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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 00 : Issue 257

Today's Topics:
  Re: [B7L] Awkward phrases             [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Awkward phrases             [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
  Re: Evidence of Religion (was Re: [B  [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
  [B7L] Auron                           [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
  [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion        [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
  [B7L] Sevencyclopaedia                [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Auron                       [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ]
  Re: [B7L] Auron                       [ Susan Moore <Susan.Moore@uni.edu> ]
  [B7L] Re: Crossover potential?        [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
  Re: [B7L] Re: Crossover potential?    [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
  Re: [B7L] Auron                       [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
  Re: [B7L] Auron                       [ sjk3@cornell.edu ]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 18:49:45 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Awkward phrases
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0911174945-566Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Mon 11 Sep, Andrew Williams wrote:
> 
> Marian wrote:
> 
> >What does feel out of place to me is Vila referring to "Judgement Day" in
> >Horizon.
> 
> I feel that Vila's remark in Harvest, "They don't take (too?) kindly to
> scrumping on Kairos", is hideously out of place.  It's all too Billy Bunter
> and Jennings & Derbyshire etc.

You're getting confused with 'scrumptious'.   'Scrumping' is stealing apples
from an orchard - presumably the root of the word scrumpy (a form of rough
cider).

Hence, Vila is refering to theft of something that grows locally on Kairos.

Judith
-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01  23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 16:58:54 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Awkward phrases
Message-ID: <F115fogkJXrRjbDt3Hv00009478@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
>You're getting confused with 'scrumptious'.

And now I've been made to think of Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. We're back to 
Dick Van Dyke again. Oh dear.

Regards
Joanne
(it's this working late that does it)



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Date: Mon, 11 Sep 2000 19:08:29 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Evidence of Religion (was Re: [B7L] Re: Sara = 54124)
Message-ID: <000201c01cdf$c9fc1700$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Alison Page <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>


> Betty said -
>
> > there is something about the whole Catholic
> > guilt thing that does seem strangely appropriate for Avon
>
> I can't see this at all, though. It seems to me that the religious guilt
> thing depends on being guilty for the inevitable attributes of corporeal
> existence. Feeling guilty for your very existence as a limited and
> biological entity.

This rather echoes the attitude in my one and only 'adult' story to make
print (in Forbidden Star 2), but that was about Tarrant rather than Avon.
Though Tarrant was depicted as a kind of Federation Everyman, making him
representative of at least part of Avon.

Neil (ex-Catholic)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:21:54 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Auron
Message-ID: <20000912.112200.-400979.1.rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

All this talk about religion and culture has got me wondering, what does
everybody think about Auron's religion and cultural background?

Sorry for the DotG reference, but I think it's safe to say they were
originally polytheists a la Chariots of the Gods.  Cally states those
beliefs are no longer in vogue, but she's in denial about one of those
gods being in the neighborhood at that point and could be overstating her
case.  She's also something of a nonconformist by Auron standards and may
be giving _her_ position as if it were more common than it is.

I've always thought the Aurons were human or human derived, even if they
weren't aware of it (on Chenga, Cally was an acceptable organ donor so
she'd have to be pretty similar genetically).  But what human culture
were they derived from (I'm assuming a single, dominent one, which may be
wrong)?

Originally, I thought Cally's name was Kali, which suggests a Hindu
background.  However, Cally is Greek and Auron could have either Latin or
Greek roots.  However, the few other names we have don't sound remotely
Greek (arguments could be made for anything from German to Chinese).  
Any ideas?

Also, what _was_ their culture like?  What do most people think?

Ellynne
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 11:03:23 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Evidence of Religion
Message-ID: <20000912.112200.-400979.0.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Sun, 10 Sep 2000 09:03 +0100 moore@britishlibrary.net writes:
> 
>    >I don't know.  The Federation seems very much the kind of regime 
> that
>    >would discourage religion for a variety of reasons.  There's 
> also little
> 
> OK, I don't often add my tuppen'orth but perhaps I should. There is 
> *no* human society that is without religion; while religions differ 
> wildly, and while individuals may be atheists, there's always 
> something there. 

Please, Fiona, feel free to put your tuppenth'orth in any time you want. 
I knew you knew more about this than I do (and you say it a lot better,
too).

The so-called "atheistic" society of Stalinist 
> Russia had a sort of worship of the state and its heroes (why 
> exactly were people queueing for hours to go into Lenin's tomb, eh?) 
> and though it discouraged other religions, it was rapidly recognised 
> that it would be suicide to ban them.
> 
> I must confess I have occasionally wondered if the Federation had a 
> similar sort of situation, but there's even less evidence for that 
> than for other sorts of religion.

