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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 52
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Re: Gan the psycotic
[B7L] Countdown: Why Blake Stayed on Albian
[B7L] Deliverance/Redemption
[B7L] RE: blakes7-d Digest V98 #51
Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
Re: [B7L] Safety
Re: [B7L] Safety
[B7L] Re: Safety
Re: [B7L] Deliverance
Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
Re: [B7L] RE: blakes7-d Digest V98 #51
Re: [B7L] Safety
Re: [B7L] Re: Where are people?
Re: [B7L] RE: blakes7-d Digest V98 #51
Re: [B7L] RE: blakes7-d Digest V98 #51
Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
Re: [B7L] RE: blakes7-d Digest V98 #51
[B7L] Avon's smile
Re: [B7L] Character morality
Re: [B7L] Countdown: Why Blake Stayed on Albian
Re: [B7L] Character morality
Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
Re: [B7L] Countdown: Why Blake Stayed on Albian
Re: [B7L] Countdown: Why Blake Stayed on Albian
[B7L] Re: Vila and Plagues
[B7L] Blake's body count (was safety)
[B7L] Destruction of Star One
Re: [B7L] Destruction of Star One
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:36:52 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Gan the psycotic
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.09-0217203652-927Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1
On Tue 17 Feb, Carol A. McCoy wrote:
>
>
> Deborah wrote:
>
> >"An oak-pin for moi? Yippee!! Now to write some dirty smutty stuff and get the
> >cluster to go with it....:)"
>
> Oh sure, you make happy noises about getting an oak leaf. Where was that
> "Yippee" when a Tarrant Nostra button was mentioned? <sniff>
And of course Carol is due an oak leaf as well for herself for her intelligent
comments below. And Lorna. I shall have to make sure I take a decent supply to
Deliverance. Find me, and claim your oak leaf!
Lorna wrote:
>But then, I don't consider Gan a "dork," either. He doesn't have a vicious
>wit, but he's reliable and kind. Definitely one of the few B7 people you
>can trust, as long as that limiter is working. Avon's fun to watch from a
>safe distance, but I know if given the choice I'd prefer to hang around with
>Gan.
Carol replied:
>
> I agree that wit isn't a measure of intelligence. I've always assumed
> that Gan was just too nice of a person to want to play the daily
> sarcasm game. And I've always thought that rumors of his stupidity
> were greatly exaggerated. He's the one who takes charge when the
> London dumps its load of prisoners on Cygnus Alpha. He's the one
> who found fault with dealing with the Terra Nostra. I like the big
> guy. He was a mature, calming presence on Liberator.
I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Blake hadn't come back. Would
Gan have emerged as a natural leader on Cygnus Alpha? Is seems quite possible.
He was an honest and fair man and had the strength to back up the need for
justice.
Judith
PS. Various aches and pains have suddenly flared up, so I'll have to pass on
developing the 'was Gan a psycho' topic for now. There's some good arguments on
both sides though.
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:20:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Sondra Sweigman <sweigman@world.std.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Countdown: Why Blake Stayed on Albian
Message-Id: <Pine.SGI.3.95.980217181520.13506B-100000@world.std.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Carol says Blake wasn't doing Avon any good by staying and making
Vila stay. I disagree. By staying Blake insured that the teleport would
not be in use (transporting Vila and/or himself back to the ship) when
Avon needed it. Since that "need" could have become very urgent indeed
and it takes time to reconfigure the teleport coordinates, Blake's
decision was actually a highly pragmatic one.
As for the risk to his own life and Vila's: Not negligible, but
not as great as everyone seems to be assuming either. Only Avon and Grant
would have died at the instant of detonation. The risk to the rest of the
population was from lethal radiation which we were told would take several
hours to overspread the planet. Since Blake and Vila were 4000 miles
away from the bomb, they'd have had every chance of teleporting out safely
long before the radiation reached them.
-- Sondra
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 21:08:19 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Deliverance/Redemption
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.09-0217210819-3e8Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1
The fact that I'm running a Blake's 7 (and Babylon 5) convention and my name is
Judith leads to occasional confusion. I probably get a Deliverance enquiry
about once every month.
The Judiths on the Deliverance committee are Judith Smith and Judith Rolls.
Deliverance is March '98
Redemption is February '99
Judith Proctor
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: 17 Feb 1998 16:01:47 -0800
From: "Kinkade.Carol" <kinkade.carol@ssdgwy.mdc.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] RE: blakes7-d Digest V98 #51
Message-ID: <n1324390919.42067@SSDGWY.mdc.com>
>Lain wrote:
>You can argue about whether the attack on Star One was justified (I'm
>sure one or two people have discussed it occasionally), but there's no
>contradiction here. Destroying Star One will bring down the Federation,
>and Blake is (rightly or wrongly) willing to be responsible for collatoral
>damage to achieve that goal.
