From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se
Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #4
X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
X-Mailing-List: <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se> archive/volume98/4
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------"
To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
------------------------------
Content-Type: text/plain
blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 4
Today's Topics:
[B7L] "Out of death was I born...."
Re: [B7L] The Way Back 4/4
[B7L] Sex-- het mode
[B7L] Sex-- slash mode
[B7L] dorian crew
Re: [B7L] Sex-- het mode
Re: [B7L] Sex-- slash mode
[B7L] Re email junkie
[B7L] Og-Gan
[B7L] Strazynski Gives Credit
Re: [B7L] Og-Gan
Re: [B7L] Re Terminal, and an apology
Re: [B7L] Sex-- slash mode
Re: [B7L] Og-Gan
Re: [B7L] The Way Back 4/4
Re: [B7L] "Out of death was I born...."
Re: [B7L] Slash debate
Re: [B7L] "Out of death was I born...."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 21:17:01 GMT
From: dixonm@access.mountain.net (Meredith Dixon)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] "Out of death was I born...."
Message-ID: <34b1fc49.244922449@pharos.dixon.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:47:08 +1100, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
>A whole bag of Gens? Maybe they were Liliputian Gens.
>And to think, Avon and Tarrant were secretly Simes all this time!
>Hmmm, puts another slant on that "kiss of death" don't it?
Avon's a Sime, no question, and Tarrant and Cally and Vila are quick
and graceful enough to be Simes too.
Gan and Blake are definitely Gens, and when Blake gets worked up about
something he influences the ambient nager on the Liberator. This is
why Avon keeps feeling that Blake is manipulating them...he is.
Whether he's doing so consciously or unconsciously can be decided by
your interpretation of Blake.
I'm less sure about the others. I think Jenna must be Sime also,
otherwise the Blake-Avon-Jenna dynamic of the first season wouldn't
work out well at all. (I know I just said I don't care for explicit
sex, but I can just see a story in which Avon and Jenna (nearly?)
come to blows because they both want to take transfer from Blake.)
Hm. There's a problem here, though. That gives us Avon, Jenna, Cally
and Vila as Simes, and only Gan and Blake as Gens. And I can't see
any of those four as a channel, can you? Cally's definitely a Sime.
Avon's definitely a Sime. So either Jenna or Vila has to be Gen. I
guess it's got to be Jenna after all; in a Sime-Gen world, I can't see
a Gen succeeding as a thief.
So, Avon, Cally, and Vila are Simes, Blake, Jenna and Gan are Gens.
Orac doesn't affect the equation, but Gan's death certainly does.
They probably raid off-ship while they're looking for Star One.
At the start of the third season, we still have Avon, Cally and Vila,
and they're joined by Tarrant and Dayna. Tarrant's a Sime, and I'd
assume that weapons-specialist Dayna is also. And naturally Soolin
is, too. This in itself goes a long way toward explaining the
difference between the first two seasons and the second two...first
and second season, they're a balanced set of transfer partners; third
and fourth seasons they're a hunting pack of Sime raiders.
You know, this *works*. :)
Meredith Dixon
dixonm@access.mountain.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 10:25:21 -0800
From: Pat Patera <pussnboots@geocities.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Way Back 4/4
Message-ID: <34AFD411.1776@geocities.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
NWOutsider wrote:
> re: The Way Back 1/4 - 4/4
Wow. Sue, what are you on? And where can I get some?
Pat P
PS. Yes, Jenna and Vila would be great story partners - foils as perfect
as Avon and Vila. I now have visions of pre-London Jenna tearing her
hair out during some smuggling operation where she had hired Vila to do
a part. Yes, he comes through, but not in the straight-line, predictable
fashion that she would expect and appreciate. :)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 98 05:57:00 GMT
From: s.thompson8@genie.geis.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Sex-- het mode
Message-Id: <199801050616.GAA12001@rock103.genie.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
These are old threads, but I'm just back from vacation and catching
up. In addition to people whose e-mail access is though school or
work, even those of us who have computers at home may be away from
them during holidays-- or just too busy to be very active.
About high heels: hasn't anyone considered the enormous
psychological advantage =to the wearer= of being several inches
taller? Some short women favor high heels for the same reason that
short men put lifts in their shoes, or wear cowboy boots if they
can get away with it. For a woman trying to function
professionally in a male-dominated environment, the advantage of
being more nearly on a level with one's colleagues may far outweigh
a little physical discomfort. I bet that has a lot to do with why
Jenna favors substantial heels-- and why, for that matter, Avon
does too. ;)
As for high heels allegedly leading to injuries, I personally have
always found it to be just the opposite. I have a bad ankle that
has been sprained many times and broken once, and the accidents
always happen when I'm wearing flats, never with heels. My theory
is that the extra height of the heel gives a split-second extra to
recover one's balance if the foot starts to go down crooked,
whereas with a flat shoe all your weight has come down on it before
there's time to compensate and adjust.