I think the Federation must have, both for the reasons you give and
because they do kind of encourage a blind allegiance to the state.  But
that's just IMHO.  I also think they would have banned religion for the
reasons cited and because any religion that wasn't actually operated by
the state would be a rival for social influence.  Also, I think it's
significant that one of the few cases of human religion operating openly
was on a penal colony.  Although, by the time Blake gets there, it's
fairly corrupt with a dominent purpose of supporting an unpleasant
regime, it could tie back to 'convicts' who were nothing more than people
who wouldn't give up their faith.
> 
> As an anthropologist, incidentally, it does strike me as interesting 
> that the whole discussion thus far has been very much from a 
> Christian viewpoint. Who is to say that the religion which 
> preceded/still exists in the Federation regime is Christian? The 
> existence of concepts of Hell and salvation are not proof positive-- 
> they exist elsewhere.

True enough.  Speaking from my own POV, it's the one I know best.  I've
also read a fair amount about how some other Christian denominations view
it (enough to feel I can make intelligent comments).  Outside of that, I
don't consider myself ignorant - but I don't consider myself the most
informed commentator either.

However, those were Catholic nun costumes in Gambit and Blake made a
reference to churches, not mosques or temples.  Cygnus Alpha also seemed
to be monotheistic, which cuts a few faiths out of the running (of
course, they also seemed to be into human sacrifice, which would cut out
most  religions these days, monotheistic or not).

Maybe the Federation's version of history makes a point of blaming
religion for past problems?

Ellynne
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 22:04:36 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Cc: Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] Sevencyclopaedia
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0912210436-d63Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

There's several new Sevencyclopaedia entries.  Check out Chronometers, Ranks,
Fluid Particles, High Admiral, and the whole Fanlore section

All new articles are by Murray Smith (though the entry on Ranks draws heavily on
some excellent work done by Ross) and I'm staggered by the level of research. 
Just look at the Chronometers entry - I never knew there were so many watches -
he's even spotted the same characters wearing more than one model.

Joyce Bowen's summary of magazines with Blake's 7 articles is up.

There's some new episode reviews by Marian de Haarn and will be some more as
soon as I catch up with the editing.

I'd like to say a big thank you to all of the above and also to those who write
the zine reviews and essays and give us news items and everything else.  We've
passed 30,000 hits this year on the top page alone and that shows how much
people appreciate everything you do.

Judith


PS.  We've also scanned in some pretty pictures from the theatre booklet for
Gareth's current plays - no pic of Gareth, but they're still very nice pictures
and well worth looking at as art in their own right.
-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01  23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 21:00:13 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Auron
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0912200013-6d1Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII

On Tue 12 Sep, Ellynne G. wrote:
> All this talk about religion and culture has got me wondering, what does
> everybody think about Auron's religion and cultural background?

Ah!  I used to think they were aliens, but Neil converted me.  Occam's Razor. 
If they look human, then they are human.

I assume they were 'taken' by the Auron 'gods' from Earth in a pre-space flight
era.  That pretty well fits the Auron legend in Dawn of the Gods.

CALLY:    The story goes back to the mists of Time, to the Dawn of the
          Gods. There were seven gods who discovered the planet Auron,
          and on it left the first man and woman. A million years went
          by. The gods returned. They were no older even though a
          million years had past.
   AVON:  Not impossible if they had a spaceship capable of traveling at
          near the speed of light.
  CALLY:  I did say it was just a legend. The gods returned and were
          pleased with what they saw, and they bestowed on the people of
          Auron great gifts: new types of crops, which ended hunger,
          constant peace --
TARRANT:  And telepathy?
  CALLY:  -- and telepathy was promised
  
  
And telepathy was added later by genetic engineering, but only became widespead
when the Auronar worked out how to clone carriers of the gene and how to insert
the gene into clones of non-carriers.  
          
> I've always thought the Aurons were human or human derived, even if they
> weren't aware of it (on Chenga, Cally was an acceptable organ donor so
> she'd have to be pretty similar genetically).

A good piece of supporting evidence that I hadn't thought of before.


>  But what human culture were they derived from (I'm assuming a single,
> dominent one, which may be wrong)?

Doesn't matter - after that length of time it would have developed it's own way.

