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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 251
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news)
Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news)
Fwd: [B7L] Soolin
Re: [B7L] PELADON 98 UK Convention update
[B7L] Re: SC: Vere Lorrimer
[B7L] Project Avalon
[B7L] Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news)
Re: [B7L] Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news)
Re: [B7L] Project Avalon
Re: [B7L] Soolin
Re: [B7L] Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news)
[B7L] More News From "Horizon"
Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 14:02:21 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news)
Message-ID: <686f4030.3615152d@aol.com>
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Alison wrote:
> Oh yes, I want to keep this thread going. Lots of lovely chat about Vila.
Sounds good to me. There are times when I think I understand Vila, and other
times I don't think even Vila understands Vila. He's a very complex man.
> '.. <difficult to> distinguish between him being stupid just to get people
> off their guard, pretending to be stupid just because he couldn't be
> bothered to think and wanted someone else to do it for him, pretending to
> be outrageously stupid to hide the fact that he actually didn't understand
> what was going on, and really being genuinely stupid.'
That's very apt for Vila. A question that occurs to me is how often were his
shipmates able to distinguish which of those applied to Vila.
Let's just look at STARDRIVE.
Avon and Tarrant bought Vila's stupid act. They thought his words of wisdom on
the bubble forcewall were drunken babbling.
Of further Vila interest, why did Vila feel it necessary to brag to Soolin and
Dayna about pulling the wool over his male shipmates' eyes? Wouldn't it have
been more prudent in the long run to save that trick to use again? From now
on Soolin and Dayna are going to be suspicious.
Moving on to some Vila comments that Deborah made (which I pondered while
doing mindless grunt work this morning):
> Well, I've got a slightly different take on this one. At the point of
> "City", I don't believe that Tarrant really appreciated Vila's talents. It
> was simply that Vila was a useful commodity to be traded for something
> really
> useful, and, if he actually carried out the task he'd been hired for, then
> maybe all of the hype about Vila had some basis in fact. He certainly
didn't
> treat Vila like someone who he thought was particularly capable.
I questioned my own feelings in light of your views and reviewed canon and
still came up with the same conclusion. Most things suggest to me that
Tarrant would have viewed Vila as capable. Mind you, he also had good
evidence that Vila liked to avoid work and danger (hence his frustrations),
but no evidence that Vila couldn't accomplish his assignments (and more).
Let's review the situation.
Tarrant arrives on Liberator and expects to find a capable crew of rebels.
After all, with greater numbers and greater resources the Federation hasn't
been able to capture or stop Liberator. So Tarrant's first instinct would be
to view Vila as skilled and capable. Then there is what Tarrant has seen of
Vila up to CITY. He's seen a man who saved Liberator in VOLCANO (after Avon
is injured, Vila saves the ship). In Dawn Tarrant (and Avon) thought Vila was
capable of exploring the situation outside the ship:
AVON: Someone who has a talent for opening locked doors.
TARRANT: And has demonstrated a grasp of the problems involved.
Later moments in DAWN suggest a friendly affection between Vila and Tarrant,
and a mutual respect for each other. There's this little exchange:
VILA: I'm now in the inspection compartment. (V.O.) I am now
depressurizing. I am now trying to open the hatch.
TARRANT: (V.O.suit comm) Use your delicate skillful touch.
VILA: (Stomps on hatch, which gives) I used my delicate
skillful boot.
There's nothing to suggest Tarrant regards Vila as an expendable "useful
commodity." When Vila appears to be in trouble, Tarrant is genuinely
concerned:
VILA: Oh..agh!
TARRANT: Vila, what happened.
and here:
VILA: Well, of course I'm sure! So would you be if you were
in the mess I'm in. If I let go, God knows how far I'll fall.
TARRANT: (V.O.) Drop something. See how far it falls.
and here:
VILA: What do you want me to do now?
AVON: Circle out from the ship.
TARRANT: But don't go too far.
and even moreso here:
VILA: Avon. Tarrant. The ground's vibrating. (sees lights
approach) There's something coming.
TARRANT: Vila, get back to the ship.
VILA: It's a beautiful light. So beautiful.
TARRANT: Vila, run. You must get back to the ship.