Way back on 12/15, Russ Massey said:
>Intelligence and humour are big turn-ons, and to my mind Jan
>provides Cally with the impression that she is always thinking and
>understanding, as well as being aware of the inherent humour in
>the situations she's often in.
and Iain Coleman said:
>Basically, I (and by extension all men) go for the Strong Women.
>(Some women seem to think guys want fluffy simpering airheads - I
>can't think where they get that impression, but it's entirely
>fallacious). When I say "strong", I don't necessarily mean
>physical combat abilities (though I don't discount them), but
>rather strength of character and personality.
And then on 12/21 Alex Dering said:
>I think the whole thing about what are men attracted to is
>explained brilliantly by Berke Breathed, who used to draw Bloom
>County. In one strip, Binkley's father is having a dream sequence
>and this gorgeous young woman floats on it.
>Who are you? he asks.
>She replies that she is his dream wife.
>My dream wife?
>Yes, she continues, listing a few reasons why, ending with one of
>the truest lines I've ever read: "I'm almost, but not quite, as
>smart as you."
>
>And that, I think, is what an awful lot of guys - at least the
>hetero ones - are after in a woman. Someone who isn't going to
>out-think them.
Erm, Iain, I think Alex just explained why an awful lot of women
think that men prefer stupid bimbos. Because they've had the
experience of being ditched by guys they liked for being too
intelligent, that's why. The notion that it's OK for a female to
be smart as long as she's not =too= smart is not very consoling
somehow, because how can one know where any given man is going to
draw the line?
On 12/30, Sven asked:
>But we guys have always been puzzled over why women fall for men
>that will inevitably destroy them. The "treat 'em mean, keep 'em
>keen" attitude will have a lot of supporting empirical evidence,
>while the new-age snag approach often leads to a high heel in
>one's face.
>
>Why are women attracted to men such as Avon with whom a normal
>relationship would be inherent unstable and one-sided?
Other people have addressed this issue very eloquently already, but
just to sum up several points in reply:
1) It's not at all clear that Avon would necessarily be such bad
news in a relationship. Since he is perhaps the most ambiguous of
all the fascinatingly ambiguous B7 characters, the matter of his
attitude toward women can be (and has been-- check the archives)
argued back and forth at great length. But I think it can be said
that most of the women who find the character appealing consider
him to have the potential to be an unusually devoted mate, based on
his relationship with Anna, his avoidance of casual affairs (so
refreshingly different from the typical tomcat TV hero!), and his
behavior toward the female crew members (as opposed to female
enemies, who are another kettle of fish altogether).
2) As Judith pointed out, there's a big difference between sexual
fantasy and real-life desires. Avon's character may be ambiguous,
but Servalan's is unquestionably bad, and yet many male B7 fans
think she's very hot stuff indeed. Does that mean that they want
to be in real-life relationships with women who will inevitably
destroy them?
Or, to put it in more frivolous terms, for every woman who
jokingly says, "If he kissed me before he shot me, that would make
it all worthwhile," there's a man who says, "I'd be dead in a week,
but what a week!"
3) With regard to real-life romance, I think that the proverbial
blindness of love applies to both sexes. It's not just women who
show an inexplicable fondness for awful mates; I've known plenty of
men who stuck with nasty, crazy women even though nicer and more
attractive women were readily available to them. (I once read a
how-to-get-a-man book whose advice could be summed up as "Be a
total bitch, because that's what men really want.")
In general I would say that people of both sexes who stay in
a bad relationship do so either because they are getting something
else out of it (money, social status, great sex, whatever) that
makes it worth putting up with the bad parts, or because they have
already invested so much emotional energy in the relationship by
the time it goes seriously bad that they are reluctant to admit
that they have made a mistake and let go of it.
Sarah Thompson
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 98 05:58:00 GMT
From: s.thompson8@genie.geis.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Sex-- slash mode
Message-Id: <199801050616.GAA12156@rock103.genie.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Iain Coleman said:
> I can believe Blake is gay. I can believe Avon is bi. But I
>cannot believe they have sex with each other because I _know_ the
>kind of relationship they have, I've _been_ there and it just
>wasn't like that. Bloodless revolutions and other silly plots not
>only aren't in the same league of wrongness, they're in a
>completely different sport. Blake being naive violates his
>character, the good guys winning without cost violates the tone of
>the series, but Blake and Avon shagging violates everything I know
>about relationships between two men.
