From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se
Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #224
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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 224
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] (no subject)
[B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Re: [B7L] (no subject)
[B7L] Newbies
RE: [B7L] Re: a response to a response
Re: [B7L] "Avon-like" natures
[B7L] Re: a response to a response
Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Re: [B7L] "Avon-like" natures
Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
[B7L] Re: responses
[B7L] Re: Avon Without Guilt
Re: [B7L] (no subject)
Re: [B7L] "Avon-like" natures
RE: [B7L] "Avon-like" natures
Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Re: [B7L] "Avon-like" natures
Re: [B7L] "Avon-like" natures
Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:32:01 EDT
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] (no subject)
Message-ID: <aee65c48.35e810e1@aol.com>>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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In a message dated 98-08-28 22:02:03 EDT, you write:
<< but I'm only just realizing how
much trouble you can get into if you say or do the wrong thing. I think I'll
"lurk" from now on.
Thanks, Suzanne >>
Don't be too bashful; I started out with a rather nasty posting about
Tarrant, to be roundly turned on by certain defenders of the Toothy One. This
in turn led to some dialog, in which I clarified some points that had been
miscontrued in my original posting, some things were pointed out to me that I
hadn't thought off, and we agreed to disagree. The result: I'm quite friendly
with the person who was the first to bring me to task on my opinions. So long
as you don't assume malicious intent, I think you'll find most responces, even
if they sound harsh, are actually geared to elicit further commentary rather
than to quell any disagreement.
Either that, or I'm too hard-headed to take anything personally:) D.
Rose
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:18:08 +0100
From: Julia Jones <Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Message-ID: <bafs8SAwN+51Ewm1@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <44443ccf.35e74289@aol.com>, DCsquared@aol.com writes
>Gee whiz, guys! I don't think Gwynn is the only one who hasn't read the
>netiquette handbook!
No, she isn't, and that's why some of us are getting pretty hacked off
about it, enough to make it a general post to encourage the others,
rather than the usual private email. Sorry to drag you in again, Gwynn,
you should know from a private email that it's not aimed at you
personally, you were just unlucky enough to be the one who triggered it.
As I said in my original post - this *has* been mentioned here before,
and fairly recently. A lot of people went right on doing it. I would
imagine that's why the ListDad was so brusque - he's usually politer
than that. How many times do you expect us to say "please don't do that"
before we stop being polite?
There's no need to stop posting for fear of offending the netcops.
Unintentional breaches are usually treated much more gently - it's just
that the recent epidemic of it has made some of us (even) more grouchy
than usual.
Calle, what are the prospects of automailing new subscribers with an
appropriate URL and request to read it?
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:14:07 +0100
From: Julia Jones <Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] (no subject)
Message-ID: <+VPV$aA$qB61EwqO@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <aee65c48.35e810e1@aol.com>, AChevron@aol.com writes
> Either that, or I'm too hard-headed to take anything personally:)
Yeah, Deborah, you're a real hard nut, a really scary person, wouldn't
want to be anywhere near you....
In case anyone thinks I actually mean this, I should point out that
Deborah and I have roomed together at a con, and will do so again in the
future. Are we going to get in a game of Paranoia this time?
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 18:20:27 +0100
From: "Kate Gordon" <kateg@ndirect.co.uk>
To: "Blakes 7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Newbies
Message-ID: <00be01bdd371$62977460$4ee107c3@doofer>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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To all newbies. Last year I returned home exhausted after spending a vigil
of several weeks in hospital where my son was dangerously ill. I was removed
from the list as over 300 messages had piled up unread in the space of
several weeks. At the time it was such a blow as collecting e-mail was not a
priority. However I didn't take it personally (life is too short to sulk)
and I re-subscribed a few months later and still enjoy the list (with all
it's characters). The more the merrier but please lets have less squabbles
and more B7.
