From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #88 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/88 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 88 Today's Topics: [B7L] Horizon 2.0a Re: [B7L] horizon [B7L] Oops (re Horizon). Re: [B7L] Horizon 2.0/*Wild* accusations! [B7L] Re:Horizon Re: [B7L] horizon Re: [B7L] Re: Guest Stars Re: [B7L] Avon and That Image Re: [B7L] Horizon 2.0a Re: [B7L] Horizon 2.0a [B7L] Horizon... [B7L] Horizon [B7L] Horizon Re: [B7L] Horizon... [B7L] B7 information. Re: [B7L] Horizon Re: [B7L] Horizon [B7L] Horizon... Re: [B7L] Mary Poppins on the Liberator ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:21:56 GMT From: "David Fielding" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Horizon 2.0a Message-ID: <20000328202156.25871.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Here’s some supporting proof to show that Diane desires “Total control” In case anyone has forgotten. -----Original Message----- From: Diane Gies (Horizon) Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 3:58 PM To: kathy@songbird.nascr.net Cc: tuckers@easynet.co.uk; gillian@mpuddle.freeserve.co.uk; jager@clara.net; paula.robinson@rcn.org.uk; rae@clara.net; sue.cowley@bbc.co.uk; JudithSmith@csl-deloitte.co.uk Subject: Horizon policy decision Dear All, At various times I think I've spoken to you all about my feelings on Fan Porn, particularly relating to 'adult pictures' and accessability to the uninitiated and recently I've been more and more unhappy about how easy it is to find fan-porn on the internet, & how easy it is to stumble over adult zines at guest-conventions. B7 was always a PG show and whilst I've no objection to fans wanting to write adult stuff and sell it to other consenting adults in private, I don't think the vast industry in fan-porn is healthy. It is promoted as a mainstream interest and as something new fans should be told about as soon as they are told about 'regular' stuff, which I don't agree with. The idea of our own Ultra 1 was to have adult stories, with non-PG rated sex scenes as part of a proper dramatic story (plus humorous little romps) but some of what's out there is so far removed from anything resembling B7 as we know it that I don't believe it should be so easily accessible. I can't do anything about what other people sell, and I wouldn't want to try, but I don't see why Horizon should help them. Therefore, I would like to implement a new advertising policy which would broadly encompass the following points: Advertising of fanzine Dealers in Orac's Oddments. Up till now we've been advertising, for free, stuff sold by any club member, whilst asking them to reciprocally advertise us. We have no way of knowing whether these people DO advertise us and I've discovered for sure that Judith Proctor certainly doesn't in any of her printed literature though she does on her website. The new policy would be that free for sale ads would only cover 'one off' sales (selling off a collection, or one item) rather than for people who trade as fan or pro dealers. We could then have an advertising fee for any dealers still wanting to advertise up to a maximum of xxxx words (yet to be decided, but enough to give their name, address and extremely brief description of what they sell - eg. B7/ST/DW fanzines or X Files & other Trading Cards, or B7 audio tapes, etc.) We could waive the fee at our discretion if the items were all being sold for charity (requiring proof) or they guaranteed in writing that they were reciprocally advertising us. Further, they would be required to sign something to confirm that they did not produce, or agent for others, any B7 fan fiction containing 'adult' artwork. If they want to sell adult fiction, that's up to them, but the majority of the cast hate the idea of explicit artwork and so do I, as you all know. We would obviously have to advise them what we considered 'explicit', eg. no nudity, and no portraits that would look out of place in a PG rated zine and cause anyone to think "ey-up... bet they're going to be having a **** any minute now". Conventions - I don't believe that guests and adult artwork mix. I don't want Horizon to advertise any convention that has a B7 guest unless they confirm in writing that there will be a ban on dealers selling adult B7 fiction with explicit art content and, further, that any adult fiction without such pictures will not be openly displayed on the sales table but will be hidden away behind and anyone wanting to view it will have to ask for it, rather than having it in a box on the table marked 'adult' - thus creating a knowledge that such things exist in the person passing by. What happens with other fandoms I can't be bothered to worry about, but since the B7 people are our Honorary Members, I want to at least do something in our own 'universe'. If they don't have a B7 guest, fine, let them do what they like. Those of you who were with me at Cult TV 2 weeks ago will know how upset I was to find that Judith Proctor was blatantly selling such stuff, including a quite disgusting zine with graphic sexual artwork, from her table top, whilst sitting selling photos & together again tapes next to Paul at his autograph session (courtesy of Sheelagh Wells arranging