<deletions>
>Funnily enough, slash as simple porno titillation doesn't bother
>me at all. It's slash as an exploration of the Blake-Avon
>relationship that I have a problem with. I find that whole idea
>wrong, annoying, and hurtful. I'm amazed at myself, that I can
>feel that someone else's ideas about two fictional characters is
>hurting me by sneering at my deeply held friendships with real
>men, but there you go. I never was as rational as I like to think
>I am.
Actually, Iain, I find your feelings about the inappropriateness of
slashing B7 (or at least Blake and Avon) perfectly understandable,
because I feel that way myself about another, different fandom. I
won't name it because I'm hoping against hope that the slash fans
won't find it! The original product depicts an extremely intense
friendship between two men that is, however, very clearly not
sexual in nature. For me, adding sex would spoil the quality of
that relationship as it is.
But this is a matter of the individual fan's interpretation of the
particular characters. In the case of B7, I personally have no
problem sustaining various different interpretations of the
characters, including different interpretations of their sexuality
and their relationship with each other.
I do very much enjoy stories about an intense non-sexual
relationship between Blake and Avon. My favorites are the
wonderful Suzan Lovett stories that Judith has recently reprinted
in =The Road to Hell=; they have as much emotional impact for me as
good slash does, and I recommend them highly to both gen and slash
fans. I like them just the way they are and think that in the case
of these particular stories, adding sex would spoil their emotional
flavor. In other cases, however, the sex is essential to the
story.
Kathryn's argument against slash based on statistical probability
is one that I've heard before in a somewhat different form. I once
had a lengthy private e-mail discussion with a friend who said
that, given that roughly about 10% of the general population is
primarily homosexual (though I agree with Steve that it's really
probably a bit more than that), she could accept =one= of the main
series characters being gay or bi, but not two. So the only slash
stories she found believable were the ones that involved some other
minor or original character! She liked the treatment of Avon's
bisexuality in the Hellhound stories for this very reason.
However, it's important to remember that statistics only really
apply to large groups. 6 men, 5 women, and 3 AIs (the cast of
ongoing characters) is definitely not a statistically significant
sample. Given that, and the fact that the Beeb was so reticent
about sex in general on what was supposed to be at least partly a
children's show, I think we can pretty much postulate whatever we
please. For me, looking at all the different possibilities is a
big part of the fun of fannish erotica.
Kathryn also said:
>Disclaimer: most people here know that I don't like or read slash,
>for various reasons, and that the above reason (the
>it-is-out-of-character reason) is one of the smallest of them.
>But I'm not going to touch on the others, because discussions of
>morality are guaranteed to induce flamage, and the Spin List is
>the only place where I've seen such things successfully and
>intelligently discussed *without* flamage. Three cheers for all
>you intelligent and considerate folk who have made such a thing
>possible.
Kathryn, who exactly are you cheering here? Surely not Ross
Mallett, the owner of the spin list, who on this list has very
nastily attacked Peter Borg for merely reporting the anti-slash
policy of the Deliverance con, and has also attacked Judith for
recommending courtesy toward gen-only fans such as yourself? Not
to mention his earlier attack on me with a false claim that I share
your views on homosexuality, which I most certainly do not. I
don't call that intelligent or considerate behavior. Or are you
talking about some other spin list?
Sarah Thompson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 09:19:56 +1100
From: "Roger The Shrubber" <darrenro@ozonline.com.au>
To: "B7 Main List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] dorian crew
Message-Id: <199801050742.SAA06683@budapest.ozonline.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Jackie wrote
Add a maniac like Dorian to the mix...... oh YES!! pleeeese, someone write
the story!
*****
Dorian could have been a powerful ally had he been persuaded to join the
Blake side of the force ... his technical knowledge, general wisdom from
being alive so long, his insanity, his willingness to kill - he would have
fitted right in. Of course, it may be a problem deciding which job to give
his pet gestalt.
___________________________________
___________________________________
Darren r
Comments are welcome !
powerplay@cheerful.com
____________________________________
Legal note - This message is void in China, USA, Iran and all other
countries where free speech is prohibited by law.
______________________________________
"The Administration is out to get me"
_______________________________________
"In the end, winning is the only safety"
_________________________________________
"There are times when even confirmed cynics must trust to luck"
________________________________________
Was God an astronaut ?
_________________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634
Anxiety & Panic
_________________________________________
http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/2634/powerplay.html
Blake's 7 FAQ & other free stuff
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:54:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Sex-- het mode
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980105104732.10769A-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 s.thompson8@genie.geis.com wrote:
>
> Erm, Iain, I think Alex just explained why an awful lot of women
> think that men prefer stupid bimbos. Because they've had the
> experience of being ditched by guys they liked for being too
> intelligent, that's why. The notion that it's OK for a female to
> be smart as long as she's not =too= smart is not very consoling
> somehow, because how can one know where any given man is going to
> draw the line?
