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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 242
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] In Praise of Dark and Dysf [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Five minutes after _Voice [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
RE: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane) [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7 II? [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7 II? [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
Re: [B7L] Liberator space travel [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
Re: [B7L] Liberator space travel [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
Re: [B7L] Liberator space travel [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
Re: [B7L] info request [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
Re: [B7L] In Praise of Dark and Dysf [ "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.n ]
Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? (playing [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? [ "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet ]
Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
[B7L] Re:recasting [ Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1 ]
Re: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane) [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
[B7L] Re: Sally's request [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
Re: [B7L] Re:recasting (from btvs) [ "David Henderson" <David.Henderson@ ]
[B7L] Re: interpretations of Avon [ Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net> ]
Re: [B7L] In Praise of Dark and Dysf [ Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana. ]
Re: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane) [ B7Morrigan@aol.com ]
[B7L] More frame captures [ Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net> ]
[B7L] Orac the Great (was Why Not Bl [ "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.co ]
Re: [B7L] Re:recasting (from btvs) [ Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@w ]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:00:19 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] In Praise of Dark and Dysfunctional ...
Message-ID: <39A98F73.38AAC6D8@sdc.org>
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Sally Manton wrote:
> There's that rather singular but unshakeable brand of honesty, which
> insists that he will not (knowingly) lie to himself or about himself
> - that makes him constantly seek to warn the others, keep them wary
> of him, keep them from trusting him, but also means that he's
> forced, albeit begrudgingly, to live up to trust given, even when he
> didn't want it and openly rejects it (this I love about him - it's
> not *his* fault that Blake insists on trusting him, but he still
> reluctantly accepts the responsibility that goes with it.) And of
> course, it means having given his word, he will keep it through
> hell, high water and alien invasions (Star One).
Hmm. I half-agree and half-disagree with this... "Honesty" is not
quite the word I would use. If anything, it seems to me that the way
he warns people off is somewhat *dishonest*: IMHO he (probably quite
deliberately) exaggerates his own bad qualities, his dangerousness, in
order to keep people at a distance. As for lying to himself... I
keep waffling back and forth on this issue. There are times when I'm
quite convinced that Avon's in deep denial about most of his own
emotional issues, and is probably lying to himself nearly every minute
of every day... and there are other times when I'm equally convinced
that he knows his own mind (and heart) perfectly well and is entirely
aware of every nuance of his own reactions. I never can quite make up
my own mind (though I strongly suspect the answer lies somewhere in
the middle). I *do* think, though, that there are times when he at
least *tries* (however unsuccessfully) to lie to himself. "I do not
need anyone at all," for a major instance.
I agree -- I absolutely agree -- that he *does* keep his word, once
it's given, no matter what, and also that he does feel himself bound
to live up to others' trust, once they've forced it on him. Again,
though, I don't see that as having a great deal to do with honesty per
se. I'm not sure that honesty is something Avon values greatly for
its own sake. What he *does* have is something that's perhaps better
described as "loyalty" (although that word somehow doesn't feel quite
right, either). In Avon's belief, the worst possible sin is to betray
someone who trusts and cares for you, and that is the one thing he
*will not* do. If he keeps his word, if he lives up to trust given
him (even if he didn't ask for or want it), it's all to do with that
determination not commit betrayal. That might result in a peculiar
form of honesty, but IMO the honesty itself is far from primary.
(After all, he's quite willing to *deceive* the people he cares about,
if it will help to protect them. "Hostage" being the obvious case in
point.)
Since we're talking about Avon's good points here, I hasten to add
that I very much share this belief of Avon's, and that I think the fact
that he truly lives by it is extremely admirable.
> He has a great deal of physical courage, but even more he has moral
> courage, if of a different type than Blake or Cally or Gan. Having
> chosen his own path, he accepts the right of others to condemn him
> for what he is and does (in fact, he sometimes seems to welcome it
> :-)).
