From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #23 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/23 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 23 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] History Re: [B7L] The TRUTH abaout Travis [B7L] Plague (was Killer) Re: [B7L] History [B7L] Remove Re: [B7L] Remove Re: [B7L] Computer animated piccies Re: Star One/Stardrive (was Re: [B7L] History) Re: [B7L] Remove Re: Re: [B7L] Remove Re: Re: [B7L] Remove Re: [B7L] Remove Re: Star One/Stardrive (was Re: [B7L] History) Re: [B7L] Brainwashing (was Mental health & Governments) Re: Re: [B7L] Remove [B7L] History (and morality) Re: Re: [B7L] Remove Re: [B7L] Capchered agane Re: [B7L] Capchered agane Fw: [B7L] Capchered agane [B7L] History Re: [B7L] Capchered agane Re: Fw: [B7L] Capchered agane Re: [B7L] Capchered agane Re: [B7L] History (and morality) Re: [B7L] History Re: [B7L] brainwashing (was Mental health & Governments) [B7L] What a total Burke! [B7L] Re: Sheelagh's B7 Tapes Re: [B7L] Remove Re: [B7L] Remove Re: [B7L] History Re: [B7L] History Re: [B7L] History [B7L] bye for now [B7L] getting off the list Re: [B7L] History Re: Fw: [B7L] Capchered agane ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:41:38 -0000 From: Alison Page To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" Subject: Re: [B7L] History Message-ID: <21B0197931E1D211A26E0008C79F6C4A60C07B@BRAMLEY> Content-Type: text/plain Sally said - >>Ooooh, not only history, but historical semantics, now. I do agree with Una (yes, I can hear you all falling off your chairs in shock) but it raises an interesting (well, to me) point - when and how does rebellion *become* civil war *become* revolution? (The latter, presumably, if it succeeds). The one point we all seem to have argued towards is that, in the B7 universe, there is *no* legitimate authority (if there was in the Federation, it has died. If there was on the individual planets, it has been usurped.) Had Blake's rebellion become a revolution, where would legitimacy have lain then? Does the different title make a difference as to the legitimacy of their actions? And who decides - and when - where the semantic boundaries lie?<< And this to me exposes the whole problem with rule-based morality, it rapidly descends into absurdity, because real life doesn't fall into neat categories. To me - and I know many people will feel very differently - trying to define 'good' and 'bad' in rigid ways is nothing more than a buffer against anxiety. You try (I mean 'one tries') to assure yourself that you are doing the 'right thing' by trying to tie down exactly what is right and wrong, what is true and false. And the more objective-seeming that definition is, the better. I don't think there is any such firm foundation to be had. People simply bumble along. I certainly wouldn't stick to some rule I had thought up earlier if it made me do something I felt was wrong. I certainly wouldn't (let's say I was on the Liberator) betray my colleagues because of some prior definition of what was a 'justified' rebellion, or a 'legitimate authority'. No way. Words are just something made up by people. As Humpty-Dumpty said on the subject of semantics ' The question is - who is to be master' And I notice that Alice was unable to disagree with him :-) Alison ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 11:49:04 -0000 From: "Deborah Day" To: "blakes7" Subject: Re: [B7L] The TRUTH abaout Travis Message-ID: <00c701bf6661$048be0c0$8584bc3e@oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yet another brilliant instalment. How many more does Neil have up his sleeve? (Glad to see he hasn't been wasting his time with anything serious lately!) Molesworth and B7 go together wonderfully - my husband has no time for B7, but has been reading these posts avidly. Keep 'em coming Neil. Debbie Day. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 10:00:16 -0700 From: "Ellynne G." To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Plague (was Killer) Message-ID: <20000124.100020.11990.0.Rilliara@juno.com> For what it's worth, the first science fiction plague story was written by Mary Shelley (this is easy dating if you accept the theory that says Frankenstein was the first science fiction novel). Since it's called The Last Man, you can pretty much guess how it ends. Anyhow, plague stories are nothing new, but AIDS era stories vary from the ones of the few decades before (penicillin era) by having less optimism of a cure. Killer was darker than many, but finding the cure was still taken as a given in the ep. The concern was finding it in time. Ellynne ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 17:18:19 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: "B7 List" Subject: Re: [B7L] History Message-ID: <0d7f01bf668f$0c435900$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Me/Mistral: > > Yet Avon never manages > > to develop the intellectual courage to enable him to make decisions that > > will affect 'many, many people' in order to counter a perceived evil, as > > Blake did. > > Really? Are you discounting his decision at Helotrix that getting > information that might protect both Scorpio's crew and many other > planets was more important than getting involved in the fight for > Helotrix? Ooh, I should imagine I'm discounting that one on the grounds that it probably doesn't fit my facts and I haven't