From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se
Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #302
X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
X-Mailing-List: <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se> archive/volume00/302
Precedence: list
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------"
To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se
Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
------------------------------
Content-Type: text/plain
blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 302
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (now extrem [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? [ Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@comp ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones. ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Offshoot of Dysfunctional/ [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ Mac4781@aol.com ]
Re: [B7L] Deja Vu [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: [B7L] Offshoot of Dysfunctional/ [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 2 and [ Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones. ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
[B7L] an apology [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
[B7L] Avon and Blake etc [ Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape. ]
[B7L] ~Rumours of death - how not to [ Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape. ]
Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana. ]
Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana. ]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:16:36 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (getting even longer)
Message-ID: <20001027.083054.-89969.0.rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Just got to jump in with some of my opinions.
On Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:19:57 EDT Mac4781@aol.com writes:
> Betty wrote:
if it came down to a choice between Avon and
> the
> > Cause, Blake would do everything he possibly could find a third
> > option. And, being Blake, he'd probably succeed...
>
> He didn't save Nova, Arco and Gan.
And didn't not saving Gan knock him for a loop (when he's 'restoring
their legend' I think he's partly restoring it in his mind as well). The
thing about Blake is, when faced with two choices that he cannot except,
he either creates a third or stands around dithering looking for a third.
> What you're telling me about Blake--he's not corrupt, he can work
> miracles
> that will probably save Avon if it comes down to the Cause or
> Avon--makes me
> wonder if I'm not approaching this from the wrong angle. Maybe you
> are able
> to see an Avon who can't help but be attracted to Blake because you
> see Blake
> as a superior being. You have Avon seeing Blake through your eyes.
>
> > Anyway, in
> > "Blake," it looks like he's sold out not just Avon, but Avon
> *and* the
> > Cause, which is even more shocking.
>
> I agree with that. And I think Avon was aware of that possibility
> before he
> went to GP. He accepted before he got there that Blake had possibly
> sold out
> the Cause. I think that's why he's so quick to believe ;he'd
> already
> considered the possibility and accepted it could be true.
>
> > Oh, gawd no! "Simple" and "gentle" are the *last* two words I
> would
> > ever use to describe either of them! They're fantastically
> complex
> > people; in fact, Avon is IMO perhaps the *most* complex and
> layered
> > character I've seen in media SF. I think Avon's emotions towards
> > Blake are *very* complicated and conflicted, and not at all
> gentle.
> > (The phrase "love-hate relationship" doens't *quite* capture it,
> I
> > think, but at least conveys some of the flavor.) I certainly
> don't
> > think Avon "worships" Blake. Blecch.
>
> But your paragraph above seems in direct conflict (to me) with your
> other
> statements. You say Avon recognizes Blake's fallibility then you
> tell me he
> doesn't see Blake as corrupt, etc., when he's had the evidence of
> his own
> eyes and experience to know that.
First off, fallible and corrupt are two very different things. Henry VI
(as done by Shakespeare) wasn't corrupt but he was incredibly fallible.
Avon sees Blake as incorrupt in a certain context. Blake has a set of
ideals he _won't_ sell out. These are also ideals that Avon normally
associates with gullible and/or naive idiots or corrupt people who
_claim_ to believe in these ideals but who really only say that to make
it easier to manipulate the naive and/or gullible. Within that context,
Blake is not corrupt and (in my opinion of Avon's opinion) not
corruptable.
You make it sound easy to find a neutral
> planet
> to hide on, but Avon never wanted to merely hide. He wants to be in
> control
> of his life. He's willing to take his time to find a situation that
> will
> provide autonomy, safety and challenging projects before jumping
> ship.
JMHO, but I think he could have found safer places to look and wait. I
also think he had more than enough skills to find a place to do that
waiting in considerable comfort, if only by pocketing a few jewels on his
way off the ship.
> > IMO there is no
> > rational reason why he should choose to stay and fight Blake's
> battles
> > for him.
Got to agree here. Cally questioned why the Chengans were helping
wounded in a war that didn't involve them - and the Chengans didn't have
a cover story about survival.
>
> What did he do for Blake that he wouldn't have done for any of the
> others?
Go to Terminal.
Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 09:40:37 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (now extremely short)
Message-ID: <39F9A1F4.E8B83389@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sally Manton wrote:
> Betty wrote:
>
> <Here I am, jumping in between Carol and Sally yet again, but, hey, my Avon
> and Sally's Avon are practically identical... :)>
>
> But not quite, dear ... mine survives, remember?