>
Well, I guess I'll take your word for it, though it's not something I've
ever seen happen. I suppose being consistently outclassed on a regular
basis might get a bit dispiriting. Maybe it takes a certain level of
self-esteem/arrogance on the guy's part not to worry about her being too
smart?
Probably what most people are after (in a long-term relationship) is an
equal partner,including roughly similar intellectual capabilities. This
may mean intelligent women being effectively forced to date arrogant
intellectuals rather than charming hunks: as a member of the former
category, I would certainly like to think so.
Intelligence is such a hard thing to pin down, though. I guess what is
more important (and more apparent) is the ability to think for oneself,
make decisions, have opinions, that kind of thing. It comes down to
respect. You can't really have a relationship with someone you don't
respect, and I'm afraid simpering bimbos just don't cut it with me.
It does get difficult at times, fighting off these hordes of beautiful
girls desperate to be my devoted love slave, but somehow I manage to evade
them.
Iain
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 23:17:35 +1100
From: Ross Mallett <hawkeye@bluedog.apana.org.au>
To: blake7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Sex-- slash mode
Message-Id: <v03110704b0d6794f532f@[202.12.90.67]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 5:58 AM +0000 5/1/98, s.thompson8@genie.geis.com wrote:
>Kathryn's argument against slash based on statistical probability
> is one that I've heard before in a somewhat different form. I once
> had a lengthy private e-mail discussion with a friend who said
> that, given that roughly about 10% of the general population is
> primarily homosexual (though I agree with Steve that it's really
> probably a bit more than that), she could accept =one= of the main
> series characters being gay or bi, but not two. So the only slash
> stories she found believable were the ones that involved some other
> minor or original character! She liked the treatment of Avon's
> bisexuality in the Hellhound stories for this very reason.
>
>However, it's important to remember that statistics only really
> apply to large groups. 6 men, 5 women, and 3 AIs (the cast of
> ongoing characters) is definitely not a statistically significant
> sample.
No, this is *totally* wrong. We are not trying to make predictions about
the general population based upon the sample, but on the sample based upon
the population. Therefore there is no such problem!
Let's crank through the statistics. We'll exclude the AIs and make three
reasonable assumptions:
(1) That the 11 characters are a random sample;
(2) That 10% of the general population is lesbigay;
(3) That this is a binary trait -- one either is or isn't
We can see from assumption (3) that the distribution is Binomial; for the
purpose of calculation, we'll use Poisson's approximation, Pr(x=n) =
exp(-m)*m**n/n! where n is the number of crewmen and m is the expected
value (or mean). (* is multiplication, ** is exponentiation, ! is factorial
and exp() is the exponential function).
We can calculate the expected number as 11 x 10% = 1.1. This yields the
following odds:
n=0: There is a 33% chance that no character is lesbigay
n=1: There is a 37% chance that one character is:
n=2: There is a 20% chance that two characters are!
n=3: There is a 7% chance that three characters are!
n=4: There is even a 2% chance that four characters are!
So I don't think your friend has done her math, because there is a 30%
probability, which is quite large, that two or more characters are so
inclined.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 12:20:58 +0100 GMT
From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re email junkie
Message-Id: <19835034MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
Julie Horner said: "I have got another one: You include your
Internet number as one of your BT Friends and Family
numbers."
I thought everyone did that!
Julie added: "Snag with this is that if you win the holiday
wouldn't you look really sad taking your PC and modem on a
safari or something."
I thought everyone did that as well.
cheers
Steve Rogerson
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
Make your own tribble! Buy a hamster and cut off its legs
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 12:21:48 +0100 GMT
From: STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel.org.uk
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Og-Gan
Message-Id: <19835072MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>
Pat P said: "ohmagawd! For a story that *no one's* ever written
before, try: Og/Gan!"
Don't tempt me. I would if I could work out a believable way
Gan could still be alive when Og turned up. I'd probably get
flamed though if I posted it on this list.
cheers
Steve Rogerson
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
Make your own tribble! Buy a hamster and cut off its legs
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 07:22:47 EST
From: Bizarro7 <Bizarro7@aol.com>
To: space-city@world.std.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Strazynski Gives Credit
Message-ID: <2b3ec977.34b0d099@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
For those of you who didn't watch the B5 special "Making Of" on TNT yet, the
creator of the show, JMS, credits "Blakes 7" first off and very explicitly as
an influence and inspiration for Babylon 5. Annie and I cheered!
Leah
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:50:04 +0000
From: Julia Jones <Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Og-Gan
Message-ID: <6ApexCA8bNs0Ew+0@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <19835072MCR1@MCR1.poptel.org.uk>, STEVE.ROGERSON@MCR1.poptel
.org.uk writes
>Pat P said: "ohmagawd! For a story that *no one's* ever written
>before, try: Og/Gan!"
