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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 221
Today's Topics:
Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
Re: [B7L] Model of Servalan. [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit} [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
Re: [B7L] Pressure Point [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
[B7L] Thought and Slave [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
Re: [B7L] Pressure Point [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
Re: [B7L] Pressure Point [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ]
Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit} [ Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@w ]
Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking [ Steve Kilbane <steve@whitecrow.demo ]
Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking [ Steve Kilbane <steve@whitecrow.demo ]
[B7L] models [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ]
Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking [ Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com ]
[B7L] scanner/B7 [ Alison Page <alison_page@becta.org. ]
Re: [B7L] Pressure Point [ "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect. ]
RE: [B7L] Slave and Thinking [ Louise Rutter <Louise.Rutter@btinte ]
Re: [B7L] Pressure Point [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
Re: [B7L] Pressure Point [ "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl> ]
Re: [B7L] Pressure Point [ B7Morrigan@aol.com ]
Re: [B7L] Orbit [ Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk> ]
Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit} [ "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btin ]
Re: [B7L] Thought and Slave [ "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btin ]
Re: [B7L] Orbit [ "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btin ]
Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking [ Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@comp ]
Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking [ "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.de ]
Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking [ Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@power ]
Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking [ Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> ]
Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking [ "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com ]
Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking [ "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com> ]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:00:51 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking
Message-ID: <20000803.195247.-96115.0.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Thu, 03 Aug 2000 17:57:23 -0600 Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> writes:
> Um, drifting a bit from B7 here... OK, what do people think about
> Vinni? Or the Avalon android? They both seem to have passed the
> Turing
> test...
>
Let's see, Vinni successfully passed himself off as a narcissic jock with
an ego largely than Avon's and Servalan's combined (or should I say
multiplied? Or Avon's raised by a power of Servalan's? Anyway, really,
really big). What does that have to do with sentience? (OK, it was the
obvious joke, but somebody had to make it).
Ellynne
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:04:52 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Model of Servalan.
Message-ID: <20000803.195247.-96115.1.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Thu, 03 Aug 2000 17:51:00 -0600 Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> writes:
> Sally Manton wrote:
>
> > <grin> whereas the Soolin model will be much more simple. We can
> have any
> > colour outfit we like as long as it's grey ...
>
> But you could do Soolin with interchangeable hairstyles... Package
> her
> with a comb and some bobby pins or whatever, like they do with some
> Barbie dolls... :)
>
C'mon, there are affordability factors in question here!
We're creative souls. Just make her bald....
Ellynne (who is remembering some interesting bits about hair and social
hierarchy that could reverse tables if Servalan and Soolin ever fell
through the right timewarp but it trying very hard to think of something
else. Snape as Avon's long lost father, maybe....)
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:20:10 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit}
Message-ID: <20000803.195247.-96115.2.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Sat, 5 Aug 2000 22:53:44 +0100 "Andrew Ellis"
<Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com> writes:
>
> OK, give me an example of how the liberator might travel FTL,
> without going
> to far beyond AU physics (and while you are at it, define AU
> physics).
>
Personally, I have always held with those who say the Liberator travels
FTL in the following way (this explanation is somewhat complex but can be
rewarding once properly understood, so bear with me):
_ZIP!!!_
Now, I know there are other factions, the _WHIZ!!!_ fanatics and the
_ZING!!!_ believers. There's also the Rationalist Apostate Techno
Scientists (better known as RATS) who insist all space flight must be
perfectly silent. However, I remain convinced that _ZIP!!!_ remains the
only rational solution and defy anyone to prove otherwise.
Ellynne
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:41:36 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Pressure Point
Message-ID: <20000803.195247.-96115.4.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 20:00:57 +0200 "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
writes:
> But isn't B7 supposed to be situated a thousand years into the
> future? By
> that time the human body may well have developed some cavity for
> carrying
> things. :-)
>
Well, not through normal evolution and adaptation. No, this is a clear
case of genetic engineering, probably resulting in the little talked
about 'fashion wars' in which all purses were done away but rebelious
souls adapted. This is the _real_ reason Servalan never carries a purse
or credit card (That, and her desire to make it clearly understood she's
not _paying_ for anything [Oh, no, I have just made an argument for Blake
and all other good, little rebels to carry overly cute handbags as a
political statement. "So, Avon, which do you think really says 'I'm a
tough, nonconformist. Don't mess with me.'? The pink one with the pearl
snap or the little macrame number with the glittery beadwork?"]).