[LOL!] True. Very true.
Btw, please consider this one big "Me too!" tacked on to your last few
posts... :)
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:01:30 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (getting even longer)
Message-ID: <39F9B4EA.931C08B3@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Carol wrote:
> Avon has to love someone as deeply as he loved Anna to repeat
> the mistake. And he doesn't have those feelings for Blake.
Well, this is our fundamental point of disagreement, right here. (As if
that weren't obvious by now...)
> This is something else I can't see at all. Blake *is* corrupt and
> self-serving in pursuing his goals. He is willing to deal with the Terra
> Nostra. He needs to prove he's right. He's willing to use methods that are
> worthy of the Federation to achieve his goals. He's willing to wade in
> blood. These are all things Avon knows. He can't possibly overlook all that
> unless he's lost 70 or so points off his IQ or unless he's viewing Blake
> through rose-colored glasses.
Well, first of all, I don't think Avon has a particular problem with
things like dealing with the Terra Nostra, or being willing to use
violence in pursuit of one's ends. I don't think Avon views either of
those things with particular distaste, so there's no reason to mind them
in Blake.
The question is, what *positive* thing is it about Blake that draws Avon
to him? Like I said, that's an extremely complicated question, and I
don't think there's one simple answer, more a combination of things.
But I think a very large portion of it is this: According to Avon's
belief and experience, there are two types of people in the world.
Intelligent, pragmantic people like himself, who understand that there
ain't no justice in this universe and it's all about looking out for
number one. And naive, sentimental, sheep-type people who don't
understand or won't recognize reality, and only get themselves killed or
exploited by the first type. Then there's Blake: intelligent,
pragmatic, open-eyed, totally unwilling to be exploited... And yet
idealistic, a believer in justice, someone who cares about people other
than himself (even about the sheep-types). I think Avon is *interested*
in that, because it's so outside his experience, and I think he's
*attracted* to it because... Well, because there *is* something rather
attractive about the thought that a man like Blake exists in a universe
like this.
Anyway, I think Avon sees both Blake's strengths and his weaknesses.
The strengths attract him, and the weaknesses bring out his protective
streak. :)
> Yes. After getting them into messy situations, Blake will do his best to get
> them out. Avon has seen that. I'm sure he wouldn't dispute that Blake takes
> his responsibilities seriously.
Which I think means a great deal to Avon, although, yes, this doesn't
set Blake apart signficantly from the others all by itself.
> There is a reasonable amount of trust there,
> but no more trust than Avon gives to his own crew. Maybe less.
There's another side of the equation, though, which I think is extremely
significant. That is the fact that Blake is willing to trust *Avon*.
Practically "right from the very beginning." IMO Avon responds strongly
to that.
> Because Avon
> doesn't know that Blake will do the same for Avon the man that he'd do for
> Avon the revolutionary worker. And Avon never tests those waters to find
> out. Possibly because he doesn't trust that Blake has that strong of a
> commitment to him.
Or maybe he thinks he already knows the answer...
> Anyone who has been apart from
> Avon would be subject to the same degree of wariness. They might have
> changed. They might have been corrupted. They might have been mentally
> adjusted. It's why I don't see Avon approaching Gauda Prime with supreme
> trust.
I wasn't suggesting that he was. I don't think Avon is *capable* of
absolute trust. I *do* think that Blake is the last person he would
have expected to sell him out.
> He didn't save Nova, Arco and Gan. And many a time, it wasn't Blake but one
> of the others who pulled their necks out of the noose. Blake was also
> willing to accept the deaths of many innocents at STAR ONE. Blake isn't a
> miracle worker. He can't fight a rebellion without loss of life.
True, Blake isn't a miracle worker (although he *is* very good at making
things go his own way). Let me try and clarify this a bit... I *do*
think that Avon believes that staying with Blake and fighting against
the Federation is going to get him killed, sooner or later. I *also*
think he knows that if Blake gets him into a deadly situation, Blake
will do his damnedest to get him out. I can't see Blake abandoning Avon
(or anyone) to the hands of the Federation, for instance, or selling him
out for advantage. Blake may have many faults, but he does *not*
abandon people or betray them.
