grin>):
Mistral wrote:
>1) Ego issues (specifically insecurity manifesting as arrogance.)
>I do realize that you're probably bridling at the word insecurity,
>but his arrogance is waved in our face over and over and over,
>and arrogance is one of the most simple and direct manifestations
>of insecurity there is. As far as I know, there is no other
psychological
>cause for arrogance.
Having difficulty with this one. As I've seen it previously, there is
genuine arrogance, as well as what my old boss referred to as
"overcompensation due to lack of confidence" (which may or may not
equate to insecurity). The latter is my problem, which is why I'm having
trouble seeing it as Avon's, because it's so rare for him to lack
confidence.
It's all acting, after all, but what is suggested is that more people
would have a problem with Avon's ego than he would himself, simply
because it's a pretty healthy one and he doesn't need to feign an
appearance of competence. When in doubt, he says it isn't his field -
others would babble something and hope for the best. The question that's
puzzling me is: if someone's that sure of himself in most situations,
where's the insecurity that's supposed to cause arrogance? I'd sooner
call Tarrant arrogant (sorry, Carol, but you'll forgive me, won't you?),
but from my angle, he fits the definition somewhat better than Avon,
because of his youth and a lack of long term association with the others
in the crew.
<smile> Of course, I'm tearing my hair over things at work that just
have to be done, so there may be more of a link than I can see just at
this moment.
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:00:07 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] personal space
Message-ID: <5883b32d.36f04207@aol.com>
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Judith wrote:
> I think it's another fan myth about Avon needing personal space. I recall
> one
> occasiona very clearly where he virtually forces Vila to squeeze past him
> and
> he's half smiling as he does so.
That's not what I mean by personal space. It's not just the physical area,
it's a state of mind. And sometimes that state of mind needs physical space,
but even more it needs emotional space. I'm not talking about a dislike of
physical contact, which most of us have noted doesn't appear to bother Avon.
On Gauda Avon needed physical space as a symbol of emotional space; his
emotions were in sensory overload.
> Incidentally, why are fans so convinced that Gauda Prime could not have
gone
> like this:
>
> Avon: Have you betrayed me?
>
> Blake: Of course not. I'm disguised as a bounty hunter to test new
recruits.
>
> Tarrant didn't understand the situation because I'd tested him, but hadn't
> had
> time to explain the real set-up to him. This is actualy a rebel base.
>
> Avon: And you seriously expect me to believe a single word of that? BLAM
Aside from the fact that Avon's dialogue doesn't seem properly acerbic, it
works for me. :) Blake is actually giving too much information at once. It
does make him sound guilty.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1999 00:23:59 -0000
From: "Susan Bennett" <susanb@iol.ie>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant
Message-ID: <006901be70d5$f0a458c0$3d90cbc1@compaq>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Carol said:
>>>And while Blake never clearly asked for an emotional commitment,
most of what he did put that pressure on his shipmates. It's not the kind of
pressure an introvert can easily tolerate (IMHO). The wording of his message
to shipmates in "Trial," for instance. When he said he didn't know if they
trusted him enough or cared about him enough to ask for a message. Blake was
very sincere when he wrote that, and not trying to manipulate anyone (as far
as my judgment goes), but it's the type of line that would (IMHO) make an
introvert cringe and ask "What does he want from me?"<<<
I'm inclined to think that it might depend on more than the introvert/extrovert
divide, as I'm 10/10 on the introvert scale and I don't think it would bother me too
much.
>>> The same with the beginning of "Pressure Point." Blake is clearly giving them
a choice about participating, but there's emotional pressure behind the choice
because they care about him. And an introvert would react--"He knows we care
about him and that we don't have a choice," not realizing that Blake genuinely
thought they had a choice. It's that the two different personality types
can't understand each other. Blake doesn't intend to manipulate, but Avon
can't look at Blake's actions in any other way.<<<
Again, not really the way I would see it. Maybe it's a bit of the Thinking/Feeling
divide as well as introversion?
Susan Bennett
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:57:54 EST
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-ID: <a08d6c8a.36f04f92@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Joanne wrote:
> I'd sooner
> call Tarrant arrogant (sorry, Carol, but you'll forgive me, won't you?),
> but from my angle, he fits the definition somewhat better than Avon,
> because of his youth and a lack of long term association with the others
> in the crew.
You aren't going to get out of your TN membership that easily. :) I think
Tarrant had a healthy confidence in himself. OTOH, it is possible that some
of his early third season swagger might be regarded as arrogance. Someone,
and I don't remember who (sorry, please remind me, because I love the idea),
on this list or the other or maybe it was the Tarrant APA, suggested that the
reason Tarrant was acting so rough and tough in early third season was due to
insecurity. He was trying to impress his new associates, and he expected
wanted rebels would be impressed with toughness. I think it was Sarah who
added how well that fit in with young Steven trying to assume the macho voice
of a 35-year old for the screen test.
Good luck with work stresses!
