From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #297 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/297 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 297 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Re:Avon as loner [ Julia Jones ] Re: [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for [ "Ellynne G." ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ Mac4781@aol.com ] [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re [ Betty Ragan ] [B7L] Re: wardrobe choice in Deathwa [ Helen Krummenacker ] [B7L] Re: Avon as loner [ Helen Krummenacker ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ "Doraleen McArthur" ] Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (wa [ "Ellynne G." ] [B7L] Richard III and all that [ "Ellynne G." ] Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian [ "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:Avon as loner Message-ID: <4kU5AVAJgX95EwBc@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message <39F4ED41.5FBE@jps.net>, Helen Krummenacker writes >Important emphasis on filling time *with people*. If you don't want >people, you fill time by sitting in your room with an apple, reading a >nice tech manual or Nietzche's poetry. Then turn on some music and do >excercises. He chose to sit with the others and play meaningless games >and listen to their chat. Ergo, he is not acting like a loner. As an example from real life - one of my friends at university was another bookworm who was happy to sit and read in company. We frequently spent an afternoon sitting in her room reading our way through the section of the SF society's library that lived on her cupboard (she was the A-C librarian), with no more conversation than "your turn to make the tea". Our other friends were both bemused and amused by this, since our answer to the question "why?" was "it's much nicer to have company". -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:43:30 -0400 From: Susan Beth To: B7 Lyst Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:suspension of disbelief Message-Id: <3.0.4.32.20001023174330.00741990@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Betty Ragan wrote: >Helen Krummenacker wrote: > >> When Tanith Lee writes? Mind, I liked Sarcophagas in some ways, but... >> the avatars business was too wierd for me. I don't mind discussing them >> as theoretical avatars, i.e. Vila as the Artful Dodger-type. Seeing >> 'real' avatars of them, like they are reincarnations of her slavies, >> really stuck in my throat. I don't mind reincarnation per se, but >> granting it as a possibility, they are all on the same ship and find >> her? Too much. > >Oh, I didn't see "Sarcophagus" as suggesting that at *all*. More that >she was forcing them into those roles (which, admittedly, they just >happened to be well suited for...). And *I* saw the earlier figures as phantasm, conjured up *predictions* of what she would meet up with when revived, so there's no coincidence or forcing required on the part of the real crew. ;-) That's B7 for you: every bit can be interpreted in at least a dozen ways... Susan Beth (susanbeth33@mindspring.com) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:47:24 EST From: "J MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] That Jacket again (was Avon as loner?) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Sally Manton" > well they do say part of the appeal of shoulder pads is that they >tend to draw the eyes up and make the waist look slimmer ... Depends on whether you think he's silly enough to want to look like a gridiron player. That boy's got a strange sense of humour but I don't think it's quite that strange. Regards Joanne (Fragment to the tune of Yesterday, for Sally and Harriet: Jarriere, Though I wouldn't call you debonaire, I'm quite happy to just sit and stare When e'er I see you, Jarriere) _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: 24 Oct 00 14:49:22 PDT From: Jacqui Speel To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Bookworms Message-ID: <20001024214922.11679.qmail@www0v.netaddress.usa.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So what books would the B7 group read: I can see Avon reading Marcus Aure= lius (Meditations) - ie stoicism: would Blake read the Communist Manifesto? = Julia Jones wrote: As an example from real life - one of my friends at university was another bookworm who was happy to sit and read in company. We frequently spent an afternoon sitting in her room reading our way through the section of the SF society's library that lived on her cupboard (she was the A-C librarian), with no more conversation than "your turn to make the tea". Our other friends were both bemused and amused by this, since our answer to the question "why?" was "it's much nicer to have company". -- = Julia Jones ____________________________________________________________________ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://home= =2Enetscape.com/webmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:45:30 -0400 From: Susan Beth To: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:suspension of disbelief Message-Id: <3.0.4.32.20001023174530.00741dc4@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kathryn Andersen wrote: >The "avatars" were merely a vision of the future; assurance that the Ooops. Should have finished reading all the posts before I posted. Anyway, What She Said. Susan Beth (susanbeth33@mindspring.com) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 15:59:48 -0600 From: Betty Ragan To: B7 Lyst Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: <39F60654.48E5D972@sdc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carol Mc wrote: > Avon wasn't a dysfunctional human being; he was a very normal introvert. Now, me, I think he *was* dysfunctional in certain ways, and to a certain extent (more so as time went on and his circumstances got worse and worse), but I think that's independent of his introversion. Well, OK, not *totally* independent, as personality traits inevitably all interact in very complex ways. But I'd be the last person to suggest that there must be something wrong with someone simply because he gets irritated by other people. There's a very good reason why I live alone... But, you know, I can't imagine Avon would actually *appreciate* being called "normal." :) -- Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/ "I love hearing that lonesome wail of the train whistle as the magnitude of the frequency of the wave changes due to the Doppler effect." -- Sidney Harris ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 21:05:13 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for them ... Message-ID: <20001024.180549.-89959.0.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:32:03 -0600 Betty Ragan writes: > Sally Manton wrote: > > > A question. Who else thinks that Vila would pick up all sorts of > dreadful, > > wonderful souvenirs on all the more civilised planets we *don't* > see Our > > Heroes visiting? > > I like the idea of him collecting snow globes, personally... > Lava lamps, smiley stickers, and Smurfs. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 20:37:37 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Betty wrote: > But, you know, I can't imagine Avon would actually *appreciate* being > called "normal." :) He wouldn't. But as Tarrant told Vila (recently quoted by Shirley on the other list), you can't always get what you want. Carol Mc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 19:01:18 -0600 From: Betty Ragan To: B7 Lyst Subject: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (long) Message-ID: <39F630DE.496D66B0@sdc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wrote: > Now, me, I think he *was* dysfunctional in certain ways, and to a > certain extent (more so as time went on and his circumstances got worse > and worse). . . . It may be a bit silly, responding to one's own post, but I have the distinct premonition that someone is going to challenge me on this one and ask just exactly how and why and in what circumstances I think Avon is "dysfunctional." So I went and had a little think about the subject, and I figured I'd step forward with the answer before anybody actually asks the question. :) The thing is, IMHO "Is Avon dysfunctional?" is a really slippery question. First of all, you have to consider just what the word *means*. The way I see it, "dysfunctional" means pretty much exactly what it sounds like it means: not able to function properly. So someone who is dysfunctional has behaviors and/or attitudes and/or emotional responses that prevent them from functioning properly in their environment. Now, there are two problems here, I think, quite apart from the usual problem of how you interpret what's on the screen. First is the question of exactly how you define "functioning properly." Who gets to define just what proper, functional human behavior consists of? For instance, I think that it's fairly reasonable to make the argument that Avon's relationships with people are, in general, dysfunctional. He insults people, verbally abuses them, and generally behaves in ways that tend to be very alienating. Not the way to built healthy, happy relationships, right? Not a good way to act around the people that you have to live and work with. Right? Dysfunctional. *Except*... Except that Avon, I'm sure would (if he deigned to reply seriously at all) respond that he's not particularly interested in building good relationships with most people, and that if they can't take his particular style of interaction (and, perhaps, if they're not able to give as good as they get in Avon's verbal battles) they're not really worth his time, anyway. Now, you can debate about how *desireable* that attitude is, but it certainly doesn't seem to me to be *pathological*. And whether it's dysfunctional or not depends on just what kind of function you have in mind. The second problem is that what constitutes "functioning properly" depends a *lot* on the situation. When we call someone dysfunctional, I think, it's generally with some comaprison in mind to the behavior of normal, healthy, well-adjusted people in normal, day-to-day circumstances. A person who breaks down into tears in the street for no good reason is