But, as we saw, the destruction of Star One DID NOT bring down the Federation.
Carol K
(AVON RULES!!!!)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:22:49 PST
From: "Sam Blume" <samblume@hotmail.com>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
Message-ID: <19980218002249.2681.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
>In a message dated 98-02-16 18:26:31 EST, you write:
>
>Blake's willingness to continue with his plans in Pressure Point
>really disturb me.
Someone else said...I can't find the post but it was like the
episode is unusual or Blake's actions are unusual and that's what
tells you how important Central Control is, because he wouldn't
act like that ordinarily. With Avon it happens quite often or
more often than with Blake.
>I've always found it ironic that Avon managed to master the
>worst of Blake's leadership techniques while failing to grasp the
>better ones. Look forward to more of your postings!
You could see it from this point of view: Avon never knew what
Blake was doing. When he had his turn, he tried to do what he thought
Blake had done but it failed...because Avon never knew what was really
happening. Avon can only copy what he thinks he sees but his vision
is clouded by his preconception that Blake must be using chicanery when
in truth Blake's a very good leader with a very good cause the others
are committed to or willing to fight for and he's mostly honest about
what he's doing. Avon goes about it like there's a
floor plan..or an Arthur Murray foot print chart to follow. Leadership
Tango one two three LIE one two three USE OTHERS AS BAIT dip and
turn...When Blake isn't doing that at all.
Just MODO,
Sam Blume
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:27:39 PST
From: "Sam Blume" <samblume@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety
Message-ID: <19980218002739.8334.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
You wrote:
>Just to keep things fair, Blake's body count was a tad higher than
>that. We have Jenna, Klyn, the technician Soolin shot, Deva, and any
>other of Blake's people who were killed when the Federation
>popped by for a spot of mayhem.
Jenna could very well still be alive and the only one in the base who
was confrimed as one of Blake's people was Deva. Klyn and the
technician, might not have been part of the new crew.
Just MODO,
Sam Blume
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:32:04 PST
From: "Sam Blume" <samblume@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety
Message-Id: <199802180032.QAA00860@f155.hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
You wrote:
>Like all of Blake's followers who got nailed by Travis the first time
>around when he lay in wait.
That's a valid point, but in counterpoint, Blake has learned from
his mistakes. Maybe the guilt of surviving? On Liberator, only one
of his group dies. Avon's kill rate goes up rather than down. I'm
all in favor of learning, as long as it isn't at my expense. <g>
Just MODO,
Sam Blume
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 20:10:24 -0500 (EST)
From: brent@ntr.net
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Safety
Message-Id: <199802180110.UAA01183@rome.ntr.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>I'd still take my chances with Avon over Blake, though. Deborah Rose
I'm with the Blake camp on this one. Though occasionally overzealous, such
as in Pressure Point, if it came down to a me or him situation, I know Blake
wouldn't chuck me out an airlock to ensure his own survival such as Avon was
going to do to Vila in Orbit (this isn't a matter of asking someone to lay
their life down for you, but using your gun and hunting them down to MAKE
them lay down their life for you). Let's also not forget Avon's revelation
to the potential Federation members in Warlord of the Scorpio's base of
operations which subsequently ended in the destruction of that base (and
very nearly the crew). Oh, and he killed Blake.
I don't judge Blake or Avon from individual moments or situations in the
series, but, rather the series as a progression. By the end, Blake had
changed methods when he saw what wasn't working, whereas, Avon became more
and more reckless and deadly to his crew and the safety of the crew was what
this question was originally about, right?
Brent
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:31:13 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Deliverance
Message-ID: <19980218083113.18141@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Tue, Feb 17, 1998 at 08:04:36AM +0000, Julia Jones wrote:
> In message <e04b1c04.34e8d83c@aol.com>, AChevron@aol.com writes
> >In a message dated 98-02-16 17:27:10 EST, you write:
> >
> ><< for lil ole me can't you? You don't want a 53 year old, overweight,
> > >white-haired Welshman...
> > >
> > <evil grin>
> >
> > Wanna bet?
> > Judith, you've done too good a job at defending/extolling/praising the
> >lad!...
> >
> Actually I met Gareth at the first con I ever went to (he was the reason
> I went to it), several months before I met Judith, and several more
> months before getting a net connection.
>
> He's loverly.
Indeed. But I don't see why Judith has to be so greedy - after all,
she can grab Gareth at Neutral Zone (while I shyly hovver near James
Morrison...)