Ellynne
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:33:27 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Thought and Slave
Message-ID: <20000803.195247.-96115.3.rilliara@juno.com>
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First, Slave could comment on thought being beyond his capacity just as I
can comment on certain intellectual challenges that I admit are
completely beyond me (hmm, but _would_ I ever admit to such a thing?
[Checks ego] Oh, well, in _theory_, then). Egos aside, a color blind
person probably has a fair grasp of what color is in theory (it's like
that white-gray-black division, only more so).
Second, there was a cartoon I remember seeing about the difference
between the capacity for thought and the capacity to think about it. A
philosophy major is walking his dog, thinking "I think, therefore I am."
The dog is thinking, "Bow wow, bow wow."
So, Slave could have made the comment about thought as a programmed
response.
Slave could have been pulling the cringing slave thing again.
Tarrant's comment could have triggered Slave to amke an automatic
comparison against the file specs it had on human thought capacity vs the
pertinent paragraph in its own owner's manual.
Or, your right, Slave could have offered an opinion that could only be
formed through a capacity it claimed not to have.
Ellynne
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 19:45:52 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Pressure Point
Message-ID: <20000803.195247.-96115.5.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Thu, 3 Aug 2000 10:52:59 -0400 "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect.com>
writes:
> Marian de Haan wrote :
>
> > What I find much harder to swallow is that Avon is still prepared
> to go on
> > with the mission when it has become clear that something is wrong
> ("He's
> > failed to make contact with Kasabi.") and Blake is holding back
> information.
>
> I think Avon saw it as a major challenge to his computer skills - he
> mentions in the episode that he's the only one qualified to tackle
> the
> defense computers. Maybe he also had a secondary motive. Given
> some time
> with Control (while the others kept guard) he could have done
> anything.
> Transferred millions of credits, had Space Command self-destruct,
> stolen all
> sorts of secret information - all to give him more of an advantage
> when he
> takes control of the Liberator. Maybe this is enough to override
> his
> feelings that this is a trap.
>
I KNOW this has been done to death, but I suddenly saw another difference
between Pressure Point and Star One:
The inclusion of Avon for his _technical_ abilities suggests this was
originally planned as a more technical attack (planned being used a
little loosely, I know). By Star One (where, ironically, it might be
easier to plan a programmin attack), they have (for unspecified reasons)
decided on a more bomb oriented approach.
Ellynne
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2000 21:41:25 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Pressure Point
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0803204125-ab5Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Thu 03 Aug, Dana Shilling wrote:
> Responding to Judith:
> > I always had the impression that sabotaging the computers was more what
> they had
> > in mind - that's why Avon felt that Blake would need him along. I don't
> think
> > they had any explosives on them at this point.
> But as City at the Edge of the World shows us, resourceful crewmembers may
> be in possession of explosives not only when we didn't see them bring any,
> but
> when they don't have anyplace to carry them.
Ah <grin>, it's only Dayna who can do that.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 08:28:12 +0200
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <inquisitioner@wish.net>
To: <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit}
Message-Id: <4.3.1.0.20000804082557.00a83100@pop3.wish.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
At 23:44 5-8-00, Gnog wrote:
>(role call, who made it to the end ?)
Me, but I blanked out a couple of times. Well, actually more than a couple.
Through most of it would be more accurate.
Jacqueline
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 23:38:56 +0200
From: Steve Kilbane <steve@whitecrow.demon.co.uk>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking
Message-Id: <200008032238.XAA03539@whitecrow.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Iain:
> I don't agree with your assessment of the Turing test, Alison. I think
> it's a clever way of sidestepping the extremely difficult problem of
> defining intelligence in general.
Absolutely.
> We may not know what intelligence is, in
> any rigorous sense, but we happily ascribe intelligence and self-awareness
> to human beings. The Turing test simply says that any machine that can
> appear intelligent in the same way that a human does should be considered
> intelligent.
Hmm. Herein there lies a slight problem of terminology, in that something
(or someone) can be senient, but also thick as two planks. :-)
> I also think that you're underestimating how hard it is to simply program
> a machine to mimic human responses.
Yes and no.
On the one hand, it's difficult to write something which is generally
knowledgable, in the way a person is. On the other hand, natural-language
parsing is good enough that conversations on a specific target area can
appear quite convincing. Question is, are you on the lookout for software?
If you're testing, then asking for things which involve general knowledge
("what do you think of Paul Daniels?"), humour ("two blokes go into a pub..."),
or personal interpretation ("why?") will hit stonewalling code that tries to
get you to talk instead.