Kate
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 19:40:53 +-200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: "'Blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Re: a response to a response
Message-Id: <01BDD384.F24B3200@nl-arn-lap0063>
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<< Maybe it was my own ignorant plunge into cyberspace, but I tend
to assume that Net offenses are the result of ignorance such as
I was guilty of. It's not that people wouldn't confirm to Netiquette,
they don't know it exists. >>
< Glad someone could see this.
We could all see it, and I guess Calle did come over a little testy (and =
that only a short time after someone on this list called him the =
"father" of our little family. Trying to be a strict daddy, Calle?). But =
on this list, as on any other, peoples tempers sometimes run short.
In this case, there was some, admittedly curt, commentary about one =
specific type of behaviour. Not about any persons. I know it was an =
answer to your posting, Gwynn, but you may recall that Calle said that =
his comment was not just about that particular posting.
But anyway, if anyone goes into permanent lurkdom because of one testy =
answer, I can't imagine them fitting in on any list. Ignoring the =
occasional flare of temper and enjoying the rest of what's going on here =
might be a better idea.
Jacqueline
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 13:38:43 EDT
From: DCsquared@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] "Avon-like" natures
Message-ID: <9b8c95ef.35e83ca3@aol.com>>
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In a message dated 8/29/98 10:09:37 AM Central Daylight Time,
Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk writes:
> No, she isn't, and that's why some of us are getting pretty hacked off
> about it,
I guess I just don't get it. It would ruin my day if I allowed myself to get
"hacked off" over little things. I try to save any negative emotions for the
few really important things in life that I just can't possibly ignore. It
just doesn't seem worth it to get yourself and others in a stew over
netiquette violations. But then my everyday disposition is more Zenish than
Avonish (...not that I don't adore Avon you understand!). Just my opinion...
Maybe that's a good place to redirect our energies. Which character on B7
most accurately reflects everyone's personality? Anyone out there who admits
to being Vila-ish? (We promise not to inform the authorities...)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Donna Chlouber
Keeper of Zen's Wisdom
B7 Novice Writer's Group
http://members.aol.com/DCsquared/mainframe.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:12:19 EDT
From: ShilLance@aol.com
To: ShelaB7@aol.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: a response to a response
Message-ID: <3ef6f083.35e84483@aol.com>>
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In a message dated 98-08-28 22:19:37 EDT, ShelaB7 writes:
<< >>Julia Jones wrote:
>>If the lists weren't so quiet right now, I wouldn't have seen the
>>offending post, because Gwynn is one of the people I killfile when
>>I can't read everything. And that's because Gwynn is one of the
>>people who has apparently never read a guide to netiquette.
>
>Gwynn wrote:
>Once again......i'm sorry. I didn't realize there was a guide to
netiquette.
>I'll stick to lurking so as to stay out of your (and anyone else who might
>have a problem with me) way.
I must applaud you. You're handling this better than I could. I made a
mistake on the list, got dinged for it, and went into lurking. Where I've
been hiding for months now.
I'm still trying to figure out what you did that was so wrong and why the
post from Julia is so hostile.
It's nice to know there are some nice lurkers out there. *smile*
Take care
Shela Ma >>
Thanks,
As an American (maybe the source of my stupidity) and a Southerner (possibly
another source) there just isn't much exposure to B7 for me, beyond this
list. Hence, the decision to lurk instead of unsubscribe.
Thanks Hela
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:17:51 EDT
From: ShilLance@aol.com
To: Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Message-ID: <5112b712.35e845cf@aol.com>>
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In a message dated 98-08-29 11:09:37 EDT, Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk
writes:
<< >Gee whiz, guys! I don't think Gwynn is the only one who hasn't read the
>netiquette handbook!
No, she isn't, >>
Hey!!!!! That she is a he!!!!!
Er.......is this a violation of that nettiquette thingamajig? :-)
Gwynn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:28:12 EDT
From: ShilLance@aol.com
To: DCsquared@aol.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] "Avon-like" natures
Message-ID: <3a008682.35e8483c@aol.com>>
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In a message dated 98-08-29 13:41:01 EDT, DCsquared@aol.com writes:
<< Maybe that's a good place to redirect our energies. Which character on B7
most accurately reflects everyone's personality? Anyone out there who admits
to being Vila-ish? (We promise not to inform the authorities...)