As for loverly people, my vote is for Janet Lees Price! I assume she
won't be there, since Paul isn't. But she's a *lovely* lady.
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://connexus.apana.org.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "std/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:51:19 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: Louise Rutter <Louise.Rutter@btinternet.com>
CC: "'B7 Lysator'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
Message-ID: <34EA4CA7.2756@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Yes, exactly like that. Avon was all for taking the short cut to save
Gan
and came up with the means to do it. It was only when he figured out
that
_all_ the crew were extremely likely to die that he backtracked.
As for Orbit, Avon saw that as an "either/or" situation and as soon as
he
found an alternative he leapt at it. I've said this before (though maybe
not on this list) - you cannot ask anyone to die for you. It may be nice
if
there is someone in your life who would be prepared to, but you
absolutely
cannot _expect_ it of them. That's just asking too damn much.
Louise
It wasn't easy for Avon to turn on Vila... he sees betrayal as the
ultimate crime. Listen to his voice when he tries to get Vila to come
out. He sounds like he's half out of his mind. Doesn't make what he
would've done better, but give him credit for hating himself for trying.
And when he finds that fragment, it weights, what, 600 lbs? And instead
of searching out Vila (which might still be easier), he pushes that
thing out with every ounce of strength he's got. Avon had an apparent
choice of one dying or both. If there was a 15% chance of survival, I'm
betting he would have taken the chance and let Vila have the safer
course, but there was seemingly no loopholes. Avon will take slim
chances for survival, but he won't put his head on the guillotine. And
there's no garuntee that Blake or Tarrant would've, either.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:56:02 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: Tom.Forsyth@btinternet.com
CC: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
Message-ID: <34EA4DC2.5F5F@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Re: is Avon an Alpha?
When Blake and he were talking about the teleport bracelets when they
first found them, I thought they mentioned that basically, they were
connected with the project because practically any Alpha grade on Earth
was working on it at some point or another. I'm probably misremembering.
If I ever catch up on my email I'll rewatch the scene. In the meantime,
any one think that sounds right?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:04:01 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: "Kinkade.Carol" <kinkade.carol@ssdgwy.mdc.com>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] RE: blakes7-d Digest V98 #51
Message-ID: <34EA4FA0.6F31@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Kinkade.Carol wrote:
>
> >Lain wrote:
> >You can argue about whether the attack on Star One was justified (I'm
> >sure one or two people have discussed it occasionally), but there's no
> >contradiction here. Destroying Star One will bring down the Federation,
> >and Blake is (rightly or wrongly) willing to be responsible for collatoral
> >damage to achieve that goal.
>
> But, as we saw, the destruction of Star One DID NOT bring down the Federation.
>
> Carol K
> (AVON RULES!!!!)
Nothing much to add, but you are _so_ right, I though it should be
repeated. Star One's destruction cost lives and only shook up the
Federation a little. Servalan never did get killed, so we never learn if
her death would have made a difference. But she did do an awful lot to
make the Federation expand. And the destruction of the Aurons was her
personal life involving the destruction of a species, not an actual
professional-Federation-typ plot. So, maybe, killing her _would_ have
made a difference.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 19:09:48 -0800
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: Sam Blume <samblume@hotmail.com>
CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Safety
Message-ID: <34EA50FB.5F17@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sam Blume wrote:
>
> You wrote:
>
> >Like all of Blake's followers who got nailed by Travis the first time
> >around when he lay in wait.
>
> That's a valid point, but in counterpoint, Blake has learned from
> his mistakes. Maybe the guilt of surviving? On Liberator, only one
> of his group dies. Avon's kill rate goes up rather than down. I'm
> all in favor of learning, as long as it isn't at my expense. <g>
>
> Just MODO,
>
> Sam Blume
IMHO, the deaths in "Blake" are as much Blake's fault as Avon's.
Avon: Is it true? Have you betrayed us? Have you betrayed me?
Blake: Avon, I set this all up-- (bang bang bang)
THOSE were NOT the words to use when someone asks if they've been
trapped. D'oh! Nor does one try to get a paranoiac's friend to think one
is an enemy to test him. Nor do you play mind games on people you've
known for years because you can't trust your judgement. And of course,
it was one of Blake's current people who summond the Federation troops,
was it not?
Whose leadership failed?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 08:52:53 +0000
From: "Terry Owen" <terry.owen@postoffice.worldnet.att.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Where are people?
Message-ID: <19980218025952.AAA17756@owen>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Delurking to admit to being an Iowan, too. Cedar Rapids, to be
specific - Waterloo <IA> native.
Terry
terry.owen@worldnet.att.net
On 11 Feb 98 Jason Brittain wrote:
> > >Jenni posted to list asking about B7 fans living near Altringham in
> > the hope
> > >of meeting up with people while she as there training.