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:43:35 -0600
From: "Lorna B." <msdelta@magnolia.net>
To: "Lysator List" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] personal space
Message-Id: <199903180137.TAA18057@pemberton.magnolia.net>
Judith said:
>I think it's another fan myth about Avon needing personal space. I recall
one
>occasiona very clearly where he virtually forces Vila to squeeze past him
and
>he's half smiling as he does so.
I can't really see the above instance as an example of Avon's not needing
personal space. This action is very clearly a display of domination on both
Avon's and Vila's parts: Vila's in Avon's face to show that he's peeved at
him and not intimidated by him, and Avon is smiling to show Vila that he's
not the least intimidated by his show of displeasure. It's a game both men
have agreed to play for the moment.
Now if someone invaded Avon's personal space (or Vila's, for that matter),
and he didn't feel like playing...that would be another matter.
Lorna B.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 21:22:42 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] More Dayna dynamics
Message-ID: <e668cce2.36f06372@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 3/16/99 11:04:33 PM Mountain Standard Time,
rilliara@juno.com writes:
> Soolin may remind Dayna somewhat of her dead, blond sister.
And even if not, Dayna *is* used to having a female confidant, so it seems
pretty likely she would be most comfortable with a similar relationship with
Soolin. It was probably more of a novelty for Soolin.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 20:34:26 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tarrant (was Assassin)
Message-Id: <4.1.19990317202556.036c6920@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Joanne MacQueen wrote:
>Having difficulty with this one. As I've seen it previously, there is
>genuine arrogance, as well as what my old boss referred to as
>"overcompensation due to lack of confidence"
I think Avon exhibits both types. The simple assumption of authority in a
field you know damned well you're good at may or may not really be
"arrogance", depending on how you define the term, but it certainly looks a
lot like it to many observers. Avon's got that in matters pertaining to his
techie skills and to some extent his intellectual abilities -- he's smart,
he's good at his job, and he knows it. However, when it comes to dealing
with people and accomplishing goals, Avon's track record isn't too hot and
I see a *lot* of insecurity and "overcompensation due to lack of
confidence" in him there.
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 18:59:51 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon, Blake and a bit of Tarrant
Message-ID: <19990318025953.231.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Carol, we are going to have to stop this rather fascinating thread, my
boss is going to kill me if work doesn't get a look-in soon...
<And while Blake never clearly asked for an emotional commitment, most
of what he did put that pressure on his shipmates. It's not the kind of
pressure an introvert can easily tolerate (IMHO). The wording of his
message to shipmates in Trial for instance... >
Ah. I think I see the point where we differ here. I just don't see that
Avon is *as* introverted as you do. (I have to admit, I skipped most of
the Myer-Briggs thread, since I find that sort of testing rarely works,
and has never worked with me). He has some strong introvert traits, yes,
but he also has a few extrovert (the clothes, my dear! and the lack of
discomfort *with* being close physical proximity with just about anyone)
and a lot that don't fit anywhere.
I think you said in an earlier thread 'Maybe Avon is more flexible than
I am'. He's a very, very complicated, unpredictable and in some ways
illogical man (don't tell *him* I said that!). And mentally and
emotionally tougher than we'd all like to think.
That message in Trial was aimed fair and square at the others. Not Avon.
Whether you look at it as manipulation (unconscious or not) or not,
Blake isn't stupid enough to think that Avon would respond to that sort
of verbal emotional appeal. And Avon knows that. If Blake was trying to
pressure him, he'd use a *very* different approach.
In fact, I don't believe Avon had any intention of abandoning Blake -
the earlier bit where he's 'persuading' the others to do so, I see more
as he's playing with the idea, playing with them. Having had his stab at
Blake over Gan's death, he doesn't care about it any more, and he's just
having fun, toying with Vila, deliberately goading Jenna, almost
ignoring Cally (who he isn't able to affect either way). It's really a
rather nasty game - in fact, very manipulative in its own way, but with
no other purpose than his own amusement - but then Blake's message comes
on and stops his game cold. There's a trace of petulance in his
reactions as he's listening ('so that's what we've got to decide, is it?
').
So, even if Blake's message was manipulative, Avon wouldn't care,
because he never minded *other* people being manipulated (he did it
himself, quite blatantly).
<The same with the beginning of Pressure Point Blake is clearly giving
them a choice about participating, but there's emotional pressure behind
the choice because they care about him. And an introvert would react -
'He knows we care about him and that we don't have a choice' not
realizing that Blake genuinely thought they had a choice.>
Again, I think Avon had made up his mind beforehand to go with Blake, so
any emotional pressure wouldn't have affected him. He makes it clear in
the early scene that he had guessed what Blake had in mind, but he
hadn't said a word to the others until Blake was ready to speak (and he
can't argue that he didn't think it was any of their business!). Then
the exchange:
BLAKE: Come on Avon, stop playing games, are you going to go with me or
not?
AVON: Well of course. I'm surprised you ever doubted it.
To me he does sound and look genuinely (though mildly) surprised -
witness the slight, almost puzzled frown. Not the reaction of someone
who felt even slightly pressured.
