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blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 208
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Relationships
Re: [B7L] Jenna
[B7L] B7, Hamlet, other lit
Re: [B7L] Relationships
RE: [B7L] Jenna
Re: [B7L] Drinks of Water
[B7L] Relationships
Re: [B7L]UK Gold Intros
Re: [B7L] Relationships
Re: [B7L] Jenna
Re: [B7L] Relationships
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 02:44:31 PDT
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Relationships
Message-ID: <19980803094431.18878.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Hi there:
One of my first intentions this week had been to return to the
Hamlet/Othello/Blake thread, but my attention has been sidetracked by a
conversation I had during the weekend. An old friend was discussing her
relationships, and confessed that she had impossibly high romantic
ideals. She's addicted to Nineteenth Century romantic novels, and she
seems to be waiting for some kind of Heathcliffe figure to step into her
life. In every other respect, she's a good, strong Nineties woman, but
I honestly believe her ideals have been moulded by the literature she's
read.
If you accept that this can happen, I was wondering how that process
would affect me. You see, for me -- and I'm curious to find out if I'm
unique in this aspect -- the most electrifying literary relationships
have all been non-sexual. Of all these relationships, my top three
would be (in descending order):
-- (From "The House of the Spirits": Isabel Allende's book) Esteban
Trueba and his granddaughter. This is about an old and broken man, who
has lost everything he loves and paid for his sins tenfold, then finds
the relationship he had been waiting for all his life, at the end of his
life. Warning: this relationship is not covered in the film, so read
the book if you want to know what I'm banging on about.
-- Blake and Avon. Far more moving than Avon and Anna, I have to
stress. Of "Rumours of Death" and "Terminal", the latter was
significantly more tragic and more convincing. It was interesting that
Avon could forgive Servalan for her part in the Anna Grant conspiracy
(She knew who Bartholomew was, after all), but not for what she did to
him on Terminal.
-- (From "Three Colours Red") Valentine and the Judge. Of the three
films, Red, White and Blue, all of which focus on human relationships,
this one is the only one which focuses on a non-sexual relationship. It
also stands head and shoulders above the other two, because of the
mysterious, timeless bond between fashion model Valentine and an
embittered retired judge.
One way to look at this is to say it's just my own predilections at
work. Another is to say that human relationships can be far deeper and
more intense if they're not bound to the traditional romantic or sexual
ideals. Any thoughts on this?
-- Rob
PS. I despise the word "Platonic", which is why I've been using the
ugly, clinical "non-sexual" alternative. I'd be grateful if someone
could come up with something more appropriate.
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:09:28 +0100
From: "spudgun" <spudgun@dial.pipex.com>
To: "Judith Proctor" <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>,
"Lysator List" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna
Message-Id: <199808031438.QAA16714@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Your last question is quite an interesting one. I was recently off work ill
for a week and predictably spent much of my day watching TV. The only two
programmes I enjoyed watching were Sesame Street and The Jerry Springer
Show. The Jerry Springer show is on every day and I watched with a sort of
horrified fascination. The fact that there was always a woman somewhere on
the stage, standing up swearing and yelling the odds at everyone in a
Harlem accent was okay, though it was difficult to make out what she was
saying through all the beeps. What I found incredible was that the actual
content of what was being said was usually crass, Insensitive and
stultifyingly ill-informed. Yet whenever one of these women started one of
their vulgar monologues it was always met with a round of applause, 'wops',
yeah's' and general all round approval from the female members of the
audience. I realise this is off topic, and that The Jerry Springer Show is
American, however I would be interested as to why this attitude seems to be
linked with strength.
Spudgun
----------
> From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
> To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
> Subject: [B7L] Jenna
> Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 08:58
>
> I disagree with Katharine. I don't think Blake was flirting with Inga in
> 'Hostage'. The more I see that episode, the more it comes across as
cousinly
> affection and not romance.
>
> I think Jenna was annoyed because she only saw them together for a few
moments
> and read it the wrong way. I think the kiss is actually on hte cheek and
not on
> the lips even, though I'd have to watch again to be certain.
>
> Jenna and Blake may well not have had a sexual relationship. I think
there was
> attraction on both sides, but Blake was very focused on his fight against
the
> Federation and that may not allowed him to fully commit himself anywhere
else.