> > >
> > >As a newcomer, I'd also be interested to know where people are based,
> > with a
> > >view to meeting up at some future date.
>
> As newcomers are chiming in, I'll toss my hat into the ring on this
> as well. I'm from out in the States.. in Iowa of all places. The
> local PBS station started showing Blake's 7 around last July or so,
> and I've been a fan since the first show.
>
> - Jason
>
> "If you work very hard, someday you'll be able to
> write such illogical things too."-Miyoshi Shoraku
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 17 Feb 1998 22:08:06 EST
From: MLytle@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] RE: blakes7-d Digest V98 #51
Message-ID: <8d8610df.34ea5098@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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>But, as we saw, the destruction of Star One DID NOT bring down the
Federation.
>
I don't think that Star One wasn't destroyed. Travis only managed to shut
down one small section of the mine field between galaxies. The Andromedas'
(sp?) ships came through that gap.
>(AVON RULES!!!!)
Gotta agree with you on that one.
Maggie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:08:06 +0000
From: Julia Jones <Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] RE: blakes7-d Digest V98 #51
Message-ID: <6EpewCAmbp60EwOt@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <8d8610df.34ea5098@aol.com>, MLytle@aol.com writes
>
>
>>But, as we saw, the destruction of Star One DID NOT bring down the
>Federation.
>>
>I don't think that Star One wasn't destroyed. Travis only managed to shut
>down one small section of the mine field between galaxies. The Andromedas'
>(sp?) ships came through that gap.
>
Star One is the planet/computer complex, not the minefield that was one
of the things it controlled. The destruction of Star One during the
subsequent war is mentioned/implied in later episodes. Someone else can
hunt down the scenes in the scripts. Check through Aftermath, I think
that's one of the relevant episodes.
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:06:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980218100533.11065A-100000@bsauasb>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Sam Blume wrote:
> what he's doing. Avon goes about it like there's a
> floor plan..or an Arthur Murray foot print chart to follow. Leadership
> Tango one two three LIE one two three USE OTHERS AS BAIT dip and
> turn...When Blake isn't doing that at all.
Brilliant. Twisted, surreal and hilarious.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 10:30:52 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
Cc: "Kinkade.Carol" <kinkade.carol@ssdgwy.mdc.com>, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] RE: blakes7-d Digest V98 #51
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980218100804.11065B-100000@bsauasb>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Helen Krummenacker wrote:
> Kinkade.Carol wrote:
> >
> > >Lain wrote:
> > >You can argue about whether the attack on Star One was justified (I'm
> > >sure one or two people have discussed it occasionally), but there's no
> > >contradiction here. Destroying Star One will bring down the Federation,
> > >and Blake is (rightly or wrongly) willing to be responsible for collatoral
> > >damage to achieve that goal.
> >
> > But, as we saw, the destruction of Star One DID NOT bring down the Federation.
> >
> > Carol K
> > (AVON RULES!!!!)
> Nothing much to add, but you are _so_ right, I though it should be
> repeated. Star One's destruction cost lives and only shook up the
> Federation a little.
We were talking about whether Blake was morally inconsistent, so what's
important is his (not unreasonable) belief that destroying Star One will
destroy the Federation. You can't really criticise the chap for making
decisions without reading the next season's scripts.
In any case, it shook up the Federation more than a little. There was a
revolution on Earth, which in turn fell prey to a counter-revolution due
to the rebels' lack of leadership (remember, the original plan was for
Blake to be on Earth, which would have made a big difference). The
Federation was greatly reduced - I'm sure the outer planets were glad to
see the back of Star One - and never regained its former size or power. By
the end of season 4 there was a realistic prospect that a rebel alliance
could defeat the Federation.
Blake's grand plan was the victim of circumstance, but even its partial
success had a non-negligible impact. There was every reason for Blake to
believe it could succeed.
>Servalan never did get killed, so we never learn
if
> her death would have made a difference. But she did do an awful lot to
> make the Federation expand.
I'm with Blake here. The Federation was perfectly capable of doing awful
things without her: she's a symptom, but Blake wants to kill the disease.
Even when she's reduced to lowly Commissioner Sleer, the Federation does
not suddenly become all sweetness and light.
Her only real contribution to Federation expansion was torturing Forbus
into manufacturing Pylene-50. Do you really think no other Federation
commissioner would be nasty enough to do that?
> And the destruction of the Aurons was her
> personal life involving the destruction of a species, not an actual
> professional-Federation-typ plot.
Well, OK, I'll sort of give you that one, though it really is
half-and-half (it's also a plot to capture the liberator).