But if you're already expecting to be talking to a person, and there's no
initial reason to expect an AI, you'll probably be fooled into thinking that
you're just talking to an obtuse git. It's happened in the past.
Thing is (getting back on topic), is awareness *good* in something like
Slave or Zen, which has a very defined function in life? These are not
systems that should really be having opinions. They should have predictable
behaviour patterns, albeit complex ones. Compare Gan and his limiter to
Zen and his restriction from "getting involved".
steve
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 03 Aug 2000 23:19:31 +0200
From: Steve Kilbane <steve@whitecrow.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking
Message-Id: <200008032219.XAA03067@whitecrow.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Una:
> Have people ever done the Turing test and failed it?
Oh yes. Me.
Back in Uni, I wrote and ran a MUD. Had mobiles (autonomous characters)
wandering around, and they got "smarter" as I observed how people were
outwitting them, and programmed them to avoid those tactics.
In one particular pitched battle, one player was soundly defeated by one
of these mobiles. He claimed it was unfair, because he couldn't type as
fast as the controlling program.
Except in this case, I was controlling the mobile manually. It's just that
I could type faster. :-)
steve
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 08:00:23 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] models
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0804070023-313Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
I'll be off-list for the next week, so if you want anything important to reach
me, send it to me off-list.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 07:37:55 +0100 (BST)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.com>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0804063755-d07Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
On Fri 04 Aug, Betty Ragan wrote:
> Um, drifting a bit from B7 here... OK, what do people think about
> Vinni? Or the Avalon android? They both seem to have passed the Turing
> test...
The reason Chevner was killed was becasue he knew the real Avalon. It thus
seems likely that the android would not have stood up under prolonged
interaction.
Vinni was far more advanced. It thought it was human. I wondered if they'd
found a way of using a human brain print and mapping it onto the android.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.knightwriter.org )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:07:38 +0100
From: Alison Page <alison_page@becta.org.uk>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] scanner/B7
Message-ID: <21B0197931E1D211A26E0008C79F6C4AB0C6CF@BRAMLEY>
Content-Type: text/plain
I'm at work so I can't quote your email Julia, but I was interested in your
comments on the similarity between 'through a scanner darkly' and B7. Do you
want to say more?
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 10:30:00 -0400
From: "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect.com>
To: "B7 Mailing List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Pressure Point
Message-ID: <00b801bffe20$8bd0f8c0$870b9ad8@cgorman>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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From: Judith Proctor added
> On Thu 03 Aug, Dana Shilling wrote:
> > Responding to Judith:
> > > I always had the impression that sabotaging the computers was more
what
> > they had
> > > in mind - that's why Avon felt that Blake would need him along. I
don't
> > think
> > > they had any explosives on them at this point.
> > But as City at the Edge of the World shows us, resourceful crewmembers
may
> > be in possession of explosives not only when we didn't see them bring
any,
> > but
> > when they don't have anyplace to carry them.
>
> Ah <grin>, it's only Dayna who can do that.
Or it depends on how big the explosive was, and how good the little known
Liberator's proctologist's room was. I bet they all hoped Zen's
instructions were perfect for those operations! <g>
Steve Dobson.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 18:13:10 +-100
From: Louise Rutter <Louise.Rutter@btinternet.com>
To: 'B7 Lysator' <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: RE: [B7L] Slave and Thinking
Message-ID: <01BFFE40.14DF3E00@host62-7-21-3.btinternet.com>
Judith wrote:
>The reason Chevner was killed was becasue he knew the real Avalon. It
>thus seems likely that the android would not have stood up under
>prolonged interaction.
>Vinni was far more advanced. It thought it was human. I wondered if
>they'd found a way of using a human brain print and mapping it onto the
>android.
I don't think the Vinni android was necessarily more advanced, just
programmed for different things. The Avalon android did stand up to
prolonged conversations - Cally said she'd talked to her about her reasons
for starting rebellion. The Avalon android would only be caught out by
someone who knew the real Avalon well and would pick up subtle differences.
The Avalon android knew that it was an android and was programmed to detect
suspicion.
I suspect Vinni was not actually supposed to be a real, living person but
was created from scratch, so that nobody could detect those little signs.
There was no need for the Vinni android to be programmed to kill anyone
suspicious of it, it was easier to have it believe it was human.
