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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 98 : Issue 53

Today's Topics:
	 Re: [B7L] RE: blakes7-d Digest V98 #51
	 Re: [B7L] Safety
	 [B7L] Size does matter
	 [B7L] Safety
	 [B7L] Avon and Vila
	 [B7L] Avon and Vila
	 Re: [B7L] Countdown: Why Blake Stayed on Albian
	 [B7L] Neutral Zone
	 RE: [B7L] Re: Safety
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
	 Re: [B7L] Safety
	 Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
	 [B7L] Neutral Zone
	 Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
	 Re: [B7L] Safety
	 Re: [B7L] Safety
	 Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety)
	 Re: [B7L] Safety
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Vila and Plagues
	 [B7L] The difference (think this used to be Character morality)
	 [B7L] Alphas (was Avon and Vila)
	 Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety)
	 Re: [B7L] Alphas (was Avon and Vila)
	 [B7L] oracle of avon
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
	 Re: [B7L] Size does matter
	 Re: [B7L] Alphas (was Avon and Vila)
	 RE: [B7L] Re: Safety
	 Re: [B7L] Safety
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
	 Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
	 Re: [B7L] Alphas (was Avon and Vila)
	 Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
	 Re: [B7L] Countdown: Why Blake Stayed on Albian
	 [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V98 #52
	 Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
	 [B7L] Hi

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:57:52 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] RE: blakes7-d Digest V98 #51
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.09-0218085752-06cRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1

On Wed 18 Feb, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> Kinkade.Carol wrote:
> > But, as we saw, the destruction of Star One DID NOT bring down the Federation.

> Nothing much to add, but you are _so_ right, I though it should be
> repeated. Star One's destruction cost lives and only shook up the
> Federation a little. Servalan never did get killed, so we never learn if
> her death would have made a difference. But she did do an awful lot to
> make the Federation expand. And the destruction of the Aurons was her
> personal life involving the destruction of a species, not an actual
> professional-Federation-typ plot. So, maybe, killing her _would_ have
> made a difference.

But destroying Star One *did* come very close to destroying the Federation.

It was destroyed in the fighting by the Andromadans.  That and the losses of
ships the Federation suffered weakened the Federation enormously.

'There isn't a Federation any more,' Tarrant said in 'Harvest of Kairos'.  There
were other references to a weakened Federation too in other epsiodes.  In fact,
the main reson for the introduction of Pylene 50 was to allow the Federation to
control planets that it could not control otherwise.

There were many uprisings after the fall of Star One, most notably on Earth
itself.  In fact, one of these was just about to succeed, had already taken
Servalan's presidential palace, was holding her prisoner, when - whoops, oh
dear, Avon killed the leader of the Resistance... 

I don't think you can really blame the failure of the uprising on poor old
Blake.

The other reason why the uprisings failed was because they lacked a leader early
on.  Blake never made it back to Earth as he and Avon had originally planned. 
We will probably never know what happened when his life capsule landed, but it
seems likely that he was captured and deprived of his teleport bracelet.  The
attitude of people in episodes like 'Voice From the Past' suggests that Blake's
presence on Earth would have made an enormous difference after the destruction
of Star One.

If he'd had the opportunity to do what he originally planned, he could well have
succeeded.

Judith

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention  
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:43:49 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.09-0218084349-313Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1

On Wed 18 Feb, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> IMHO, the deaths in "Blake" are as much Blake's fault as Avon's.
> 
> Avon: Is it true? Have you betrayed us? Have you betrayed me?
> 
> Blake: Avon, I set this all up-- (bang bang bang)
> 
> THOSE were NOT the words to use when someone asks if they've been
> trapped. D'oh! Nor does one try to get a paranoiac's friend to think one
> is an enemy to test him. Nor do you play mind games on people you've
> known for years because you can't trust your judgement. And of course,
> it was one of Blake's current people who summond the Federation troops,
> was it not?

They are however exactly the words you would use to reassure an old friend.  How
is Blake supposed to know that Avon has changed from the man he knew into a man
on the edge of losing it totally?

If Avon had been the man Blake remembered there would have been no shooting.

If Blake had been the man Avon remembered there would have been no shoting
either (because the old Blake would have felt no need to test Tarrant)

Blake wasn't playing mind games with Avon.  Avon was the one man he trusted
without question.  Think about it - the bounty hunter base is his big secret -
he tells Avon that he set it all up.  He's trying to show Avon how much faith he
has in him by sharing his most important piece of information with him.

Suppose Blake had just answered 'no' when asked if he had betrayed Avon.  Do you
think Avon would have belived that in his current state of mind?  I think he'd
have pulled the trigger anyway because he'd have assumed Blake was lying.