>So, maybe, killing her _would_ have
> made a difference.
I think the only real difference would be that she would be replaced by
someone far less sexy. This would be A Bad Thing.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 22:50:00 +1100
From: Fran Myers <algemy@ozemail.com.au>
To: B7 <blake7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Avon's smile
Message-ID: <34EACAE8.74EB@ozemail.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Judith sez: Do we ever see Avon laugh or give a large smile at any other
time than when things are at their absolute worst? eg. Horizon (when
he has to go to the rescue), Gold (when the money is useless), Terminal
(the end), Blake (the end).
I think Avon has a sense of the ridiculous, rather than a sense of
humour. Another reason why I adore him...
Fran
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 21:07:38 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Character morality
Message-ID: <19980218210738.49603@welkin.apana.org.au>
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On Tue, Feb 17, 1998 at 03:30:05PM -0500, NWOutsider wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Ian Lay wrote:
>
> > Sorry to be pedantic (and probably incorrect !!), but wasn't it Zen who
> > mentioned the Phobon plague whilst he was analyzing the Shadow. The quote
> > was somthing along the lines of ".....and incorrectly referred to as the
> > Phobon Plague". I don't remember Vila mentioning it... but I may be wrong.
>
> Was it? Damn. Then when was Vila talking about plagues...it wasn't
> the line in "Killer" about not liking them because the next minute you're
> dead that I was thinking of but something else.
I think this is the quote you were thinking of.
Vila: Under control? You know this could be another Casarus.
Avon: What?
Vila: You remember the Casarus swamp fever, killed millions.
Avon: Well there aren't millions here, so don't worry about it.
Vila: Well I'm here, and I do worry about it.
(Blake's 7: Killer [B7])
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://connexus.apana.org.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "std/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:41:20 -0000
From: "Jenni-Alison" <jenni-Alison@dial.pipex.com>
To: "Sondra Sweigman" <sweigman@world.std.com>, <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Countdown: Why Blake Stayed on Albian
Message-Id: <199802181219.NAA27766@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
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> From: Sondra Sweigman <sweigman@world.std.com>
> To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
> Subject: [B7L] Countdown: Why Blake Stayed on Albian
> Date: 17 February 1998 23:20
>
> Carol says Blake wasn't doing Avon any good by staying and making
> Vila stay. I disagree. By staying Blake insured that the teleport would
> not be in use (transporting Vila and/or himself back to the ship) when
> Avon needed it. Since that "need" could have become very urgent indeed
> and it takes time to reconfigure the teleport coordinates, Blake's
> decision was actually a highly pragmatic one.
Brilliant point, Sondra. I never felt that Blake was making a pointless
gesture, but I couldn't put my finger on why. I think you've hit the nail
on the head. If I remember correctly, it took about 6-8 seconds to teleport
up, which wouldn't have left much time to reset the teleport co-ordinates.
Just another example of Blake keeping his head in a crisis!
Jenni
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:20:55 EST
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Character morality
Message-ID: <6e60d98.34ead229@aol.com>
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In a message dated 98-02-17 10:18:06 EST, you write:
<< Blake isn't interested in killing
Servalan (or Travis). >>
Very good point. You are correct, it is the position rather than the person
that normally matters. however, when an unusually competant person holds the
position, that person makes a particullarly appropriate target. Admiral
Yamamoto in WW2 is an example. The Japanese had a number of competant
Admirals, but he rated special attention. Assassination is not a nice thing,
but it is an especially suitable tool for terrorists/rebels.
but you will get me to concede that Blake is not acting in a
contridictory manner. The System vs. personal arguement is too effective for
me to fight.... though I still think Avon had the right idea....
Deborah Rose
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:08:31 -0000
From: Ian Lay <ian@pacific-cc.demon.co.uk>
To: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>, Tom.Forsyth@btinternet.com
Cc: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and Vila
Message-ID: <01bd3c4c$c8760240$f2dadec2@pacific-cc.demon.co.uk>
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Helen wrote:
>Re: is Avon an Alpha?
>
>When Blake and he were talking about the teleport bracelets when they
>first found them, I thought they mentioned that basically, they were
>connected with the project because practically any Alpha grade on Earth
>was working on it at some point or another. I'm probably misremembering.
>If I ever catch up on my email I'll rewatch the scene. In the meantime,
>any one think that sounds right?
I fear not....
The Scene goes something like this:
Avon :"Before I decided to put my talents to more profitable use....."
Jenna: "And got arrested"
Avon: "I handled the computer analysis for a research project into matter
transmission. It was based on a new alloy...."
Blake: "Aquatar"
Avon :"That's right"
Blake: "Yes I worked on that project too"
Avon: "Small World"
Blake:" Large project!"