this). She was overheard the next day by someone - who doesn't wish her name mentioned - having a conversation that clearly indicated that she was well aware how he would feel if he knew what she was selling (along the lines of "gosh you were so lucky sitting with him all that time..." "yes, lucky he didn't know what I was selling..." ) That wasn't the exact conversation, but that's what was basically happening. I can't stop her selling this stuff, and to all intents and purposes laughing in his face about it, but I don't see why I should make it easy for her. She was also making the point while she was selling the tapes that "Oh, you can't get these from Horizon any more..." which didn't help to endear her to me, but that's another story. Apart from dealers conditions at a con with a B7 guest, there'd also need to be a condition about the art/model displays at the convention (ie. prohibiting any 'adult' art being displayed, even if it was 'hidden'). Websites - from Horizon's links section, you only effectively need to do 3 quick 'clicks' through Proctor's site to get into reading X-rated excerpts from zines on her own site. In several cases there isn't even any warning and depending on which bits of her site you start off reading, you don't necessarily get an explanation of what slash fiction, for example, means so the non-fan who has done a search for Blake's 7 can come into the Official Fan Club Site (us!), go through to Proctor's site and immediately be told that there's loads of fiction featuring explicit sex scenes between main characters. It's one thing for people to go and buy these zines, where they have to make some effort and conscious decision to buy, but if it's just sitting there on the internet, I think this is awful and there seems to be so much of it. Proctor's site links to several others which have the most unbelievably disgusting porn stories, without even any warnings in some cases (though others say "Hey, if you're not over 18, go away now" which is really going to deter the average 13/14 year old playing with dad's computer, isn't it?) Again, I can't stop them doing this, but I can refuse to link Horizon's site to any site that has X-rated material anywhere on it, or that links to a site that does. So I'd be wanting to email all the sites we currently link with issuing them with an agreement to sign or we can just remove them and refuse to mention they exist in any shape or form. Some of you may agree with me 101% (I know some of you do) but others of you may not agree at all, or think I'm taking this 'crusade' too far. I want to know what ALL of you think, please, as soon as possible because I think this is very important, and I don't want to leave things as they are for much longer. Do you think the conditions I wish to implement are reasonable? If not, what - if anything - do you suggest. I'm sending a non-email copy of this to Margaret, Valerie Guy and to Claire Saunders who I've just co-opted onto the committee to do 'Finding Publicity Photos' . I'll leave Edna out of it as she doesn't have any idea this even exists and at 70+ years I don't think she needs to. Obviously Andy and Alan won't be asked!! I'd appreciate you not discussing this with anyone outside the committee until the issue has been resolved. Have a nice day!! xx Diane ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 22:42:51 +0100 From: JMR To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] horizon Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 16:11 28/03/00 , Emily Darby wrote: (snip) >I which case i would question why you feel the need to >mention it and why if you are not a member of the >Horizon committee do you have access to the member >records ? or are these public property and available >on request > >I don't mean this to sound as if i am attacking you i >just cannot understand why you felt the need to say >that we were not members. > >Emily > I was merely pointing out that neither "Horizon", nor "Deliverance" have any record of the individuals "Emily Darby", "David Fielding" or "Mat Shayde", which makes one wonder *why* they are complaining about things that don't affect them. Of course, if they are bona fide members/attendees choosing to hide behind anonymous Hotmail/Yahoo accounts, then one simply wonders why they feel the need to conceal their identities. Surely everyone should be prepared to acknowledge and stand by what they say, write or do? Or perhaps I should have used a Hotmail account to make the observation, rather than posting under my real name and email address? And the question of access is nowhere near as sinister as certain parties are making it out to be. I stated that I wasn't on the "Horizon" committee - I'm not. But I was. Just as I was one of the ConCom for the "Deliverance 98" convention (and the "Who's 7" conventions). As such, I have had perfectly legitimate access. Stating that "x" is not a member is rather different from stating "y" *is* a member and thus publicly exposing their - shock! - guilty secret: that they belong to a fanclub and/or attended a convention. Judith http://home.clara.net/jager ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:11:08 -0500 From: Meredith Dixon To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Oops (re Horizon). Message-ID: <2db2es07vqeqfu7ncea77n2oumn5k6u6no@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now I'm doing it. :> Diva wasn't the person who'd looked up all the Horizon memberships. Diva, I'm sorry for the misattribution. It was a long thread. -- Meredith Dixon Check out *Raven Days*, for victims and survivors of bullying. And for those who want to help. http://www.pobox.com/~dixonm/raven.