behaving dysfunctionally. A person who breaks down into tears in the street the day after their mother died is exhibiting perfectly normal, understandable behavior. Context is everything. The problem is, we don't see Avon in anything remotely approaching normal, day-to-day circumstances, *ever*. Life on the Liberator (or the Scorpio, or, for that matter, the London) is anything but normal. And, frankly, considering the kinds of things he's been through, if Avon didn't have any difficulties coping whatsoever, *that* would not be normal! So, is Avon dysfunctional? IMHO the answer is "yes," but since you have to keep all of the above in mind, it's a very qualified "yes." IMO Avon *does*, sometimes, behave in ways that are inappropriate, maladaptive, unhealthy... in short, dysfunctional. Examples? Certainly! How about "Terminal"? Anybody wanna argue that locking himself onto the flight deck without sleep, keeping the others in the dark about what he was doing, pulling a gun on Tarrant, etc. was adaptive, healthy, appropriate behavior? Then there's "Rumours." This is a man who is so consumed by the desire for revenge (probably, IMO, motivated by guilt) that he voluntarily undergoes five days of torture (and, not incidentally, considerably risk to his life) for a woman who, already being dead, is not in any way going to benefit from it. That, to my mind, *is* pathological. And, yes, there's "Blake." Were there rational reasons to believe that Blake possibly *had* betrayed them? Sure. But pulling the trigger was definitely *not* the appropriate thing to do. It was a violent emotional reaction, and by no means a healthy one. I can think of other examples, too, but they're all either much less serious, or much more open to interpretation, or both. (For instance, IMHO he exhibits some serious mood swings, particularly in the fourth season, that make him unpredictable to deal with in ways that I don't think are good for him or anybody else. But I realize that that's very much debatable, on several counts.) So, anyway, that's what I mean what I say that I think Avon *is* dysfunctional in certain ways, to a certain extent. Just thought I'd clarify.:) -- Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/ "The Himalayas are quite tall at this time of the year." -- Vila Restal, promoting Earth tourism, _Blake's 7_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:58:24 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: wardrobe choice in Deathwatch Message-ID: <39F63030.35DD@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >This also nicely explains him putting on that Matador jacket - when you're > >feeling cruddy, you don't tend to think too hard about what >you're doing > >first thing in the morning. > >(PS - Joanne, Mistral, does this let him off the hook?) > Joanne> No. Most human beings would go for a habitual favourite wardrobe item, or > something cuddly and comfortable they didn't have to worry about. Haven't > had breakfast yet, so I've still time to believe that leather and studs is > cuddly and comfortable. It may have a nice lining. Besides, I may go for flamboyant clothing when I feel 'bleah' to try to force myself into feeling better. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 18:07:37 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon as loner Message-ID: <39F63259.7AB0@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Wasn't me who said that, either, although I am (as usual) more inclined > to agree with Sally than with Carol. I *do* agree with whoever (was it > Marian?) said that he's a natural introvert. And, speaking as another > natural introvert, I'd be quite surprised if he *didn't* feel a periodic > need to get away from the others for a while. Urk! I started this thread and I'm beginning to see where the arguement lies. I never claimed he wasn't always introverted. But there is healthy introversion, wanting only occaisional companionship vs. an attempt at complete emotional isolation. I suggested the events in Terminal/4th season may have shown a change from being an introvert who spoke of himself as isolated to actively trying to isolate himself. {In retrospect, I don't think he changed and became a 'Dorian' (willing to kill people as a matter of convienience)-- that was what started this thread, after all.} Anyhow, intorvert, yes; isolated (true loner), no. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:27:42 -0400 From: "Doraleen McArthur" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: <008701c03e2c$88b329a0$0bf35a0c@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: > In ANIMALS Dayna tells Justin, "We've got a base, we're gathering equipment > and we're looking for allies. We're also trying to recruit experts... > specialists in relevant fields." > > Unfortunately their attempts at alliances (VOLCANO and WARLORD) both resulted > in betrayals. Which doesn't bode well for the alliance method actually > working. I just recently rewatched "Stardrive" (hey, I'm making progress in my Grand Rewatching!) and realized that in the fourth season Avon et al. were pretty much single-handedly responsible for the decimation of the independent 'specialist' corps in their area. I mean, how many people end up dead after an attempted recruitment? Several, anyway. Avon really should've grabbed that rabbit's foot from Blake before sending him off the deck in "Star One"... --Katie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:20:53 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: wardrobe choice in Deathwatch Message-ID: <20001024.230439.