> What you're telling me about Blake--he's not corrupt, he can work miracles
> that will probably save Avon if it comes down to the Cause or Avon--makes me
> wonder if I'm not approaching this from the wrong angle. Maybe you are able
> to see an Avon who can't help but be attracted to Blake because you see Blake
> as a superior being. You have Avon seeing Blake through your eyes.
Hmm... Yes and no. I don't think Blake is any sort of a god. And I
get the impression from some of your previous comments that this is
where a large part of the misunderstanding lies. You seem to think I'm
saying "Avon thinks Blake is the bee's knees, he worships at Blake's
feet, he'll do anything for Blake because Blake is so Good and True."
Which I am definitely *not* saying! You can love people without
"worshiping" them or putting them up on a pedastal or thinking
everything they do is right... even without getting along with them all
the time. I *do* think there are a lot of good qualities in Blake -- I
*do* think he's a special and unique person, whatever his faults -- and,
yes, I do imagine Avon seeing those same qualities (although I don't
imagine he sees them all in quite the same way that I do). And, yes, I
think Avon trusts Blake as much as he ever trusts anybody, and, yes, I
think it's justified.
> > Oh, gawd no! "Simple" and "gentle" are the *last* two words I would
> > ever use to describe either of them! They're fantastically complex
> > people; in fact, Avon is IMO perhaps the *most* complex and layered
> > character I've seen in media SF. I think Avon's emotions towards
> > Blake are *very* complicated and conflicted, and not at all gentle.
> > (The phrase "love-hate relationship" doens't *quite* capture it, I
> > think, but at least conveys some of the flavor.) I certainly don't
> > think Avon "worships" Blake. Blecch.
>
> But your paragraph above seems in direct conflict (to me) with your other
> statements. You say Avon recognizes Blake's fallibility then you tell me he
> doesn't see Blake as corrupt, etc., when he's had the evidence of his own
> eyes and experience to know that.
Different definitions of "corrupt," I think... I don't think he *is*
corrupt, by Avon's definition.
Actually, this is another place where *your* Blake seems far too simple
to me. You seem to be saying that either he's admirable or he's
corrupt, period, no middle ground. *My* Blake is a complex person full
of conflicting traits, both good and bad (and many of which can not
easily be classified as "good" *or* "bad").
> So it does seem as if Avon can only view
> Blake as this very admirable, unique individual if he's viewing Blake through
> rose-colored glasses.
You don't think there's *anything* admirable and unique about Blake at
all? And I didn't say that Avon could *only* view Blake as admirable.
Blake has a lot of other traits, and Avon's not blind to them, either.
(He's stubborn, he's autocratic, he's ridiculously optimistic about his
chances of success, to name just three "negative" traits of which Avon
is all too aware.) There's also the fact that I think Avon has very
mixed feelings about these "admirable" traits of Blake's. I think some
of them -- Blake's idealism, for example -- both attract and repel him
at the same time.
> > Oddly enough, the impression that I've gotten of *your* Avon seems far
> > too simple and gentle to me.
>
> I'd be happy to explain anything that gave you that impression. I find Avon's
> psyche to be intriguing.
Well, here's the basic impression I've gotten of "your" Avon... You can
tell me where I've gotten it wrong: Avon cares about everyone he shares
a ship with equally, forming no special attatchments. He is equally
willing to risk his life for any of them because he feels a sense of
team responsibility. He is able to shrug off deep emotional shocks
("Rumours") with ease. He is relentlessly logical and has good,
entirely rational reasons for every single thing he does.
Now this characterization, to me, feels very... shallow. And definitely
much simpler and gentler than my Avon...
(Actually, except for that last bit about rationality, the above sounds
a *lot* like my perception of Tarrant...)
> For now, I'll just talk a little about the Avon-Blake relationship as I see
> it, because I had a moment of insight last night. I was thinking about what
> you said about Paul's blank expression and it occurred to me that is exactly
> what I see at STAR ONE. Avon cares about Blake. He wishes Blake all the
> best, happy revolution, win, enjoy it all. Those are his positive feelings.
> At the same time Avon cannot bear to be around Blake any longer. He needs to
> be free. And those are his negative feelings. They balance into a
> neutrality that leaves that blank look on his face.
I can understand that. I don't agree with it, but I understand it. :)
My interpretation of "Star One" is more a "can't live with him, can't
live without him" kind of thing.
> His
> feelings for Blake are very complex; that's part of the reason he isn't
> desperate to leave Liberator any sooner.