>
>Don't tempt me. I would if I could work out a believable way
>Gan could still be alive when Og turned up. I'd probably get
>flamed though if I posted it on this list.
>
You had your chance on Space City when the thoroughly irreverent Black
Round Robin was on the go. We haven't had any new episodes for a while,
but we never officially buried it, so you can always drag Og out of
Blake's room and along to wherever the Tarrant Nostra left Gan.
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 00:12:09 +1100
From: Ross Mallett <hawkeye@bluedog.apana.org.au>
To: blake7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re Terminal, and an apology
Message-Id: <v03110706b0d6823369ff@[202.12.90.67]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 9:41 AM +1100 31/12/97, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
>On Tue, Dec 30, 1997 at 07:34:53AM -0500, AChevron wrote:
>> And this may have been discussed before, but I haven't come across
>>much on
>> it. How exactly did Earth/the Federation/ the Conglomerates manage to build
>> and then "lose" an entire artificial planet? I've not been able to develop a
>> theory I'm comfortable with, and I find this question even more intriguing
>> than how Servalan survived.
>
>Not only that, but (as I was discussing with Ross last night)
>- how did Dorian know about Terminal?
>- how did Dorian know that the Liberator was going to be there?
>- Since it seemed obvious that he was expecting the Liberator to be
>intact, what devious plan did he originally have for "persuading" the crew
>to come to Xenon?
What does Dorian know about Terminal?
Dorian: And I know this is Terminal. I know it's an
artificially modified planet. I know that
underneath the surface there's a load of valuable
gear waiting to be stripped out.
This, we know, is absolutely true. Dorian also knows a lot about the crew:
Tarrant: You've laid out seven glasses. One too many.
Vila: Not to worry. I'll drink the extra one.
Dayna: You know if Cally had escaped with us, there
wouldn't be an extra one.
He knows more than that:
Dorian: That's close enough. (coughs) One of the group
was killed before I got there. But the group
remains. Bound together by time and pain and the
need to survive. The death of the telepath will
make it more difficult. But they can still be
used. (coughs)
So here's my theory! Dorian has been eavesdropping on the Federation
communications. How he did this is a good question. I like Gareth's idea
about the Tariel Cells. Why did he do it? Its possible that he really is
interested in Terminal for its scrap value and has been listening in on the
entire plot and has picked up all the details about the planet, the plan
and the Liberator crew.
Anyhow, Dorian's impressed by Servalan's clever planning and reckons the
plan is near foolproof. He figures that Servalan will waste no time taking
the Liberator somewhere more interesting and under the plan, the crew are
left stranded on the planet at the end. So Dorian figures they will
gratefully accept a lift back to Xenon. He realises that they might decide
to beat him up and steal the ship, but he is gambling on them kidnapping
him. He doesn't allow for Orac, which he expects to find in its new
location on Servalan's desk.
As to how long ago Ensor went into hiding, from Orac:
ZEN: It appears that Ensor took a vacation on a frontier planet.
While there he suffered a massive heart attack. Medical
facilities were primitive. The only available transplant
was a mechanical heart powered by microcells. They have a
life of about forty Earth years.
BLAKE: All of which happened about forty years ago.
CALLY: But didn't they substitute an organic unit once he got back?
BLAKE: That's just the point, he never did get back. He
disappeared. He and his four year old son simply vanished.
They've never been heard of since.
From Rescue:
Avon: Orac was the culmination of his life's work.
(Avon pulls out Orac's key) He bequeathed it to
an associate of mine... who bequeathed it to me.
You must have been very young when you met Ensor.
Dorian: Must I?
Avon: He spent the last twenty years of his life in
hiding.
Dorian: Well, then I must have been very young.
The two episodes are in contradiction here. It doesn't foillow that Ensor
immediately went into hiding but gee, to take twenty years to get around to
something! Also, his son looks older than 24 but maybe Hovell's Radiation..
Actually, Kathryn came up with another mystery of Terminal: its location.
From the eponymous episode:
AVON: [V.O.] Zen, nearest planet capable of supporting carbon-based life.
ZEN: [V.O.] Disentastra.
AVON: [V.O.] Transit time at standard by eight.
ZEN: [V.O.] Ninety-six hours, seventeen minutes, and four point three
zero three seconds.
