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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 57
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Unusual pairings
[B7L] Re: body count
[B7L] Space Island One
Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Re: [B7L] Re: body count
[B7L] Avon vs. Blake
Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Re: [B7L] Re: safety
[B7L] Sarkoff & Tyce; Anna & Del
Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count
Re: [B7L] Safety
Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's bodycount
Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count
Re: [B7L] Re: safety / grandstanding
Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Re: [B7L] Unusual pairings
Re: [B7L] Safety
Re: [B7L] Safety
Re: [B7L] Avon vs. Blake
[B7L] Sarkoff & Tyce
Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Re: [B7L] Re: safety
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:58:38 GMT
From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Unusual pairings
Message-Id: <298286856MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
Judith said: "I sometimes suspect that there is no pairing so
improbable in B7 that no-one has ever written it. I can claim
what is possibly the only Travis1/Travis2 story."
Well over on the Space City list I think I've managed two over
the past year that no-one else has done. Admittedly they both
involved that most unusual of partners Og, once with Dayna
and once with Gan. I also did two odd Star Wars crossovers -
Avon/R2-D2 and Jenna/Chewbacca.
cheers
Steve Rogerson
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
"The workers united will never be ignited"
Guards! Guards! - Terry Pratchett
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 09:17:08 -0500 (EST)
From: NWOutsider <sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: body count
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980222090611.26688C-100000@alpha.bgsu.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sat, 21 Feb 1998 Carol A. McCoy wrote:
>The question, to my mind, is did
>Klyn work for Blake? Whether it is in a civilian capacity or as
>part of his rebel army (and that point is certainly debatable), I
>would assume that Blake is responsible for considering her welfare
>when he allows Tarrant to run loose and Avon to pop on down.
If she's a rebel and knows what Blake's up to, then perhaps
Blake figured she knew how to take care of herself . If an unarmed
and wounded guest on Liberator got away from him, Blake would
certainly rely on his companions to handle the situation. If Klyn is
a civil servant then I assume she's noticed that she works in a place
teeming with vicious criminals and has been trained to get out of
the way, but didn't. I also don't see why Blake should suppose that
Avon is going to storm around the base opening fire on everything
in sight without thinking. I don't think that's compatible with the
Avon Blake knew, and Blake doesn't have the advantage of viewing third
and fourth season episodes. I don't see why you hold Blake accountable for
every action that happens, or could possibly happen, in the base, why you
hold him accountable for everyone else's actions, or why he should be
held to Nostradamus-like powers of prophecy about who is going to do what.
>I hope you can see, Sue, from all of the above, that I wasn't
>flippantly trying to up Blake's body count by putting Klyn on
>his list. Or trying to be unfair to Blake. It's something
>that I've given a lot of thought to, and there are logical reasons
>why I made that judgment call.
You assumed she was a rebel. For me, unless she's definitely
one of Blake's people, she goes in a different column in the ledger.
She may or not be a rebel. We just don't know.
>I will grant you that the name "Tarrant" might set him off and
>he's also told us that he has to test everyone himself. But it's
>rather ironic that he goes from being over-cautious (testing Tarrant)
>to less cautious (letting Tarrant run off) at a point when he still
>needs to keep control of the situation.
It seems to me that at the point Tarrant runs away, Blake has
already decided that Tarrant is one of the good guys. What I find ironic
is Blake's instincts have become so spotty. He was never very trustful
to begin with but his judgments were always right until this episode.
>Avon doesn't have solid proof that Blake is involved with the technician,
>but he does have an unfortunate chain of circumstances that leads him
>to reach that conclusion. It wasn't any one thing, but the combined
>picture that set him off, or so I believe. There were two key patterns
>as I see it. Tarrant's getting beat up--Tarrant's telling him Blake
>betrayed them. Klyn's call for security--Blake's arrival, as if timed to
>answer that call.
What good does shooting Klyn achieve. She's already called for
back-up. Why is killing someone when you have no idea what's going
on the right thing to do. If you're going to kill someone when you
haven't got a clue about what's happening, how about the woman with
the gun standing next to the unarmed Blake who poses the only serious
threat. Why assume Blake has betrayed you when he says Tarrant got
it wrong, why not assume instead that something weird is happening
and you need to get out of there. Most importantly, why be there at all
under these circumstances when you could so easily have avoided it by
taking a minute to think anywhere along the way.
Top that with two men (Avon and Blake) who have
>apparently been under a great deal of stress for a very long time. As
>we saw, it was a tragedy in the making.
But there were options that Avon chose to ignore. And by focusing
solely on the last minute, the big decisions that Avon made early on are
ignored and the result is tendency by many to blame the dead. I wanted to
point out that there were many times when Avon, who made the big
decisions, had it in his power to change the course of what happened. No
one else's decisions are as important. Avon decided to go to GP without
knowing anything, Avon decided to barge around the base and kill people
without knowing anything.