-409563.0.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 24 Oct 2000 17:58:24 -0700 Helen Krummenacker writes: > > >feeling cruddy, you don't tend to think too hard about what > >you're doing > > >first thing in the morning. > > > Joanne> No. Most human beings would go for a habitual favourite > wardrobe > item, or > > something cuddly and comfortable Speaking for myself, I have this one item in my wardrobe that hasn't been in style for a decade or three that I only get out when I'm feeling really lousy (or when the heater is having problems). It's also one of the loudest color patterns I own. Haven't worn it in public though since I got it. Maybe Avon didn't want to admit the light was out in his room when he had to get dressed in a hurry? Or maybe Orac decided to go all oracular again and tell him, for undisclosed reasons, his survival odds went up dramatically if he wore it (as things heated up between the two rival planets, no one mistook him for a native of the other place. And the sight of it obviously effected Servalan's thinking enough that she didn't come up with an effective plan for stopping Avon's interference). Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:54:53 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (long) Message-ID: <20001024.230439.-409563.1.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd say Avon was a tad dysfunctional since I see his efforts to limit any warm and fuzzy feelings in his vicinity as having a majorly defensive edge. That is, he goes to great lengths to discourage people in liking him and equally great lengths to discourage them in thinking he likes (or could like) them. However, when push comes to shove, he often goes to even greater lengths to protect these same people - and then denies having any motive other than blunt practicality. He also, IMHO, is making these denials not only to them but to himself. So, Avon (IMHO) has two mutually exclusive goals. 1) He wishes to avoid emotional connections to others, but 2) He puts great value on the connections he has. I also see him as being in denial about the conflict. Add to this some of his statements about things like sentiment, ("Let it get ahold of you and you are dead") and it seems arguable he's doing this as a defense mechanism - he sees these connections as weaknesses, either vulnerabilities he can be attacked through or things that effect his ability to survive and prosper. Because I see him as being in denial about his failure to protect himself on this front, I obviously think there's one King Kong sized emotional load behind that denial. JMHO. In a connected way, I was thinking of various things in Avonish stories (fanfic stuff again), and I have to admit one point. I don't like to admit this, but there's another problem I see him as having. In the dating department, I see Avon as far more likely to enter into a relationship he could initially define as 'casual' and then claim any loyalties or obligations as an after the fact type of thing. Example: he'd been rather close with Anna for (I would guess) quite some time before admitting he actually _trusted_ her. In RoD, Avon doesn't tell Shrinker he loved Anna - that's left to other people. He could even argue, if he wanted, that he would do the same for a woman who meant practically nothing to him, that killing his lover was an affront to _him_. As he said, he made the promise to _himself_ (not that I would buy that argument, but so long as he's happy with it....). He might enter into a marriage after from some kind of 'practical concerns,' but I must regretfully admit I don't see him going into things like that first. Given the way things were in the Federation, he might also enter into marriage from a practical point of view (probably meaning money and/or power). Or if he saw it as necessary to his long term survival (although, depending on how the offer was made, I could see him chosing death first just to make a point). Which brings up inevitable problems when that runs smack into plotting needs. Just mentioning it. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 23:04:38 -0600 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Richard III and all that Message-ID: <20001024.230439.