Louise
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 19:47:52 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: "Lysator List" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Pressure Point
Message-ID: <004201bffe3c$1d47c980$8fee72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Dana:
>> But as City at the Edge of the World shows us, resourceful crewmembers
may be in possession of explosives not only when we didn't see them bring
any, but when they don't have anyplace to carry them.<<
Judith:
>Ah <grin>, it's only Dayna who can do that.<
But Avon can do it with guns and cutting tools. [He must have learnt that
trick from Sara in Mission to Destiny - remember that *big* gun? :-) ]
Marian
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 19:54:20 +0200
From: "Marian de Haan" <maya@multiweb.nl>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>, "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Pressure Point
Message-ID: <004901bffe3d$0b6b3a20$8fee72c3@marian-de-haan.multiweb.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Ellynne wrote:
>I KNOW this has been done to death, but I suddenly saw another difference
between Pressure Point and Star One: The inclusion of Avon for his
_technical_ abilities suggests this was originally planned as a more
technical attack (planned being used a
little loosely, I know). By Star One (where, ironically, it might be
easier to plan a programmin attack), they have (for unspecified reasons)
decided on a more bomb oriented approach.<
By Star One the producers must have caught on that Avon looks more heroic
waving explosives about than poking into computers with a laser probe. :-)
Marian
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 14:19:07 EDT
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Pressure Point
Message-ID: <92.84bf0a2.26bc631b@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Ellynne wrote:
> >I KNOW this has been done to death, but I suddenly saw another difference
> between Pressure Point and Star One: The inclusion of Avon for his
> _technical_ abilities suggests this was originally planned as a more
> technical attack (planned being used a
> little loosely, I know). By Star One (where, ironically, it might be
> easier to plan a programmin attack), they have (for unspecified reasons)
> decided on a more bomb oriented approach.<
>
Marian
> By Star One the producers must have caught on that Avon looks more heroic
> waving explosives about than poking into computers with a laser probe. :-)
>
For shame, Marian. Avon looks wonderful doing anything. The real reason
they decided on a bomb approach was Blake. I quote, from "Star One"
"I meant what I said on Goth, Avon. We are not going to use Star One to rule
the Federation, we are going to destroy it."
IIRC, he was afraid that absolute power corrupts absolutely and that giving
that type of power to _anyone_ would just replace one oppressive regime with
another. Thus, destroy Star One instead of adjusting its programming.
Morrigan
"When I get a little money I buy zines; and if any is left I buy food and
clothes."
(apologies to Erasmus)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 19:52:18 GMT
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Orbit
Message-Id: <200008041857.TAA14639@smtp.uk2net.com>
> Gnog:
> > 5 years later, Servalan finally traces Avon and arrives at XK-72
> accompanied
> > by the 5th legion, a modest escort for the only galactic president to ever
> > leave the solar system. Egrorian traces her movements and tests his funnel.
>
Morrigan:
> That's a lovely little story Gnog.
Hear hear!
> BTW, Servalan left the solar system fairly regularly. In fact, I'm not even
> sure that Space Command HQ (the doughnut as Ika calls it) was even in the
> same solar system as Earth.
>
Actually, that's something that's always interested me. What is she doing in
S3? Is she still head of Space Command (I think she is IIRC, but in S1-2 the
President was someone different - though I guess she learned from her own
example in Star One)? How much time does she spend on Earth and how much on the
doughnut?
And why are the rooms she's in in 'Harvest', when she appears to be on the
doughnut (correct me if I'm wrong) so much smaller than the doughnut rooms are
in 'Trial', 'Star One' etc?
Love,
Ika
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Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 21:54:19 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Parsec {was Orbit}
Message-ID: <005301bffff3$f64f6f40$d041073e@leanet>
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Ellynne
>>
>Personally, I have always held with those who say the Liberator travels
>FTL in the following way (this explanation is somewhat complex but can be
>rewarding once properly understood, so bear with me):
>
>_ZIP!!!_
>
>Now, I know there are other factions, the _WHIZ!!!_ fanatics and the
>_ZING!!!_ believers. There's also the Rationalist Apostate Techno
>Scientists (better known as RATS) who insist all space flight must be
>perfectly silent. However, I remain convinced that _ZIP!!!_ remains the
>only rational solution and defy anyone to prove otherwise.
Sorry, I'm going to have to quote scientific evidence here in order to
refine your rather simplistic theory. In both Redemption and Ultraworld
there was definitely a component of
_ROAR !!!!! _ WHOOSH !!!_
Before the
_ZIP!!!_
and I'm afraid the only mathematical transition from a WHOOSH to FTL travel
necessitates passing through a psychic boom
_GOSH!!!_
and finally onto the continuum (which doesn't really appear in print very
well)
_ZIP!ooooooh!!_
But _ZIP!!!_ is a very good empirical approximation to work with.