>
>
> Would Jenna have settled for a casual relationship? How do people see
her in
> this regard? (I think she might have done, but that Blake was an all or
nothing
> man)
>
>
> I'd agree with Roger that Jenna might be really foul-mouthed in a move,
though I
> disagree about Avon. I don't see Avon as swearing at all. He doesn't
need to
> with his ability at sarcasm.
>
> Actually, has it become a cliche that strong woman have to swear a lot
just to
> prove that they are tough?
>
> Judith
>
> --
> http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7
>
> Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention
> 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent
> http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:27:31 -0700
From: "Ann Basart" <abasart@dnai.com>
To: "Blake's7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] B7, Hamlet, other lit
Message-Id: <199808031525.IAA17681@mercury.dnai.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I've been enjoying the discussion on Hamlet, Iago, and B7.
Along these lines, can anyone tell me whether there are other episodes or
characters, besides Dorian in "Rescue," based on literary sources?
It's been a long time since I read Oscar Wilde's "Portrait of Dorian Grey,"
but it seems to me that Dorian, in speaking of his own corruption, may be
paraphrasing the book (of course in "Rescue," Dorian had a "room," rather
than a portrait, hidden away):
Dorian: The room exists, Avon. And since I found it I haven't aged
one day. It cleanses me of all the corruptions of time and appetite.
Avon: Appetite?
Dorian: I can do anything, Avon.
Avon: Most madmen can.
Dorian: I can indulge any taste, any sensation, any vice I wish and
the room ...
Avon: Cleanses you.
Dorian: Exactly.
Avon: You really are insane, aren't you?
Dorian: By now I probably would be.
Avon: If it wasn't for this mysterious room.
Dorian: And what it contains.
Soolin: (enters) And what might that be, Dorian?
Dorian: Ah, Soolin. I was just about to summon you.
Soolin: Not with a gun in your hand. What does the room contain,
Dorian?
Dorian: All the madness and rotting corruption which would have been
mine. It contains horror, Soolin.
Avon: And this horror? It shows itself to you, does it?
Dorian: It will show itself to all of us.
Soolin: I think not.
But my question is really whether anyone knows of other such literary
connections in B7.
Thanks,
Ann
abasart@dnai.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:54:34 +0100 (BST)
From: Iain Coleman <ijc@mail.nerc-bas.ac.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Relationships
Message-Id: <Pine.OSF.3.96.980803175020.3589D-100000@bsauasc>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Rob Clother wrote:
> One way to look at this is to say it's just my own predilections at
> work. Another is to say that human relationships can be far deeper and
> more intense if they're not bound to the traditional romantic or sexual
> ideals. Any thoughts on this?
Not necessarily deeper or more intense, but certainly more interesting to
an outsider. When you ask "why do these people have such a strong bond
between them" and the answer is "they fancy each other" - fair enough, but
it's pretty boring. If there's something deeper in their characters which
makes them need each other, you have much more potential for interesting
drama.
Iain
>
> PS. I despise the word "Platonic", which is why I've been using the
> ugly, clinical "non-sexual" alternative. I'd be grateful if someone
> could come up with something more appropriate.
>
Dry?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 19:24:41 +-200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Jenna
Message-Id: <01BDBF14.5DCCDCC0@nl-arn-lap0063>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Jerry Springer is on every day in Holland, too. Horrified fascination does seem to be the only way to watch it these days. As for the cheers when a woman is swearing: in that show, swearing has somehow become entertainment, even when it isn't very imaginative and in fact makes her look incredibly dumb. Strength has very little to do with it, except for when compared to the old-fashioned feminine ideal of being very quiet and in the background. Compared to that everyone on that show is very "strong".
Personally, I have always thought that the leading ladies in B7 all showed a lot of strength and they obviously didn't need swearing to do so. I don't think foul language would make them look any better, either. More realistic, perhaps, but not better.