seen 'Traitor' in ages. > Or his efforts to form a league of non-aligned worlds > in order that they might help protect each other? Those decisions > affected 'many, many people'--they just didn't overstep his > authority. (Not that I think he cared about that, mind you. I just > think it goes with the natural detachment of his personality type, > coupled with his experiences.) I think you've just made the point that I was making: Avon doesn't do these things because he's tussling in his mind over the rights and wrongs of resistance, the limits of his personal authority, and whether he has the right to fight - he does these things because he decides they're the best way for him to survive. (Although personally I think it's a little implausible that Avon would decide that bringing down the Federation is the surest way to keep alive: 'I know, I'll just take on the mighty war machine that is the most powerful force in the galaxy! That'll keep me safe!' but that's the fourth season for you. Although I do like the fact that Avon is basically *crap* at being the leader of a rebellion.) I think that the fact that these decisions *do* affect 'many many people' as well as him is mostly incidental. Una ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 12:41:27 -0500 From: "Jim Mooney" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Remove Message-Id: <00Jan24.124128est.115209@cmisint1.city.mississauga.on.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please remove me from your mailing list. Though I enjoyed the series, I'm afraid that I find the banter from this newsgroup to be boring. Thank you. >>> 2000/01/20 9:40:04 pm >>> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:08:56 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Remove Message-ID: <0dd801bf6696$16795080$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Jim Mooney > Please remove me from your mailing list. > > Though I enjoyed the series, I'm afraid that I find the banter from this newsgroup to be boring. > > Thank you. Cripes - that's us told! Never mind, troops, I think you're all super-fascinating and mind-bogglingly brilliant individuals who engage in a constant and life-affirming stream of witty repartee and can I now claim my five pounds? Jim, you might want to try 'uns*bscribe' rather than 'remove'. Una ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:11:58 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Computer animated piccies Message-ID: <000201bf669a$1e07fd20$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Una wrote: > I just had this site brought to my attention: > > http://members.tripod.co.uk/aDziE/album.html > > which is a number of computer generated images of the Liberator in a variety > of scenes. I think it's rather fab. > Much as it pane me to admit she is ... er ... Much as it pains me to admit it, she is right. There are some cracking images on this sight, though I couldn't get some of them to download. How do these people do it? I had a go at building a Liberator with Asymetrix 3df/x (PC Format coverdisc giveaway) and decided it was going to be too much like Bloody Hard Work. No way could I ever hope to match adzie's standard. Yummy! Neil "The only good alien is a dead alien" - Ursula LeGuin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:25:25 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: B7 List Subject: Re: Star One/Stardrive (was Re: [B7L] History) Message-ID: <09SuUIAl7Gj4EwFe@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message <388B775D.92B64155@ptinet.net>, mistral@ptinet.net writes >Well, I'd have said he was saving five; it was the plasma bolt that >would have killed six. And this is part of the difference in how we see Star One - to me choosing not to take an action is itself an action. I think that someone who deliberately opts not to act has to take responsibility for the consequences of not acting just as they would have to take responsibility for the consequences of any other course of action. If Blake, knowing that destroying Star One was the best and possibly the only chance of destroying the Federation, turned away from the opportunity to do so, he would be taking on a small share of complicity in the crimes of the Federation - and those crimes are monstrous. He does not have other options. He has tried the peaceful protest route, as have others, and it does not work. The long slow grind might work, eventually, but that will cause a great deal of death and destruction as well, and there will be drugged slavery for many people for a good deal longer. As for taking over Star One: if he uses it for blackmail, well, does that make him any better than the Federation; if he tries sitting tight for long enough that people have adequate warning to switch to other systems, he might find that he has company. Travis has the location to Star One, and Blake has no idea what Travis intends to do with that information - he might well sell it back to the Federation. And as Blake says in that "Get thee behind me, Satan" scene, that much power would tempt anyone. He doesn't trust himself with it any more than he would trust Servalan with it. -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:36:43 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Remove Message-ID: In message <00Jan24.124128est.115209@cmisint1.city.mississauga.on.ca>, Jim Mooney writes >Please remove me from your mailing