>>"Hey, Blake, long time no see. So what've you been up to, dude?
>>Still rabble rousing? Why don't we get together...there's this place
>>called Freedom City, you might remember it...No, I lost track of the
>>others, why do you ask...?" Or have Vila do it, that might work even
>>better.
>
>Now, Sue, does that honestly sound like something Avon would do?
Yes, but with better dialogue, as I'm sure you knew. Avon
has used covert communications to set up plans in advance before
>I never said he didn't care about Blake. I said he didn't feel safe
>with him.
Either safety is not as important to Avon as you think it is, or
he believes that "winning is the only safety" and his best chance for
winning is with Blake.
>I understand. If Tarrant had died in Scorpio, averting the misunder-
>standing, would you at least keep the cheers restrained? ;-)
I make no promises. [note to self: have champagne crates delivered
to back door]
>I see. It's believable for Avon to be broken up over Blake, but
>amusing if he's broken up over Tarrant. Or am I misinterpreting?
Unlikely he's broken up over Tarrant. OK, and also amusing.
Sue
sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html
B.I.T.C.H. "It's not just what I do. It's who I am."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:51:29 GMT
From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Space Island One
Message-Id: <298287948MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
Last week's episode of Space Island One was familiar. A
strange looking artifact was floating outside the station. It got
itself on board the ship and appeared to have a will of its own.
Anyone who touched it got strange hallucinations. Eventually it
disolved and was found to contain an ornamental burial urn.
Remind anyone of a certain Tanith Lee episode of BlakeUs 7?
The director I noticed was Kevin Davies. I wonder if this is the
same Kevin Davies who worked on Hitch Hiker's Guide and Dr
Who and who directed a making of Dr Who documentary and
was working on a similar project for Blake's 7 before the BBC
pulled the plug on it. He said at a convention a couple of years
ago that most of the work he did on the Blake's 7 documentary
still exists at the BBC and it wouldn't take a lot more work to
get it into broadcastable shape.
I didn't notice who was the director on the other six episodes of
Space Island One that have been broadcast so far.
cheers
Steve Rogerson
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
"The workers united will never be ignited"
Guards! Guards! - Terry Pratchett
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 10:52:55 -0500 (EST)
From: brent@ntr.net
To: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Message-Id: <199802221552.KAA24648@rome.ntr.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Helen wrote:
>Blake is a big name hero, Avon and Vila criminals, period, as far as most
of the >population is concerned. They would not make good martyrs.
They were in the beginning, but not by that point. The Federation knows who
they are, I'm sure the people do, too. How could the people not? Look at
all the damage Avon and his crew have inflicted? All the worlds they have
been to. Even if they died, what might Blake have done upon hearing of
Avon's death? IMO, he wouldn't have been sitting on Gauda Prime very much
longer. His guilt over Avon's death may have been just enough of a catalyst
to get his mopey ass in gear again.
>Oh, and I love your thinking... if they die, Blake (who they think is
>deaad) won't die, so they will serve a noble purpose by shaking hands
>and agreeing to die like gentlemen. Well, I guess that thought just
>didn't occur to them. "Avon, if you die with me, you can't shoot Blake
>later, and he'll get our revenge against the Federation for doing this
>to us."
Of course that thought didn't occur to them, I never said that it did (and
if you weren't so blind in your fervent support for Avon, you would have
seen my thinking in the first place). The FACT remains that if Avon died, he
would not have been physically able to kill Blake. It isn't a matter of
whether they knew Blake was alive or not--Avon may or may not have, but if
dead, he could have never found out about Gauda Prime. It also isn't a
matter of Avon and Vila shaking hands and agreeing to die, either. Avon
could have simply chosen not to act on the impulse to murder Vila, they both
ended up living, so it obviously wasn't the ONLY viable option for survival,
yet Avon nearly overlooked that option by trying to kill Vila. In fact, he
would have overlooked that option and murdered Vila if a) that blast shield
door closed two seconds sooner, or b) he thought to look up in that shaft
where Vila was hiding. Oh, by the way, if Avon had died, he also couldn't
have led Soolin, Dayna, and Tarrant to their deaths on Gauda Prime even
though I am AWARE that he was not thinking about that while hunting Vila
simply because he couldn't have KNOWN. Yet.
I only ever meant to make one point about Avon's hunt for Vila and that was
that Avon turning on his crewman in a time of crisis to save his own skin
made me feel safer in Blake's crew--in this, I feel my thinking is sound. I
never said you couldn't take YOUR chances with him. By all means, do so,
but your naivete about the lengths to which he would stoop could get you
killed. (Geesh, I'm talking about this as if it were possible. Somebody
slap me.)