>>
Delurking:
I guess I'm Tarrant. I tend to make stupid mistakes without realizing it and
irritating nice people on mailing lists that I've never met, even though I'm
basically a nice guy.
And before anyone gets upset. I'm a Tarrant fan....its just that he was
written this way.
Gwynn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:29:40 EDT
From: ShilLance@aol.com
To: DCsquared@aol.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Message-ID: <3f0e3093.35e84894@aol.com>>
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In a message dated 98-08-28 20:10:01 EDT, DCsquared@aol.com writes:
<< If the lists weren't so
> quiet right now, I wouldn't have seen the offending post, because Gwynn
> is one of the people I killfile when I can't read everything. And
> that's because Gwynn is one of the people who has apparently never read
> a guide to netiquette. >>
How is this possible when I don't use "gwynn" in my list name.
Gwynn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:31:58 EDT
From: ShilLance@aol.com
To: DCsquared@aol.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Message-ID: <540be613.35e8491e@aol.com>>
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In a message dated 98-08-28 20:10:01 EDT, DCsquared@aol.com writes:
<< Yes, I finally
ran across the netiquette rules, but I didn't ALWAYS know about them. Lucky
for me, most folks back then were pretty tolerant of newbies, and I wasn't
publicly chastised and embarrassed. Have we all been listers for so long
that
we feel entitled to laugh at other folks mistakes? >>
Believe it or not Donna, after lurking for a year, I only heard about them
this past month. Perhaps ther's someway we can let new list members know
about these "rules".
Gwynn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 19:35:47 +0100
From: Julia Jones <Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: ShilLance@aol.com
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Message-ID: <3QQHO1ADoE61Ew7G@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <5112b712.35e845cf@aol.com>, ShilLance@aol.com writes
>
>Hey!!!!! That she is a he!!!!!
>
>Er.......is this a violation of that nettiquette thingamajig? :-)
Nope.
Sorry about that, Gwynn, the people by that name I've met in person have
been of the female persuasion, so that's my default setting when I don't
have any evidence to the contrary. Even if you have mentioned it before,
it may not have registered with me.
You aren't the only one to suffer from this. Calle has a *lot* of people
making the wrong assumptions from his name, I can't imagine why :-)
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:32:34 EDT
From: ShilLance@aol.com
To: Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Message-ID: <aa63b81b.35e86562@aol.com>>
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In a message dated 98-08-29 14:37:50 EDT, Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk
writes:
<< You aren't the only one to suffer from this. Calle has a *lot* of people
making the wrong assumptions from his name, I can't imagine why :-) >>
Actually, I assumed "he" was a "she".
Gwynn
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 20:00:36 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: responses
Message-ID: <199808292001_MC2-57C4-B31E@compuserve.com>
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No, you're not listening, I don't want you to lurk! Just send shorter
messages in more readable format.
Not intending to sound arrogant, merely exasperated at people taking
offence so easily.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 98 05:10:00 GMT
From: s.thompson8@genie.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon Without Guilt
Message-Id: <199808300510.FAA22164@rock103.genie.net>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
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Ann Basart asked:
>Has anyone out there read Barbara Paul's new mystery, "Full Frontal
>Murder," in which one of the principal characters (Holland) is very much
>Avon, and most of the secondary
>characters are named after people or even places in B7? (It's dedicated to
>"the Avon-Without-Guilt gang.") If so, I'd be interested in your comments &
>reactions. And any info on the author you might have.
>
>TIA, Ann
>abasart@dnai.com
Ann, the author has a wonderful website that will give you all kinds of info
about Holland and Avon, as well as about her other books. I can't find the
url at the moment, but there should be links from other B7 sites.