Judith

PS.  There are two easy routes for any Avon fan to come to appreciate Blake. 
Firstly you have to come to see him through Avon's eyes.  Ignore the words,
watch the body langauge, especially in episdes like 'Duel'.  Then consider
Avon's actions in episodes like 'Terminal'.  Secondly, you have to understand
what Blake saw in Avon.  Being an Avon fan, you're already a large part of the
way there.

Avon's biggest unspoken need (as I see him) was for trust.  Blake was the one
who ignored Avon's criminal past and literally entrusted his life to Avon on
several occassions.

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention  
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:03:08 GMT
From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Size does matter
Message-Id: <298242934MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>

Is there any way the digests couldbe made smaller and more
frequent? At the moment they are too big for my server and
regular I get chunks chopped out of them as a result. About
two-thirds the current size would be about right.

cheers
Steve Rogerson

Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

"The workers united will never be ignited"
Guards! Guards! - Terry Pratchett

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:23:15 -0500
From: Susan Beth <sbs@world.std.com>
To: blake7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Safety
Message-Id: <3.0.4.32.19980218102315.00696150@world.std.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

 >You wrote:
>
>>Just to keep things fair, Blake's body count was a tad higher than 
>>that. We have Jenna, Klyn, the technician Soolin shot, Deva, and any 
>>other of Blake's people who were killed when the Federation
>>popped by for a spot of mayhem.

Also Nova (moussed to death) and any others killed in his rebellion on the
London, plus the ones killed in the fight on Cygnus Alpha -- in essence
they had "enlisted" in Blake's Causes, so their deaths belong in his
column, too.


Susan Beth


(sbs@world.std.com)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 1998 11:31:33 -0800
From: "Ma.James" <ma@ssdgwy.mdc.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon and Vila
Message-ID: <n1324320556.75773@SSDGWY.mdc.com>

>Re: is Avon an Alpha?

We all know Avon is an Alpha Elite just because he's so darn special...

Shela Ma
(an Avon/Tarrant fan)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Feb 1998 11:39:59 -0800
From: "Kinkade.Carol" <kinkade.carol@ssdgwy.mdc.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon and Vila
Message-ID: <n1324319949.14954@SSDGWY.mdc.com>

>The Scene goes something like this:
>
>Avon :"Before I decided to put my talents to more profitable use....."
>Jenna: "And got arrested"
>Avon: "I handled the computer analysis for a research project into matter
>transmission.  It was based on a new alloy...."
>Blake: "Aquatar"

Surely Avon had to be an Alpha to be in a position of that much responsibility. 
He says he handled 'THE' computer analysis for the research project, which
indicates he alone was responsible for ALL computer analysis.  It doesn't seem a
Gamma or Beta would be given that kind of position.

Carol K
(AVON RULES!!!!)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:21:06 -0600
From: "Lorna B." <msdelta@magnolia.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Countdown: Why Blake Stayed on Albian
Message-Id: <199802182023.OAA19267@pemberton.magnolia.net>

Sondra said:
>> Carol says Blake wasn't doing Avon any good by staying and making
>> Vila stay.  I disagree.  By staying Blake insured that the teleport would
>> not be in use (transporting Vila and/or himself back to the ship) when
>> Avon needed it.  Since that "need" could have become very urgent indeed
>> and it takes time to reconfigure the teleport coordinates, Blake's
>> decision was actually a highly pragmatic one.

Jenni said:
>Brilliant point, Sondra. I never felt that Blake was making a pointless
>gesture, but I couldn't put my finger on why. I think you've hit the nail
>on the head. If I remember correctly, it took about 6-8 seconds to teleport
>up, which wouldn't have left much time to reset the teleport co-ordinates.
>Just another example of Blake keeping his head in a crisis!
Though Carol's later post on the teleport coordinates--to reset, or not to
reset, that is the question--renders this argument rather moot, I'd like to
add that it would have been *nice* had Blake mentioned to Vila the *reason*
he was preventing him from teleporting.  A quick sentence along the lines of
"It takes too long to reset the teleport coordinates if we have to pull Avon
out" or "Don't worry, we'll have enough lag time to get out of here after
the bomb goes" might have made some difference.  Or at least served as
marginal assurance to an obviously very frightened crewmate.  It really
bothers me that Blake appears so oblivious to this and would treat a
colleague and friend like that.

Lorna B.
"You ever flown a flying saucer?  After that, sex seems trite."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:47:52 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Neutral Zone
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.09-0218094752-9eeRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1

It looks as though Micheal Keating may be dubious for the Neutral Zone.  He's
doing theatre work in the wrong part of the country.  If he does make it, it
certainly won't be for the whole convention.

Gareth still seems okay so far.  