Really, I suppose I should have known that attacking Avon's character (moral
fabric, not the character himself) would have raised the ire of his
champions, but I had no idea that the justification for his morals would be
so emphatic even on such immoral ground as the murder of a loyal crewman to
prolong his own life.
Oh, and before anyone attacks my earlier position that they destroy Orac so
that it doesn't fall into Servalan's hands because Egrorian (sp) says that
the only thing that could destroy Orac is fire, please note that by the time
they came to their final option, they were out of the atmosphere due to the
lightening of the shuttle's load and Orac would have been destroyed by a
fiery re-entry. Just covering my ass before all the analytical Avon types
lynch me over that one.
Brent
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:22:13 EST
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: body count
Message-ID: <59360505.34f050b7@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-02-22 09:18:08 EST,Sue wrote:
<< Blake doesn't have the advantage of viewing third
and fourth season episodes. >>
This is the heart of reason Blake died. In two years both men have changed,
but both carry a picture of the other that has not. Thus, their expectations
don't match the reality. Blake is playing games that he wouldn't have before,
and has lost his ability to guage people. Avon is faced with a Blake that
isn't acting like "his" Blake, and is thinking of what, the Avalon android?The
Blake Clone from Weapon? The fake Blake of Terminal? I think he pulls the
trigger believing that it is one of these alternatives that is truly facing
him, that perhaps the "real' Blake is elsewhere? Only then he sees those
eyes.... I'll try to stay away from this topic after this. I'm beginning to
repeat myself. Look forward to seeing the other postings though. D. Rose
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:33:20 -0500 (EST)
From: brent@ntr.net
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon vs. Blake
Message-Id: <199802221633.LAA01952@rome.ntr.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Many arguments about Avon killing Blake on Gauda Prime have been based on
the wrong dialogue. After Tarrant accuses Blake of betraying them (with
that gleem in his eye because he just loves it that Avon's Holy Grail is
"evil"), the dialogue goes like this:
AVON: "Is it true?"
BLAKE: "Avon, it's me, Blake."
AVON: "Stand still."
Blake momentarily stops moving.
AVON: "Have you betrayed us? Have you betrayed me?"
During the next exchange, Blake underestimates the danger he is in and
starts walking toward Avon.
BLAKE: "Tarrant doesn't understand. I set all of this up. Avon, I was
waiting for you."
Bang, bang, bang.
(The rest is my opinion) Avon is not asking for confirmation that it is
Blake because I don't believe they have ever been aware of the Blake clone.
Avon is also sure he is not hallucinating, or being tricked, because Vila
has also established that it is Blake. Instead of confirming his identity,
then, Blake is addressing the question of betrayal by telling Avon that he
is Blake ("I'm Blake, would I ever betray you?"). Avon is still not sure,
however.
The thing that really gets me in this scene is the fact that Avon is the
person in whom Blake has bestowed the ultimate trust. Also, it is Blake in
whom Avon has bestowed the ultimate trust (which is amazing that Avon can
trust anyone, especially after learning of Anna's betrayal). Avon felt he
had no choice but to kill Blake. When they stare into each other's eyes as
Blake dies is amazing--I felt more emotion in that moment than I could ever
feel in the Star Trek universe. At that moment, Avon became Blake. If Avon
had survived, we would have seen a vastly different Avon in the fifth
season. But left as an ending in itself, "Blake" stands as one of the
greatest finales of all time.
Brent--so overcome by the emotion of Blake's 7 that he is going back into
Lurker mode to contemplate life, love, and liberty. (And because I'm getting
no writing of my own done ;) )
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:29:15 -0000
From: Alison Page <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Message-ID: <888165139.105322.0@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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brent said -
> (Geesh, I'm talking about this as if it were possible. Somebody
> slap me.)
Can I just say I love this list to bits these days.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 09:37:46 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: brent@ntr.net
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Message-ID: <34F0626A.6991@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> They were in the beginning, but not by that point. The Federation knows who
> they are, I'm sure the people do, too. How could the people not? Look at
> all the damage Avon and his crew have inflicted? All the worlds they have
> been to. Even if they died, what might Blake have done upon hearing of
> Avon's death? IMO, he wouldn't have been sitting on Gauda Prime very much
> longer. His guilt over Avon's death may have been just enough of a catalyst
> to get his mopey ass in gear again.
The People haven't watched the series. Everything done in the first two
season's was attributed to "Blake and his crew". The best informed, like
Tarrant or bounty hunters, knew the names of the others-- but it's like
being on a committee. You're pretty anonymous to anyone who isn't _very_
well informed.