Aha! No, wait, here it is:
www.lit-arts.com/bpaul/holland.htm
Enjoy! Among other things, there's a little essay by me about how I
discovered the series.
=Full Frontal Murder= is the fourth book. The others are, in order:
=You Have the Right to Remain Silent= (my own favorite)
=The Apostrophe Thief=
=Fare Play=
They are great fun for Avon fans.
Barbara Paul is an excellent mystery writer who also does a bit of science
fiction-- she has many other books still available. It's hard to
characterize her writing as she likes to experiment, and each book is
different. But IMO they're all good.
Yes, I'm one of the Avon Without Guilt gang who used to chat with Barbara
about Holland and his resemblance to Avon on the Science Fiction Round Table
BBS on GEnie a few years ago. You may be grimly amused to know that the
name of this rather informal organization has to do with a flamewar that
took place on this very list in about 1995 or so, in which non-Avon fans
were attacking Avon fans for having such tacky taste in lust objects. We
got tired of the attempts to make us feel guilty for liking Avon, hence the
name.
(I gather that newer Avon fans have been getting some of the same sort of
crap, only in private e-mail. I'm sorry to hear it. Maybe it's time to
induct some new members into AWG.)
Re: Netiquette, gee, whatever happened to the school of thought that
maintained that courtesy is inherently American (!!), and therefore the
practice of screaming foul insults on line is actually a brave display of
resistance to cultural imperialism. That was extensively discussed on this
list at one time...
Sarah T.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 01:38:05 EDT
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] (no subject)
Message-ID: <74438aee.35e8e53d@aol.com>>
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In a message dated 98-08-29 12:42:36 EDT, you write:
<< Are we going to get in a game of Paranoia this time?
-- >>
I certainly hope so; there's E-Con, and Redemption, unless THEY try and stop
us...Deborah
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 01:45:39 EDT
From: AChevron@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] "Avon-like" natures
Message-ID: <3702ff3f.35e8e703@aol.com>>
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In a message dated 98-08-29 14:31:07 EDT, you write:
<< Which character on B7
most accurately reflects everyone's personality? Anyone out there who
admits
to being Vila-ish? (We promise not to inform the authorities...) >>
Actually, I guess I do feel rather Vila-ish. I think I have a bit more
physical courage than he has, though it's more likely I'm addicted to
adreneline, as in rush, as in doing stupid things like running into burning
buildings when normal people are running out.
But more importantly, Vila strikes me as being closest of the characters to
myself, in that one minute I'm a genius, good at what I do, and utterly
confident at handling anything my proffesion throws at me, while at the next
capable of the most stupid stunts, acts of forgetfullness, or willful ignoring
of certain realities. Vila is the most flawed of the characters, but the most
human in some ways. While I would love to be more like Avon, the 'pure'
intellect so in control of myself, it's Vila with his alternating roles of
wise man, fool, peacemaker, and tension-reliever that seems to fit me most
closely. Deborah Rose
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 11:25:11 +-200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: "blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] "Avon-like" natures
Message-Id: <01BDD408.DDC14660@nl-arn-lap0063>
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<Maybe that's a good place to redirect our energies. Which character <on B7
<most accurately reflects everyone's personality? Anyone out there <who admits
<to being Vila-ish? (We promise not to inform the authorities...)
Me, I've always loved Servalan. But I guess my personality is something in between Avon and Vila. I usually try to tackle any problems I run into by being logical about it (sometimes to the extreme annoyance of those around me) but quite a few times I wind up blundering something fierce.
By the way, although Servalan is my favourite character, Avon is a good second. Does that qualify me for the Avon Without Guilt club, or is putting Avon in second place a hanging offence with you guys?
Bye,
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 08:38:38 +1000
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Message-ID: <19980830083838.10099@welkin.apana.org.au>
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On Sat, Aug 29, 1998 at 04:32:34PM -0400, ShilLance@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 98-08-29 14:37:50 EDT, Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk
> writes:
>
> << You aren't the only one to suffer from this. Calle has a *lot* of people
> making the wrong assumptions from his name, I can't imagine why :-) >>
>
> Actually, I assumed "he" was a "she".