Judith

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention  
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:13:47 -0000
From: Louise Rutter <Louise.Rutter@btinternet.com>
To: "'B7 Lysator'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: Safety
Message-ID: <01BD3CB4.4E7AEA60@host5-99-49-112.btinternet.com>

Brent wrote re Orbit:

>this isn't a matter of asking someone to lay
>their life down for you, but using your gun and hunting them down to MAKE
>them lay down their life for you

Sorry, but it _is_ about asking someone to die for you. If Avon does 
nothing, they both die and that's pointless. Vila isn't the sort who makes 
momentous decisions in a crisis and Avon knows that. So Avon figures that 
either he sacrifices himself to save Vila or he dumps Vila out of the 
airlock. Vila certainly doesn't expect Avon to jump out for him, so why 
does most of fandom  seem to expect it of him? Avon makes a lot of bad 
decisions that I would criticise him for, but his actions on the Orbit 
shuttle are not something I can blame him for.

Louise

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:24:30 -0000
From: "Jennifer Beavan" <J.Beavan@btinternet.com>
To: <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
Message-Id: <E0y5I1B-0006PT-00@rhenium>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Helen said. >If there was a 15% chance of survival, I'm
> betting he would have taken the chance and let Vila have the safer
> course, but there was seemingly no loopholes. >

Odd though, isn't it, that "genius leader" Avon didn't use that fine
logical brain to question what was going on. Problem, suggestion, shoot,
don't think - much like "Blake" in fact.

Jennifer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:01:49 -0000
From: "Jennifer Beavan" <J.Beavan@btinternet.com>
To: <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety
Message-Id: <E0y5I1A-0006PT-00@rhenium>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith said
> If Blake had been the man Avon remembered there would have been no
shooting
> either (because the old Blake would have felt no need to test 
Tarrant>

Do people really think Tarrant's words were so crucial? If Blake had walked
into the tracking gallery and met Avon without Tarrant being present would
events have been altered?

Jennifer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:58:12 -0000
From: Ian Lay <ian@pacific-cc.demon.co.uk>
To: "Kinkade.Carol" <kinkade.carol@ssdgwy.mdc.com>, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
Message-ID: <01bd3caf$ecef6fe0$f2dadec2@pacific-cc.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Carol wrote:


>
>Surely Avon had to be an Alpha to be in a position of that much
responsibility.
>He says he handled 'THE' computer analysis for the research project, which
>indicates he alone was responsible for ALL computer analysis.  It doesn't
seem a
>Gamma or Beta would be given that kind of position.
>


Oh I agree.  I believe that Avon is an Alpha.  It's just that it never seems
to reveal that fact in the series.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Ian "If I could spell I would be dangerust" Lay
///
:-)
\\\
Watford Internet Football Club
ian@pacific-cc.demon.co.uk or
wifc@wfc.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:19:14 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
Message-Id: <E0y5Iq8-000549-00@post.mail.demon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Louise says re: Orbit

> either he sacrifices himself to save Vila or he dumps Vila out of the 
> airlock. Vila certainly doesn't expect Avon to jump out for him, so why 
> does most of fandom  seem to expect it of him? Avon makes a lot of bad 
> decisions that I would criticise him for, but his actions on the Orbit 
> shuttle are not something I can blame him for.

That's it exactly. I really wonder what people think Avon should have done
in that situation? The moral position between the two of them was precisely
equal. By hiding in a cupboard Vila gave Avon two choices - die to save
him, or die in the crash with him. Vila was being just as ruthless as Avon
- neither was prepared to die for the other. And why should they? Vila is
not Avon's child, Avon has no obligation to choose his own death any more
than Vila does.

I adore Vila and Avon, I just think some situations don't have a way out -
in 'real life' Avon doesn't find the superdense matter. In real life one
person kills the other, or they both die. The 'nice' thing for Avon and
Vila to do would have been to go down together (ermm.. rephrase that) and
then they would have both been dead.

Alison

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 18:35:55 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Neutral Zone
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.09-0218183555-572Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1

Micheal Keating will not be at the Neutral Zone as he is in a play until 28th
March.  (I just checked with the con organiser).  Gareth Thomas is still a
confirmed guest.  The Neutral Zone hope to be able to invite Michael to their
summer party when that comes round.

Judith
-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention  
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:01:32 +0000
From: Julia Jones <Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
Message-ID: <Y+H2eFAc4z60EwIs@jajones.demon.co.uk>

In message <n1324320556.75773@SSDGWY.mdc.com>, "Ma.James"
<ma@ssdgwy.mdc.com> writes
>>Re: is Avon an Alpha?
>
>We all know Avon is an Alpha Elite just because he's so darn special...
>
>Shela Ma
>(an Avon/Tarrant fan)
>
Been reading Sue Clerc's website, have we?
-- 
Julia Jones

"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
        The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:27:42 PST
From: "Sam Blume" <samblume@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety
Message-ID: <19980219002743.615.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

You wrote:

>IMHO, the deaths in "Blake" are as much Blake's fault as Avon's.