Ans how will word of Avon's death get out? No reason for the killers to
publicize it, because no one's been rebelling in his name. The Scorpio
crew wouldn't have the means, and given it would consist of Tarrant(an
ex-pirate-type), Sooolin, and Dayna, they might try to kill Servalan to
get even for all she's done (Tarrant and Dayna would be in favor), but
the girls never seemed very political. I wouldn't assume they'd keep
fighting-- I don't say they wouldn't though, for who would have thought
Avon would take up the banner?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 09:50:38 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: Alison Page <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
CC: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Message-ID: <34F0656F.11C8@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Alison Page wrote:
>
> brent said -
>
> > (Geesh, I'm talking about this as if it were possible. Somebody
> > slap me.)
>
> Can I just say I love this list to bits these days.
>
> Alison
Yes, by all means. :^D
It's al compliment to us all.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 12:42:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Sondra Sweigman <sweigman@world.std.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Sarkoff & Tyce; Anna & Del
Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980222123415.9162A-100000@world.std.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
It's interesting that everyone who's spoken up on this subject says they
took Tyce for Sarkoff's daughter from the start. I'd be suspicious that
part of that was attributable to "already knowing" before seeing the
episode (ie, from other fans), except I think that's more likely tobe the
case for Anna and Del. At any rate, when I said we were "supposed to"
think that, I wasn't really considering whether the writer's intention
worked or not, just that it was clear to me that that *was* his intention.
Here's why: First, the dialogue is too intimate to be employer/employee.
Secondly, though the age difference suggests father and daughter, she
never *calls* him "Father." Nor does he say "my daughter" of her in
Blake's presence. The omission seems glaringly unnatural--unless seen in
the context of a deliberate attempt to mislead the viewer. Third (and for
me, this was the clincher), *Tarvin* takes them for lovers: In addressing
Sarkoff, he refers to Tyce as "your woman." Finally, when Tyce says
"Aren't I President Sarkoff's daughter?", it has the same ring of "here's
where we turn the tables onthe audience" as when Avon says "Maybe because
Anna was your sister."
Sondra
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:35:24 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count
Message-ID: <34ED161C.51A6@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Harriet Monkhouse wrote:
>
> I'm not talking morality
that's for NFs
> or sensible courses
the SJs will take care of that
> of action,
best left to to the SPs
> I'm talking plain accounting!
that's what NTs are good at
Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:42:54 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety
Message-ID: <34ED17DE.7157@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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J. I. Horner wrote:
> As a definite INTJ I can confirm that the project where I experienced the
> blackest humour and the most laughs was also the biggest disaster and the
> one with the most depressed (depressing) manager in charge. The worse it
> got, the more depressed he got and the more hysterical the team became -
> in the end his black depression actually lifted team morale.
>
:D I have visions of you in a John Cleese "Fawlty Towers" type scenario.
Or how about being on the project team subject to that dreadful Beta
technician in "Weapon"?
Did you laf in the face of your slackjawed leader; did he understand all
the snorfling?
Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:32:58 -0500 (EST)
From: brent@ntr.net
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Message-Id: <199802222032.PAA06564@rome.ntr.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Sorry if anyone gets two copies of this.
>Helen wrote:
>
>Blake is a big name hero, Avon and Vila criminals, period, as far as most
of the >population is concerned. They would not make good martyrs.
They were in the beginning, but not by that point. The Federation knows who
they are, I'm sure the people do, too. How could the people not? Look at
all the damage Avon and his crew have inflicted? All the worlds they have
been to. Even if they died, what might Blake have done upon hearing of
Avon's death? IMO, he wouldn't have been sitting on Gauda Prime very much
longer. His guilt over Avon's death may have been just enough of a catalyst
to get his mopey ass in gear again.
>Oh, and I love your thinking... if they die, Blake (who they think is
>deaad) won't die, so they will serve a noble purpose by shaking hands
>and agreeing to die like gentlemen. Well, I guess that thought just
>didn't occur to them. "Avon, if you die with me, you can't shoot Blake
>later, and he'll get our revenge against the Federation for doing this
>to us."
Of course that thought didn't occur to them, I never said that it did (and
if you weren't so blind in your fervent support for Avon, you would have
seen my thinking in the first place). The FACT remains that if Avon died, he
would not have been physically able to kill Blake. It isn't a matter of
whether they knew Blake was alive or not--Avon may or may not have, but if
dead, he could have never found out about Gauda Prime. It also isn't a
matter of Avon and Vila shaking hands and agreeing to die, either. Avon
could have simply chosen not to act on the impulse to murder Vila, they both
ended up living, so it obviously wasn't the ONLY viable option for survival,
yet Avon nearly overlooked that option by trying to kill Vila. In fact, he
would have overlooked that option and murdered Vila if a) that blast shield
door closed two seconds sooner, or b) he thought to look up in that shaft
where Vila was hiding. Oh, by the way, if Avon had died, he also couldn't
have led Soolin, Dayna, and Tarrant to their deaths on Gauda Prime even
though I am AWARE that he was not thinking about that while hunting Vila
simply because he couldn't have KNOWN. Yet.