He *does* seem to welcome it, IMHO sometimes a little more than is
healthy. I think there are (at least) two things going on there... One
is that
he realizes that if he's going to put on that "I am a selfish bastard
and not to be trusted" routine, then it's perfectly reasonable for
others to look upon him that way. In fact, if they do, then he's
succeeded and can feel pleased with himself. The second is that Avon
sometimes buys his own propaganda and thinks of *himself* as a selfish
bastard not to be trusted. A lot of bad things have happened to
people who trusted and relied on him, and (deliberately or not) he was
at least partially responsible for a lot of it. "I failed Anna [or
Cally, or Blake]" is a bit too close to "I betrayed Anna [or Cally or
Blake]," and he does, I think, have something of a tendency to wallow
in guilt (although he certainly won't do so *publicly*). I think Avon
very much fears being the thing he hates most: a Judas. (Something
that just makes "Blake" all the more heart-wrenching...)
Hmm. It suddenly occurs to me that there's a real potential here for
an unfortunate positive feedback loop: he doesn't want to betray
people, so he pushes them away to keep them from trusting him, but the
more people fail to trust him, the more it seems to confirm to him
that he's not worthy of trust, so the more he needs to push everyone
away... And Blake, bless him, broke that ugly little loop *very*
neatly.
(All the above very much based on my own personal interpretation of the
character, obviously. And I think I may have belabored some of the
above before, but not here, so what the heck!)
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"Imposing Latin rules on English structure is a little
like trying to play baseball in ice skates." -- Bill Bryson
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:02:40 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Five minutes after _Voice from the Past_...
Message-ID: <39A99000.C780C8DB@sdc.org>
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Predatrix wrote:
> Well, Sally, I dunno about 24 hours. I can do five minutes, though.
[LOL!] Yay, Pred!
> Vila jumped in, "Well, you made me think Avon and Cally were pairing
> off, and you said we had to gang up against the others, and you were
> hypnotised so you kept going loony, and then you made me go down to
> this really crap asteroid _instead of Del 10_," he wailed, "and you
> said that for the sake of Truth and Freedom we had to go along with
> someone we found there."
I abosolutely *adore* this rendition of Vila! (It's the "_instead of
Del 10_" that does it. :))
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"Imposing Latin rules on English structure is a little
like trying to play baseball in ice skates." -- Bill Bryson
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:05:18 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane)
Message-ID: <F234ZDgC81TbdkSmLAz0000022b@hotmail.com>
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>From: Louise Rutter <Louise.Rutter@btinternet.com>
>Hmmm. I'd prefer to see him do Blake rather than Avon. He can do driven
>obsessive brilliantly, has done so as both Giles and Oliver in different
>ways. In fact, he's another of those actors who seems able to turn a hand
>to just about anything....
I'm remembering the first version of Jonathan Creek's boss, at this point.
But then, I've never seen any other role he's played (is now a good time to
admit I've never seen an episode of Buffy in my life?).
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:14:16 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7 II?
Message-ID: <F37WuLn5U9T3TGJ2TUS00000256@hotmail.com>
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>From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
> >attempting to join the sections of the joint Mistral/Dana filk
>It's interesting to note that Joanne's is POV Blake and mine is (you're
>dying of surprise here, right?).
I began to change my mind, and was beginning to think of Vila as the POV.
That was before I gave up for the weekend, and started thinking of a filk
for Dayna to a folk tune. Not finished that either, suprise, suprise...
> > (Thinking about Avon interviewing potential flatmates. Ouch.)
>I think I saw that movie already--it's called "Shallow Grave."
<grin> God help me, little wonder I hadn't any luck with that sort of
encouragement!
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:20:26 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II?
Message-ID: <F210PPzQT456UnHAaaz0000021b@hotmail.com>
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>From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
>Re American Pie: something about
>Built by Ensor,
>Late of Mensa,
>But his batt'ries ran dry ?
And his good ol' boy's hijacking ships on the sly
Singing "This may be the day that you die."
Don't get me started...
Regards
Joanne
(Dana, this one is ALL yours...)
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:26:22 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II?
Message-ID: <F1693vSAMfKQu1bCdUg0000023b@hotmail.com>
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> > I met it on the shore over Ensor's place
This was intended for the first line of the Orac/Lola filk. Now it strikes
me that something to the tune of Da Doo Ron Ron might also be started like
this.
<howl> I'm at work; why aren't I?
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 08:35:31 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: blakes7 II?