list. Use the uns*bscribe word in the subject, not remove. > >Though I enjoyed the series, I'm afraid that I find the banter from this >newsgroup to be boring. Er, it's not a newsgroup... Egad, and we'd been doing some seriously heavy stuff on legitimacy of governments etc... Good thing we hadn't been doing a round of "Is that all Darrow in those red leather trousers". Jim, if you're still here - what did you actually expect to find? -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:06:07 EST From: KKrause658@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Remove Message-ID: <64.2eb801.25bdfc9f@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Julia Jones wrote<< Er, it's not a newsgroup... Egad, and we'd been doing some seriously heavy stuff on legitimacy of governments etc... Good thing we hadn't been doing a round of "Is that all Darrow in those red leather trousers". Jim, if you're still here - what did you actually expect to find?>> Gee!!! As a newbie I was getting really interested in the different discussions! The only reason I didn't get into them was by the time I thought of a rejoinder(SP?) someone had got there before me! I liked the serious along with the totally "out there" of course, I was at first worried when I read Neil's "Avon diaries." But luckily, I'm found out it was a pastiche and not something seriously wrong with Neil. (Well, I am new to this list.) Since My reply to all seems to work, I might be able to join in more often. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:30:24 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Remove Message-ID: <0ed701bf66a1$7897b800$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: > I was at first > worried when I read Neil's "Avon diaries." But luckily, I'm found out it was > a pastiche and not something seriously wrong with Neil. Oh boy, I'm chortling at this end and restraining myself nobly from responding, as I'm sure you can imagine! ;) Welcome aboard! I'm very glad you've chosen to brave that first post - but you didn't put your name? Una ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 14:58:55 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Remove Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000124145803.00d72810@mail.dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed KKrause658@aol.com wrote: >But luckily, I'm found out it was a pastiche and not something seriously >wrong with Neil. Those are not necessarily mutually exclusive propositions, you know. - Lisa -- _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ From Eroica With Love: http://eroica.simplenet.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:12:52 -0000 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: Star One/Stardrive (was Re: [B7L] History) Message-ID: <00c801bf66b2$80254040$72ac01d5@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The thread started talking about Avon "killing" Dr Plaxton in the episode Stardrive. >>Well, I'd have said he was saving five; it was the plasma bolt that >>would have killed six. > Julia Jones then said.... >And this is part of the difference in how we see Star One - to me >choosing not to take an action is itself an action. I think that someone >who deliberately opts not to act has to take responsibility for the >consequences of not acting just as they would have to take >responsibility for the consequences of any other course of action. Exactly so. Indeed although it availed him little in the end, the defence offered by Thomas Moore in the play "A man for all seasons" was that "The maxim of the law is that silence gives consent". Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 21:25:12 -0000 From: "Andrew Ellis" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Brainwashing (was Mental health & Governments) Message-ID: <00c901bf66b2$8185baa0$72ac01d5@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >"Andrew Ellis" wrote: >: Anybody fancy watching all 17 episodes of "The Prisoner" again to add >: another SF dimension to this debate ? Claudia Mastroianni replied.... > >Ha! Just did this earlier this month... almost exactly five years >after the *last* time I watched the whole series. Both times were >marathon viewings... I know some sick people. ;-) > Congratulations. OT. Have you ever tried watching just the 9 or so "core" episodes that were not (elegedly) just padding for the networks ? >The difficulty is, I'm much more inclined to take The Prisoner allegorically >than to read anything it says about brainwashing terribly literally. >What did you have in mind? > Having just put away Collins Concise...... isn't all SciFi meant to be taken allegorically, especially the reflections / amplifications of political systems, mind control etc, made more palatable to the viewer by some unreasonable scientific premise such as teleport and FTL travel ? (or removal of spies to some remote village where everybody agrees to be called by numbers). Andrew ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:42:34 EST From: KKrause658@aol.com To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Remove Message-ID: <86.57bb58.25be214a@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> Uh, are you kidding? maybe later when this has died down. But until then I can be recognized as the one with her mouth wide open and her eyes wide shut, blindly going into the heat of battle! I'm not going into battle of wits