I only ever meant to make one point about Avon's hunt for Vila and that was
that Avon turning on his crewman in a time of crisis to save his own skin
made me feel safer in Blake's crew--in this, I feel my thinking is sound. I
never said you couldn't take YOUR chances with him. By all means, do so,
but your naivete about the lengths to which he would stoop could get you
killed. (Geesh, I'm talking about this as if it were possible. Somebody
slap me.)
Really, I suppose I should have known that attacking Avon's character (moral
fabric, not the character himself) would have raised the ire of his
champions, but I had no idea that the justification for his morals would be
so emphatic even on such immoral ground as the murder of a loyal crewman to
prolong his own life.
Oh, and before anyone attacks my earlier position that they destroy Orac so
that it doesn't fall into Servalan's hands because Egrorian (sp) says that
the only thing that could destroy Orac is fire, please note that by the time
they came to their final option, they were out of the atmosphere due to the
lightening of the shuttle's load and Orac would have been destroyed by a
fiery re-entry. Just covering my ass before all the analytical Avon types
lynch me over that one.
Brent
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 15:53:41 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" <BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's bodycount
Message-ID: <199802221554_MC2-3445-29A3@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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This is the message Carol asked me to forward, because she sent it to me
instead of the list and then deleted it.
Harriet wrote:
>Carol continued our debate:
>>>I'm not talking morality or sensible courses
>>>of action, I'm talking plain accounting!
>>
>>But we're not counting by who did deed, but rather
>>by who was the fearless leader who put his
>>follower in the position to be snuffed. Which makes
>>Klyn part of Blake's total.
>
>This is precisely the point at issue: I understand that we're talking
about
>the bodycounts of followers, not kills, but I'm complaining that it's not
>fair in this sort of competition to be able to sabotage the other
>competitor - by shooting his followers to make him look less competent.
Harriet, splendid sports analogy. More on that later. Back to your
point... If Avon had shot Klyn to sabotage the contest, then most certaily
Klyn would not be put on Blake's list. But Avon didn't know there was a
contest and he didn't know Klyn worked for Blake.
>It's like Jayasuriya, Shahid Afridi and wide balls (and if you can follow
>this, you can follow anything).
I wouldn't say I can follow *anything*, but I am a sports fan and found
this fascinating. <g>
> Some months ago, there was an argument on
>the cricket statisticians' list about whether wide balls (defined as balls
>passing out of reach of the batsman) should be counted in the record of
>balls received by a batsman. Some people argued that the batsman did face
>the wide ball, so it counted. More of us argued that, by definition, the
>batsman couldn't score any runs off the wide (unlike a no-ball, the other
>illegal delivery), so it was unfair to include it when measuring the
>batsman's scoring-rate.
I take it that this is solely in regards to the records book, because
surely if it affected the outcome of the game, a ruling would have long ago
been made. Leaving me to assume that wide balls do not count against the
batsman. Do they count against the bowler? Is he/she penalized if the
wide ball count gets high?
>And we pointed to the case of Sanath Jayasuriya,
>who scored the fastest hundred in one-day international cricket - 48 balls
>(excluding any wides) in April 1996. A few months later, Jayasuriya was
>bowling to a youngster called Shahid Afridi who was to beat his record by
>reaching 100 in 37 balls (excluding any wides). Had wides counted in
>Afridi's innings, and had Jayasuriya been more concerned with personal
>glory than his team's interests, he could have stopped Afridi from taking
>the record by bowling lots of wides at him.
I'd definitely have to agree with those of you who argued that counting
wides could lead to bowlers into temptation, if a record such as
described above was at stake. I would like to think that the noble
character of sportsmen would prevent that, but then I think of ear
biting, coach choking, and spitting in faces.
>Likewise, had Blake realised that he and Avon were competing for the title
>of Leader with Fewer Dead Followers, he could have sabotaged Avon's
chances
>by shooting the Scorpio crew. But that would be absurd. Therefore I
argue
>that dead followers killed by a direct competitor (ie Klyn by Avon) should
>be disqualified from the scoring.
But I have to argue that Avon didn't know that a record was at stake.
If that had been a factor, then the rules of the body count would
definitely have to be amended to consider the possibility of deliberate
sabotage.