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:17:17 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Emily=20Darby?= To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon 2.0/*Wild* accusations! Message-ID: <20000328221717.27413.qmail@web4001.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- Diva wrote: > Nice try, but I'm not Diane and I'm not her lover - > ROTFLMAO - I think > you've been reading too much slash mate! That really > is funny though...While > we are on wild guesses, are you and Emily the two > secret identities of Andy > Hopkinson? > For the record i have never met Andy Hopkinson , i only know of him through reading articles about him or by him in various publications and by virtue of the fact that he helped to create the fantastic liberator set that was used at the Deliverance Con. I don't like being accused of this whole thing being a set up because i am assuming that is the implication behind this. As i have stated before i have no personal axe to grind and i was merely trying to get a debate going, i am a huge believer in fandom being a good place to be with people enjoying themselves through a shared interest , in fact Deliverance was one of the best conventions i have been to, with some of the best dispalys and panels i have seen in a long time HOWEVER i still maintain that 2 years for videos in unaccepatable and that was part of my reasons behind starting the debate, i wanted to know what other people think and ultimatley thi should help Horizon better serve the members, if we all tell Horizon what we want it will make for a better fan club although sadly what i am hearing is that that is not what horizon is about anymore Please tell me that Horizon is not as it is portratyed to be, surely the other members of the committee must have something to say in defense of their club???????? Emily ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Jan 1990 00:44:28 -0000 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: "b7" Subject: [B7L] Re:Horizon Message-ID: <000001bf989f$74d1ed00$0f5e063e@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Neil Faulkner >Rather than make lots of posts replying to various comments, I'll try and >slap it all down in one go. Good idea, I'll do the same (hope I don't hit 25 k !). Clearly, I have changed my mind since last night (the posting from which only went out this evening). Emily > i was personnaly very very disappointed with the > latest offering from Horizon this time and i was > interested in hearing what other people thought > i know that there are a lot of Horizon members on list > and i was intereseted in their views. A perfectly reasonable thing to do. I thought it was OK, in the circumstances. Posting that view appears to have contributed to fuelling the current discussion. Supporting Horizon does not seem very fashionable on this list. Neil. >The fact that so many people have publicly voiced their dissatisfaction with >Horizon (David, Mat, Emily, Una, Calle and I readily add myself) suggests >that there is something wrong with the way the club operates. and I would like to know the reasons. But I would also like them to acknowledge that other people may have different views. So whilst it is valuable to let us know why you have left Horizon so remaining members can review thier membership in an informed fashion, please don't try and bring the whole thing down with insubstantiated accusations, personal attacks and general bitching. Judith > ... to know that no-one of that name is, nor has ever been, a member of Horizon. The point is, you didn't like it, you left - fine. But respect the fact that people have different views and some people just might want Horizon to carry on as it is. Unless your a member of the San Fransisco oil painting society, you don't really have a mandate to critise it, this is not government or a national institution, its just a club. BUT, I do value your opinion as to why you all left (or have not joined) provided it is objective. Particularly if you think that damage is being done to B7 fandom. Mat > he has never been a Horizon member and has read someone else's magazines. Emily > Does it matter ? Yes it does. Diva, >there are still lots of B7 fans who aren't online. For those people, Horizon may be their only source of B7 info. Diva >A >discussion about the conduct of the official B7 fanclub clearly falls >within these limits, in my opinion. Provided it is a discussion and not a slanging match. Diva >I'm suggesting that people ought to have the decency to refrain from trivialising someone else's health problems. I agree. Diva, >As I understand it, Andy Hopkinson and Alan Stevens were given >responsibility for some or all of the production of Horizon 40. and so the health problems should not be an issue at all, because deputies were appointed. Neil > I