Message-ID: <F114rmTIVvLVKi3s1ws00000264@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: mistral@ptinet.net
>Oh, yeah, I agree he could absolutely do Avon
Trouble is, and I hate to provide fodder for those who don't wish to see
anyone else as Avon, Rickman's only about 5 years younger than Darrow. And
for anyone that doesn't care for the idea of "Paul Darrow, action hero" at
this stage in his life...
>(Mind you, if Avon is as actor-proof as Iain says then I want Keanu.)
This is slightly less scary than Kathryn's suggestion on the spinlist, but
it's still a bit scary.
Regards
Joanne
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 21:19:29 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II?
Message-ID: <021901c0107c$e73d0960$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
> > >Carol wrote:
> > >On the same topic--liking shipmates--it was interesting to hear Gareth
say
> > >(on THE ACTOR SPEAKS CD) that Blake didn't like any of his shipmates.
He
> > >cared about them in the way you'd care about anyone you came in contact
> > >with, but there was no deep caring. He primarily viewed them as tools
to
> > >use for the job he was trying to accomplish
> Jessica:
>> I'm not sure he ever or would ever have put their needs above those
> > of his cause and it could probably be argued that his main motive was
to
> > keep his only supporters and the rebellion alive. I always got the
> > impression that he considered all of them, himself included as tools
toward
> > a greater good.
>
> Hmmm. Me & housemate co-snippetted once (lost, or I would post) where Avon
was
> trying to convince Blake to get some more people on the crew, since if
they
> *had* to fight the Federation they might as well have some cannon fodder
around
> to even the odds up a bit, and Blake was fairly sickened at the idea of
asking
> people to risk their lives in a soldier-type cannon-fodder way, insisting
that
> he should know and care about the people who fought with him, otherwise he
was
> no better than the Federation, blah, blah. <snip> So I can't see Blake
treating the others (or
> himself) *only* as tools. Except maybe Vila, but I'm not getting into
*that*
> fight again, so I'll just say IMHO.
Blake, as a revolutionary idealist (with aspirations to being an ideal
revolutionary) would be caught up in the usual paradox. As a revolutionary,
the Cause must come first, with the dispassionate ruthlessness that alone
can vindicate pursuing it in the first place. But the Cause, being
essentially humanitarian in its goals, implies that people are not to be
exploited in the pursuit - they are an end in themselves, not a means to an
end. So Blake has to care about their welfare, whether he wants to or not,
as a point of ideological principle. Yet at the same time he cannot afford
to develop anything akin to true friendship with any of them (again, whether
he wants to or not) because that would compromise the level of emotional
detachment that the same ideological principle demands. Having friends is
politically incorrect. (And conducting a romantic relationship with anyone
would put him on a fast track to a firing squad, even if only a purely
figurative one in which he had to pull the trigger himself).
Unfortunately, nailing your first and only allegiance to a flag is a good
way of quickly ending up in emotional Coventry, triggering a positive
feedback loop that turns you into a mindless fanatic - emotional isolation
fuels your increasing dedication to the Cause, which in turn induces further
isolation etc. Fortunately for Blake, he's not quite that stupid, but it's
a very slippery tightrope to walk and I think Star One shows him hanging on
by his fingertips.
The problem is further compounded by the way Blake's comitment is primarily
an emotional one - he has to care, albeit in an impersonal, macrosocial way,
in order to be driven in the first place. The ideal revolutionary is placed
in the awkward position of caring passionately about people without being
permitted to give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys about individuals *as*
individuals. From there it's just a short hop to arrogating to oneself the
right to decide what's best for 'the people', whether or not the individual
people want it or not. (Conversely, people throughout history have proved
time and again that they cannot be relied on to to choose what is best for
themselves or society, let alone the ecosphere.) Blake is smart enough to
recognise that arrogance within himself, and to deplore it, but he is then
faced with the problem of reconciling the need to discard that arrogance
with the counter-revolutionary implications of doing so.
Moral: Don't be a revolutionary idealist, it only screws you up. Be a
selfish greedy bastard instead - they always win in the end anyway.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 22:09:46 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II?
Message-ID: <021a01c0107c$e858d9a0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
> The thing that gets me is, how TPTB conclude that people don't want a
> (radio/TV/novel) continuation of a show when, say, the novels don't
> sell, and they think that people don't like the show, when the real
> answer was that the show is still wonderful, but the novels are
> absolutely awful. They think that all they need to do is slap a label
> on it, and it will sell, no matter how crappy it actually is.