against Neil only half armed! Note to self: REALLY read over bulletins before posting! ------------------------------------------------ Oh heck why not, we're among friends(?) Karen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 15:50:12 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] History (and morality) Message-ID: <388CD725.5E0B@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Edmund Burke - 'It is necessary only for the good man to do nothing, for evil to > triumph.' I've always found this quote a little unsettling. Edmund Burke was friends with Thomas Paine and a member of Parliment. That same Parliment put a death sentence on Thomas Paine's head. Why? Trying to use free speech. He asserted that England's interest in declaring war on Revolutionary France was not due to their suddenly love of the French Pre-revolution government, whom England had never been on good terms with, but rather, an economic interest-- many of the members of Parliment had ownership in companies that stood to make large profits from gearing up for war. Burke apparently proved his statement. While he himself appears to have been genuinely appalled by the deaths of innocents under the Terror, what did he do to defend his friend's right to voice his views? Obligatory B7 reference. In contrast, Blake allowed Avon to counter and contradict his own ideas. And, had they been at a big rebel meeting and Avon's mouth angered the others, I'm sure Blake would have defended Avon with his own self if he had to. Right? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:18:00 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: Re: [B7L] Remove Message-ID: <0f7101bf66b8$e2b8f110$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karen! > < you didn't put your name? > > Una>> > > Uh, are you kidding? maybe later when this has died down. I'm afraid this is as calm as it gets! > But until then I can be recognized as the one with her mouth wide open and her eyes > wide shut, blindly going into the heat of battle! I'm not going into battle > of wits against Neil only half armed! > > Note to self: REALLY read over bulletins before posting! > > ------------------------------------------------ > Oh heck why not, we're among friends(?) Or as near as damn it. I'll leave it to someone else to do the tortuous pun on arms, half-witted and Neil, because I'm trying to be nice to him. Una ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:17:42 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane Message-ID: <20000124221742.27139.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "Una McCormack" >But if you can get hold of the books, they're disturbingly similar to >Neil's >versions. I think the same authors perpetrated '1066 and all that' which is >a classic text on history. Hands ought to be thrown at you, Una (yes, I know, and I've been reading Corpse Marker recently, too!). Another double-act altogether perpetrated 1066 and all that (and its sequel And now all this), Seller and Yeatman. But then History is what you remember... Regards Joanne ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 09:21:32 EST From: "Joanne MacQueen" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane Message-ID: <20000124222132.96431.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Julia Jones >I assure you, Neil has the pastiche perfectly. I have to admit I never >thought of Avon as Molesworth, but he is *so* appropriate:-) Er, because he's an interplanetary clot? Regards Joanne (moving away rapidly before Julia the mad maths mistress can muster her rhomboids) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:34:30 -0000 From: "kerry.hale" To: "Lysator List" Subject: Fw: [B7L] Capchered agane Message-ID: <000d01bf66bb$546b5120$a2c628c3@default> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: kerry.hale To: Una McCormack Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 9:53 PM Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Una McCormack > To: > Sent: Monday, January 24, 2000 8:33 AM > Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane > > > > > > Penny wrote: > > > > > At 03:34 PM 23/01/00 -0700, Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > > > > > >BTW< I have no idea what these are based on > > > > > > Oh joy! I thought that (as with the last one...or three...) perhaps I > was > > > the only one in the whole wide world who didn't get the joke! > > > > This should help a little: > > http://www.digiserve.com/mike/html/molesworth.html > > > > But if you can get hold of the books, they're disturbingly similar to > Neil's > > versions. I think the same authors perpetrated '1066 and all that' which > is > > a classic text on history. > > > > > > Una > > --- > > Please do not throw hands at me. > > > The Molesworth books seem very English to me so that I can't imagine that > anyone brought up in a non-English background would appreciate the suptle > humer. > 1066 and all that (again very English) wasn't written by the same pair but > has the same Public School background. It's main tenet is that "History is > not what you thought, it's what you can remember". (That's the B7 link) > > Kerry > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:32:35 -0000 From: "Jonathan Coupe" To: Subject: [B7L] History Message-ID: <008001bf66ba$ea0e0200$4b2c893e@freeserve.