agree with those who >assert that Diane attempts to exert a more or less total control over >Horizon and especially the content of its publications. This is worrying, if it is true. Neil > Garry 'Dreamwatch' Leigh, who ultimately took >Horizon to court and effectively won in an out-of-court settlement Ooch. And Horizon always made such a point of copyright and chasing people who were selling stuff etc. >- not >that Horizon's publications made any mention of these legal wranglings, >though I believe such silence was part of the settlement). So we should not have mentioned it in public really then ! Mat >A lot of the comment has been criticism of the way the Horizon performs and >what it produces. Are you suggesting that it should be immune from >criticism? That it's members should just pay their money and accept any old >tat that the club produces? It should not be immune from critis, but the first port of call should be the club itself, not this list. Some members may just think that the "old tat" is actually quite good value, and are happy to pay for it. Vive la difference. Mat > Dorian - "You mean you're here by choice?" Exactly, people are still in Horizon by choice. Diva, >If you live near enough to a committee member, why not >help with the practical side of things? Mat >assuming that you would be allowed to. I'm afraid that Horizon has become more and more of an insular clique over the last few years. Neil, >Basically, my own experience of Horizon and Diane leads me to believe that >all the accusations of her dictatorialism re Horizon are well founded, that >criticism of the way the club operates is equally well founded and perfectly >legitimate, Is this a recent thing ? Mat suggests it might be. We were warmly welcomed into the fold a few years ago when I had more time, and the only reason I am did not become more involved is that I found myself with less time. I was certsinly asked to join in on certain things to do with running the club. >and that exhortations to start a 'revolution' and wrest control >of Horizon from Diane are just so much wasted hot air Not if you do it sensibly. If Horizon has only two members, and a new club has thousands, what is going to happen ? Calle also said: >I run this list. What have *you* done? Thanks Calle, and all the Web site people out there, and Horizon (IMO). *I* have not *done* anything because I am satisfied with the way things are. Diva >but I do think that when people stoop to nasty remarks about her >health or when they say things like "I've seen behaviour from Horizon that I >really don't like, and as a consequence of that I will never lift a finger >to help them" then that is inappropriate and also that the people reading it >are unlikely to take your point of view too seriously. Exactly, express your dissatisfaction, bring evidence to the discussion, but keep it objective when it involves real people. Save the bias for discussing the episodes and Avon drool. Emily >Andy had done loads of work for Diane/Horizon >and i wondered myself what had caused the break up, >all i can say is that it is very sad day for B7 fandom >when fans lose friendship with one another it only >makes for a poorer fandom in my opinion It certainly is a sad fact. And if Andy or Diane feels able to enlighten us...... Diva >I suggested is that if you have problems with Diane's involvement in Horizon you discuss it with Diane rather than discussing it behind her back and then perhaps give other fans a summary of the discussion. Could we perhaps review the FACTS The Horizon newsletters are very proffessionally produced. Infinitely better than other fan clubs I could mention. Even 39.5 knocks spots of a lot of other clubs offerings, not only in production quality but in content. Yes I said content. Some clubs are even more out of date. 1 year old news ? How about 17 year old news and an editorial ! Diane has had health problems, and arranged for somebody to take over producing the magazine. Indeed a new team put out NL-39, people seemed to like that. I met the guys responsible on a Theatre trip, and everything seemed fine. Same sort of arrangement is put in place for NL-40, maybe a different team, maybe the same, I can't recal. For some reason the key people appear to have left Horizon, so no NL-40. End of Facts. Now we have wild speculation about personality clashes, editorial interference, work commitments or whatever. Unless the people involved speak up, thats all it is, speculation. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:23:52 +0100 (BST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Emily=20Darby?= To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] horizon Message-ID: <20000328222352.21632.qmail@web4003.mail.