>Hanneke asked:
>>Thin ice, Harriet. Now tell the world which
>>one of Avon's gorgeous, tall, slender, curly
>>haired companions you would have *liked*
>>Blake to shoot?
>
>Gorgeous, I can't say, but how many curly-haired companions did Avon have?
>Count the head.
<sniff> But I don't think Blake would have cheated, anyway. Now Avon is
another story... ;-)
Carol McCoy
I responded:
<<But I told you I was accounting, pure and simple, without ref to
morality, sensible actions, or for that matter motive!
Anyway, how do you that Avon's real motivation in going to Gauda Prime
wasn't "Damn, that bloody Blake always gets the credit for rescuing his
friends. Whereas nearly everyone I've met in fourth season ends up dead.
Time for me to track the sod down and push up his tally a bit.">>
I then decided we'd never stop talking at cross purposes on this topic, and
started a much more interesting private conversation about cricket.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 13:21:25 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: pussnboots@geocities.com
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Blake's body count
Message-ID: <34F096D4.4E2B@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Pat Patera wrote:
>
> Harriet Monkhouse wrote:
> >
> > I'm not talking morality
> that's for NFs
> > or sensible courses
> the SJs will take care of that
> > of action,
> best left to to the SPs
> > I'm talking plain accounting!
> that's what NTs are good at
>
> Pat P
Before I absolutely loose my mind over this whole personality thing,
will someone please give me a run down or tell me where to find how this
classification thing works? I would love to know where I fit in, as well
as how the B7 crew got classified.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 10:41:18 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: safety / grandstanding
Message-ID: <34F0714E.213B@geocities.com>
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Louise Rutter wrote:
> Personally I think the Warlord alliance was the best idea either Blake or
> Avon ever showed, though Avon was hardly the ideal person to promote group
> unity amongst squabbling peoples. This is what Blake _should_ have been
> doing in the years he was with Liberator, instead of blowing up the odd
> base here and there. Blake could have created links and treaties between
> neutrals such as Lindor, Albian, Horizon and used Liberator to act as
> go-between. Blake was the sort of person who could have held it together.
I like to think this is how Avalon worked; quietly, behind the scenes,
knitting together a coalition of worlds. And this is the sad irony about
Blake; that whatever the Federation did to his mental state, it caused
him to put personal revenge (blowing up the odd base here and there)
before the real power of politics - forming coalitions.
Speking of politics - and the recent posts on Blake's grandstanding:
Grandstanding in the political arena is not a bad thing; it is a good
thing, a necessary thing. For how else can one get the public's (or the
crew's) attention, jar them out of their internal dialogue and kindle
them to action? Yes, Blake grandstanded on many occasions - but not
nearly enough. He should have been grandstanding for audiences of entire
planets, so that the populace would embrace the idea of Strength Through
Unity. (see? Servalan was the better politician. No wonder she was in
control!)
Blake's charisma is only hinted at, such as when Governor LeGrande says
"No, you are the only one they would all follow." Evidently Blake once
had this ability, and demonstrated it in mobilizing Earth rebels
(Freedom Party). But he has lost it by the time we meet him on board the
London. Or has he? He mobilized the prisoners to act. Blake earned the
Liberator. The others never really contest that fact, not even Avon. We
humans respect the ability to grandstand. Look at how we idolize rock
stars, etc. The more outrageous their grandstanding (Madonna, Prince,
Aerosmith, Mick Jagger) the more we love them.
Pat P
PS Does this let Tramilla off the hook for further elaboration on her
grandstanding remark?
Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 10:58:31 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Message-ID: <34F07557.212B@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Helen Krummenacker wrote:
>
> The People haven't watched the series. Everything done in the first two
> season's was attributed to "Blake and his crew". The best informed, like
> Tarrant or bounty hunters, knew the names of the others-- but it's like
> being on a committee. You're pretty anonymous to anyone who isn't _very_
> well informed.
YeGads! You've found another pothole in the show. Lack of a PR hack on
crew. Sherlock Holmes had Watson to publicize his deeds. Xena had
Gabrielle. Superman had Lois Lane. But who writes down the exploits of
Blake? Where is their Boswell? Yes, we hear a commissioner tell Servalan
that every event everywhere is attributed to Blake. The Freedom Party
must have had a decent PR firm. But who does that on Liberator? Perhaps
Orac is used in that capacity and we're just not shown. I can hear him
sputtering: "You want *me* to send out 1,000 press releases? What do I
look like, a fax machine?"
Publicist Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 10:44:57 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Unusual pairings
Message-ID: <34F07229.57D4@geocities.com>
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STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk wrote:
> I can claim
> what is possibly the only Travis1/Travis2 story."
oh my! I can't imagine! ...