I don't think the problem lies so much with TPTB than with the fans
themselves, or rather with what distinguishes the fans from the wider
public. A fan production is, by its very nature, pitched directly at other
fans, and therefore seeks to satisfy the interests of those fans. A
commercial product, OTOH, is implicitly pitched at the general public, and
must therefore accomodate the expectations of said public, which are
generally shallower, looser and less narrowly focused than those of fans.
A fannish story seeks to redefine or reinterpret the source material by
concentrating on certain key elements within that source. In doing so, it
can at least be understood by other fans without necessarily being accepted.
Such redefinition is at its most blatant in such subgenres as AUs or
adult/slash, though it's usually present to at least some degree in almost
any fan story.
A commercial piece, such as a tie-in novel, however, seeks primarily to
reiterate or simply regurgitate the source material, so that it can be
accepted by as many potential purchasers as possible without necessarily
furthering any deeper understanding of the source. Since 'true fans'
(whatever they might be) don't normally constitute a significant percentage
of the potential market, there is no great imperative to pander to their
demands, especially if doing so might alienate a wider - and hence more
profitable - readership. From that it goes without saying that fans should
be kept as far away as possible from the production of any commercial
merchandise.
That's the theory, anyway. Quite how it stands up in practice I can't say,
since I don't buy commercial tie-in fiction. B7 is not exactly brimming
over with examples, and that's the only series I'd show any interest in re
such products. I don't see the theory standing up too well with the DW New
Adventures, but it might with commercial ST fiction.
Neil (using the Bank Holiday weekend to catch up on some recent topics he's
had to let slip)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 22:26:09 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II?
Message-ID: <021b01c0107c$e943d5e0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
> On Mon, Aug 21, 2000 at 12:05:55PM +0200, Jeroen J. Kwast wrote:
> >
> > You call that seriously????? So you want me to believe that you
> > rather have NOTHING than a brand new series bases on the original
> > series with new characters?
>
> > You don't think that it is even remotely possible that those new
> > characters can have some chemistry going too???
>
> Yes. Exactly. Precisely. I'd rather have no B7 than bad B7.
Hear hear! We had enough Bad B7 first time around, no sense in adding to
it.
I would rather have no new 'official' B7 at all. No films, no series, no
radio plays - nothing. As others have said - quite correctly, IMO - one of
the strengths of the series was that it was ultimately closed, contained
within a finite time span and reaching a definite end.
Paradoxically, another of its strengths was that the end wasn't necessarily
The End, but the final episode represents a satisfactory close to an aired
canon that should, again IMO, remain firmly closed.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 22:53:36 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Liberator space travel
Message-ID: <021c01c0107c$ebda1120$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Hellen Paskaleva <hellen_pas@hotmail.com>
> If you imagine the Milky Way projected on a clock, where the Earth is far
> away in "9 o'clock" direction, then Andromeda will be approximately in
"1.30
> o'clock" direction. (Or, in other words, ~30 degrees clockwise from the
> North Pole.) I think.
>
> This places Star One a bit out of the main bulk of stars in the center of
> our Galaxy.
We know that from the episode anyway. What matters is where Star One would
be relative to Andromeda. If it's at 1:30 then the colonised galaxy extends
a fair way along the galactic rim (about one third of the way round from
Earth), and presumably a similar distance in the opposite direction, if
Earth is roughly in the centre. So the colonised region of the galaxy would
extend from about 4:30 round to 1:30, and probably well on the way to
completing the circle. Extensive, if nothing else.
Hmm, maybe I made the ship speeds too *slow*...
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 22:56:31 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II?
Message-ID: <021d01c0107c$ecc50d60$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Dana Shilling <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
> Neil (as either originator of quote or imperative):
> > > But not many Popes have played Avon, though.
> That's what YOU think.
>
> Just wait until I put the snaps from the Vatican Christmas
> party on my Web site. His Holiness looks divine in black
> leather...
And presumably Travis is there as Cardinal Sin.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:06:54 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Liberator space travel
Message-ID: <021e01c0107c$eda6e1e0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
> Neil Faulkner wrote:
>
> > If the Magellanic Clouds are in reach, someone will go there, simply
because
> > they are there.