<It's that the two different personality types can't understand each
other.>
As I said, I seem to see Avon's personality as less introverted and more
mixed than you do, so we won't agree on this point. But I think they
understand each other very well; listening to them talking, the way they
catch on each other's shades of meaning, the verbal games they sometimes
play, as much as in tone as in words, the way they can come together to
answer a question from someone else, the line of thought being thrown
from one to the other (Shadow, Redemption), proves it. And I don't see
it happening with any other combination, not even Avon & Vila. You've
studied 3rd & 4th season more closely than me, however...
<Another moment is in Redemption. Blake has called Avon down to where he
is to help him, without explaining why he needed him (with the
kissy-kissy power cord). Avon gets there and takes care of the problem.
Blake tells him he owes him one, and Avon very seriously says he'll
remind him about that.>
Avon doesn't like Doing the Right Thing, and he always tends to be
ungracious when he has. (See The Web, Horizon, and that
going-back-to-rescue-Tarrant bit in Rescue). Avon also doesn't like
being interrupted when he's working (again the Web). And Avon has been
singularly irritating in this episode ('it's all right for me not to be
straightforward - even when it's causing the others distress - but
everyone else has to be straightforward with me or else? ' Even he
should be able to see that he's being a smidge unreasonable). And as for
that look from Blake, if you'd just thanked someone and got snarled at,
wouldn't you be a little tetched? Even if you half-expected it? I've
never argued that they didn't find each other extremely irritating -
even infuriating - at times, just that I can't see the ongoing
discomfort in Avon that you see.
<It may be that Avon's self control wouldn't allow him to react when
Blake breached his personal physical space. He wouldn't want Blake to
know about that vulnerability.>
But he wouldn't so obviously be comfortable about it (well, I think he
looks comfortable) if it bothered him. And I also think, if he felt the
lack of emotional space you see, it would also appear in his stance -
he'd be that bit tenser when Blake is near him. And he just ain't
(goodness knows, we get plenty of examples to look at! <g>)
With Tarrant, Avon has a cooler relationship (never mind the fights).
Not that that can't be a smooth and even friendly relationship - not
that it *can't* be as important as the more fiery friendship he has with
Blake. But nor do I accept that there is evidence that Avon wanted out
of Blake's friendship. Just out of Blake's political agenda that went
with it (which is what *I* think he meant by 'I want to be free of him',
at a moment where Blake and his cause have become too closely fused in
his mind, and he realised he probably *couldn't* have one without the
other).
<But as for what would have happened next...saying the Federation didn't
show up...now that would have been interesting. I wonder how Avon would
react to Blake's testing his pilot. 'Didn't you trust me enough to
accept a member of my team?' He would also chide Blake, 'And if you
were going to do something like that, why did you stupidly let him
escape and get to me first? ' And I don't think he'd be too happy that
his pilot's injuries not only were neglected but Tarrant was put in a
position where he was battered further (by the technician).>
Whole-hearted agreement here. As I've said before, with the shooting (if
they survived) there’d be one hell of a fight brewing. Without it, oh
dear... 'chide' would not be the word - blast from here to next century
would have been closer.
< I'm doing far too much rambling...>
So am I. Does someone want to start up that thread on Servalan’s
wardrobe, so that I’ll sit back and shut up?
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:04:06 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] what's so funny?
Message-ID: <36F06D25.949E8134@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Avona wrote:
> Not, of course, that I would ever quack like a duck.
Quack. Quack. Honk. Quack. Quack.Has anybody ever heard the CD Grunt?
There's some humor you should try.
Grins,
Mistral
--
"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:03:07 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] personal space
Message-ID: <19990318030309.27939.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-type: text/plain
Judith says:
<The unforgettable one is where he grabs Blake as an explosion goes off
and then instead of letting go when the explosion is over, he just stays
with his hands on Blake's waist for several seconds.>
Duel, yes? And what he says to Blake at the same time -
Blake: Do you have any better ideas? (followed the said explosion )
Avon: As a matter of fact...no I don't.
Blake: Does that mean you agree?
Avon: Do I have a choice?
Blake: Yes.
Avon: Then I agree.
He's actually lightened up from a few minutes before, almost (almost)
teasing.
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 19:11:36 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] More Dayna dynamics
Message-ID: <36F06EE7.156065EE@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Pherber@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 3/16/99 11:04:33 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> rilliara@juno.com writes:
>
> > Soolin may remind Dayna somewhat of her dead, blond sister.
>
> And even if not, Dayna *is* used to having a female confidant, so it seems
> pretty likely she would be most comfortable with a similar relationship with
> Soolin. It was probably more of a novelty for Soolin.
Really, this is a good point. I am enjoying this whole thread.
I was hoping for some interesting bits about Dayna (and of
course, Soolin), although I haven't much to contribute.
I've always considered the relationships in B7 very familial,
since they were pretty much stuck with each other. I'm
thinking that given another series, the Scorpio crew would
have become the closest thing Soolin had ever had to a
family since childhood.
Just IMHO
Mistral
--
"For a home, you need a family."--Soolin
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #104
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