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit --- JMR wrote: > > I was merely pointing out that neither "Horizon", > nor "Deliverance" have > any record of the individuals "Emily Darby", "David > Fielding" or "Mat > Shayde", which makes one wonder *why* they are > complaining about things > that don't affect them. at the risk of repeating myself, i am using a web based account because i am away from home and cannot access my home account. i am now beginning to wonder if i should reveal my real name..should i be concerned about reprisals ? No surely not , fandom is a fun place to be right ? WRONG, it feels bloody uncomfortable right now but as soon as i get access from my home account and not through a mobile i will continue the debate Emily Darby ____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 11:25:10 +0100 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Guest Stars Message-ID: <000a01bf989f$e6c8bb00$0f5e063e@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Claudia Mastroianni < >"Andrew Ellis" wrote: >: I spotted 1 and 3 (HHGTTG & SW-TESB) but 2 sounds interesting for some >: universes. Unfortunately of course, we have subsequent Canon to go by. In >: Cygnus Alpha, it takes about 10 milliseconds for a teleported individual to >: explode, not fail to materialise cause there is no dirt around to form into >: matter, but fully materialise and explode. So in the B7 universe we are left >: with 3 and 4. > >I've never had the impression that Vargas exploded because that's what >happens to one in a vacuum. Rather, it had to do with the teleport >range. Hence the handy bit of of exposition earlier in the episode: > Well spotted. I forgot that. Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:26:01 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon and That Image Message-ID: <200003281726_MC2-9EFC-63F6@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sally wrote: >And I'll offer no 5 - the obvious one, I guess. Yes, he loved Anna. >He actually loved The Brother, dead or alive, more. Dr Bashir would probably say Avon just liked him a bit more. Or at any rate spent more time playing silly games with him in the holosuite. As Spacefall happened to be the last episode I ever saw, so that my knowledge of it originally depended on Trevor Hoyle's rather wild paraphrase, I originally constructed a theory that Avon really did see Anna, but felt it was too painful to start explaining who she was (and what business of theirs was it anyway?), and therefore decided to refer to a brother instead. This theory was smashed rather comprehensively when I saw the episode and found out that the brother really did appear on screen, but I still think it rather a pity. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:44:01 -0500 From: Meredith Dixon To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon 2.0a Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:21:56 GMT, David Fielding wrote: >Here’s some supporting proof to show that Diane desires “Total control” >In case anyone has forgotten. It was a violation of netiquette to repost that bit of private mail when it was first posted, as I said at the time, and IMO it's still a violation of netiquette. At least this time the listowner didn't do it. -- Meredith Dixon Check out *Raven Days*, for victims and survivors of bullying. And for those who want to help. http://www.pobox.com/~dixonm/raven.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 17:49:57 -0500 From: Meredith Dixon To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon 2.0a Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:21:56 GMT, David Fielding wrote: >>Here’s some supporting proof to show that Diane desires “Total control” >>In case anyone has forgotten. >It was a violation of netiquette to repost that bit of private mail when > it was first posted, as I said at the time, and IMO it's still a violation >of netiquette. At least this time the listowner didn't do it. I think I'd better stop posting for the day; I'm obviously more spaced than I thought. First I got muddled about who'd identified people as non-Horizon members, and now I've just implied more than I had intended to imply. I realized that I hadn't said what I meant right after I hit the "send" button. For anyone who wasn't there, Calle himself did not originate the post of the private mail which David Fielding just reposted. The mail, sent to the list by someone else, failed to make it onto the list for technical reasons, so Calle, as listowner, retrieved it and reposted it. I still think he shouldn't have reposted it, since it had failed to make it to the list, but I didn't mean to make it sound as though he'd sent it to the list in the first place. -- Meredith Dixon Check out *Raven Days*, for victims and survivors of bullying. And for those who want to help. http://www.pobox.com/~dixonm/raven.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:09:39 GMT From: "David Fielding" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Horizon... Message-ID: <20000328230939.47612.