Could you expand a little on what you think those feelings are?
> > Yes, we have been through it before... And I'm quite sure we're not
> > going to agree about it now! I see a difference between the risks he
> > takes for Blake and the risks he takes for the others: the former seem
> > (often) to be more extreme, less rational, and more emotional. You
> > don't see that. Once again, it's a difference of intepretation...
>
> And there's no point in rehashing that.
Agreed.
> > But "safety and protection" are the *last* things the Liberator
> > affords him! Running around blowing up Federation installations every
> > week when he could find himself some neutral planet to hide on?
> > Doesn't sound like the safe & sane choice to *me*.
>
> Granted, it is a relative safety. But as long as he has that relative
> safety, he'll do his share. You make it sound easy to find a neutral planet
> to hide on, but Avon never wanted to merely hide. He wants to be in control
> of his life.
Like he is on the Liberator!?
> He's willing to take his time to find a situation that will
> provide autonomy, safety and challenging projects before jumping ship. He's
> willing to take the risks of staying on Liberator until he finds that
> desirable location.
Except that the odds that he will survive until he finds an ideal
bolthole are not good. I'm sorry, but this just does seem *dumb* to
me. It's like he's saying "I haven't found the ideal place where I'll
be *perfectly* safe and happy yet, so until I do, I'll stay here on this
place where I'm incredibly unsafe and unhappy."
> We see that he's making an effort to free himself from Blake; we see that
> he's not happy with Blake.
Agreed that he's not happy, and that he's at least seriously considering
leaving. In my interpretation this is because he really *doesn't* want
any stupid emotional ties to a man who will get him killed, and
recognizes that getting out would be the smartest thing to do. But then
he fails to do the smartest thing for emotional reasons. My Avon isn't
perfect, either. :)
> Because Avon
> wants a bolthole that is as desirable as Liberator. He gains that bolthole
> through negotiations at STAR ONE. He's managed a win-win: his freedom and
> the best bolthole the galaxy can offer.
Heh. Interestingly enough, I see "Star One" as a major lose-lose
situation for Avon. He's lost Blake, but he's *still* not free of
Blake's rebel lifestyle, which is what he *really* wanted to be rid of.
> > But I *still* see a difference between
> > the lengths he's prepared to go to for the rest of them and the
> > lengths he's prepared to go to for Blake.
>
> What did he do for Blake that he wouldn't have done for any of the others?
Well, this is where I say "Terminal," and you say "Oh, he would have
done that for any of them," and I say "No he wouldn't" and we're back to
"yes, he is"/"no, he isn't" again. :)
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:17:00 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?)
Message-ID: <39F9B88C.FB5FFD66@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Carol wrote:
> > Which, IMO, was an incredibly risky and irrational thing to do.
>
> Per Avon's behavior, he expected to find a visible Federation presence at
> Exbar. He knew the Liberator had the capability of getting away from
> Federation ships.
But he clearly wasn't thinking this through up to his usual standards.
Consider: if Avon doesn't contact the Federation, he and the Liberator
are in no danger at all. The only one in any danger is Blake, and Blake
*chose* to take that risk upon himself. If Avon *does* contact the
Federation, there are going to be pursuit ships showing up, which, yes,
they can probably outrun, but IMO it's generally not a good idea to go
calling your enemies and telling them your location so they can show up
with guns blazing. The risk to Liberator goes up from effectively zero
to "small but real." Add to *that* the fact that the Federation could
easily have shown up while Blake was on the planet (as, indeed, they
did), and the potential risk increases significantly. (Yes, I know Avon
is capable of making mistakes, but this seems like an extremely obvious
thing to think of for anyone who is thinking clearly and rationally
about the matter.)
> I think it shows how desperate Avon was to have more say
> in the decision making.
This doesn't make much sense to me at all. You think Avon wanted to
mess up Blake's plans just for the satisfaction of getting to make a
decision himself? That seems particularly pointless and petty. Or do
you think he was trying to make some sort of a point? If so, remember
that, if his plan had succeeded, nobody would have *known* he'd called
the Federation.
To my mind, the only thing that can explain this course of action is
that he was desperate for Blake not to get himself killed on Exbar.
> > He has a truly touching amount of faith in Orac, and was counting on
> > the plastic box to be able to teleport them out if they really needed
> > it. I don't think he really thought he was putting Blake and co. at
> > any greatly increased risk, actually.