However, it sure doesn't take them four days to fly to Xenon!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 1998 10:06:44 -0500
From: Susan Beth <sbs@world.std.com>
To: blake7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Sex-- slash mode
Message-Id: <3.0.4.32.19980105100644.0068ea6c@world.std.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
s.thompson8@genie.geis.com wrote:
>Kathryn's argument against slash based on statistical probability
> is one that I've heard before in a somewhat different form. I once
> had a lengthy private e-mail discussion with a friend who said
> that, given that roughly about 10% of the general population is
> primarily homosexual (though I agree with Steve that it's really
> probably a bit more than that), she could accept =one= of the main
> series characters being gay or bi, but not two. So the only slash
> stories she found believable were the ones that involved some other
> minor or original character! She liked the treatment of Avon's
> bisexuality in the Hellhound stories for this very reason.
>
>However, it's important to remember that statistics only really
> apply to large groups. 6 men, 5 women, and 3 AIs (the cast of
> ongoing characters) is definitely not a statistically significant
> sample. Given that, and the fact that the Beeb was so reticent
> about sex in general on what was supposed to be at least partly a
> children's show, I think we can pretty much postulate whatever we
> please. For me, looking at all the different possibilities is a
> big part of the fun of fannish erotica.
Besides that point, there's also the likelihood that someone who feels/is
outside the "norm" of his society sexually is more likely to step/be forced
outside it in other ways, and therefore the percentages of bi/gays might be
quite a bit higher in the subset criminals/political rebels.
It would be quite easy to invent pasts for most of the characters in which
their homosexual/bisexual *played a role* in their ending up in the crew.
Let's see....
Blake. As a young boy he realized he was gay, and that according to his
society this was wrong. After much agonizing, he comes to the conclusion
that anything that came that naturally to him *couldn't* be wrong,
therefore Society's restrictions against it were wrong. Now that his eyes
were opened to the arbitrariness of the society, he started noticing other
ways in which the Feds were wrong/not living up to how things should be,
and set out to agitate for reforms.
Avon. As a young boy he realized he was gay, and quickly figured out that
if this became known not even his brilliance with computers would protect
his job/social standing. Therefore he decided preemptively to use his
skills to gain him so much wealth that it would insulate him from that danger.
Vila. Besides tendencies towards crime, perhaps the Feds also seize on
that excuse to eliminate "deviant" sexual impulses while they "adjust" the
minds of criminals. Since one's sexuality is such a deeply ingrained,
beyond conscious control, thing (which I do believe, btw) *that* part
always failed on Vila, and the cracks in the conditioning led to all the
rest of it coming apart as well. Therefore Vila is a residual criminal and
ends up on the London BECAUSE he was bi.
Jenna. Her distaste for heterosexuality led to her rejecting the "normal"
path of marriage/children. This left her free to indulge her taste for a
more exciting path as a Life On The Edge Of Things smuggler.
Cally. Like Blake, her gayness was the first thing that brought her
"difference" from the rest into her consciousness. Once you've "rebelled"
against society in one way, it's easier to follow your own conscience vs.
Society's teachings in other ways. Not being a natural pacifist, shortly
she found herself looking for a less contented group to hang out with, and
therefore is off Auronar fighting and available to be recruited.
Tarrant. We never get the background of his leaving the Fed service, do
we? Given his evident skill, and the possession of the usual "military
virtues" of courage, devotion to duty, group spirit and all that, shouldn't
he have fitted in just fine? So.....couldn't he have fallen afoul of a
version of Don't Ask, Don't Tell?
Soolin. Much like Cally -- the idea of a sedate life as wife to a farmer
held zero appeal both for reasons of sex and combativeness.
Gan. I'm not inclined to invent a bi/gay past for him, unless you want to
consider his whole story about the death of his woman a lie and that the
limiter was really aimed at controlling sexual deviancy. (Hmmm. Actually,
I've read that some convicted rapists, especially child molesters, tell
their fellow inmates that they are murderers instead -- they get higher
status/less opprobrium that way.)
Dayna. She basically didn't have a society to react against, so she falls
outside this game.
Mind, I'm not saying I believe any of these backgrounds IS true, I just
want to point out that it isn't unbelievable that a random scoop of
criminals & rebels would have a higher percentage of non-heterosexuality
than the general population PROVIDED that non-heterosexuality is
discriminated against by their society.
Susan Beth
(sbs@world.std.com)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 17:17:20 -0000
From: "Heather Smith" <Heather.Smith@btinternet.com>
To: "Blake's 7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Og-Gan
Message-Id: <E0xpGFb-0003rP-00@snow.btinternet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve said
> Don't tempt me. I would if I could work out a believable way
> Gan could still be alive when Og turned up. I'd probably get
> flamed though if I posted it on this list.
Please! Write it! Write it now! Getting thinking boyoh!
Heather 'can't think of a clever quote to go here' Smith
'There's no point in being grown up if you can't be childish'
-The fourth Doctor
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:56:24 -0500 (EST)
From: NWOutsider <sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] The Way Back 4/4
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.95.980105134808.9886A-100000@alpha.bgsu.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Sun, 4 Jan 1998, Pat Patera wrote:
> Wow. Sue, what are you on? And where can I get some?