> I also did two odd Star Wars crossovers -
> Avon/R2-D2
brrrrrrrrr
> and Jenna/Chewbacca.
gag me with a spoon! ':o
but you haven't done Og/Chewbacca?
(I can see the hairballs fly!)
Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:12:11 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety
Message-ID: <34F0788B.328F@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> Blake ... also might not be as harmless as he looks.
Harmless? HARMLESS!!! A great, lumbering brute, dirt smeared and
horribly scarred, wild-eyed and disheveled, a known fanatic bent on mass
destruction, found spinning webs in a hole at the center of a wasp's
nest of cutthroats and criminals, and you call him ...
<sputter, choke, gag, grape soda spewing out my nose> HARMLESS?!?!
> Assuming someone is
> harmless is a great way to get killed in Blake's 7's universe.
Just ask Arlen :)
Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:46:06 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: pussnboots@geocities.com
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety
Message-ID: <34F0AAAE.75C6@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Pat, I don't know why I bother trying to explain Avon to those who do
not understand. You are so good at it.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 11:06:08 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon vs. Blake
Message-ID: <34F07720.3737@geocities.com>
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brent@ntr.net wrote:
<big snip>
I felt more emotion in that moment than I could ever
> feel in the Star Trek universe.
That's because nobody ever dies in Trek - I am never the least bit
troubled by any of the "deadly" aliens, anomolies, etc. that are tossed
at the crews of these shows, for I *know* that all will be fine and
continue their dreary lives, week after week, having exactly the same
dull adventures. One of the best things about B7 is that they truly did
different things every ep. Imagine how boring it would be if they blew
up a base every show? Sorta like how dull it got to see Cally possessed
every show ;)
>But left as an ending in itself, "Blake" stands as one of the
> greatest finales of all time.
Absolutely! A finale that launched a thousand PGPs
> ...going back into
> Lurker mode to contemplate life, love, and liberty. (And because I'm getting
> no writing of my own done ;)
aw, don't go!
but before you do; what are you writing?
Nosey Pat P
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 12:16:59 +1300
From: Nicola Collie <nicola.collie@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
To: B7-list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Sarkoff & Tyce
Message-Id: <l03130303b116542e95fe@[139.80.16.149]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I've known about the nature of the relationship between Tyce and Sarkoff
for a while, so I'm dredging into my memories a bit here to go back to
pre-knowledge days. I have to say, I originally thought Tyce was Sarkoff's
driver/bodyguard/factotum. This was based purely on subconscious prejudices
ingrained by experience in one society, to wit:
- "Tyce" sounded (to me) like a surname - in the world I'm accustomed to,
one could address a servant, but not a relation/lover, in this way.
O'course, in B7 there's ample precedent for addressing one's lover by hir
surname :).
- We first see her dressed in what appears to be livery, driving the car
while he sits in the back seat. Pushed that "she servant/he boss" button in
my subconscious.
- Sarkoff's first line to Tyce:
SARKOFF: Thank you, Tyce. You may put the automobile under cover now.
Politely phrased, but tastes like an order to me.
- Sure, Tyce is outspoken with Sarkoff - she comes across a bit like that
wench we're musing on over on TheOtherList :) - but I discounted that as an
intimacy coming out of long acquaintance and shared adversity. Shame I
can't think of any actual examples, but I was unsurprised at an (apparent)
underling mouthing off at her boss. Her outbursts seem to come from a
concern for his lack of motivation/interest.
Also, re Sondra's points:
- Tarvin may assume that any woman is property of the man she is with, no
matter what the relationship. Hence "your woman". More button-pushing - his
appearance reminds me of a culture whose men control all the freedom of the
women in their families (possibly an outdated impression on my part,
certainly based on vicarious rather than actual experience).
- According to the lysator transcript, Tyce does address Sarkoff as father
- earlier in the scene where she announces she's his daughter. Blake is
present for the latter revelation. This doesn't refute the "turning tables
on the audience" point Sondra made.
[Tarvin is threatening to detonate Tyce's collar - Sarkoff has a gun on him]
TYCE: Shoot him, father. You owe it to me. You owe it to our people.
TARVIN: Put it down, Sarkoff, you can't win. You haven't got the will for it.
TYCE: Do it!
BLAKE: [Enters with Jenna] Tarvin.
[Tarvin whirls and vainly tries to detonate Blake's neckband.
Blake laughs. Tarvin whirls back and Sarkoff shoots him.
Jenna kneels beside his body.]
SARKOFF: So it really means that much to you?
TYCE: Aren't I President Sarkoff's daughter? Perhaps I just sounded as
though I meant it.