	It looks like others have competently dealt with your...errr...
post. All I'm going to add is poor Blake's like a coed at a frat 
party, isn't he, just askin' fer it. And while we're on the subject
Vila ought to have thrown himself off the shuttle, Cally shoulda
known better than to stay in the only shelter on Terminal...Is
there anything else we can clear Avon of and charge Blake with
while we're here...I think syphillis, smallpox, and the ebola
virus were already claimed...the rise of the Third Reich, El Nino 
and pinkeye are still available I think. <bg>

Just MODO,

Sam Blume

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 16:38:56 PST
From: "Sam Blume" <samblume@hotmail.com>
To: blake7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety
Message-ID: <19980219003900.10768.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain

You wrote:
>
>Also Nova (moussed to death) and any others killed in his rebellion 
>on the London, plus the ones killed in the fight on Cygnus Alpha -- 
>in essence they had "enlisted" in Blake's Causes, so their deaths 
>belong in his column, too.

Nova, sure. IMODO, the only true "crew" were the "army of 5 and him" in 
the inner room and on Cygnus Alpha, I'd only count Gan. The others 
were...like the all the people who accidentally snuffed it when Avon
and company destroyed the Thaarn's place. If the rule is going
to extend to associates and not just crew, Hal and Lauren Mellanby,
Groff, a couple of people in Moloch, Plaxton, Mueller and his
ladyfriend, Neebrox, Gerren, Kieller and others I'm forgetting. 
Zeeona, maybe. 

Just MODO,

Sam Blume



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:52:25 -0500
From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy)
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety)
Message-ID: <199802190052.TAA14880@yfn.ysu.edu>

Harriet wrote:

>Hey, Klyn is an Avon kill, so if we are making a direct comparison of Blake
>and Avon follower-bodycounts it's a bit hard on Blake to put her in.  Silly
>Blake not to shoot a few of Avon's companions to tilt the balance back
>again!

Well, it's not as if Avon shot her because he was trying to up Blake's
bodycount.

What would you have Avon do in that situation?  He drops into a 
hole in the ground, where he finds his favorite (and only) pilot
being harshly abused.  Next thing he knows someone is calling for
"Security."  Should Avon

(a) assume it is Blake's base and know this is all a misunderstanding
(b) ask for a room service menu
(c) deduce that this is not a friendly hole in the ground and go
on the defensive
(d) other (please fill in the blank) ____________________

I view Avon's action as proper: he was trying to protect himself and
his followers.

Carol McCoy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:00:23 -0500
From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy)
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety
Message-ID: <199802190100.UAA15688@yfn.ysu.edu>

Jennifer asked:

>Do people really think Tarrant's words were so crucial? If Blake had walked
>into the tracking gallery and met Avon without Tarrant being present would
>events have been altered?

It's not just Tarrant's words, IMHO, it's the other events that greeted
Avon's arrival (that I just mentioned in the post in response to
Harriet):  Finding Tarrant being beat up and having Klyn call for
security set the stage, putting Avon on edge.

And, yes, I think it could have been different.  If Blake had secured
Tarrant (or never tested Tarrant to begin with) and met Avon's flyer
when it arrived, there was a good chance the misunderstanding would
have been avoided. They would still have to deal with Arlen and the
arrival of the Federation, but at least they would only have been
shooting at their real enemies.

Carol McCoy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 20:05:40 -0500
From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy)
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Vila and Plagues
Message-ID: <199802190105.UAA16523@yfn.ysu.edu>

Sue wrote:

>	I think it was the one Kathryn posted. Whew. Now we can all
>sleep easier, huh? 8-)

So that's why I've had insomnia.  It's all Sue's fault.  ;-)

Carol McCoy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:43:45 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" <BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] The difference (think this used to be Character morality)
Message-ID: <199802182144_MC2-33E2-B629@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Iain replied to Helen:
>>So, maybe, killing her _would_ have
>>made a difference.
>
>I think the only real difference would be that 
>she would be replaced by someone far less 
>sexy. This would be A Bad Thing.

Oh how true.  Probably a man with no beard and a hairy chest.