>
> True enough, but somehow I can't see the Federation bothering...
To prove that they could get there first, in much the same way that the
Soviets scattered little red flags all over the Moon. Prestige and kudos
are powerful motives, however little they achieve in purely practical terms.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:11:20 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Liberator space travel
Message-ID: <021f01c0107c$eed501a0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
> OK, so, except for the Star One glitches (which we know were due to the
> Andromedans, right?), how come nobody on B7 ever seems to make stupid
> computer mistakes? Can you imagine Blake accidentally e-mailing
> Servalan with the plans for his next raid? Well, maybe not, but it's
> easy to imagine Vila hitting the wrong button and doing something like
> that. And the look on Avon's face would be priceless...
Vila goofed with the teleport in Rumours, so screw ups did occur when the
plot demanded it. Stupid computer mistakes like using the CDROM tray as a
cup holder or the mouse as a foot pedal weren't really on the cards because
the writers probably weren't sufficiently computerwise to know about their
potential and even if they were then the audience would never have
appreciated them. How many people had heard of email in 1980? Did the term
even exist back then?
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:20:41 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II?
Message-ID: <022001c0107c$f02c5440$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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From: Sally Manton <smanton@hotmail.com>
> On the subject of actors and their views on their characters, I just
thought
> of something Michael Keating said on one of the tapes about his Vila, that
> he thought Vila rather fancied *Jenna*. This honestly startled me at the
> time, because of the four female crew members, Jenna would be the one I
> would have said Vila showed the *least* interest in (okay, his passes at
> Dayna and Soling were probably in the comfortable expectation that they
> wouldn't take him up on them, but ...)
>
> Does anyone else see what he meant by this?
Who you fancy the most has nothing to do with who you have the best chance
of getting off with. Vila might have preferred Jenna simply because she was
blonde and had big knockers. Personality doesn't have to enter into it.
Sad, maybe, but nevertheless true.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:38:33 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] info request
Message-ID: <022101c0107c$f0e4f5e0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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From: Minnie <minnie@picknowl.com.au>
> I was wondering if someone could tell me what was requested on Scorpio for
> speed?
>
> Is Time distort the proper term?? If so, what was the speed they often
> used to get away from pursuit ships??
I'm not sure any reference was given by one of the crew. Scorpio was
reported to leave Bucol-2 (in Animals) at TD 12, but that reference comes
from a Federation officer reporting to Servalan.
Stardrive gives the speed of the initial space chopper attack (witnessed by
the Scorpio crew) as Standard By 12.6, but Atlan and Plaxton cited
theoretical speeds of Time Distort 12 and 15. But Stardrive is a Follett
episode, and as such need not be taken seriously.
Neil
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 00:15:56 +0100
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] In Praise of Dark and Dysfunctional ... (was: Why Not Blake II?)
Message-ID: <022201c0107c$f297d600$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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Said Sally, re Avon
> There's that rather singular but unshakeable brand of honesty, which
insists
> that he will not (knowingly) lie to himself or about himself
So when he told Tarrant that his name was Shevron and Dayna was his wife, he
really believed he'd got hitched and signed the deed poll whilst teleporting
back up to the Liberator? No lies about himself there, then.
Lying *to* himself is another matter. I think that what Avon wants above
all else is certainty. Unfortunately, one thing he would swiftly become
certain of is that there are rather broad swathes of life where one cannot
be certain. So any emotional insecurity he carries along with him would
come from knowing that the only way to be emotionally secure is to tell
yourself a pack of porkies and believe in them. From that premise, I would
expect him to hold respect for people who had taken the trouble to construct
their own belief system and subject it to rigorous critical analysis, and at
least recognise any potential shortcomings for what they were rather than
sweep them under the carpet. If nothing else, such people would make
satisfying intellectual sparring partners, and Avon enjoys intellectual
sparring. Blake would certainly fit the bill, probably Cally too. Jenna,
OTOH, lacks the backbone to work it for herself, even though she could if
she tried, and Gan even more so ("Another one who's prepared to let Blake do
his thinking for him" - TIme Squad). Vila, perversely, makes the grade by
constructing a belief system that consciously rejects any requirement to
construct any kind of belief system at all, thereby becoming simultaneously
contemptible and enviable, as well as immune to any kind of critical
analysis. Vila embodies a kind of selfish, self-preserving honesty that
Avon can acknowledge without necessarily respecting the essential cowardice
on which it is founded.