Jacqueline
Your last question is quite an interesting one. I was recently off work ill
for a week and predictably spent much of my day watching TV. The only two
programmes I enjoyed watching were Sesame Street and The Jerry Springer
Show. The Jerry Springer show is on every day and I watched with a sort of
horrified fascination. The fact that there was always a woman somewhere on
the stage, standing up swearing and yelling the odds at everyone in a
Harlem accent was okay, though it was difficult to make out what she was
saying through all the beeps. What I found incredible was that the actual
content of what was being said was usually crass, Insensitive and
stultifyingly ill-informed. Yet whenever one of these women started one of
their vulgar monologues it was always met with a round of applause, 'wops',
yeah's' and general all round approval from the female members of the
audience. I realise this is off topic, and that The Jerry Springer Show is
American, however I would be interested as to why this attitude seems to be
linked with strength.
Spudgun
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:58:40 +0100
From: "Jenni -Alison" <Jenni-Alison@dial.pipex.com>
To: "Lysator List" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Drinks of Water
Message-Id: <199808031620.SAA21789@samantha.lysator.liu.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Rob wrote:
> >Carol wrote
> >Couldn't we at least modify that to a big, tasty, scenic drink of
> >water? <sniff> ;-)
>
>
> I was going to indulge you in this. Then I remembered his Season 4
> haircut. How about a glass of Thames water, overlooking Battersea power
> station?
>
> Hm. I wonder what Jenni would make of that...
Aha! A Challenge!
Right, well anything supporting as much microscopic life as the Thames must
be full of life and energy, and Tarrant was full of life and energy.
(Appologies to Mr Pratchett for blatant plagarism)
Also, Battersea power station - tall chimneys, upright and erect against
the skyline, daring and bold in their defiance of those who want to turn
them into a funfair....
I'm struggling!
No, it's no good. I give in. But I'll be back!
<evil laughter fades into the distance>
Jenni
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:28:48 +1200
From: Nicola Collie <nicola.collie@stonebow.otago.ac.nz>
To: B7-list <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Relationships
Message-Id: <l03130301b1ebcc267e6c@[139.80.16.149]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Rob said
[snippage]
>PS. I despise the word "Platonic", which is why I've been using the
>ugly, clinical "non-sexual" alternative. I'd be grateful if someone
>could come up with something more appropriate.
Par'n my miniscule classical background, but why do you hate the word
platonic so much? To me it sounds much better than non-sexual, which I
think implies that the relationship is like a sexual one but with the sex
taken away (if you know what I mean).
If you want an alternative to platonic, how about something building on
either of the Greek words agape or filia - I understand they refer to
different kinds of love, without referring to sex (eros). Maybe agapic or
filiac?
O'course, you'd then have to explain what you meant every time you used
them - not a problem with platonic, as it's a reasonably well-known word.
ttfn, Nicola
---
Nicola Collie mailto:nicola.collie@stonebow.otago.ac.nz
Telepathy means never having to say " ".
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 23:16:53 +0100
From: JMR <jager@clara.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]UK Gold Intros
Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980803231653.006b1cc4@clara.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 15:48 02/08/98 +0100, Julie Horner wrote:
> I noticed that UK Gold don't seem to be using Paul's introductions to
>the episodes anymore. This morning was Project Avalon which he definitely
>did an intro for last time through so I switched on specially just to see
>that - but no! Can anyone think why they wouldn't use them when they
>have already got them? Julie Horner
As I understand it (from Diane Gies), UK Gold don't actually have the
trailers any more. The BBC bought UK Gold last year, and revamped their
format for the Sunday morning SF slot - dumping Glen Allen who had done
both B7 and DW intros for quite a while, and also stopping the intros Paul
had recorded for B7.
I suspect that if you didn't manage to tape the intros the first time
round, you won't get another chance, because it seems that they ditched the
recordings. Typical BBC.