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Una wrote: > Yet Avon never manages > to develop the intellectual courage to enable him to make decisions that > will affect 'many, many people' in order to counter a perceived evil, as > Blake did. Oh, but he does. He decided to risk the future of the entire human race to keep the Muller robot intact, despite the advice of Orac. Of course the fact that Tarrant disagreed probably gave him a comfidence boost... Jonathan PS Did anyone notice that there was a competitor called "Orac's Revenge" in last weeks's Robot Wars? (A sort of televised gladiator contest for home built robots shown on BBC2.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:59:37 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane Message-ID: <629dmLBZlNj4Ew1h@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message <20000124222132.96431.qmail@hotmail.com>, Joanne MacQueen writes >(moving away rapidly before Julia the mad maths mistress can muster her >rhomboids) Don't see what you're panicking about. I have never hidden the fact that I think that Avon occasionally needs a swift kick up his delectable little backside. Not so much the clot bit, just the general dyspeptic air... -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:00:48 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: Lysator List Subject: Re: Fw: [B7L] Capchered agane Message-ID: <4mTdCMBgmNj4EwVl@jajones.demon.co.uk> In message <000d01bf66bb$546b5120$a2c628c3@default>, kerry.hale writes >> The Molesworth books seem very English to me so that I can't imagine that >> anyone brought up in a non-English background would appreciate the suptle >> humer. You imagine incorrectly... -- Julia Jones "Have you ever had a fist in your mouth?" "Not in my mouth, no..." Soldiers of Love Part 1 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:41:11 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] Capchered agane Message-ID: <0fce01bf66c0$62a15f00$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joanne and Kerry enlightened me: > >From: "Una McCormack" > >But if you can get hold of the books, they're disturbingly similar to Neil's > >versions. I think the same authors perpetrated '1066 and all that' which is > >a classic text on history. > > Hands ought to be thrown at you, Una (yes, I know, and I've been reading > Corpse Marker recently, too!). Another double-act altogether perpetrated > 1066 and all that (and its sequel And now all this), Seller and Yeatman. Thank you, ladies. Was it the same cartoonist? Why do I have these so firmly associated in my mind? > But then History is what you remember... Hey - I worked that one out years ago! Una ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:13:45 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] History (and morality) Message-ID: <0fef01bf66c0$aeb64cc0$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Helen Krummenacker wrote: > > Edmund Burke - 'It is necessary only for the good man to do nothing, for evil to > > triumph.' > I've always found this quote a little unsettling. And I was tickled to see Burke quoted in the context of justifying rebellion. > Edmund Burke was friends with Thomas Paine and a member of Parliment. > That same Parliment put a death sentence on Thomas Paine's head. Why? > Trying to use free speech. He asserted that England's interest in > declaring war on Revolutionary France was not due to their suddenly love > of the French Pre-revolution government, whom England had never been on > good terms with, but rather, an economic interest-- many of the members > of Parliment had ownership in companies that stood to make large profits > from gearing up for war. > Burke apparently proved his statement. While he himself appears to have > been genuinely appalled by the deaths of innocents under the Terror, > what did he do to defend his friend's right to voice his views? Again, not my period of history, but when did that ever stop me indulging in innuendoes, half-truths, and bald-faced lies, to paraphrase Mr Garak? :) I don't know whether Burke and Paine were friends, so I can't comment on whether there was a personal issue between them. I understand that Paine was charged with sedition, and that he was ultimately outlawed, but I was not aware of a death sentence being passed on him - presumably once he was outlawed he would be subject to the death penalty if he returned to England? I think that I find it a little anachronistic to talk of 'the right to free speech' in terms of late 18th century England, although it's a period in which many people are saying very radical things, and it's a period in which journalism is perhaps more sophisticated than ever before. But you're also talking about a period in which rights theory is only starting to emerge and become formalized. Regardless of the theoretical innovations that are emerging in the US, I should imagine that 'free speech' in England, at least, would have been considered a rather fringe and dangerous idea at the time (again, not a specialist subject - if anyone has done their PhD in the development of the concept of 'free speech' in English society, 1750-1810, then I will happily learn more about it). I wonder whether Paine *did* have the right to speak, in a legal sense, which is presumably what led to his being found guilty of sedition. (Please note! Not saying this is a *good thing*, simply trying to contextualize people's actions and beliefs according to their own society and