>
> He doesn't indicate that Orac would teleport them out, he blithely says Blake
> will be longer than they are when Vila asks him what happens if Blake wants
> fetched. I argree that he doesn't think he's putting Blake and Co at great
> risk, but that's mainly because he's more interested in a chance to have fun.
> He doesn't give the situation much consideration. Avon badly needs a break
> by GAMBIT, and that's what he's thinking about.
I went back and looked over the transcript, and you're right. The only
explicit reference to Orac operating the teleport is for Avon and Vila.
I don't think it's an unreasonable assumption, though, that if Blake had
called while they were at the casino that Orac could have brought them
up. It *is* explicitly stated that Orac can operate the teleport from
the planet.
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:25:45 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional?
Message-ID: <200010271325_MC2-B8AF-7E83@compuserve.com>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
I'm two or three digests behind, so sorry if these have been covered...
Betty wrote:
>Paradoxically, I think Avon *does* trust Blake, and
> I think that's the reason why he's so quick to see and =
>respond to signs of betrayal on Blake's part. He knows
> he is vulnerable to Blake.
Ah, so he shoots Blake because he's trying to learn from his mistakes on
Terminal, where Servalan demonstrated rather conclusively that Blake was
his Achilles heel.
I must not let my sentiment show, I must not let my sentiment show... Ban=
g!
Sally wrote:
>of course, at this minute, I'm of the uncanonical opinion
> that he's also realised they were wrong ...
Er, who were wrong, and about what?
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 22:40:14 +0100
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?)
Message-ID: <IJalreA+SK+5EwNB@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <LAW-F189AbAWFswl3tT000006d1@hotmail.com>, Sally Manton
<smanton@hotmail.com> writes
>I agree, this is not a certainty (and a gaping plot hole, moreover) as it
>appears that very little firm information about Blake's and/or Avon's crew ever
>got to the Minor Powers-That-Be. But this *is* the Security section and Avon
>has been a prisoner before - what if they're weren't too stupid to double-check
>his finger-prints or retina scan or the futuristic equivalent???
My excuse for ignoring this plothole is that much of the relevant
security records went up in smoke along with Star One. That, or as soon
as Avon got his mitts on Orac, he went on a Seek-Locate-Destroy mission
of his own.
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:27:05 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <39F9BAE9.22ACDEF2@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Carol wrote:
> I'm not sure why we're reading this. :) We are getting down to the ragged
> edges that leave little room for discussion. I am going to try to restrain
> from further comment.
Yes, we are. :) I've already made numerous additional comments (mainly
because I never do know when to quit), but it simply may not be very
profitable to pursue the issue much longer. I have found this
interesting, though, and I *am* still interested in understanding *your*
version of Avon, because I don't think I do, very well. And it always
interests me how two people can look at the same thing at draw such
different conclusions from it. (But if you're tired of this, I *more*
than understand, so don't feel the need to respond if you don't want
to.)
> > "A veritable saint?" [Snort] No, I certainly don't think he was
> > *that*. He was frequently nastier to Blake than to anyone else. He
> > made Blake's life even more difficult than Blake himself did. He
> > *killed* Blake, fer cryin' out loud!
>
> Exactly. That's not the behavior of a man who has a strong, positive,
> personal commitment to Blake. It's what I've been saying all along. Avon
> does not treat Blake the way he'd treat someone he regarded as highly as he
> did Anna.
Er, he killed Anna, too. And you've never met my family... My mother
and sister love each other dearly, but they're *far* nastier to each
other than they ever get to people they care less about.
> > There's really two questions here, I think. "Why would a man who is so
> > indifferent to most of his fellow human beings feel so drastically
> > different when it comes to one particular human being?" and "Why
> > Blake?" I'm not entirely sure which one you're asking, and they're both
> > pretty complicated questions...
>
> Both. But you don't need to answer them (or any other questions I've asked
> in other posts I wrote this morning).
Well, I think I already did answer some of it, anyway...
> What you've said has already told me
> there isn't any hard evidence, just theories and personal opinions. I just
> wanted to be sure that I wasn't overlooking something that was important.
Agreed, we're well into theory and interpretation and opinion here. (I
still think it's interesting to compare one interpretation to another,
but since there's no solid evidence for one interpretation vs another,
that's all you really *can* do.) Again, canon only takes you so far,
and then you *have* to start theorizing and speculating, if you want to
view things as a coherent whole. You're doing this, I'm doing it, we're
all doing it...