Woo hoo! Someone actually read it! 8-) The Space Fall
comments won't be as long.
What I'm on is a complex chemical compound...more of a process,
actually...created by drinking large quantities of coffee and Diet Pepsi
(separately) throughout the day and equally large quantities of cheap
white wine (I favor Almaden's Big Box o' Booze (TM)) in the evening.
> PS. Yes, Jenna and Vila would be great story partners
Glad you like it. 8-)
Sue
sclerc@bgnet.bgsu.edu http://www.bgsu.edu/~sclerc/Blakes7.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:25:31 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] "Out of death was I born...."
Message-ID: <19980105192531.33400@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sun, Jan 04, 1998 at 09:17:01PM +0000, Meredith Dixon wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:47:08 +1100, Kathryn Andersen wrote:
>
> >A whole bag of Gens? Maybe they were Liliputian Gens.
> >And to think, Avon and Tarrant were secretly Simes all this time!
> >Hmmm, puts another slant on that "kiss of death" don't it?
>
> Avon's a Sime, no question, and Tarrant and Cally and Vila are quick
> and graceful enough to be Simes too.
>
> Gan and Blake are definitely Gens, and when Blake gets worked up about
> something he influences the ambient nager on the Liberator. This is
> why Avon keeps feeling that Blake is manipulating them...he is.
> Whether he's doing so consciously or unconsciously can be decided by
> your interpretation of Blake.
I agree, Avon is Sime and Blake is definitely Gen; Avon, of course, is
attracted to Blake as a transfer partner; they're probably closely
matched. Which accounts for their whole interdependence and Avon's
ambivalence towards Blake; he doesn't *want* to be dependent on Blake, but
he is.
You're right, Gan is definitely a Gen; he's got Gen build and Gen
emotional stability, and a caring nature.
> I'm less sure about the others. I think Jenna must be Sime also,
> otherwise the Blake-Avon-Jenna dynamic of the first season wouldn't
> work out well at all. (I know I just said I don't care for explicit
> sex, but I can just see a story in which Avon and Jenna (nearly?)
> come to blows because they both want to take transfer from Blake.)
>
> Hm. There's a problem here, though. That gives us Avon, Jenna, Cally
> and Vila as Simes, and only Gan and Blake as Gens. And I can't see
> any of those four as a channel, can you? Cally's definitely a Sime.
> Avon's definitely a Sime. So either Jenna or Vila has to be Gen. I
> guess it's got to be Jenna after all; in a Sime-Gen world, I can't see
> a Gen succeeding as a thief.
Hmmm. I hadn't thought about it, but I guess Cally *would* have to be a
Sime; her whole my-people-are-quick thing, her thin-and-fast-ness point
her to be a Sime. But I also felt that Cally *did* contribute to the
stability of the group when she was there - so maybe she's a channel.
A very strong and sensitive Channel (ties in with her telepathy, neh?)
Gypsy-trained, of course! (-8
I don't really see why Vila couldn't be a Gen, though. Or are you saying
that without Sime senses, there's no way he could be as excellent a thief
as he is? Hmmm. He doesn't *feel* like a Sime, though.
> So, Avon, Cally, and Vila are Simes, Blake, Jenna and Gan are Gens.
> Orac doesn't affect the equation, but Gan's death certainly does.
> They probably raid off-ship while they're looking for Star One.
> At the start of the third season, we still have Avon, Cally and Vila,
> and they're joined by Tarrant and Dayna. Tarrant's a Sime, and I'd
> assume that weapons-specialist Dayna is also. And naturally Soolin
> is, too. This in itself goes a long way toward explaining the
> difference between the first two seasons and the second two...first
> and second season, they're a balanced set of transfer partners; third
> and fourth seasons they're a hunting pack of Sime raiders.
Dayna doesn't need to be a Sime; just because she designs weapons doesn't
mean she has to be Sime. I expect Hal Mellanby was Gen.
I propose this for the third season; Avon and Tarrant are Simes, Cally is
a Channel, I'm not sure about Vila and Dayna.
When Cally died, the situation became less stable, because they'd lost
their one strong Channel, so they *did* have to raid.
Servalan, of course, is Sime.
> You know, this *works*. :)
Frightening, isn't it. (-8
Kathryn Andersen
(who hasn't read House of Zeor for years, and doesn't have her copy any more)
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
"As ever, Dayna. Gaudy but effective."