Neil, Lyst-clogger extraordinaire for the moment...
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:34:23 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II?
Message-ID: <006a01c0107a$19a25f20$62ac4e0c@dshilling>
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Responding to Sally:
>
> Exactly my point. The argument was that he neither liked nor much cared
> about them as people. Yes, they are the human tools he's been given to
use,
> but that's the exact situation oof *any* commander/leader in any group. It
> doesn't mean he can't care about them *as people* as well. My argument,
> based on the examples, is that a leader who is quite prepared to die or
> suffer for any of them - or who can lose all claim to common sense when
one
> dies (Trial)
I'm not quite sure how to interpret his reaction to Gan's death, which is so
disproportionate to his reaction to the deaths on the London and Cygnus
Alpha--it could be argued that he is indifferent to the latter because he
didn't know them very well personally, or OTOH that he went postal
in the wake of Gan's death because of the cumulative effect.
> Errr ... sorry and all that, exactly how would getting killed on Albian
> along with Avon have accomplished that? How would it have helped the
cause?
> Or stranding himself (*without* thinking to check surface conditions,
> possible danger etc or leaving himself an escape route) on Zil's planet?
I don't know why nobody ever said, "Blake, Zen's information about planetary
conditions (including radiation) simultaneously sucks and blows--let's
buy a !#$$$%^ guidebook instead."
>
> Blake is not stupid. If he dies, the Liberator will probably cease to be
as
> effective a force for the cause
Which is why, in Horizon, he's willing to accept the possibility of Jenna
dying or being seriously damaged--degree of angst depends on which
fanfic you're reading/writing
>But again, if the
> cause overrode the people, he *would* have tried harder to keep Avon in
> Breakdown - he knows he has the influence, he knows he has the
manipulative
> skills, and he knows Avon is valuable. But Avon's free (or as free as
Blake
> can make it) choice comes first - "if he stays, it's got to be for his own
> reasons", not Blake's.
Because this is this list and not the other one, I will merely say that each
of
them is waiting for a declaration which is not forthcoming.
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:56:07 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II? (playing cards)
Message-ID: <006c01c0107a$276bbac0$62ac4e0c@dshilling>
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In response to Ika:
> I've been half-heartedly trying to design (in my head, I can't design for
shit)
> a B7 Tarot deck for ages, but can never decide who would be who - I'm kind
of
> drawn to King of Wands for Blake,
The Chariot, possibly reversed (he never does manage to keep all the forces
in balance)
but then maybe I should save him for one of
> the Major Arcana; Avon usually ends up as the Magician,
King of Swords?
I can definitely see Dayna as Fortitude, ripping open leonine jaws.
Tarrant = Knight of Pentacles?
Servalan = Pope Joan?
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:56:21 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II?
Message-ID: <006d01c0107a$2aa0a700$62ac4e0c@dshilling>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Carol Mc said:
> I listened to the Gareth discussing Blake part of the CD again before my
> friend who owns it left. I don't remember everything word for word, but
he
> never said he didn't like them as people. He said he cared about them as
> people, but they weren't his friends.
Self-proclaimed leaders have to be careful about fraternization.
> I can't say my primary canon agrees with Gareth, but I do find his
viewpoint
> interesting. It's a fascinating intellectual exercise to view the series
> from that perspective: that Blake wasn't friends with his crew.
Sometimes I think about the Morning Line if Orbit had involved a different
combination of people--i.e., Soolin/Vila: 19:1 in six furlongs (i.e., the
race
would be over in about a minute and a half). Blake/Vila?
> Was that a sign of friendship or was that a sign that Blake wasn't
entirely
> rational and practical? Another thing Gareth mentioned was that Blake
became
> a fanatic. A fanatic might be inclined to perform irrational actions,
such
> as staying on Albian despite the danger, and it wouldn't have anything to
do
> with friendship.
Blake ALWAYS at least believes and generally assumes they will all survive,
and as long as he and Avon are both alive, neither of them is willing to
place
in the I Tried to Get Killed for You More Often stakes.
>As a commander, it's helpful and desirable to keep a degree of
> distance.