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:43:16 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Offshoot of Dysfunctional/loner thread
Message-ID: <39F9BEB4.CC17A9BE@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Susan Beth wrote:
> Continuing to read the thread, I'm also struck by how consistently Carol
> argues for a more, well, moderate interpretation of Blake's and Avon's
> characters vs. Sally and Betty preferring more, uh, 'extreme' carries
> meanings I don't want, maybe 'polarized' would do? As in their Blake is
> more white and their Avon more black while Carol's are more clearly gray in
> both cases.
Oh, dear. I seem to have given that impression to more than one person,
and I'm not quite sure how to correct it... I *do* see them both in a
very shades-of-grey manner. Lots and lots of varying, conflicting,
jumbled-up shades of grey...
> Dramatically, clashes between Black vs. white, personified Evil vs. Good,
> are more spectacular, fraught with tension, *fun* than just two
> mostly-normal people who disagree but manage to mostly work together.
Actually, I find simple Good-vs.-Evil characterizations are often rather
boring. But two not-mostly-normal people who disagree but manage to
mostly work together are more interesting than two mostly-normal people
doing the same thing. :)
> Having some special soul-deep link between Avon and Blake is clearly more
> "interesting" than not having it.
This is true. Intense character interactions are much more interesting
to me than casual, shallow ones. One reason that I disagree with
Carol's interpretation, I think, is that it seems to flatten out the
complexities I (empahsis on "I," of course) see on the screen...
> Having Avon be a dark, twisty, complex, dysfunctional person is way more
> dramatic than having him be a introvert with a nasty tongue, who talks a
> much more misanthropic line than he acts.
Actually, I think Avon is a dark, twisty, complex, dysfunctional
introvert with a nasty tongue who talks a somewhat more misanthropic
line than he acts. And, yes, I *like* him that way. :)
> Are all the differences in interpretation predictable offshoots from one
> basic difference in taste? As in, maybe Sally and Betty like a full-out
> operatic flavor while Carol likes a more "realistic" version? Space Opera
> vs. Science Fiction?
Quite possibly. Personally, I have extremely broad tastes in fiction,
but stories about "twisty, dark, complex, dysfunctional" people and
their intereactions with other twisty, etc. people hold a very special
sort of appeal for me.
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year."
-- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 14:33:50 EDT
From: Mac4781@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <82.209dd6c.272b248e@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Betty wrote:
> And it always
> interests me how two people can look at the same thing at draw such
> different conclusions from it. (But if you're tired of this, I *more*
> than understand, so don't feel the need to respond if you don't want
> to.)
We'll get back to it another time. I have made myself a promise to tackle
other projects.
Besides which, Susan Beth has already hit the nail on the head. I should
hire her to write my speeches and spare me three days of rambling at the
mouth.
I think it is a matter of tastes. The vision of B7 that most interests me is
an ensemble of ordinary, shades of gray people caught up in extraordinary
situations. Not two extraordinary people--a Blake who stands out as someone
unlike anyone else, and a dysfunctional Avon who is drawn to Blake against
his will--whose intertwined lives will be the focus around which everything
else revolves.
Carol Mc
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 19:58:44 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Deja Vu
Message-ID: <LAW-F220YBeHCErAWhJ000010cb@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Steve wrote:
<Maybe Forress could be a candidate to join the crew.>
and Iain:
<A bit too dead, though, which is a disadvantage.>
That never stopped any of us before ...
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:03:32 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <LAW-F241sprw0m25q8a0000108c@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Mistral wrote:
<Lessee.... Rumors: In an enemy stronghold, with a gun pointed at him, Avon
kills Anna, who has betrayed him. Blake: In an [assumed] enemy stronghold,
with a gun pointed at him, Avon kills Blake, who [Avon thinks] has betrayed
him. I see what you mean. He doesn't treat them alike at all.>
As I did point out ... we don't *know* how he treated Anna when they were
together (two rose-tinted memories do not a history make, especially since
we can point to similar gentler moments with other people he definitely
isn;t in love with).