Judith
J.M. Rolls
jager@clara.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 23:06:40 PDT
From: "Edith Spencer" <sueno45@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Relationships
Message-ID: <19980804060641.6168.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
To all, particular Rob:
Interesting comments on the types of relationships that we come
to relish based on the type of literature we read or shows that we
watched. Part of the reason for that is that many of the writers are
particularly gifted people with a unique view of the human condition. (
Speaking of current tv, only JMS of B5 particularly seems to have this
talent.) this writers and artist seem to have the ability to pick out
idealistic threads and present them to us in such a way that seems
hyperreal. Yes I made up that word, but I'm an American :). What I mean
by the term is that the ideals and emotions are so so fine, so complex
and yet so very connected to what is desired in real life, that it is
part of our reality and yet stands alone. I have to agree to a point
that sometimes the most intense relationships are non sexual ones, and
the Blake - Avon duo is part of that. Because they so seeming different,
with opposite views on things, you would think that would try to kill
each other. But it develops into an uneasy, tricky friendship. Now, the
slashers may have a differing viewpoint :) but there it is. And I think
the term you may want to use is Agapos, the
love that comes out of intense friendship, parent-child or describing a
relationship with God. It is a Greek term. Romantic love would be Eros
(of course.)
Edith
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 23:31:55 PDT
From: "Edith Spencer" <sueno45@hotmail.com>
To: spudgun@dial.pipex.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna
Message-ID: <19980804063156.20989.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
To all and Spudgun (great name),
The horrified fascination that you describe in watching
the Jerry Springer show is part of its enormous success. It exploits ill
educated, underemployed people with a host of terrible personal
problems. They call the shows, tell of the problems they have at home
and are treated to couple of days in Chicago in a nice hotel with a bar
tab and meals out. In exchange they get to tell their story on tv. This
dubious bit of fame is probably all they would have that worth anything
to them.And becasue these people are not treated gently and with
respect, their language is equally rough.( this is not to say all
working class people are rough talkers- I have met janitors and
mechanics with elegant, beautiful speech.) In regard to Jenna and
whether she would swear or not, I think she would say something in
extreme duress, but she did not strike as being crass or crude. She
seems quite intelligent, specially if she was smuggler, and could
probably do better than say "F44k off". Besides, it is more fun to come
up with rejoiners than crass sailor talk ( I have been known to do
both:)
Edith ( not Piaf)
P.S. Please don't watch those types of shows. It is nasty and degrading.
Watch more sesame street, watch more b7 or b5, read a book, read fan
fiction, pick weeds, pick flowers, make frozen custard,make cake, make
love, read a book to a child in your area, get a massage, give a
massage, sing...but don't watch that crap.
with love, Edith
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 11:42:20 PDT
From: "Rob Clother" <whitehorse_dream@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Relationships
Message-ID: <19980804184223.18749.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
>Rob said
>[snippage]
>>PS. I despise the word "Platonic", which is why I've been using the
>>ugly, clinical "non-sexual" alternative. I'd be grateful if someone
>>could come up with something more appropriate.
>
>Par'n my miniscule classical background
On this list I shouldn't think there's any need to apologise for that!
It's fair game here to air your opinions, which will be corrected if
they're factually inaccurate -- then everyone learns something. That's
the attitude I've been adopting, anyway.
>but why do you hate the word platonic so much?
"Platonic" is idealistic: it implies that somehow you're closer to the
"Real World", of which our material World is only a shadow. So, a
Platonic relationship is ethereal: it lies above and outside romantic or
sexual imperatives. At this point, I'm getting a little worried,
because this only seems to back up the points I was making in my
original posting. Romantic and sexual imperatives can tie a
relationship down and limit its potential, and Plato's whole point was
that enlightenment comes from freeing oneself of the bonds of the
material World.
I suppose my objection is that a fraternal, filial or agapic
relationship (Thanks for the suggestions!) is not necessarily any less
materialistic than a sexual one: it's just motivated by different needs.
And I'm not sure the material World is that restrictive anyway. To
justify this, I can only cite a piece of bar-room science I heard
someone come up with the other day. The estimated number of molecules
in the Universe is 10^102 (1 with 102 zeroes tagged onto the end). The
estimated number of positions on a chessboard is 10^120 (This shouldn't
be too hard to check, but I'll take it as read for the moment). The
estimated number of connections in the human brain is 10^800. Looking
at it like that, I don't see the material World placing any restrictions
on anything.
Anyway, I think this has some relevance to B7, if only tangential, and
that's my excuse for posting it on the list.
-- Rob
PS:
>Telepathy means never having to say " ".
Nice quote!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Rob Clother
Leeds
http://www.amsta.leeds.ac.uk/~rob
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #208
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