-409563.2.rilliara@juno.com> Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, yes, I've always wondered if Richard weren't innocent. The evidence couldn't get a conviction these days, all defense statements are lost to history, and I don't trust official evidence revealed 20 years after the fact (and after the rather private execution). Although he did have motive and opportunity. So did others, but he really had the most of both. OTOH, I do like that painting and he wasn't as execution happy as some parties I could name. I understand the character Paul Darrow played in a certain Dr. Who episode has been compared to Richard. And Richard did marry and Anne (well, it's _close_ to Anna). One wonders what Shakespeare would have done with Avon, especially if he knew he had to take Servalan being queen into account. . . . Other trivia: Just realized for the first time the pun in Tarrant's name. D. Tarrant. Don't tell me they didn't plan that. Oh, and I thought Tarrant for Thor because Tarrant (I think) means thunder. More trivia: Soolin in Warlord. I think Tarrant's crush on Pinkie... uh, Zeeona, must have reminded her of some event in her past, like maybe Zeeona reminded her of her sister or something who wouldn't have been there for the massacre if Dad had let her go out on that date (OK, I haven't found a _good_ reason yet, I'm working on it). Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 06:58:52 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Carol wrote: Well imperfectly introvert ... with some decided (and fairly blatant) extrovert qualities. And Betty: One thing we must all remember - what is - in our relatively safe and secure little Western society - 'normal' would probably count as decidedly not normal in a society like theirs. Which begs the question - given such sketchy evidence as we have, what *would* count as normal the Federation? Servalan or Alta Morag? Dev Tarrant? Bercol and Rontane? Parr? Keillor?!? Dr Bellfriar ... maybe, but he basically ran and found himself a faux-ivory tower ... And Ellynne: To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Avon as loner? (was Dorian and Avon and *is* long ...) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Katie wrote: - which means you get Animals next, lucky you ... :-) And it doesn't stop there ... our own little Angels of Death, aren't they? Personally, were I a 4th-season Mary Sue, I'd run a light year at the first glint of the studs *or* the teeth ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:03:45 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: wardrobe choice in Deathwatch Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ellynne writes: The immediate mental picture of Avon in a tatty, faded old dressing gown (which HAS to be flannel, of course) and slippers with the toes worn right through is certainly different :-) Though personally I see Blake as more the type to hang onto ancient and disreputable old clothing, long after everyone else thinks that the laser burns and badly mended helium-flux-shredder-thing rips (well, can *you* see him darning? Or anyone on the ship offering to do it for him?) have put it past the pale. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:32:52 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] That Jacket again (was Avon as loner?) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Joanne wrote: <(Fragment to the tune of Yesterday, for Sally and Harriet: ...> Oh Joanne that's so ... so ... *him* ... _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 09:33:39 GMT From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Bookworms Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jacqui asks: Avon - Ambrose Bierce (both the Devil's Dictionary and the Civil War stories.) The Name of the Rose. Alexander Pope (that is, of anyone as inspiringly vitriolic as Pope wasn't banned :-)). Blake - social and/or military history (I also think with his curiosity about people, he'd share my own love of reading published letters and diaries ). Steinbeck. Vilakins - urrk. Not much of a reader, but I think he'd enjoy the 'Flashman' books (in audio, if possible) ... Gan - Dickens. Definitely Dickens. _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 12:49:59 +0200 From: Natasa Tucev To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon as loner? Message-Id: <200010251049.MAA02780@Tesla.rcub.bg.ac.yu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Carol Mc wrote: >As I've said before, I think part of the conflict between Avon and Blake was >the extreme differences in their personality types. Blake wouldn't mean to >discomfort Avon, but his personality is so overwhelming it would be very >difficult for an introvert to cope with that in close quarters over a long >period of time. There was also an indication that Avon inadvertently hurt >Blake--because introverts don't understand how cold and uncaring they can >appear to extroverts--which is why Blake responded with the hurt comment >about Avon really hating him in STAR ONE. > >I also think the sensitivity that built up during seasons one and two led to >Avon's quick trigger finger in BLAKE. Whether he realized it or not, Avon's >body was probably tensing in anticipation of another "dose" of Blake from the >moment he decided to go to Gauda Prime. > You made me think... There is a scene in 'Cygnus Alpha', when Avon has just discovered the Liberator gun and he points it at Blake and Blake walks nonchalantly towards him as if nothing were wrong. It is almost echoed on Gauda Prime, Blake probably thinking 'It's just Avon pointing his gun at me, I can handle it.' This could even be the