As a farmer, you don't give a name to anything you're eventually
going to eat, and as a commander, you have to keep some distance
from troops who are not at all unlikely to die.
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 16:59:47 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: B7 Lyst <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Why Not Blake II?
Message-ID: <39A99D63.D2E70BD6@sdc.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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J MacQueen wrote:
> And his good ol' boy's hijacking ships on the sly
> Singing "This may be the day that you die."
>
> Don't get me started...
But I *like* this! Come on, get started. *Pleeeeease*?
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"Imposing Latin rules on English structure is a little
like trying to play baseball in ice skates." -- Bill Bryson
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 00:22:01 +0000
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re:recasting
Message-ID: <39A9B0A8.7F39E503@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Steve Kilbane said: "Anyone reckon Anthony Stewart Head could do Blake?"
Only if Sarah Michelle Gellar could do Jenna and Alyson Hannigan as
Cally.
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson
Redemption: The Blake's 7 and Babylon 5 convention
23-25 February 2001, Ashford, Kent
http://www.smof.com/redemption
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:31:56 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane)
Message-ID: <39A9B260.382A@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> Anyone reckon Anthony Stewart Head could do Blake?
>
> steve
Ah... (yum) I'm not sure if he has quite the *right* sort of presence.
He certainly has presence, but it seems quiet strength and charm rather
than rabble-rousing charisma. Mind, I know him mostly from one role
(Giles), which would fit nicely with an Avon type... I can easily see
him puttering with Sopron or ORACs insides, and then, in fight scenes,
out comes 'Ripper'. But his motivational speeches lack the extorvert
oomph that Blake needs.
James Marston (Spike) isn't really a Cockney; he's from Modesto. To my
ear he deos the accent rather well, but I suppose you Brits can tell me
if it's totally hokey to your ears. Anyone fancy him making a Vila who's
pretty scrumpcious? Or a Travis (#2 style)?
For Blake, Jeremy Northam? He did righteousness quite delightfully in
Emma... remove some of the surpressed hurt lover from that and you get a
good 'Blake tells off his crew'.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:36:23 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Sally's request
Message-ID: <39A9B408.603F@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> > [b] Vila's first driv- errr, flying lesson;
(in script form)
Avon> Ouch!
Vila> Sorry about that, Avon.
Avon> Sorry *isn't* enough. A few more Gs and I would have been
plastered across Zen. That's the last time I let you sit at that
console.
Jenna> That goes for all of us. I'll shoot you if you reach for that
control again.
Blake> A little worse than when you hit that hyperdrive, I think.
Cally> I told you we needed to put him trough de-tox first.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:36:25 +1000
From: "David Henderson" <David.Henderson@jcu.edu.au>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:recasting (from btvs)
Message-ID: <00ba01c01090$6465c4a0$6a3bdb89@lemon.jcu.edu.au>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
>Steve Kilbane said: "Anyone reckon Anthony Stewart Head could do Blake?"
>
>Only if Sarah Michelle Gellar could do Jenna and Alyson Hannigan as
>Cally.
Provided you DONT use David Borenaez as Avon.
later
daveH
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 17:54:02 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: interpretations of Avon
Message-ID: <39A9B82A.1BBE@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> Of course, we could simply put this subtle debate down to this: both
> Mistral and I identify with Avon. She's an INTP, so she thinks Avon
> is an INTP. I'm an INTJ, so I think Avon's an INTJ.
>
> Or we could throw our hands up in the air and say that the writers
> didn't know type theory. (grin)
>
> Kathryn Andersen
Well, I seem to be borderline on J/P, identify with Avon, and I think
he's more 'J' than I am, but then I liked the theory that INTx is a
better category because the J/P function is weak in defining most INT's.
I've heard very good arguements for Avon falling into one category or
the other. Of course, people in general can act in other categories,
they are just most comfortable in the one that suits them best. (Or so
they said at my workplace when they administered Meyers-Briggs)
I am going to get the Keirsey book soon, I swear.
Oh, and here is a cookie for Ika for his profound post. ()
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 09:50:36 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] In Praise of Dark and Dysfunctional ...