> 
> Originally, I thought Cally's name was Kali, which suggests a Hindu
> background.  However, Cally is Greek and Auron could have either Latin or
> Greek roots.  However, the few other names we have don't sound remotely
> Greek (arguments could be made for anything from German to Chinese).  
> Any ideas?

All we have are Franton, CA1 CA2 and Zelda.  And Leeharn.

CA1 I always took (with no firm evidence) to be Control Auron 1.  ie. the
spaceport control head.  I assume that they only had a few people who interacted
with outsiders and they were the ones who spoke English.

It's a large planet so names could come in many linguistic patterns.
> 
> Also, what _was_ their culture like?  What do most people think?

That's a question with a very long answer - I'll leave it for Neil for today. 
His ideas aren't totally the same as mine, but he's given it a *lot* of thought
and written stories around it.

Judith

-- 
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 -  Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc.  (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01  23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:15:57 -0500
From: Susan Moore <Susan.Moore@uni.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Auron
Message-id: <39BEAB1D.29CEECAE@uni.edu>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

"Ellynne G." wrote:

> Originally, I thought Cally's name was Kali, which suggests a Hindu
> background.

Suggests, perhaps, but doesn't require a Hindu background.  I have a niece
who's name is Kalina and has the nickname Kali, though I doubt there's much
of an awareness of Hindu deities in that branch of the family.

Susan M.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 18:05:35 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Crossover potential?
Message-ID: <39BED2DF.3D13@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> but let's not go there since I don't see much potential for a B7/SW
> crossover I could get into [Emperor: Avon, give in to your hate, give
> yourself to the Dark Side.  Avon: All right [shoots at Emperor Servatine,
> misses.  Hits Darth Blake instead.  End of series] ).
> 
But what if you put *Vila* in the Luke role? He isn't fond of weapons or
fighting. OTOH, he might take a few risks for a Soolin in a slinky white
dress (and better yet in Leia's Return of the Jedi bikini).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 12:39:26 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Crossover potential?
Message-ID: <F311yz5b6KZmcK8r6be00003c98@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
>But what if you put *Vila* in the Luke role? He isn't fond of weapons or
>fighting. OTOH, he might take a few risks for a Soolin in a slinky white
>dress (and better yet in Leia's Return of the Jedi bikini).

Now you've got me thinking of Avon being carbon-frozen. It'd certainly keep 
him quiet. Though you may have had another victim, sorry, character in mind 
for the part of Han Solo, for all I know.

Regards
Joanne



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Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2000 23:41:29 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Auron
Message-ID: <20000912.234130.-89349.0.rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

On Tue, 12 Sep 2000 17:15:57 -0500 Susan Moore <Susan.Moore@uni.edu>
writes:
> "Ellynne G." wrote:
> 
> > Originally, I thought Cally's name was Kali, which suggests a 
> Hindu
> > background.
> 
> Suggests, perhaps, but doesn't require a Hindu background.  I have a 
> niece
> who's name is Kalina and has the nickname Kali, though I doubt 
> there's much
> of an awareness of Hindu deities in that branch of the family.
>
See? It's terribly hard to make judgements based on five words total
(Cally, Auron, Zelda, Thaarn [which may be borrowed from the Thaarn's
language and not count] and Franton. Oh, and LiHan. Six).  And were any
of them named for nonAurons (given Cally's offworld sympathies, she and
Zelda would be the most likely of the four Aurons to have nonAuron names
[which is hardly evidence, I know], which would mean goodbye evidence of
Greek influence).

Cultures in isolation with a minimum of outside influences may remain
relatively stable. But would Auron be significantly changed from its
parent culture(s) or not? Carts in India still have the same distance
between wheels they did 4,000 years ago. Could Auron be that stable?

Oh, all right, the real question: Do I want Auron to have a culture with
recognizably Terran roots or not? If I do, what culture do I want?

She doesn't do kimonos, I know that much.

Ellynne
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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2000 10:03:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: sjk3@cornell.edu
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Auron
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1000913100030.11586A-100000@travelers.mail.cornell.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

> Cultures in isolation with a minimum of outside influences may remain
> relatively stable. But would Auron be significantly changed from its
> parent culture(s) or not? Carts in India still have the same distance
> between wheels they did 4,000 years ago. Could Auron be that stable?

     Possibly.  I suspect a major reason the cartwheels still have the
same spacing is because they didn't have paved roads for the majority of
those 4000 years (and many areas still don't have them).  You used what
was comfortable for the draft animals and fit in the ruts already worn
into the tracks. 

Sandra Kisner
sjk3@cornell.edu

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End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #257
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