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Judith wrote: >I was merely pointing out that neither "Horizon", nor "Deliverance" have >any record of the individuals "Emily Darby", "David Fielding" or "Mat >Shayde", which makes one wonder *why* they are complaining about things >that don't affect them. I can only speak for myself, but as stated in my very first post, I get my newsletter second-hand. I'm not a member, but it does affect me as a Blake's 7 fan. There are hundreds if not thousands out there who are not members but they see the NL because their husband, wife, child or even grandmother are members and don't selfishly hog the NL to themselves. There are very few B7 publications out there. My concern is that the self styled "Official" Blake's 7 Appreciation Society has, through lack of competition has become stale, pompous and corrupt. >Of course, if they are bona fide members/attendees choosing to hide behind >anonymous Hotmail/Yahoo accounts, then one simply wonders why they feel the >need to conceal their identities. Surely everyone should be prepared to >acknowledge and stand by what they say, write or do? Or perhaps I should .have used a Hotmail account to make the observation, rather than posting >under my real name and email address? You mean like "Diva" who is quite evidently Diane Gies. >And the question of access is nowhere near as sinister as certain parties >are making it out to be. I stated that I wasn't on the "Horizon" committee >- I'm not. But I was. Just as I was one of the ConCom for the "Deliverance >98" convention (and the "Who's 7" conventions). As such, I have had >perfectly legitimate access. That really is pathetic. Are you seriously trying to tell us that you have memorised two databases full of thousands of names? (You were in charge of zine/script orders. You were last mention in issue 38 nearly two years ago. Even if you had memorised all those names isn't it just possible that new people have joined since then?) You and Diane have been scouring the databases, why don't you just admit it, instead of hiding behind this preposterous lie. David F. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:37:36 +0100 (BST) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] Horizon Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Hello, I was told that Lightergate and other stuff had reared it's head so I've grabbed the painkillers and returned to Lysator for a while. Here's my tuppence worth on the bits I've read so far. Diva said: > As I understand it, Andy Hopkinson and Alan Stevens were given responsibility > for some or all of the production of Horizon 40. It is for this reason that I > asked for Andy's comments, as I had hoped we could clarify this point. I also > felt that if Horizon are choosing to discuss their side of the story in public > then Andy ought to have an opportunity to do the same. As I said, I am not > interested in a slanging match, but I agree with Calle that Horizon can > reasonably be discussed in this forum - provided that that discussion is about > facts rather than abuse. It seems to me that Diane sensibly chose not to air details of the dispute in public. I would guess that she felt a slanging match would not be good for fandom as a whole. Andy (who has always struck me as a mild, peaceful type) respected her approach and chose not to be vindictive by airing his version of affairs in public. He's on this list and could very easily have posted something critical of Diane and of Horizon in response to her comment in 39.5. I expect he'd happily give his version of events if asked to do so privately (even as Diane did), but do we really want a long drawn out 'he said, she said' dispute here on the Lyst? Remember, when you know someone (as I assume you know Diane) you only hear one side of the story. I've heard the other side, and some of it is not very pretty. One or two parts of it affect me personally, and I still intend to keep quiet if possible, becuase I honestly feel the good of the fandom is more important than my desire to strangle Diane for something she did back in '98 (and undoubtedly assumed I'd never find out about). > > I have yet to hear or see any proof that Diane takes "total control". If > people have anything of substance to say, and can support it with proof then > fair enough. The fact that the Horizon committee are unelected and are appointed/dismissed by Diane probably says it all really. (As a couple of ex-committee members can easily verify) The day Horizon has an elected committee is the day I'll believe Diane doesn't have 'total control'. > > I don't know how Diane feels about being discussed behind her back, but I do > think that when people stoop to nasty remarks about her health or when they > say things like "I've seen behaviour from Horizon that I really don't like, > and as a consequence of that I will never lift a finger to help them" then > that is inappropriate and also that the people reading it are unlikely to take > your point of view too seriously Diane had no compunctions whatsoever about slandering me behind my back, so I have remarkably little sympathy here. (The relevent memo has just been reposted - new Lyst members may wish to see the archives for my response) > > It just sounds like the kind of bitching and rumours that are all too > pervasive in fandom right now. It is for exactly that reason that I chose not > to repeat here the rumours I have heard about Andy - I recognise that they are > merely rumours, and I'd prefer that he posted his own point of view so that we > can discuss something more concrete than gossip. Sensible not to repeat rumours. Not so sensible to invite something that will probably end up as a public mud-slinging match regardless of how pure the original intentions are on both sides. Marian said: > > Personally I was very impressed with H39 (I joined last year) and am looking > forward to H40. All right, it's a bit late, but that means we don't have to > pay that