paradigm of their relationship: on numerous occasions Blake places his life or his safety in Avon's hands, and Avon has plenty of opportunities to kill him or betray him, which he never does. In the 'Cygnus Alpha' scene Blake, who can really think quickly when in danger, probably reasons: Jenna is on my side, and even though we are not armed, the two of us could probably overpower Avon and dump him into deep space. Still, this is not what he does. Instead he says to Avon, 'You are a free man', in other words, I'm giving you the freedom of choice, I let your conscience decide. And this becomes a pattern between the two of them. On the one hand, Blake forces Avon to do things much against his grain - to be an idealist, to fight a revolution, to risk his neck for the rabble. On the other, he constantly places Avon in situations where he could easily set himself free, if only his conscience (or his feelings for Blake?) would allow it. Avon is held captive of Blake's idealism, but it is a deal in which Blake pawns his own head. Killing Blake is a kind of 'objective correlative' for the moral downfall Avon is always tempted to undertake. In other words, Blake seems to say, 'If you want to quit, you'll have to walk over my dead body.' Which he eventually does. N. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 07:45:40 EDT From: Bizarro7@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, freedom-city@blakes-7.org Subject: [B7L] B7 articles in SF magazines, B7 Fanzines Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A whole mess of new B7-related listings have just gone up at the Ashton Press eBay auction page. If you've been searching for SF magazines that contain B7 articles and photos and some classic old, out-of-print fanzines from both B7 and many other fandoms, we've currently got a large number of items up with very low opening bid prices. Have a look and enjoy, even if you choose not to bid. Good luck! eBay View About Me for ashton7 (http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/ashton7/) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:04:40 -0400 From: "Christine+Steve" To: "B7 Mailing List" Subject: Re: [B7L] I didn't say he *paid* for them ... Message-ID: <009101c03e8c$9275a160$ec099ad8@cgorman> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellynne G. wrote > On Mon, 23 Oct 2000 09:32:03 -0600 Betty Ragan writes: > > Sally Manton wrote: > > > > > A question. Who else thinks that Vila would pick up all sorts of > > dreadful, > > > wonderful souvenirs on all the more civilised planets we *don't* > > see Our > > > Heroes visiting? > > > > I like the idea of him collecting snow globes, personally... > > > Lava lamps, smiley stickers, and Smurfs. Maybe he'd go for bumper stickers for the Liberator. "Freedom Fighters do it with a gun under their pillow", or "My other ship is a clapped out planet hopper". Steve D. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:15:57 EDT From: Mac4781@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Is Avon dysfunctional? (was Re: Avon as loner?) (long) Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Betty wrote: > It may be a bit silly, responding to one's own post, but I have the > distinct premonition that someone is going to challenge me on this one > and ask just exactly how and why and in what circumstances I think Avon > is "dysfunctional." Actually, the reason I didn't respond was because there was nothing specific to grab hold of, and I couldn't see of the point of an "I think he's dysfunctional" - "I don't think he is" exchange. But now that you've given me some points to respond to, it becomes interesting. I pondered your points during my morning tramp through the fog. > The way I see it, "dysfunctional" means pretty much exactly > what it sounds like it means: not able to function properly. That seems to be a good basis for the discussion no matter what one's personal definition of dysfunctional is. > So someone > who is dysfunctional has behaviors and/or attitudes and/or emotional > responses that prevent them from functioning properly in their > environment. The environment is, I think, an important consideration. Because many (all?) of the B7ers behave in ways that would be considered inappropriate per our society. But the B7 universe is much darker. > For > instance, I think that it's fairly reasonable to make the argument that > Avon's relationships with people are, in general, dysfunctional. I have to admit to being completely blind to his relationships as dysfunctional. Probably because I can see myself behaving exactly as he did. > He > insults people, verbally abuses them, and generally behaves in ways that > tend to be very alienating. Not the way to built healthy, happy > relationships, right? You've already answered this for me. Avon doesn't want healthy, happy relationships. His pushing people away is planned and calculated in a way to make *his* life *happier.