We know he loved her (sorry, he doesn't say so, I assume he loves her :-))
from his actions *after the fact*.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:47:02 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blake7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Offshoot of Dysfunctional/loner thread
Message-ID: <LAW-F11czBEEs5VFFy800002642@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Susan Beth writes:
<Continuing to read the thread, I'm also struck by how consistently Carol
argues for a more, well, moderate interpretation of Blake's and Avon's
characters vs. Sally and Betty preferring more, uh, 'extreme' carries
meanings I don't want, maybe 'polarized' would do? As in their Blake is
more white and their Avon more black while Carol's are more clearly gray in
both cases.>
Sarah Beth, I would love to know where you got the 'Blake is white' bits
from my rather LOUDLY VOICED opinions that he's arrogant, ruthless,
autocratic, cold-blooded, wilful-to-the-point-of-obstinate and a right
bastard when he wants to be ...
I agree I like Blake more than Carol, who (IMHO) sees him as far blacker
than I see Avon or anyone else (if not, Carol, I apologise, but that's the
way it reads from here) and I don't find the softer, kinder, 'friendlier'
Avon *at all* realistic or attractive (in fact, something of a creep). If
that's the 'real' Avon, maybe I should stop watching the show (yes, if I
sound a bit annoyed, I apologise but I am. I've tried rather hard *not* to
call someone else's version of the show 'unrealistic' because I don't agree
with it.)
Yes, I also like drama - which is why I like the fights <g> Some of the
happiest (and more long-lived) couples I know punctuated their happiness
with quite explosive sessions involving flying saucepans etc so I really
don't have any problem believing that two people who fight creatively and
quite viciously can still care very deeply. (I have problems where someone
who appears screamingly *indifferent* is supposed to care deeply and
fervently.) Yes, that's not canon, that's looking at canon from the
viewpoint of my own beliefs and experiences. That's what you do, and Carol,
and Neil and Betty, and Mistral and me ... let anyone on the list claim that
they don't do exactly the same.
I totally agree with you on the bit about drama. But IMHO it's inherent in
this series - after all, this *is* drama, and not the kitchen sink variety
but a full-blooded one. These characters were *written* as dramatic people
- David Maloney makes it clear in one of the Blake's Back tapes that they
wanted Blake as a heroic figure (that Gareth Thomas then pushed his nastier
bits and turned him into the heroic bastard is just my good luck). IMHO the
evidence for Avon's intensity of character is *there*, written into the
series.
And it's set in an extremely dramatic context of five/six people fighting a
hopeless battle against half the universe.
Yes, I see them as extraordinary people - larger than what *we* would call
life people in a larger than we would call life situation. Trying to turn
them back into smaller-than-life, kitchen-sink type characters and the
free-for-all on the Liberator into an average office situation in the name
of 'realism' IMHO makes them *less* realistic.
JMHO.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 21:03:25 +0100
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (part 2 and most about the word 'canon' actually)
Message-ID: <huGfiJAN+d+5Ew6V@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <LAW-F150r4YFM8De4wk00000a46@hotmail.com>, Sally Manton
<smanton@hotmail.com> writes
>(And before the non-character junkie people smile smugly, let's remember that a
>lot of the more involved science/political etc threads are based on
>interpretation rather than what's on-screen as well :-))
I thought the last one of those was *entirely* about personal
interpretation (says one of the guilty parties, shuffling in the
direction of the exit).
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 20:51:11 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional?
Message-ID: <LAW-F618evcMQWWNJzt000023d4@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Harriet wrote:
<Er, who were wrong, and about what?>
Avon realises they (he and Tarrant) were wrong about Blake selling them out,
of course. As I said, no proof, but it helps to explain the protective
stance over Blake's body.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 21:11:12 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] an apology
Message-ID: <LAW-F203xpTljBOh8s4000011eb@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Susan Beth, I'm sorry for getting your name wrong in the previous post.
And to everyone - now the migraine tablet is kicking in - I apologise for
not editing out the irritation.
Sally
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at
http://profiles.msn.com.
------------------------------
Date: 27 Oct 00 14:11:13 PDT
From: Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon and Blake etc
Message-ID: <20001027211113.28112.qmail@ww181.netaddress.usa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Compare the two statements by Blake in Star One ' '(to Avon) I have alway=
s
trusted you, from the very beginning', and in 'Blake' (to Deva) 'I find i=
t
difficult to trust.' This is, perhaps crucial - Avon has every reason to
believe Blake trusts him: and that is why he reacts so: he sees himself a=
s
betrayed by perhaps the one man who had ever said he had trusted Avon =
' And both Avon and Deva ask him 'Do I have a choice': 'Yes.'