Harriet

PS Re destruction of Star One, I thought we actually saw it blow up in the
opening moments of Aftermath.  We certainly heard voiceovers during the
battle exclaiming that it had been destroyed, and Servalan told Avon about
it, did she not, during her Together We Can Rule The Universe routine.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:43:43 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" <BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Alphas (was Avon and Vila)
Message-ID: <199802182144_MC2-33E2-B626@compuserve.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Could someone with the relevant search equipment (er, Tom??) confirm
whether the word "Alpha" (as opposed to "superior grade" etc) is used at
all outside Shadow (Vila's conversation with Cally) and Hostage (Joban to
Servalan)?  Half a point for refs to other Greek letter grades, like Beta
in Weapon.  I don't owe these examples to my amazing memory; I got them out
of Sevencyclopaedia.  But my vague impression is that most of the Alpha
stuff has been built up by fans.  This is not to deny the existence of
grading in the Federation, just to murmur my weariness at the frequent
projection of the word "Alpha" back into scripts where I've no recollection
of it being in the first place.

Harriet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:06:21 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu
CC: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety)
Message-ID: <34EBA1AC.10E8@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> 
> What would you have Avon do in that situation?  He drops into a 
> hole in the ground, where he finds his favorite (and only) pilot
> being harshly abused.  Next thing he knows someone is calling for
> "Security."  Should Avon
> 
> (a) assume it is Blake's base and know this is all a misunderstanding
> (b) ask for a room service menu
> (c) deduce that this is not a friendly hole in the ground and go
> on the defensive
> (d) other (please fill in the blank) ____________________
> 


Vila> Room service? I'd like 12 bottles of wine sent to
hole-in-the-ground Suite B7... oh, any vintage, and variety. And can the
waitress wear red fur?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:15:58 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
CC: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" <BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Alphas (was Avon and Vila)
Message-ID: <34EBA3EE.4C6C@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I'm sure the terms Alpha and Beta were used in Weapon (2nd season). By
putting the inventor at a lower grade than he should be, he became
obsessed with proving himself.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:48:53 +1100
From: "Roger The Shrubber" <darrenro@ozonline.com.au>
To: "B7 Main List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] oracle of avon
Message-Id: <199802190422.PAA14697@budapest.ozonline.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

As a very trivial exercise, I linked Paul Darrow using the Bacon oracle to
the other main B7 actors in MOVIES ONLY.

Darrow, Paul was in Long Ago Tomorrow (1971) with Stone, Marianne
Stone, Marianne was in Don't Lose Your Head (1966) with Pearce, Jacqueline


Darrow, Paul was in Long Ago Tomorrow (1971) with McDowell, Malcolm
McDowell, Malcolm was in O Lucky Man! (1973) with Croucher, Brian
Croucher, Brian was in Shakedown: Return of the Sontarans (1994) (V) with
Chappell, Jan


Darrow, Paul was in Long Ago Tomorrow (1971) with Stone, Marianne
Stone, Marianne was in Wicked Lady, The (1983) with Barber, Glynis

Darrow, Paul and Knyvette, Sally cannot be linked using only movies. 


Darrow, Paul and Tuddenham, Peter cannot be linked using only movies.


Darrow, Paul was in Long Ago Tomorrow (1971) with Bayldon, Geoffrey
Bayldon, Geoffrey was in 55 Days at Peking (1963) with Heston, Charlton
Heston, Charlton was in Julius Caesar (1970) with Keating, Michael (I)

Brian Croucher is covered under Jan Chappell


Darrow, Paul was in Long Ago Tomorrow (1971) with Sim, Gerald
Sim, Gerald was in Slipper and the Rose, The (1976) with Crosbie, Annette
Crosbie, Annette was in Leon the Pig Farmer (1992) with Greif, Stephen


Darrow, Paul was in Long Ago Tomorrow (1971) with Jackson, Barry
Jackson, Barry was in Aces High (1977) with Pacey, Steven

Darrow, Paul was in Long Ago Tomorrow (1971) with Stone, Marianne
Stone, Marianne was in Wrong Box, The (1966) with Dyce, Hamilton
Dyce, Hamilton was in Unman, Wittering and Zigo (1971) with Jackson, David
(II)


Darrow, Paul was in Long Ago Tomorrow (1971) with Bird, Norman
Bird, Norman was in Young Winston (1972) with Hopkins, Anthony
Hopkins, Anthony was in Juggernaut (1974) with Thomas, Gareth

Darrow, Paul and Bryans, John cannot be linked using only movies. 
so linking via TV excluding B7 (thanks to bug in IMDB)....
Darrow, Paul was in "Blake's 7" (1978) with Croucher, Brian
Croucher, Brian was in "Quatermass" (1979) with Tyzack, Margaret
Tyzack, Margaret was in "Cousin Bette" (1972) (mini) with Bryans, John

Darrow, Paul was in Long Ago Tomorrow (1971) with Stone, Marianne
Stone, Marianne was in Never Let Go (1960) with Tovey, Roberta
Tovey, Roberta was in Beast in the Cellar, The (1971) with Craze, Peter


Darrow, Paul was in Long Ago Tomorrow (1971) with McDowell, Malcolm
McDowell, Malcolm was in Disturbed (1990) with Roy, Deep