not our own.) Edmund Burke's primary passion was for tradition and the rule of law, and he passionately despised the type of radicalism which was emerging in the wake of the French Revolution and which he perceived threatened the stability of society, and which was espoused by Paine, Price, Wollstonecraft et al. (this is why I find it difficult to believe that Burke and Paine were close friends, but I don't know the biographies of the two men in any detail, so I'm prepared to stand corrected. Wollstonecraft, at least, loathed Burke). It's important to remember just how shocking Burke found the events and ramifications of the French Revolution (I think it goes well, well beyond 'genuinely appalled'), and how profoundly he believed it threatened what he perceived to be 'the natural order' of society and tradition. In this context, I should imagine that Burke's exhortation for good men not to stand by is to encourage them to rally against radicalism and revolution and protect their traditions and the rule of law. Which he did, repeatedly, throughout his career. Paine is a coda in English political theory, although I do appreciate that his stature is considerably greater in American political theory. Burke remains one of the key authors on English conservatism right up to the present day. Both men passionately believed in what they said, but I also think that *both* men managed to remain self-consistent to their own beliefs, insofar as anyone does. > Obligatory B7 reference. Yeah, I'd better get to that too! > In contrast, Blake allowed Avon to counter and contradict his own ideas. > And, had they been at a big rebel meeting and Avon's mouth angered the > others, I'm sure Blake would have defended Avon with his own self if he > had to. Right? I'd probably see Avon more in the Burke role and Blake in the Paine role, myself :) Una ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:19:27 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] History Message-ID: <101001bf66c1$776740c0$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan wrote: > Una wrote: > > > Yet Avon never manages > > to develop the intellectual courage to enable him to make decisions that > > will affect 'many, many people' in order to counter a perceived evil, as > > Blake did. > > Oh, but he does. He decided to risk the future of the entire human race to > keep the Muller robot intact, despite the advice of Orac. Of course the fact > that Tarrant disagreed probably gave him a comfidence boost... Although I do think there's a difference between taking an action which you know for certain *will* harm 'many many people' (e.g. Blake and Star One) and pursuing a course which has the potential to harm said 'many many people' (TM) (e.g. keeping a robot about which might, possibly, at some point go bonkers and try to take over the universe). Did I mention I'd trademarked the phrase 'many many people'? You all have to pay me a fiver everytime you use it from now on. Actually, I was thinking of looking into the possibility of retroactive charges, so this whole debate may have proved very profitable for me. Una ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:39:12 -0700 From: Penny Dreadful To: "lysator" Subject: Re: [B7L] brainwashing (was Mental health & Governments) Message-Id: <4.1.20000124161447.0093ac90@mail.powersurfr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:15 PM 23/01/00 +0000, Alison Page wrote: >There's some stuff in William Burroughs about all this. In our next 'pastiche', Blake and pals visit Enozretni-13, the Not-So-Secret Planet of the Milk-Fed Space-Cadets. Nauseating hijinks aplenty ensue! Sadly it all ends badly when Avon attempts to impress Vila by shooting a glass of Adrenaline-and-Soma(tm) off of Blake's head from the other side of the flight deck, while blindfolded and falling-down drunk. He takes careful aim and is about to fire when suddenly, boom, they are all hit by a big truck. John Waters directs. -- For A Dread Time, Call Penny: http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:37:18 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: [B7L] What a total Burke! Message-ID: <104701bf66c3$f5d8b860$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Incidentally, re: Burke - I've spotted my first historical gaffe. I constantly refer to England and the English - Burke was, of course, an Irishman. Big bag of sweeties to anyone who comes up with Five Great Historical Inaccuracies in my last post, not including that one. Una ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 18:40:10 -0800 From: Susie Wright To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Sheelagh's B7 Tapes Message-ID: <388D0D0A.ECD00395@home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry, it'll be more like May or June... she said "late spring 2000." Still....hooray! Susie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 20:53:21 -0600 From: "huh" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Remove Message-ID: <00f001bf66df$579cd7a0$1d64e0d1@huh> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ) > Cripes - that's us told! > > Never mind, troops, I think you're all super-fascinating and mind-bogglingly > brilliant individuals who engage in a constant and life-affirming stream of > witty repartee and can I now claim my five pounds? > > Jim, you might want to try 'uns*bscribe' rather than 'remove'. > > > Una Ah, but then he