*Exactly*. Most people do. Assume that Calle is a she.
Does anyone have any Deliverance photos which capture our Esteemed
List Father on film? I can't remember if I ever got a decent shot of
him... or if it's up on my web page or not, with all the Deliverance
pics. If it is, it would be in a group photo, so you wouldn't be able
to tell which one was Calle.
Do I have an Avon-like nature? Well if we went by the Meyers-Brigs
testing results of a few months ago, I'm a cross between Cally and
Avon! <evil grin> Hmmm, does that mean I resemble one of their
hypothetical offspring?
Kathryn A.
-=-=-=-=-=-
"I've always thought individuals with a high bionic rebuild
were more reliable..."
-- Space Commander Travis, on mutoids
(Blake's 7: Seek - Locate - Destroy [A6])
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 07:17:42 -0400
From: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu (Carol A. McCoy)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] "Avon-like" natures
Message-ID: <199808301117.HAA01335@yfn.ysu.edu>
Gwynn (a he; I'm also guilty of assuming "she") wrote:
>I guess I'm Tarrant. I tend to make stupid mistakes without realizing it and
>irritating nice people on mailing lists that I've never met, even though I'm
>basically a nice guy.
What a sweet observation about Tarrant. Sometimes I think it boils
down to his very niceness irritating people. As Avon said (and this
quote won't be accurate): "He's young, brave and handsome; those
are three reasons for people to dislike him."
>And before anyone gets upset. I'm a Tarrant fan....its just that he was
>written this way.
And many of us like him exactly as he was written. Aside from the
mistakes (which only make him more human in my eyes), he was brave
and loyal. And there were many instances when his skills and
intelligence were of value to the team.
Gwynn, it's great to find a rare, male Tarrant fan. You have
good taste!
As to which character I'm like, one of my perennial con
roommates likens me to Servalan in a t-shirt. Which I
take to be a compliment. I admire Servalan's ambition
and how nothing gets in the way of her goals. Now if
I only shared her fashion sense as well...
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 07:37:48 EDT
From: ShilLance@aol.com
To: ay648@yfn.ysu.edu, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] "Avon-like" natures
Message-ID: <c327ef99.35e9398c@aol.com>>
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In a message dated 98-08-30 07:20:43 EDT, ay648@yfn.ysu.edu writes:
<< Gwynn, it's great to find a rare, male Tarrant fan. You have
good taste!>>
Thanks.
<<As to which character I'm like, one of my perennial con
roommates likens me to Servalan in a t-shirt. Which I
take to be a compliment. I admire Servalan's ambition
and how nothing gets in the way of her goals. Now if
I only shared her fashion sense as well... >>
That's one I hadn't heard....Servalan in a t-shirt. And I may be in the
minority.....but I didn't like Servalan's fashion sense. I thought it was all
wrong, especially when she was in the field.
Gwynn
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 16:29:42 +0100
From: Julia Jones <Julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: responses of an "Avon-like" nature
Message-ID: <Hwt2UEAm$W61Ew+I@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <19980830083838.10099@welkin.apana.org.au>, Kathryn Andersen
<kat@welkin.apana.org.au> writes
>*Exactly*. Most people do. Assume that Calle is a she.
>Does anyone have any Deliverance photos which capture our Esteemed
>List Father on film?
There's one of mine on Judith's website
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
although I can't remember the URL. It may be somewhere other than the
Convention section - I think she might have used it as a portrait of the
Lysator ListDad on the "other websites and mailing lists" page rather
than as part of the batch of Deliverance photos.
It's the one she refers to as proof that Calle looks like Elric - well,
nobody would have sat still for a photo if I'd switched the anti-redeye
feature on, it works by flashing a light at the vict^H subject for about
three seconds.
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #224
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