___________________________________
from Darren r ..... Comments are welcome !
powerplay@cheerful.com
____________________________________
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their
home." --Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment
Corp.,1977
______________________________________
"The Administration is out to get me" 
_______________________________________
"In the end, winning is the only safety"
_________________________________________
"There are times when even confirmed cynics must trust to luck"
________________________________________
Was God an astronaut ?
_________________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634
Anxiety & Panic
_________________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634/powerplay.html
Blake's 7 FAQ & free screen savers

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 00:08:58 EST
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
Message-ID: <80126190.34ebbe6c@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-02-18 17:41:08 EST, you write:

<<  Avon didn't use that fine
 logical brain to question what was going on.  >>

   But he did. As soon as he bumped into the plastic cube, he very nicely
figured out what was wrong. Until that point he probably assumed the excess
weight was in the main structure of the shuttle, and couldn't be got
to/removed. And in Blake, the problem was too many possible logical solutions,
most of them involving Blake as a traitor. With a bigger man approaching him,
he lacked the time to think through the scenario. And Blake didn't help by
marching forward. And No, I'm not blaming Blake; there are extenuating
circumstances on both men's parts.      D. Rose

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 1998 08:38:07 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <qdtcall@esavionics.se>
To: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Size does matter
Message-ID: <is4t1wjb8g.fsf@godzilla.kiere.ericsson.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk writes:

> Is there any way the digests couldbe made smaller and more
> frequent? At the moment they are too big for my server and
> regular I get chunks chopped out of them as a result.

Yes, it's trivial. But you make me wonder what kind of broken mail
system you have, since the current size is less than what was
considered a reasonable maximum limit back in 1985!

> About two-thirds the current size would be about right.

Opinions from other digest folks? A 1/3 decrease in size will mean a
1/3 increase in the number of digests, on the average.
-- 
		    Calle Dybedahl, UNIX Sysadmin
       qdtcall@esavionics.se  http://www.lysator.liu.se/~calle/

------------------------------

Date: 19 Feb 1998 08:44:33 +0100
From: Calle Dybedahl <qdtcall@esavionics.se>
To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" <BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Alphas (was Avon and Vila)
Message-ID: <is3ehgjaxq.fsf@godzilla.kiere.ericsson.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> writes:

> Could someone with the relevant search equipment (er, Tom??) confirm
> whether the word "Alpha" (as opposed to "superior grade" etc) is used at
> all outside Shadow (Vila's conversation with Cally) and Hostage (Joban to
> Servalan)?

Not that I can find by grepping through the transcripts. 

> Half a point for refs to other Greek letter grades, like Beta
> in Weapon. 

Beta is mentioned only there, gamma not at all and delta only in "Shadow".
-- 
		    Calle Dybedahl, UNIX Sysadmin
       qdtcall@esavionics.se  http://www.lysator.liu.se/~calle/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:21:48 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: Safety
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.42-0218232148-0b0Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Wed 18 Feb, Louise Rutter wrote:
> Brent wrote re Orbit:
> 
> >this isn't a matter of asking someone to lay
> >their life down for you, but using your gun and hunting them down to MAKE
> >them lay down their life for you
> 
> Sorry, but it _is_ about asking someone to die for you. If Avon does 
> nothing, they both die and that's pointless. Vila isn't the sort who makes 
> momentous decisions in a crisis and Avon knows that. So Avon figures that 
> either he sacrifices himself to save Vila or he dumps Vila out of the 
> airlock. Vila certainly doesn't expect Avon to jump out for him, so why 
> does most of fandom  seem to expect it of him? Avon makes a lot of bad 
> decisions that I would criticise him for, but his actions on the Orbit 
> shuttle are not something I can blame him for.

I'm with you too to a large extent.  When push comes to shove, I can only think
of about four people for whom I'd be willing to jump out of an overloaded
shuttle for, and one of those is borderline.  (and the first three of those are
my husband and two children)

I feel Avon's action was immoral.  I feel it made him an unsafe person to be
with, but I will not condemn him too heavily because I suspect I could be
capable of it myself.  In such a situation, I might discover an unexpected
streak of heroism, or I might find out things about myself that I'd rather not
know too well.  One things for sure - that shuttle ain't a gonna crash with the
both of us on board.  If you're lucky, I'll draw lots.

Judith

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention  
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 23:34:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.42-0218233458-b49Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Wed 18 Feb, Jennifer Beavan wrote:
> Judith said
> > If Blake had been the man Avon remembered there would have been no
> shooting
> > either (because the old Blake would have felt no need to test 
> Tarrant>
> 
> Do people really think Tarrant's words were so crucial? If Blake had walked
> into the tracking gallery and met Avon without Tarrant being present would
> events have been altered?