That's my rationalisation for my impression of the Tyce Sarkoff
relationship. Purely a response to some button-pushing (intentional or not)
on the part of the writer. Of course, the roles of daughter and servant are
not mutually exclusive, and lover could also be added to the mix in an
incest-accepting society. Which we have no evidence for here.
Bounty is one of my favourite episodes. Jenna gets some cool development,
Vila gets to fiddle with dangerous electronic gadgets (and tell Avon to
shut up!), and I enjoy the Avon Vila dynamics throughout.
Relating my impressions for the purpose of friendly debate. YMMV, etc
ttfn, Nicola (Devil's Advocate for hire, reasonable rates)
---
Nicola Collie
Dunedin, New Zealand
nicola.collie@stonebow.otago.ac.nz
"It just occurred to me that, as the description of a highly sophisticated
technological achievement, "Avon's gadget works" seems to lack a certain
style."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 10:33:24 +1100 (EST)
From: Gordon Burgess & Carol Mason <gcb7@magna.com.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Message-Id: <199802222333.KAA09721@magna.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Brent wrote:
>Really, I suppose I should have known that attacking Avon's character (moral
>fabric, not the character himself) would have raised the ire of his
>champions, but I had no idea that the justification for his morals would be
>so emphatic even on such immoral ground as the murder of a loyal crewman to
>prolong his own life.
I don't think either Avon or Vila could honestly be called loyal crewman.
Both of them will just about always put their own interests first.
However, Avon could rationalise his behaviour easily. He, not Vila, could
best organise the new Alliance he was trying to build. He could attract the
planetary leaders and threaten, bluff whatever it took, them into joining.
Vila could not, therefore, on that one reason alone, Avon deserved to live
over Vila. No one is claming Avon's judgement was the correct one from a
moral stance. But by following Avon's rationale , it was the equitable way
to go.
>Oh, and before anyone attacks my earlier position that they destroy Orac so
>that it doesn't fall into Servalan's hands because Egrorian (sp) says that
>the only thing that could destroy Orac is fire, please note that by the time
>they came to their final option, they were out of the atmosphere due to the
>lightening of the shuttle's load and Orac would have been destroyed by a
>fiery re-entry. Just covering my ass before all the analytical Avon types
>lynch me over that one.
>Brent
According to Egrorian, the shuttle was coming down in a soft damp area if I
remember correctly. Also, didn't he tell Servalan that Orac would survive
crash and only be a little dented?
Then by the time the shuttle and altered its angle of ascent high enough for
the shuttle to burn up enough to destroy Orac, Avon had solved the problem.
Catch You Later,
Carol.
Semper Fidelis
Carol "Hondo" Mason < gcb7@magna.com.au >
*******************************************************************
* "Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity" *
* "Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film" *
* "Friends may come and go, but enemies tend to accumlate" *
* "If you can't convince them, confuse them" *
* "Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk" *
*******************************************************************
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:21:39 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: Gordon Burgess & Carol Mason <gcb7@magna.com.au>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: safety
Message-ID: <34F0C113.6D7@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >Oh, and before anyone attacks my earlier position that they destroy Orac so
> >that it doesn't fall into Servalan's hands because Egrorian (sp) says that
> >the only thing that could destroy Orac is fire, please note that by the time
> >they came to their final option, they were out of the atmosphere due to the
> >lightening of the shuttle's load and Orac would have been destroyed by a
> >fiery re-entry. Just covering my ass before all the analytical Avon types
> >lynch me over that one.
>
> >Brent
>
> According to Egrorian, the shuttle was coming down in a soft damp area if I
> remember correctly. Also, didn't he tell Servalan that Orac would survive
> crash and only be a little dented?
> Then by the time the shuttle and altered its angle of ascent high enough for
> the shuttle to burn up enough to destroy Orac, Avon had solved the problem.
>
> Catch You Later,
>
> Carol.
>
> Semper Fidelis
Gotta back Brent on this one (by the way, people accusing me of being
_unthinkingly_ a defender of Avon, please note, I do acknowlege good
points).
His idea, and others, was to space ORAC instead of Vila. If this was
done, ORAC should burn up on reentry. Of course, Avon doesn't stumble
over the block, and Vila and Avon both die miserable painful, lingering
deaths as the shuttle goes down, if Vila doesn't shut the airlock behind
Avon and space him along with ORAC. (Bt the way, would you draw lots for
surival with a sleight-of-hand artist? I'm married to a magician. They
KNOW how to force a draw). So they go down together, knowing int their
souls they have the honor of dying together more slowly and painfully
than if one of them had turned on the other. Ah, friendship.
(And no, I don't think I would have spaced anyone. I think _I_ would
have been suspicious of how a ship intened to lift out of orbit could be
too heavy to do so, and searched for the damn piece of heavy matter.)
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #57
*************************************