VILA: So beautiful.
TARRANT: Cally, make him run.
If Vila were just a useful commodity, Tarrant should have had him stick around
to find out what the problem was. It might have given Tarrant some idea of
how to combat it. Instead, Tarrant tells Vila to get out of there.
And when Vila gets into trouble, whom does he call for help?
VILA: Tarrant! I've holed my spacesuit! I'm losing pressure!
Tarrant next calls for scanners and weaponry, but something destroys the
scanner. Despite this potent and unknown danger, Tarrant respects Vila enough
to risk facing whatever is out there to retrieve Vila's body:
TARRANT: I'll go and fetch him. We can deep freeze his body
until we're back into space, where we can give him a decent star
orbit burial.
Tarrant shows further pre-CITY evidence of Vila's capabilities in HARVEST. He
puts Vila (not Dayna) in charge of the flight deck when he (Tarrant) goes
looking for Cally. And Vila doesn't let him down. Vila keeps the Federation
at bay, even destroys a pursuit ship, while Tarrant is gone.
The only thing I can see that might cause Tarrant to doubt Vila's abilities in
those early episodes is if Tarrant takes Avon's criticisms of Vila seriously.
In POWERPLAY, we get these comments on Vila from Avon:
AVON: And too intelligent for Vila.
TARRANT: It was an even bet.
and
AVON: That one's Cally. I'll introduce her more formally
when she wakes up. This one is Vila. I should really
introduce him now, he's at his best when he's
unconscious.
If anyone gave Tarrant cause to doubt Vila's worth, it was Vila's old buddy
Avon.
> By Games, he had seen Vila in action enough to appreciate his skill in
> his
> specialty, but I don't think he was comfortable with leaving him as the
> reserve. In the situation, all the choices were poor ones, and I suspect he
> figured that a) Avon would come to bail out Vila, and b) Vila would ensure
> Avon would rescue them. The strong-arm rescuing, after all, is not Vila's
> forte. As it was, the resourceful chap found another way of accomplishing
> the
> mission, so all ended well.
Again, Tarrant had the choice of leaving Dayna or Vila for back-up. He chose
Vila and Vila did do the job. Since I give Tarrant credit for brains and
ability (and can come up with canonical incidents to support that supposition
<g>), I can believe he realized that strong-arm rescuing probably wasn't what
would be called for (or he'd have left Dayna). When you have one against
superior odds, the sneaky rescuer--Vila--is the better choice, and the one
Tarrant made. Which isn't to say that Tarrant wasn't hoping that Avon was
back up for the back up, but it wasn't anything he could count on. Avon
hadn't responded to attempts to communicate with them. Avon might have been
long gone from the system or the ship might even have been destroyed.
> Enough for now; don't want to get the fires too stoked up before E-Con:)
No fires; I enjoy debates, especially when canonical corroboration can be
called into play. It's one thing to have hunches, but it's better when one
can support hunches with canonical fact. You've forced me to consider this
subject in more depth and to find support for my hunches.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 13:10:15 -0500
From: "Lorna B." <msdelta@magnolia.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news)
Message-Id: <199810021811.NAA04610@pemberton.magnolia.net>
Carol said:
>Let's just look at STARDRIVE.
>
>Avon and Tarrant bought Vila's stupid act. They thought his words of wisdom
on
>the bubble forcewall were drunken babbling.
>
>Of further Vila interest, why did Vila feel it necessary to brag to Soolin
and
>Dayna about pulling the wool over his male shipmates' eyes? Wouldn't it
have
>been more prudent in the long run to save that trick to use again? From
now
>on Soolin and Dayna are going to be suspicious.
I figured it was yet another move in his never-ending quest to get one of
the ladies to give him a tumble. IOW, he was trying to impress them. Vila
has never been too shy to brag about himself!
Lorna B.
"Cookies and porn? You're the best mom ever!"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 15:07:28 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Fwd: [B7L] Soolin
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Judith accidentally sent this to me instead of to the list.