* He doesn't want ties. Is it abnormal not to want the responsibility that comes with close relationships? Not to my way of thinking. It's work to maintain close relationships. Avon recognizes that some aspects of life are much easier if you are an emotional loner. He doesn't want to have to depend on other people; he doesn't want other people to depend on him. If you can actually achieve perfect distancing from everyone else--and I don't think anyone except a hermit who never has contact with anyone else can totally manage that--then you always know exactly where you stand. You know how your energies and time will be committed. It honestly sounds very attractive to me. But, back to Avon. His attempts to push people away, to alienate them, don't succeed. Poor baybee. And he shows that he can interact with them, come to care for them, etc. Which suggests normal to me. > Life on the Liberator (or the > Scorpio, or, for that matter, the London) is anything but normal. And, > frankly, considering the kinds of things he's been through, if Avon > didn't have any difficulties coping whatsoever, *that* would not be > normal! Exactly. He's living under a lot of pressure. That he does cope so well is one of the reasons I don't see him as dysfunctional. > Examples? Certainly! How about "Terminal"? Anybody wanna argue that > locking himself onto the flight deck without sleep, keeping the others > in the dark about what he was doing, pulling a gun on Tarrant, etc. was > adaptive, healthy, appropriate behavior? This is one of those circumstances of environment. Avon is faced with a near-impossible problem. He can't in good conscience leave Blake to a possibly ugly fate, and he won't in good conscience involve his shipmates in something that he believes to be trap. Now I don't know about you, but when I'm mentally agitated, I don't sleep well. In Avon's situation, I wouldn't be able to sleep. Keeping the others in the dark is reasonable if his goal was to protect them, which is how I see it. If he tells them, they are going to insist on helping him. He doesn't want to put them in danger. It's an indication of how much all of them have come to mean to him. Another sign of someone who is functioning normally and who is able to relate to other people to my way of thinking. Point three, pulling the gun on Tarrant. The man has been without sleep; he sees verbal arguments aren't getting him anywhere; he pulls a gun. It's the same type of frustrating circumstance that caused Tarrant to pull a gun on Vila in MOLOCH. Dysfunctional or desperate? I'd rate the gun pulling as the latter. Sure, there are other possibilities in both instances, but we all have moments where we go for the quick fix over trying to figure out how else we might handle the situation. I don't expect Avon (or Tarrant) to be perfect. > Then there's "Rumours." This > is a man who is so consumed by the desire for revenge (probably, IMO, > motivated by guilt) that he voluntarily undergoes five days of torture > (and, not incidentally, considerably risk to his life) for a woman who, > already being dead, is not in any way going to benefit from it. That, > to my mind, *is* pathological. I pondered that one especially while I walked, and I didn't come up with pathological. If someone I loved had been tortured and killed and if the only way to bring the one responsible to justice was to undergo five days of severe pain and to risk my life, would I do it? Yes. Without a doubt. Five days of pain is an eye blink of discomfort compared to a lifetime of mental anguish. The risk to life preferable to long years of living with the knowledge that someone who had tortured and killed a loved one was going unpunished. I was reminded of the character that Sally Field played in "An Eye for an Eye." Was her character pathological or would many of us have wanted to do the same thing (though we may not have had the will to carry it out) in that same situation? > And, yes, there's "Blake." Were there > rational reasons to believe that Blake possibly *had* betrayed them? > Sure. But pulling the trigger was definitely *not* the appropriate > thing to do. It was a violent emotional reaction, and by no means a > healthy one. Not healthy by our standards. But in Avon's situation? He's a wanted fugitive. He's in the midst of enemy territory. Security has been called. He's already asked Blake if he betrayed him. And received an answer that he took to be yes. What else would you have him do? Ask more questions? Tell Blake he never wants to see him again? Avon is a soldier on a battlefield. He's identified the enemy. He shoots. What's of more interest to me in "Blake" is that Avon so easily believed that Blake could betray him. And it always comes back to their personality conflict and to Avon's view of Blake. Avon saw that Blake's rebellion was corrupting Blake. Blake reached the point that had him willing to wade in blood to win. I can see where Avon could believe that the corruption went one step farther. > So, anyway, that's what I mean what I say that I think Avon *is* > dysfunctional in certain ways, to a certain extent. Just thought I'd > clarify.:) Which I very much appreciate. It prompted me to think more deeply about Avon's behavior and why he acted as he did. Carol Mc -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #297 **************************************