-- Del Tarrant remarking on a new gun (Blake's 7: Death Watch [C12])
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://connexus.apana.org.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "std/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:02:17 +0000
From: Russ Massey <russ@wriding.demon.co.uk>
To: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Slash debate
Message-ID: <PWwvwOAZpUs0EwpG@wriding.demon.co.uk>
In message <Pine.OSF.3.96.971231175153.8654A-100000@bsauasc>, Iain
Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk> writes
>
>I told myself I wouldn't get involved. But then,
>
>On Wed, 31 Dec 1997, NWOutsider wrote:
>
>> Since the original author of the pieces Russ has been posting is not
>> on this list, I haven't responded to any them--the guy's not here, why
>> bother. But here we have Russ's own opinion and since Russ is here...
>>
>> Tue, 23 Dec 1997 Russ Massey wrote:
>>
>> >As I understand it, Neil's main objection is that in order to accomodate
>> >the tropes of a slash story the characters have to be distorted beyond
>> >recognition. Broadly I tend to agree.
>>
>> I gave up reading fan fic because I got tired of the many stories that
>> distort the characters beyond recognition: The sweet, sensitive Avons; the
>> genius Vilas; the stupid, naive Blakes; the evil, devious Blakes; the
>> omniscient Avons; the homicidally jealous Jennas. Needless to say, these
>> show up with equal frequency in gen and slash. An intense relationship
>> between Blake and Avon is a given: it's there on screen.
>
>This is where the problem starts for me (and perhaps for Russ and Neil
>too).
>
Indeed. Distortion of character is the one unforgivable sin that causes me to
stop reading whatever I'm reading and discard it, no matter how gripping the
plot, or entrhalling the theme or portic the language. Of course, no author
ever sees a character exactly the same way, so every reader draws the line in
a different place...
>I have a few male friends with whom I have a close, intense relationship.
>These relationships are in no way sexual.
>
>I find it very difficult to write about this, because I don't think the
>vocabulary exists yet. The Iron John drumming-in-the-woods stuff is maybe
>an attempt to find such a vocabulary, but it doesn't quite come off.
>
>Avon and Blake obviously, so obviously don't have a sexual relationship
>because they so obviously have a strong, close bond between them that is
>of a completely different character.
>
I think that's a good way of saying something that I couldn't quite put my
finger on.
>Now I'm straight, but I can imagine what it would be like to think of men
>the way I think of women. I can imagine being sexually attracted to men:
>in fact, I can think of a few men who I would almost certainly fancy if I
>were gay. I can imagine falling in love with a man.
>
>Close friendship is just as deep, just as intense, just as important. But
>it is fundamentally different, not just sexual-love-without-sex.
>
>I can believe Blake is gay. I can believe Avon is bi. But I cannot believe
>they have sex with each other because I _know_ the kind of relationship
>they have, I've _been_ there and it just wasn't like that.
But then I can imagine their relationship gradually changing due to the events
of a story so that they *would* have sex with each other. It just has to be a
damn convincing story and probably quite a lengthy one so that the character
growth isn't too rushed as to be unconvincing.
> Bloodless
>revolutions and other silly plots not only aren't in the same league of
>wrongness, they're in a completely different sport. Blake being naive
>violates his character, the good guys winning without cost violates the
>tone of the series, but Blake and Avon shagging violates everything I know
>about relationships between two men.
>
>I have a background in cosmology, which means I'm comfortable with making
>sweeping statements based on small-number statistics, knowing that I could
>be making a total arse of myself. There seems to be a definite gender
>division on this point. I think women generally just don't grasp this kind
>of relationship. I think that's why slash seems to be written largely by
>and for women.
>
I think the key phrase in Neil's article was his musing on men being
emotionally 'mis-humanised' in slash in a similar way that women are
physically and mentally dehumanised in male-written porn. It might be less
offensive to the men being distorted, but it still makes me raise an eyebrow in
the same way I do when someone writes about a 40lb broadsword.
>I was reluctant to enter this discussion, because it's the sort of subject
>where people can seriously offend each other without meaning to.
You're not kidding! I've been surprised at the level of ire generated by what
was (to my mind) a moderately well-reasoned and fairly inoffensive musing
on the nature of slash. Neil would certainly not have taken offense at any of
the comments (and I'll send him copies, so I'll let you know if I'm wrong
about that), but it's a pity that he's not here to be able to expand on and
defend his views - something I'm certainly not qualified to do, even assuming
I agreed with everything he said.
One thing I can definitely state. At no time was he advocating censorship of
any form of fan fiction. Suggestions that he was are incorrect.
<snipped Iain's end piece>
--
Russ Massey
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:16:58 -0000
From: "Jennifer Beavan" <J.Beavan@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] "Out of death was I born...."
Message-Id: <E0xpKFd-0005pw-00@helium.btinternet.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Isn't there a Sime/Gen B/A in the old Liberator fantasies?
Jennifer
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #4
************************************