Message-ID: <20000828095036.A3286@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sun, Aug 27, 2000 at 04:00:19PM -0600, Betty Ragan wrote:
> Sally Manton wrote:
>
> > There's that rather singular but unshakeable brand of honesty, which
> > insists that he will not (knowingly) lie to himself or about himself
> > - that makes him constantly seek to warn the others, keep them wary
> > of him, keep them from trusting him, but also means that he's
> Hmm. I half-agree and half-disagree with this... "Honesty" is not
> quite the word I would use. If anything, it seems to me that the way
> he warns people off is somewhat *dishonest*: IMHO he (probably quite
> deliberately) exaggerates his own bad qualities, his dangerousness, in
> order to keep people at a distance.
>
> I agree -- I absolutely agree -- that he *does* keep his word, once
> it's given, no matter what, and also that he does feel himself bound
> to live up to others' trust, once they've forced it on him. Again,
> though, I don't see that as having a great deal to do with honesty per
> se. I'm not sure that honesty is something Avon values greatly for
> its own sake. What he *does* have is something that's perhaps better
> described as "loyalty" (although that word somehow doesn't feel quite
> right, either).
I think the word you're searching for is "integrity", which covers
both "honesty" and "loyalty".
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@foobox.net>
/ \ | http://www.foobox.net/~kat
\_.--.*/ | http://jove.prohosting.com/~rubykat
v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 22:19:57 EDT
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] recasting (was Coltrane)
Message-ID: <f5.23ef26a.26db264d@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
At 10:42 AM 8/26/00 +0200, Steve Kilbane wrote:
>Well, if you want to go for a big-but-not-noticably-so guy who you
>wouldn't normally think of as Blake...
>
>(drum roll....)
>
>...Mitch Pileggi.
Ooh I have seen the light! Forget Ralph Fiennes -- Gillian Anderson for
Avon! She's got that withering
How-Do-You-Manage-To-Breathe-Without-Written-Instructions stare right down
to a science.
And the actress who plays Marita Corroborrowhatever as Soolin. Well, I
guess that's not really "against type", is it.
Oh, seconded. Both of them. Gillian Andersen or Alan Rickman for Avon,
Mitch Pileggi will definitely have to dress down for Blake.
Trish
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 23:14:33 -0500
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: [B7L] More frame captures
Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20000827231134.00a93610@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Moving right along... "Sarcophagus" has now been added to the frame capture
library. 202 pictures in this batch.
As always , the library can be found at: http://lcw.simplenet.com/b7lib.html
- Lisa
--
_____________________________________________________________
Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com
Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
From Eroica With Love: http://eroicafans.org/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 14:32:03 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Orac the Great (was Why Not Blake II?)
Message-ID: <F2658ElBnyCjiBX0MBy000005aa@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
>From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
>But I *like* this! Come on, get started. *Pleeeeease*?
You may be sorry...
It's such a long song that I don't have time to work out a number of verses
just now. One verse should do you, at least for now, and that may be too
much for some.
Regards
Joanne
Credit to Dana for 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines of chorus:
Oh why, why on this box to rely?
Built by Ensor
Late of Mensa
But his batt'ries ran dry?
And his good ol' boy's hijacking ships on the sly
Singing "This may be the day that you die,
This may be the day that you die."
Do we know how great you are
And that you can see things from afar?
That's because you tell us so.
Ah, and did you say you see the truth,
Though it seems that all the final proof rests
On the nudge where e'er you want it to go.
Well I know the way to shut you down,
Even though it makes a dreadful sound.
One just pulls out this key,
And then you turn and flee! Wooh!
It takes a will so very, very strong
To override you when you're on.
We may just have to call Avon,
But then there's too much pride
[Here on this flight deck]
Chorus
Why, why, etc.
_________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 07:43:48 +0200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@wish.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re:recasting (from btvs)
Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000828074112.00a80650@pop3.wish.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 03:36 28-8-00, David Henderson wrote:
>From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
>
> >Steve Kilbane said: "Anyone reckon Anthony Stewart Head could do Blake?"
> >
> >Only if Sarah Michelle Gellar could do Jenna and Alyson Hannigan as
> >Cally.
>
>
>Provided you DONT use David Borenaez as Avon.
He could be Travis. His scenes as bad Angel show that he's better at being
bad than he is at being good. And to my eternal shame I must admit that
he'd do even better in the swimsuit competition.
Jacqueline
--------------------------------
End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #242
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