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Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 19:21:14 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Soolin
To: Carol McCoy <Mac4781@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <1832e441.3614b44b@aol.com>
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On Fri 02 Oct, Mac4781@aol.com wrote:
> This brings up something about Vila that crossed my mind last night (was
doing
> some B7 pondering while cursing the baseball game, which wasn't going to my
> liking <g>). If we are to believe him, he was incarcerated at the tender
age
> of 14, and it was suggested that wasn't his only time "behind bars." We
know
> for certain that he was an imprisoned criminal at the beginning of the
series.
> Someone who had experienced multiple incarcerations had to have a toughness
> about him. The image of him as a cowering victim to Tarrant's (or anyone's)
> bullying just doesn't fit with a hardened criminal. I can't see that Vila
was
> all as frightened or bullied as some fans would suggest. I think that was
> mostly his avoid work and danger persona (which I can't fault; I like to
avoid
> danger and work myself). Part of me believes that Vila could have made
> mincemeat of Tarrant (in a very sneaky way) if he had been as disturbed by
> Tarrant's treatment as fans are disturbed on his behalf.
I have to disagree there. Having spent a lot of time behind bars doesn't
necessarily make someone tough. They may develop strategies for survival, but
that's not the same thing.
Vila's desire to appear as inconspicuous and as harmless as possible may well
have been his adaptation to life in prison. 'You don't have to beat me up to
prove you're tough; I'll concede the point in advance.'
Why on Earth should a regular criminal be more resistant to bullying? Someone
who has been bullied a lot tends to become more of a victim, not less. Just
ask
any mum whose kids have been bullied at school. Bullying did enormous damage
to
my oldest son until he finally found a teacher who gave him the support he
needed.
Victims don't strike back at their tormenters, that's part of what being a
victim is about. The damage is mental as well as physical.
I think Vila exaggerated his own 'coward' persona to get out of work, but I
don't see him as a strong character - see his reaction in episodes like
'Horizon' or 'Hostage' when he is threatened with torture or pain. He cracks
very quickly.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
--part0_907355248_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 08:08:24 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] PELADON 98 UK Convention update
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1002070824-0b0Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Fri 02 Oct, SuzanThoms@aol.com wrote:
>
> << Events Inc Presents
> PELADON 98
> 35th Anniversary Dr Who
> & 20th Anniversary Blakes 7
> Convention
> 21st & 22nd November 98 >>
>
> Does anyone know if there is a chance Paul Darrow will attend?
Paul has never been on their invitation list. (Discworld did mention that
they'd invited Paul, so his presence there wasn't totally unexpected)
According to Horizon's recent comments, they think Micheal Keating isn't certain
(if I remember correctly they said he's only been asked verbally, but not in
writing - though that was a couple of weeks ago) However, Jackie Pearce was
definately confirmed.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 18:38:21 +0100
From: Julia Jones <julia.SC@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: space-city@world.std.com
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: SC: Vere Lorrimer
Message-ID: <vkcBDOAN+QF2EwPl@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <Pine.SOL.3.95q.981002124106.17255B-
100000@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>, U.M. Mccormack <umm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk>
writes
>I hope people haven't minded these extensive reminiscences. I only met
>Vere on 3 quite brief occasions but he was, quite simply, unforgettable.
Not at all. Thanks for sharing.
--
Julia Jones
"One of the most basic rules for survival on any planet is never to upset
someone wearing black leather" - Terry Pratchett, _The Last Continent_
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 17:16:31 -0400
From: Jane MacDonald <cylanmaster@compuserve.com>
To: blakes7 lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Project Avalon
Message-ID: <199810021716_MC2-5B6F-CB1C@compuserve.com>
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I have just been watching Project Avalon and something is puzzling me.
If the virus has a life of only 28 seconds, how was it supposed to spread
throughout the liberator in that time.
Surely Travis wasn't relying on the whole crew to be in the vicinity of the
virus when it was dropped?
What do people think?
Cylan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Oct 1998 22:10:57 EDT
From: SuzanThoms@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news)
Message-ID: <f883e70f.361587b1@aol.com>
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<<Alison wrote:
<< Oh yes, I want to keep this thread going. Lots of lovely chat about Vila.