To what extent does Avon stay because he is free to go?
"Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com> wrote:
Mistral wrote:
<Lessee.... Rumors: In an enemy stronghold, with a gun pointed at him, Av=
on =
kills Anna, who has betrayed him. Blake: In an [assumed] enemy stronghold=
, =
with a gun pointed at him, Avon kills Blake, who [Avon thinks] has betray=
ed =
him. I see what you mean. He doesn't treat them alike at all.>
As I did point out ... we don't *know* how he treated Anna when they were=
=
together (two rose-tinted memories do not a history make, especially sinc=
e =
we can point to similar gentler moments with other people he definitely =
isn;t in love with).
We know he loved her (sorry, he doesn't say so, I assume he loves her :-)=
) =
from his actions *after the fact*.
____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home=
=2Enetscape.com/webmail
------------------------------
Date: 27 Oct 00 14:27:09 PDT
From: Jacqui Speel <jacquispeel@netscape.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] ~Rumours of death - how not to be spotted
Message-ID: <20001027212709.8563.qmail@www0y.netaddress.usa.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Somebody mentioned this problem earlier a few days ago and I think I have=
a
solution - they used the 'artificial brain' from Harvest of Kairos that
produced the distorting mirror image - so the spaceport control and every=
body
else never 'saw' the Liberator as such.
Any comments?
____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home=
=2Enetscape.com/webmail
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 08:12:27 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?)
Message-ID: <20001028081227.A9141@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Thu, Oct 26, 2000 at 10:40:14PM +0100, Julia Jones wrote:
> In message <LAW-F189AbAWFswl3tT000006d1@hotmail.com>, Sally Manton
> <smanton@hotmail.com> writes
> >I agree, this is not a certainty (and a gaping plot hole, moreover)
> >as it appears that very little firm information about Blake's
> >and/or Avon's crew ever got to the Minor Powers-That-Be. But this
> >*is* the Security section and Avon has been a prisoner before -
> >what if they're weren't too stupid to double-check his
> >finger-prints or retina scan or the futuristic equivalent???
>
> My excuse for ignoring this plothole is that much of the relevant
> security records went up in smoke along with Star One. That, or as soon
> as Avon got his mitts on Orac, he went on a Seek-Locate-Destroy mission
> of his own.
After all, if macho-man Jarvik can tamper with his computer records
(or get someone to do so) then Avon certainly could!
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@foobox.net>
/ \ | <http://www.foobox.net/~kat>
\_.--.*/ | <http://angelcities.com/members/rubykat>
v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 08:40:16 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...)
Message-ID: <20001028084016.B9141@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 06:52:06AM -0700, Mistral wrote:
> Betty and Carol:
>
> > > "A veritable saint?" [Snort] No, I certainly don't think he was
> > > *that*. He was frequently nastier to Blake than to anyone else. He
> > > made Blake's life even more difficult than Blake himself did. He
> > > *killed* Blake, fer cryin' out loud!
> >
> > Exactly. That's not the behavior of a man who has a strong, positive,
> > personal commitment to Blake. It's what I've been saying all along. Avon
> > does not treat Blake the way he'd treat someone he regarded as highly as he
> > did Anna.
>
> Lessee.... Rumors: In an enemy stronghold, with a gun pointed at him,
> Avon kills Anna, who has betrayed him. Blake: In an [assumed] enemy
> stronghold, with a gun pointed at him, Avon kills Blake, who [Avon
> thinks] has betrayed him. I see what you mean. He doesn't treat them
> alike at all.
He shot Anna in *self-defence*, not because she betrayed him. The only
reason that people re-interpret that scene as Shooting Because Of
Betrayal is because it's a very handy way to make sense of what
happened in "Blake". "Look!" people say, "He shot Blake because he
betrayed him! He must have shot Anna for the same reason."
Despite the fact that Anna pulled a gun on him and Blake didn't.
Kathryn Andersen
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Soolin: It's a bad place to be. No self-respecting idealist
would be found dead there.
Avon: I imagine that is what HE is trying to avoid: being found dead
anywhere. (Blake's 7: Blake [D13])
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@foobox.net>
/ \ | <http://www.foobox.net/~kat>
\_.--.*/ | <http://angelcities.com/members/rubykat>
v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #302
**************************************