Yes, I do.

Avon, by this time, was hypersensitive to any sense of betrayal.  Anna Grant,
whom he loved, had betrayed him, and only the week before Zukan had tried to
sell him to Servalan.  Cally's death could be seen as a form of betrayal too (a
sense of betrayal is a common part of mourning)

He'd come to almost expect betrayal from those he loved and those he was working
with.  He himself had betrayed Vila (from Vila's viewpoint) and that simply
added to his sense of guilt and his fear of betrayal.

The moment Tarrant said 'He's betrayed you', Blake was as good as dead.

Remember, Tarrant had risked his own life to get Avon safely off Scorpio.  If
there was anyone Avon would believe at that moment, it was Tarrant.

Without Tarrant's unfortunate misunderstanding of events, Avon would have been
just a little less triggerhappy.  Not a lot, but he wouldn't have so fatally
misinterpreted what Blake was saying to him.

Judith

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7

Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention  
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 19:12:19 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: J.Beavan@BTInternet.com
CC: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
Message-ID: <34EBA313.6FE0@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jennifer Beavan wrote:
> 
> Helen said. >If there was a 15% chance of survival, I'm
> > betting he would have taken the chance and let Vila have the safer
> > course, but there was seemingly no loopholes. >
> 
> Odd though, isn't it, that "genius leader" Avon didn't use that fine
> logical brain to question what was going on. Problem, suggestion, shoot,
> don't think - much like "Blake" in fact.
> 
> Jennifer
Good one, Jennifer. I will NOT try to defend Avon for not figuring out
there HAD to be a reason the shuttle was so damn heavy. Way before
stripping all the non-essentials that couldn't have weighed THAT much.
Or, how about landing the flippin' shuttle when they first realized
there was a problem. That would've taken less fuel than maintaining
orbit while doing the jettisons. IT"S THE SCRIPTWRITERS' FAULT-- yeah,
that's the ticket.
Guess I have to blame the scriptwriters for Blake using the "set up"
line, too.

It's more fun than picking on the characters.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 19:19:18 +1100 (EST)
From: Gordon Burgess & Carol Mason <gcb7@magna.com.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
Message-Id: <199802190819.TAA26633@magna.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 11:39 AM 2/18/98 -0800, you wrote:
>>The Scene goes something like this:
>>
>>Avon :"Before I decided to put my talents to more profitable use....."
>>Jenna: "And got arrested"
>>Avon: "I handled the computer analysis for a research project into matter
>>transmission.  It was based on a new alloy...."
>>Blake: "Aquatar"
>
>Surely Avon had to be an Alpha to be in a position of that much
responsibility. 
>He says he handled 'THE' computer analysis for the research project, which
>indicates he alone was responsible for ALL computer analysis.  It doesn't
seem a
>Gamma or Beta would be given that kind of position.
>
>Carol K
>(AVON RULES!!!!)


I seem to remember another Beta, who had researched, developed and built a
prototype, that according to his ranking he should not have been able to do.
Yet Coser created IMIPAK, and he was not an Alpha. The grading system must
obviously is not infallible. Although our Avon is definitely Alpha Elite :-)


Catch You Later,

Carol.

Semper Fidelis  

Carol "Hondo" Mason            < gcb7@magna.com.au >

*******************************************************************
* "Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity"     *
* "Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don't have film" * 
* "Friends may come and go, but enemies tend to accumlate"        *
* "If you can't convince them, confuse them"                      *
* "Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk"     *
*******************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 11:40:26 -0000
From: "Jenni-Alison" <jenni-alison@dial.pipex.com>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
Message-Id: <199802191139.MAA15932@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Alison Wrote:

> That's it exactly. I really wonder what people think Avon should
have done
> in that situation? 

Well, what if they all took off all their clothes and boots, then put
them, and Orac, who must have weighed fair bit, out of the airlock.
It might have worked, and would make a great start to a slash story
to boot!

Jenni

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:14:30 -0500 (EST)
From: NWOutsider <sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Alphas (was Avon and Vila)
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980219080823.21559A-100000@alpha.bgsu.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Harriet Monkhouse wrote:

> Could someone with the relevant search equipment (er, Tom??) confirm
> whether the word "Alpha" (as opposed to "superior grade" etc) is used at
> all outside Shadow (Vila's conversation with Cally) and Hostage (Joban to
> Servalan)?  Half a point for refs to other Greek letter grades, like Beta
> in Weapon.  I don't owe these examples to my amazing memory; I got them out
> of Sevencyclopaedia.  But my vague impression is that most of the Alpha
> stuff has been built up by fans.  This is not to deny the existence of
> grading in the Federation, just to murmur my weariness at the frequent
> projection of the word "Alpha" back into scripts where I've no recollection
> of it being in the first place.