>>
I've never been able to care for Vila since his actions in "Spacefall" --
dropping the gun then saying he got confused is proof to me that Vila is
exaclty what he appears to be; i.e., a coward who can't be trusted or counted
on. That doesn't mean I don't like Vila as a B7 character, I just don't care
for him -- if that makes sense.
Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon,
Don't mind me, I never see any Avon discussion on either list and I just
wanted to see his name. :) Fortunately, there does seem to be lots of stuff
on my second fave, Tarrant. I've come to the conclusion there just aren't
many Avon fans on the lists. Ah, well <sniffle> I'll learn to live with it.
In the meantime...
Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon, Avon
Suzanne
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 08:21:56 +0100
From: Julia Jones <Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news)
Message-ID: <7buJuAAUCdF2Ewfx@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <f883e70f.361587b1@aol.com>, SuzanThoms@aol.com writes
>I've come to the conclusion there just aren't
>many Avon fans on the lists.
ROFL!
There are lots of Avon fans. It's just that the discussion on both lists
tends to go in cycles. There are times when the non-Avonphiles politely
and not so politely ask us to shut up for a bit...
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 12:42:15 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Project Avalon
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-1003114215-06cRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Fri 02 Oct, Jane MacDonald wrote:
> I have just been watching Project Avalon and something is puzzling me.
> If the virus has a life of only 28 seconds, how was it supposed to spread
> throughout the liberator in that time.
> Surely Travis wasn't relying on the whole crew to be in the vicinity of the
> virus when it was dropped?
> What do people think?
I think it's a darn good question!
Without rewatching the episode, here's my of the cuff guess.
I think there's two things - how fast the virus acted and how it was neutralised
afterwards. Wasn't there something on the screen that said 'neutralising'?
This suggests that there was a counter-agent that neutralised the virus.
Presumably this was introduced into the chamber after the man was dead.
If this was the case, then the neutralising agent could have been released on
Liberator once the crew were dead.
The question that always bugs me in this epside is why the android didn't
release the virus the instant it came on board Liberator.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 09:03:17 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Soolin
Message-ID: <ba89f57d.36162095@aol.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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I've pretty much already presented all my reasoning on the following subject,
and this weekend is busy, so I'm going to try to keep my comments brief:
Judith P wrote:
> I have to disagree there. Having spent a lot of time behind bars doesn't
> necessarily make someone tough. They may develop strategies for survival,
> but that's not the same thing.
I think it would most likely make someone who has been incarcerated that often
tough, or else Vila would have broken entirely. Just the ability to develop
coping strategies indicates a degree of toughness.
> Vila's desire to appear as inconspicuous and as harmless as possible may
> well
> have been his adaptation to life in prison.
Except that I've already reported on incidents (in prison) where he isn't
trying to be as inconspicuous as possible. It's Vila's inconsistencies that
make me believe there is more there than a cowing victim.
> Someone
> who has been bullied a lot tends to become more of a victim, not less.
Except that not everyone succumbs to bullying. Another reaction to being
bullied is learning to face up to the bullies. It can make a person stronger
and more confident in himself/herself. Vila gives every impression of being
able to stand up for himself. Look at how he talks back to Tarrant in CITY,
brushes Tarrant's gun away in MOLOCH, reacts with fury (rather than timidness)
when he and Avon are back on Scorpio in ORBIT.
> Victims don't strike back at their tormenters, that's part of what being a
> victim is about. The damage is mental as well as physical.
Exactly. But Vila DOES strike back at his tormenters. He's not become a
victim.
> I think Vila exaggerated his own 'coward' persona to get out of work, but I
> don't see him as a strong character - see his reaction in episodes like
> 'Horizon' or 'Hostage' when he is threatened with torture or pain. He
> cracks very quickly.
I wouldn't call him a strong character, but I wouldn't call him a weak one
either. He's something in between. I see his reaction in HORIZON and HOSTAGE
more as pragmatism than victimization. He knows there's nothing to be gained
(except pain) by resisting. Vila is very, very good at adapting to any given
situation. He plays life like a poker game: He knows when to hold them and he
knows when to fold them.
Una, I've been meaning to mention how very touching I found your comments on
Vere. Thank you very much for sharing them.