often. :-) H39 was the result of a lot of work by of Andy Hopkinson and Alan Stevens. They were responsible for most of the work on Horizon 38 and 39 which I think are widely recognised as being of a higher standard than the newsletters that came before them. Emily said: > > I would think that he does not want to get involved, the newsletter implies > that there has been a big problem, the comment regarding if you want to see > the correspondance please make an appt with Diane (not quoted complete) > implies to me that there has been a falling out big time and she is not > prepared to say why which i guess it her perogative however i would think that > the majority of members would like to know I've seen the fallout from one fan war and a couple of fairly serious dust-ups. I have no desire to see it happen again. Sometimes, it really is better to leave things alone. Sometimes, when you do know everything, it merely leaves you disillusioned and distressed. Major arguments simply cause people to drop out and move to a less-distressing fandom. Much though I disagree with Diane as a rule, I think she made the right decision here. She's seen the fallout of fan wars too. Andrew Ellis said: > > Actually I did have something to say, but I've just deleted it, 'cause I think > we should concentrate on the positive side of things, especially with these > excellent repeats around, and fascinating "first impressions" to read. Hear hear! Mission to Destiny next Saturday. Agatha Christie has not lived in vain! Judith Rolls: > Of course, if they are bona fide members/attendees choosing to hide behind > anonymous Hotmail/Yahoo accounts, then one simply wonders why they feel the > need to conceal their identities. Surely everyone should be prepared to > acknowledge and stand by what they say, write or do? Including Diva? (I don't think she is Diane - you said she wasn't a long time ago and I accept your word.) Judith Proctor (my real name as everyone knows) -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:05:08 GMT From: "Andrew Michael Spencer" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Horizon Message-ID: <20000329000508.3296.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi, It's all getting a bit serious, Emily Darby asked what we all thought of the latest Horizon newsletter and the response's seem to be getting a little bit scary! Hopefully all this discussion\criticism about Horizon will have some positive result's for Blake's 7 fandom, one way or another. In the final anayalses surely Blake's 7 fandom is primarily about having fun and celebrating one of your favourite programs. It doesn't appear to be much fun to me at the moment……. By the way it is GREAT to have Blake's 7 back on the BBC. Apologies to overseas list member's, (who I assume, for the most part, can't get BBC2), but it has been an absolute thrill to watch Blake's 7 and experience it the way I did when I was ten. Enough of the nostalgia, I'll be remembering the first time I saw Star Wars next then there was the first time I……(never mind!) Andy.M.Spencer (my real name) It's daft to have to state this, but as it seems important to some people. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:34:05 +0100 From: "Diva" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon... Message-ID: <002701bf9916$80a217a0$f793fea9@diva> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >You mean like "Diva" who is quite evidently Diane Gies. As I've said, I'm not Diane - or her lover! Diva@tn.prestel.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 00:47:35 GMT From: "Andrew Michael Spencer" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] B7 information. Message-ID: <20000329004735.75354.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi, Just received an email from a friend of mine who works at the BBC (name dropping I know!) I thought it might be of interest.. .. Saturday's Blake's 7 (first one I've managed to see by the way) received 4 calls of praise to the duty log last weekend- each calling it "excellent". Doesn't sound like many but people don't tend to ring in to praise things unless they feel very strongly about them! (they'll ring in to complain about the slightest little thing though!) The episode he was talking about was Seek-Locate-Destroy, 4 people doesn't sound like very many to me. Let's try and improve that number for next time. I'll try and find out the number of logged calls and post them on the lyst next week. Andy Hopkinson made a posting to the lyst a several weeks ago which told us how to contact the Duty Officer at the BBC. I have reproduced part of that post below. Andy wrote: So, this is to everyone. Don't just sit on your arse and wait for someone else to call, pick up the phone and do it yourself... BBC Information Line 08700 100 222, and ask to speak to the Duty Officer. Hope this helps, Andrew. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 02:05:17 +0100 From: JMR To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 00:37 29/03/00 , Judith Proctor wrote: >Judith Rolls: > >> Of course, if they are bona fide members/attendees choosing to hide behind >> anonymous Hotmail/Yahoo accounts, then one simply wonders why they feel the >> need to conceal their identities. Surely everyone should be prepared to >> acknowledge and stand by what they say, write or do? > >Including Diva? >(I don't think she is Diane - you said she wasn't a long time ago and I accept >your word.) If Diva chooses to preserve her anonymity, then the consensus of the list would seem to indicate that she has as much or as little right to do so as everyone else apparently using alternate names here. I have already said that I believe one should have the courtesy and courage to use one's real name, particularly if making personal attacks. But that, as they say, is just MHO. I, if you remember, entered this debate by merely pointing out that despite the claims made, the names given were not names of "Horizon" members or "Deliverance" attendees. It wasn't until I was attacked for making this (true) observation that I suggested that perhaps people should have the courage to correctly identify themselves rather than continue sniping from the shadows. I'm glad you remember Diva from discussions that took place a couple of years ago on this list, as it saves me from pointing out that she hasn't mysteriously appeared from nowhere - making David Fielding's "welcome" rather superfluous. Diva, as you will doubtless remember from previous posts, is not Diane, but was actually one of several Events Managers at "Deliverance". Knowing her (which I do), she is probably vastly amused at the mistake. Whether Diane would be as amused by the mistake/accusation, I have no idea. Judith http://home.clara.net/jager ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 11:29:09 EST From: "J MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Horizon Message-ID: <20000329012909.50683.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >>At 00:37 29/03/00 My God, don't you lot have beds to go to? Go sleepybyes now, Northern Hemisphereans. Sweet dreams of whoever takes your fancy! Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2000 01:42:29 GMT From: "David Fielding" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Horizon... Message-ID: <20000329014229.1018.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >“Diva” wrote >Nice try, but I'm not Diane and I'm not her lover - ROTFLMAO - I think >you've been reading too much slash mate! That really is funny >though...While >we are on wild guesses, are you and Emily the two secret identities of Andy >Hopkinson? > >Oh, and btw Neil, when I said start the revolution, I wasn't meaning people >should take over Horizon, but that if they had criticisms then they should >turn them into practical action. Before anyone asks, I wasn't advocating >Dana-style bomb-throwing either! Sticking “mate” into your letter Diane doesn’t fool me. You are as transparent as glass and your obsession with slash, passing the buck, and Andy Hopkinson, proves it. The problem with you, Diane, is that you’re always right, even when you’re wrong. And if anyone disagrees with you then they are instantly catapulted into outer darkness. Banned from the club, cast out, patronised, and told that he/she can’t be a Blake’s 7 fan anymore. You’re a disgrace, but you really can’t see anything wrong with your actions, can you? Slandering Judith Proctor, attacking in print two ex-committee members, trying to encourage people to make illegal copies of the “Shakedown” video, scouring the confidential database to put addresses to names, using “editor’s comments” to stamp your mark on every page of Horizon. This just reeks of corruption. I am David Fielding. If I were Andy Hopkinson, then I am sure that I could be giving many more examples of your controlling and callous manner. But what can be done? If Neil Faulkner is right and “Diane Gies is Horizon” then it really is pointless for anyone to write in and complain, because you, Diane, will just rip up their letters and mark them down as troublemakers. I know for a fact that over the years quite a lot of people have written in to say that there should be some democracy involved in the running of the club, but all they’ve received in reply is a deafening silence. It’s not your club anyway Diane, it was Pat Thomas who first set it up and I’m sure that if she came back now, she would be horrified to see what you have done to it. Horizon is no longer a fan club; a club run by fans, it has instead become a Stalinist dictatorship. David F. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2000 20:04:33 -0600 (CST) From: Susan.Moore@uni.edu To: BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Mary Poppins on the Liberator Message-id: <01JNKU99YO6A8YSGOW@uni.edu> Mistral wrote: I'd conjecture Dayna taught herself (or was taught) in late childhood or early teens, before she was allowed to spend much time outside, then set it aside when she got more options. Then during a quiet spell on Liberator, she could have picked it up again out of a sense of nostalgia or homesickness (which would square with the lyrics of the song.) I can see this. A lot of parents try to get their children to learn an instrument , which the child may or may not resent. Picking up the instrument on the Liberator could have been her way of remembering her father. Maybe. Susan M. -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #88 *************************************