wouldn't have been able to get in the zinger about how boring we are.Makes all the difference in the world, really. Although I don't post, I do in fact think that you're all super-fascinating and mind-bogglingly brilliant individuals, etc... or at least remarkably witty much of the time. lisabeth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 19:15:26 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Remove Message-ID: <388D154D.4BC16A60@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit huh wrote: > Although I > don't post, I do in fact think that you're all super-fascinating and > mind-bogglingly brilliant individuals, etc... or at least remarkably witty > much of the time. And we all think the same, lisabeth. Ooh. No! No! What I mean to say is, we all think the same of *you*. Mistral ;-) -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 16:48:20 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] History Message-ID: <388CF2D3.615526C7@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Una wrote (re Avon): > I think that the fact that these decisions *do* affect 'many many people' as > well as him is mostly incidental. Sure, Una. Must be the cynic in me that thinks that's true of Blake as well . Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 06:23:20 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: "B7 List" Subject: Re: [B7L] History Message-ID: <10ed01bf66fc$aed687b0$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mistral wrote: > Una wrote (re Avon): > > > I think that the fact that these decisions *do* affect 'many many people' as > > well as him is mostly incidental. > > Sure, Una. Must be the cynic in me that thinks that's true of > Blake as well . Oh, I think Blake chooses to make decisions on behalf of other people quite intentionally. Una ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 23:08:27 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] History Message-ID: <388D4BEB.1ABDD7C5@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Una McCormack wrote: > > > I think that the fact that these decisions *do* affect 'many many > people' as > > > well as him is mostly incidental. > > > > Sure, Una. Must be the cynic in me that thinks that's true of > > Blake as well . > > Oh, I think Blake chooses to make decisions on behalf of other people quite > intentionally. Ah. Yes. What I should have said, though, is that I don't think his motives are as entirely altruistic as is sometimes represented, particularly when discussing Star One. From Spacefall to Star One, mostly what we hear from him strikes me more as vendetta. Plus, of course, I don't in the least admire making decisions on behalf of other people you're not responsible for. Whether Avon avoids that particular gaffe because of self-restraint or selfishness makes very little difference to me; and if that makes me as cold as our favorite computer analyst, well, I'm in good company. It's a pity I don't have some of his other admirable traits as well. ;-) Mistral -- "Who do you serve? And who do you trust?" --Galen, 'Crusade' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:19:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] bye for now Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I'm having to unsub for a while - the fingers are too painful to type any more. I hope to be back when they recover. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:21:57 +0000 (GMT) From: Judith Proctor To: Lysator List Subject: [B7L] getting off the list Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII for people who join the list and can't remember how to get off again, it may be worth remembering that I always keep the instructions on my web site in the fan clubs section. Judith -- http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs, pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight ) Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:10:45 +0000 (GMT) From: Iain Coleman To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] History Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, Una McCormack wrote: > Did I mention I'd trademarked the phrase 'many many people'? You all have to > pay me a fiver everytime you use it from now on. Actually, I was thinking of > looking into the possibility of retroactive charges, so this whole debate > may have proved very profitable for me. Fair enough. By the way, did I mention I trademarked "Una" in 1985? Iain ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 00:05:07 +1100 From: Joanne To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: Fw: [B7L] Capchered agane Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit >In message <000d01bf66bb$546b5120$a2c628c3@default>, kerry.hale > writes >>> The Molesworth books seem very English to me so that I can't imagine that >>> anyone brought up in a non-English background would appreciate the suptle >>> humer. > >You imagine incorrectly... Definitely. I'm Australian and I've owned (and loved) the Molesworth and St Trinian books for years. Very silly and extremely funny. Joanne ‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚ Because I love it. It takes me to the stars, to the moon, on any journey I can imagine. Any place but here ... Cyrano de Bergerac ‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚‚ÄÄ -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #23 *************************************