Jenna: "I didn't work on it."
And it goes on. No mention of Alphas I'm afraid though.
Take care,
-------------------------------------------------------------
Ian "If I could spell I would be dangerust" Lay
///
:-)
\\\
Watford Internet Football Club
ian@pacific-cc.demon.co.uk or
wifc@wfc.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 07:34:46 EST
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Safety
Message-ID: <2576f899.34ead568@aol.com>
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In a message dated 98-02-17 20:36:34 EST, you write:
<< By the end, Blake had
changed methods when he saw what wasn't working, >>
Yes, he changed methods, but playing at bounty hunter? Recruiting
federation officers and ignoring his own security measures? Both Avon and
Blake have been worn down by events since they parted. It shows in "Blake".
Avon sacrificed Xenon Base in an effort to forge an anti-Federation alliance
and slow down the re-expansion. We haven't a clue what happened to Blake in
this time, but it looks pretty grim.
As for being chucked out an airlock. I suppose Blake would sacrifice
himself and jump out to save a crewman, who would then jump out before Blake
could. I'm not Vila. I wouldn't wait around to be shot or forced out. And give
Avon some due: he didn't come up with the idea, just acted on it when he
couldn't think of anything better. Besides, life around Avon would be much
more entertaining... D. Rose
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:05:22 -0500
From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Countdown: Why Blake Stayed on Albian
Message-ID: <199802181305.IAA23145@yfn.ysu.edu>
Sondra wrote:
> Carol says Blake wasn't doing Avon any good by staying and making
>Vila stay. I disagree. By staying Blake insured that the teleport would
>not be in use (transporting Vila and/or himself back to the ship) when
>Avon needed it. Since that "need" could have become very urgent indeed
>and it takes time to reconfigure the teleport coordinates, Blake's
>decision was actually a highly pragmatic one.
I'm glad you brought that up, Sondra, because I've been doing some research
since the last time this reasoning was presented. And what I've
observed contradicts your argument. They don't have to reconfigure the
teleport when bringing people up (only when setting them down). It
appears as if the teleport locks on the bracelet for return trips,
eliminating the need to reset coordinates for pick-up. Let me offer
two examples of that.
RUMOURS: Vila teleports Cally, Tarrant and Dayna from the cellar
without setting (or even noting) the input coordinates. It's why he
couldn't immediately teleport one of them back down. The
teleport was still set for the output coordinates used when he had
originally teleported them to the planet. Implication is they
didn't need to have the coordinates set for pick up.
DELIVERANCE: The crew have been moving around on the planet. They
are not where they were put down. Then they call for teleport.
Cally runs over to the controls and brings up Avon, Vila, and Ensor Jr.
She operates a different button and Gan appears a second later.
She never has to set any coordinates. It was as if the teleport was
automatically telling her that there were two groupings and she needed
to do two retrievals. The entire process only took seconds.
So there was plenty of time to allow Vila to return to the ship and still
retrieve Avon and Grant. Not to mention there was no practical
reason for Blake and Vila to have stayed to begin with. As I said
before, it was a noble gesture. And that's fine for Blake to
decided to do that himself, but Vila should also have the right to
return to the ship.
> As for the risk to his own life and Vila's: Not negligible, but
>not as great as everyone seems to be assuming either. Only Avon and Grant
>would have died at the instant of detonation. The risk to the rest of the
>population was from lethal radiation which we were told would take several
>hours to overspread the planet. Since Blake and Vila were 4000 miles
>away from the bomb, they'd have had every chance of teleporting out safely
>long before the radiation reached them.
Four thousand miles is a small distance on a planetary scale when you
consider that the entire planet would have been devastated so quickly.
The fact that Caulder was urging them to leave suggests that danger
to the area they were in was fairly imminent. What if the initial
dispersal of radiation interfered with teleport pick up? What if
something else had gone wrong preventing Blake and Vila from quickly
getting back to the ship? The practical leader would have had them
back on the ship long before it became an emergency situation.
And even if there was still time for Blake and Vila to leave, the
fact that Blake overruled Vila's decision for no good reason doesn't
make it Blake's finest hour. If someone is afraid and if there is
no reason for him to have to be there, let him leave.
I don't expect Blake to be a saint. I can understand that the
pressures of the moment had affected his judgment. But that doesn't
make his decision right. It only makes it human.