	This is from the Recurring Themes in Fan Fic section of my web
site:

The Federation's Alpha-Delta class system plays a greater role in fan fic
than in the aired series. In the series it is mentioned in 7 episodes:
"The Way Back" (if the Alphas in the children's files refer to caste),
"Shadow," "Weapon," "Horizon" (fifth grade ignorant), "Hostage," "The
Keeper," and "Volcano"--frequently only in passing, yet it is ubiquitous
in fan fic. The only two of the crew whose class we are explicitly told
are Blake (Alpha, "Shadow") and Vila (Delta, "Shadow," "Volcano"). Jenna
is a superior grade which probably, but not definitely, means Alpha ("The
Keeper"). The rest are open to speculation. 

Sue 
sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html
B.I.T.C.H. "It's not just what I do. It's who I am."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 08:16:18 -0500 (EST)
From: NWOutsider <sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980219081510.21559B-100000@alpha.bgsu.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

On Wed, 18 Feb 1998, Julia Jones wrote:

> >We all know Avon is an Alpha Elite just because he's so darn special...
> >
> Been reading Sue Clerc's website, have we?

	Wow! Two unsolicited mentions of the website in one week! Woo
hoo! 8-)

Sue 
sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu		http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html
B.I.T.C.H. "It's not just what I do. It's who I am."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 09:15:12 -0500
From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Countdown: Why Blake Stayed on Albian
Message-ID: <199802191415.JAA23624@yfn.ysu.edu>

Jeroen wrote (quoting me):

>> Four thousand miles is a small distance on a planetary scale when you
>> consider that the entire planet would have been devastated so quickly.
>> The fact that Caulder was urging them to leave suggests that danger
>> to the area they were in was fairly imminent.  What if the initial
>> dispersal of radiation interfered with teleport pick up?  What if 
>> something else had gone wrong preventing Blake and Vila from quickly
>> getting back to the ship?  The practical leader would have had them
>> back on the ship long before it became an emergency situation.
>> 
>I thought that was because they all thought that the bomb was in the control
>room right? Not at the pole. So this statement could be invalid.

This was after they knew the bomb was at the pole.  It was when the
countdown reached the safety margin and they deduced that Avon and
Grant had taken off their bracelets.

>> And even if there was still time for Blake and Vila to leave, the
>> fact that Blake overruled Vila's decision for no good reason doesn't
>> make it Blake's finest hour.  If someone is afraid and if there is
>> no reason for him to have to be there, let him leave.
>> 
>I didn't think Vila really wanted to leave ... If he REALLY was serious he
>would have found a way to get back up.

Unless he feared Blake's wrath as much as he feared the bomb.  But
no matter what Vila could have/might have done, it doesn't change that
Blake refused to allow him to leave when he called for teleport and
never so much as tried to explain why he wasn't letting him leave.
As Lorna noted, it isn't the nicest way to treat a colleague.  And
as several people have noted at different times, just about everybody 
mistreated Vila at one time or another.

Carol McCoy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 15:56:34 -0000
From: "norm" <storminnorm@themillenniumgroup.nwnet.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V98 #52
Message-ID: <19980219162757996.AAA144@norman>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

delete me from your mailing list

----------
> From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se
> To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
> Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #52
> Date: 18 February 1998 18:55
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 07:37:33 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: Gordon Burgess & Carol Mason <gcb7@magna.com.au>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
Message-ID: <34EC51BC.1305@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

> I seem to remember another Beta, who had researched, developed and built a
> prototype, that according to his ranking he should not have been able to do.
> Yet Coser created IMIPAK, and he was not an Alpha. The grading system must
> obviously is not infallible. Although our Avon is definitely Alpha Elite :-)
> 
> 
> Catch You Later,
> 
> Carol.

Only, we know from Servalan's conversations that Coser had been
purposely kept down, in order to manipulate his psychology.

I do believe such a grading system is highly fallible. For instance, I
really believe Vila chose to be a Delta, though whether he _bought_  the
grade as he states or simply doodled on his test papers until they
flunked him, either way, he is smarter than the Federation ever
suspects.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:12:27 +0100
From: animate@arttic.be (animate)
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Hi
Message-ID: <19980219201440992.AAA64@Pc4.ARTTIC>

Hi there,

This Email is just to say I'm glad to be part of the Blake's 7 mailing list.

I'm 29 and I lived in the U.K. when Blake's 7 came out (1978) and since I
was very young (9) it had a great impression on me.
I naturaly have the entire collection on video (some cassettes date back to
1981).

Even now the series still looks high quality, ok the series has had a few
wrinkles but it depends which episode because some look and feel very recent
(duel ; killer etc....).

Great stuff.

Bernard

P.S. I look forward in receiving mail about the series.

--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #53
*************************************