Suzanne wrote:
> Don't mind me, I never see any Avon discussion on either list and I just
> wanted to see his name. :)
Why not try to start some Avon threads? If you keep plugging away, something
is bound to stir some interest. The more discussions the merrier.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 08:12:22 -0500
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news)
Message-Id: <199810031313.IAA26122@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
SuzanThoms@aol.com wrote:
>Don't mind me, I never see any Avon discussion on either list and I just
>wanted to see his name.
Er, haven't been around long, I take it?
- Lisa
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@ti.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
New Riders of the Golden Age: http://www.warhorse.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Oct 1998 15:29:58 +0100
From: JMR <jager@clara.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] More News From "Horizon"
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19981003152958.00693a04@clara.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
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STEVEN PACEY in MUSIC OF LIFE Charity Gala (just confirmed)
+The Music of Life+ is a Charity Gala for the Breast Cancer Campaign, at
the Palace Theatre, Shaftesbury Avenue, London W1 at 7pm on Sunday 1st
November 1998.
Directed by Simon Callow, conceived and produced by Lesley Cox and
Sharon Eckman, the magnificent cast includes STEVEN PACEY, Nickolas
Grace, Richard Wilson, Annette Crosbie, Christopher Cazenove, Les
Dennis, Hugh Jackman, Con O'Neill, Lindsey Coulson (Carol from
+Eastenders+), Amanda Holden, Margaret Richardson, Roger Allam, George
Asprey, Sharon D Clarke, Kathryn Evans, the Original 1960's Tiller
Girls, the cast of the West End show +Grease+ and a supporting cast of
West End singers.
"One man in his time plays many parts, his acts being seven ages...."
An original themed Gala based on Shakespeare's "Seven Ages of Man" - it
celebrates life from its beginnings through Childhood, First Love,
Marriage, 'that Seven Year Itch', and finally Growing Older. Using music
and words from Gilbert & Sullivan to Gershwin to Sondheim and from
Shakespeare to Roald Dahl.
It is being produced by Reckless Productions in aid of the Breast Cancer
Campaign (charity Reg. No. 299758) which funds education and research
into breast cancer.
Tickets are on sale now from the Palace Theatre box office (0171-434
0909 - no booking fee) or from Ticketmaster (24 hours with booking fee -
0171 344 4444)
Ticket prices are from £15 to £45, with a £75 special ticket which
includes an after show Celebrity Reception.
This is going to be an AMAZING show, and Horizon is organising a Group
Outing to see it, so if you'd like to join us all, call Diane Gies
(0181-904 5588) or email her at diane@horizon.org.uk as she is holding a
block of tickets. (Or just book direct if you prefer). In any case,
Steven will be happy to say "hello" afterwards, and it is expected
(though not yet confirmed) that others of the B7 cast and crew will also
be in the audience (along with many other stars of stage and TV).
J.M. Rolls
jager@clara.net
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Oct 1998 18:40:15 EDT
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]: Soolin (was Soolin/sorrowful news)
Message-ID: <2e644492.3616a7cf@aol.com>
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In a message dated 98-10-02 14:06:44 EDT, you write:
<< Avon and Tarrant bought Vila's stupid act. They thought his words of wisdom
on
the bubble forcewall were drunken babbling. >>
I've never really made my mind up on that one. I' sure Tarrant believes
it(I'm not as bewitched as you are by the smile:) but I've wondered about
Avon. This strikes me more as a throwback to the Gambit era, when they were
comfortable with one another and the little tricks they pulled on the others.
Avon simply rewarded Vila by allowing him the excuse out of work. Had the
nature of the work been somewhat different, I suspect he wouldn't have let him
off that easy. By this time Avon is starting to go well into his shell; this
may be one of the last moments he allows himself to indulge in a minor
conspiracy with Vila./
What is more amazing is that Vila so readily drops the story. Yes, he is
trying to impress the girls( or at least Soolin, since Dayna's formed her
opinion of him by now), but once he lets his little secret out, it will be
more difficult to pull off later. but then, Vila doesn't think in the long-
term, it seems, and I rather suspect he has a nice long list of other ideas to
avoid something so mundane as real work. D. Rose
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End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #251
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