Carol McCoy
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:14:29 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jeroen J. Kwast" <jeroenkw@gns.getronics.nl>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se (mailing list)
Subject: Re: [B7L] Countdown: Why Blake Stayed on Albian
Message-Id: <199802181414.PAA25480@pampus.gns.getronics.nl>
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Some points:
> > As for the risk to his own life and Vila's: Not negligible, but
> >not as great as everyone seems to be assuming either. Only Avon and Grant
> >would have died at the instant of detonation. The risk to the rest of the
> >population was from lethal radiation which we were told would take several
> >hours to overspread the planet. Since Blake and Vila were 4000 miles
> >away from the bomb, they'd have had every chance of teleporting out safely
> >long before the radiation reached them.
>
That was after they discovered the bomb was on the pole.
> Four thousand miles is a small distance on a planetary scale when you
> consider that the entire planet would have been devastated so quickly.
> The fact that Caulder was urging them to leave suggests that danger
> to the area they were in was fairly imminent. What if the initial
> dispersal of radiation interfered with teleport pick up? What if
> something else had gone wrong preventing Blake and Vila from quickly
> getting back to the ship? The practical leader would have had them
> back on the ship long before it became an emergency situation.
>
I thought that was because they all thought that the bomb was in the control
room right? Not at the pole. So this statement could be invalid.
> And even if there was still time for Blake and Vila to leave, the
> fact that Blake overruled Vila's decision for no good reason doesn't
> make it Blake's finest hour. If someone is afraid and if there is
> no reason for him to have to be there, let him leave.
>
I didn't think Vila really wanted to leave ... If he REALLY was serious he
would have found a way to get back up.
Jeroen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 09:44:03 -0500 (EST)
From: NWOutsider <sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Vila and Plagues
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980218094223.21939A-100000@alpha.bgsu.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, Ian Lay wrote:
> Remembered it now....It was in the Children of Auron....
I think it was the one Kathryn posted. Whew. Now we can all
sleep easier, huh? 8-)
Sue
sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html
B.I.T.C.H. "It's not just what I do. It's who I am."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:21:03 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <H_F_Monkhouse@compuserve.com>
To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" <BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Blake's body count (was safety)
Message-ID: <199802181122_MC2-33CF-EC04@compuserve.com>
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Carol Mc said:
>just to keep things fair, Blake's body count
>was a tad higher than that. We have Jenna,
>Klyn, the technician Soolin shot, Deva, and
>any other of Blake's people who were killed
>when the Federation popped by for a spot of
>mayhem.
Hey, Klyn is an Avon kill, so if we are making a direct comparison of Blake
and Avon follower-bodycounts it's a bit hard on Blake to put her in. Silly
Blake not to shoot a few of Avon's companions to tilt the balance back
again!
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: 18 Feb 1998 08:56:38 -0800
From: "Kinkade.Carol" <kinkade.carol@ssdgwy.mdc.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Destruction of Star One
Message-ID: <n1324329649.24657@SSDGWY.mdc.com>
>Lain wrote:
>We were talking about whether Blake was morally inconsistent, so what's
>important is his (not unreasonable) belief that destroying Star One will
>destroy the Federation. You can't really criticise the chap for making
>decisions without reading the next season's scripts.
Let me make it clear that my statement *was not* a criticism of Blake. As a
matter of fact, while watching the series thru for the first time, I agreed with
him. The point of my comment was that the Federation was not so fragile that it
*was* brought down that easily. (Don't assume that just because I'm an Avon fan
I hate Blake. I like Blake, and I often agreed with him against Avon.)
>the original plan was for Blake to be on Earth, which would have made a big
>difference).
Would it?? Would Blake have found the people on Earth so willing to turn
government over to him? The Federation had a lot of support. The rank-and-file
soldiers seemed to strongly support the Federation (the two soldiers who crashed
on Sarron seemed like decent sorts, but they would obviously fight for the
Federation). The general public weren't privy to the heinous carrying ons of
Servalan and other "top officials" -- and those who were, approved of their
methods. There were a lot of "simple folk" (like the young officer on the
London) who seemed to find no fault with the Federation and would (in my
opinion) fight against a rebel take-over. I'm sure there were ambitious
politico survivors on Earth who could stir "the faithful" on in the name of the
Federation. In "Trial" we were given the impression that there are any number
of honorable, decent officers and soldiers who support and stand by the
Federation.
I'm not saying Blake didn't have his supportors, I'm just saying that all of
Earth and the Federation was not waiting for Blake to rescue them. They didn't
even know they needed rescuing. ;)
I apologize, this isn't worded very well, but I hope my meaning comes across.
>The Federation was greatly reduced - and never regained its former size
>or power.
Was it in "Gold"? that Tarrant, I believe, made the comment that at the rate
the Federation was rebuilding itself, it would be bigger and stronger than it
ever was if something wasn't done to stop it?
>By the end of season 4 there was a realistic prospect that a rebel alliance
>could defeat the Federation.
I'm not being sarcastic, so please don't take it that way. But, could you give
some examples of why you believe this? By the end of season 4, I didn't see
that the rebels were any closer to their goal than they were in the beginning of
the series.
I'm a firm believer in the "Avon and Blake set it all up" theory, so for me,
Guada Prime was not the end, but only the beginning of new possibilites. But up
to this point, I see no indication that they were getting any where.
>>So, maybe, killing Servalan _would_ have made a difference.
>I think the only real difference would be that she would be replaced by
>someone far less sexy. This would be A Bad Thing.
The real tragedy would have been that all of us Avon/Servalan fans would have
been deprived all their lovely moments together.
Carol K
(AVON RULES!!!!)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:55:07 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Destruction of Star One
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980218172206.2476A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On 18 Feb 1998, Kinkade.Carol wrote:
>
> >the original plan was for Blake to be on Earth, which would have made a big
> >difference).
>
> Would it?? Would Blake have found the people on Earth so willing to turn
> government over to him? The Federation had a lot of support. The rank-and-file
> soldiers seemed to strongly support the Federation (the two soldiers who crashed
> on Sarron seemed like decent sorts, but they would obviously fight for the
> Federation). The general public weren't privy to the heinous carrying ons of
> Servalan and other "top officials" -- and those who were, approved of their
> methods. There were a lot of "simple folk" (like the young officer on the
> London) who seemed to find no fault with the Federation and would (in my
> opinion) fight against a rebel take-over. I'm sure there were ambitious
> politico survivors on Earth who could stir "the faithful" on in the name of the
> Federation. In "Trial" we were given the impression that there are any number
> of honorable, decent officers and soldiers who support and stand by the
> Federation.
I guess a lot depends on how you take Shrinker's comments in "Rumours of
Death". The way I interpreted them, the revolution had been initially
successful, but wasn't sufficiently organised and focussed to secure its
victory in the long term. Blake has a genius for leadership, and is the
only one they would all follow. I really think he would have made the
difference.
(The astute reader will note at this point that I assert Blake's
individual importance, while denying Servalan's. A foolish consistency is
the hobgoblin of little minds.)
You also have to bear in mind that the Andromedan war has greatly weakened
the Federation military, and diverted a lot of resources to the front
line. Most of the soldiers you refer to will be too far away to suppress a
rebellion. Your point about officials and politicos is quite right,
though.
> I'm not saying Blake didn't have his supportors, I'm just saying that all of
> Earth and the Federation was not waiting for Blake to rescue them. They didn't
> even know they needed rescuing. ;)
This comes back to the "how much popular support did Blake have" question.
He had enough support to be a serious threat: that doesn't mean a
majority, I think we agree on that, but I think he had enough.
>
> >The Federation was greatly reduced - and never regained its former size
> >or power.
>
> Was it in "Gold"? that Tarrant, I believe, made the comment that at the rate
> the Federation was rebuilding itself, it would be bigger and stronger than it
> ever was if something wasn't done to stop it?
>
Extrapolation's a tricky business. Have you heard the Creationist one
about the speed of light?
> >By the end of season 4 there was a realistic prospect that a rebel alliance
> >could defeat the Federation.
>
> I'm not being sarcastic, so please don't take it that way. But, could you give
> some examples of why you believe this? By the end of season 4, I didn't see
> that the rebels were any closer to their goal than they were in the beginning of
> the series.
I'm basing this mainly on "Warlord". Despite their bizarre dress sense,
those leaders aren't fools. They wouldn't get involved in fighting the
Federation if they didn't think they had a chance. Even Zukan speculates
that he may have made the wrong choice in siding with the Feds, and he was
nothing if not a pragmatic politician.
> I'm a firm believer in the "Avon and Blake set it all up" theory, so for me,
> Guada Prime was not the end, but only the beginning of new possibilites. But up
> to this point, I see no indication that they were getting any where.
Ah, well I'm a firm believer in the "our morally questionable heroes die
scared and confused in an anonymous hole in the ground" theory, so I'm
afraid we're going to have to agree to differ there.
> >>So, maybe, killing Servalan _would_ have made a difference.
>
> >I think the only real difference would be that she would be replaced by
> >someone far less sexy. This would be A Bad Thing.
>
> The real tragedy would have been that all of us Avon/Servalan fans would have
> been deprived all their lovely moments together.
I see I'm more eclectic than you: Anybody/Servalan moments are enough for
me. I was watching "Traitor" last night - loved her scene with Leitz. "I
don't submit... to blackmail". I don't know quite how to represent in
writing the growling sound Sid James makes in "Carry On Cleo", so you'll
just have to use your imagination.
Iain
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End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #52
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