Gnog
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 22:00:33 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Thought and Slave
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Or if Slave was fitted with AI capacity, "he" could have developed his
programming by the episode Blake, being exposed to the more suitable
external stimulus of Villa, Tarrant and Dayna, rather than the cold and
computer like Dorian, Soolin and Avon. Even towards the end, he judged it
best to retain the semblance of his old configuration in the presence of
Avon and Orac (who had the power, and by Slaves judgement, the inclination,
to do him some harm), but once they were gone, allowed his newly developing
"human" personality to show.
After all, how many 2 day old babies have you met that pass the Turing test
?
Gnog
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2000 22:05:46 +0100
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Orbit
Message-ID: <005501bffff3$f880f540$d041073e@leanet>
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>
>And why are the rooms she's in in 'Harvest', when she appears to be on the
>doughnut (correct me if I'm wrong) so much smaller than the doughnut rooms
are
>in 'Trial', 'Star One' etc?
>
I always imagined that she was on the ugly looking Platypus shaped
Federation cruiser in Harvest, not the doughnut. Just MHO.
Gnog
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Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 18:51:09 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking
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Alison wrote:
>Then it occurred to me that Slave's motive might =
>be the same as it is for people who don't like to =
>offer an opinion. People who feel powerless, who
>lack confidence, and who expect that they won't be
> listened to, often seem to shut down that whole =
>side of their character.
Oh, that's why I like Slave! I thought it was just the subversive sense =
of
humour.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 5 Aug 2000 00:13:43 +0100
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking
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Harriet said -
>>I thought it was just the subversive sense of humour.
Hmmm come to think of it, that's what I generally think too.
Does that make Slave almost a malevolent creature? He could help them out
more, but he doesn't. He could come out with vital information in a less
roundabout way, but it amuses him to act servile.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:35:46 -0600
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking
Message-Id: <4.1.20000804173217.00945100@mail.powersurfr.com>
Message-Id: <4.1.20000804173217.00945100@mail.powersurfr.com>
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At 12:13 AM 8/5/00 +0100, Alison Page wrote:
>Does that make Slave almost a malevolent creature? He could help them out
>more, but he doesn't. He could come out with vital information in a less
>roundabout way, but it amuses him to act servile.
"Passive-aggressive".
--
For A Dread Time, Call Penny:
http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:52:20 -0600
From: Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org>
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking
Message-ID: <398B5734.4A62792D@sdc.org>
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Judith Proctor wrote:
> The reason Chevner was killed was becasue he knew the real Avalon. It thus
> seems likely that the android would not have stood up under prolonged
> interaction.
Yes, but it failed on Chevner not (as far as we know) because he tumbled
to the fact that it wasn't human, but because it he knew Avalon
*personally* and it wasn't behaving like her. The Turing test is about
mimicking humans in general, not one human in particular, and the Avalon
droid passed that one with flying colors. Cally apparently had a nice
long talk with it and never suspected.
> Vinni was far more advanced. It thought it was human. I wondered if they'd
> found a way of using a human brain print and mapping it onto the android.
Doesn't sound too far-fetched to me. In fact, they seemed to be doing
something vaguely like that with Avalon.
--
Betty Ragan ** ragan@sdc.org ** http://www.sdc.org/~ragan/
"Imposing Latin rules on English structure is a little
like trying to play baseball in ice skates." -- Bill Bryson
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 05 Aug 2000 01:53:47 GMT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking
Message-ID: <LAW-F200sXv92A0RKtQ0001014c@hotmail.com>
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Re Slave, Alison wrote:
<Does that make Slave almost a malevolent creature? He could help them out
more, but he doesn't. He could come out with vital information in a less
roundabout way, but it amuses him to act servile.>
Well, I have to admit that I found the ripping off of Uriah Heep sooooo
blatant that I spent the whole 4th series waiting for Slave to turn on them
all (which would have made for a not-half-bad episode, maybe).
________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 4 Aug 2000 22:01:45 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Slave and Thinking
Message-ID: <20000804.220149.-86527.0.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Fri, 04 Aug 2000 17:52:20 -0600 Betty Ragan <ragan@sdc.org> writes:
> . The Turing test is
> about
> mimicking humans in general, not one human in particular, and the
> Avalon
> droid passed that one with flying colors. Cally apparently had a
> nice
> long talk with it and never suspected.
>
Er, yes, but one could always argue that, at this point, Cally might
still be hard pressed to tell normal human responses from a machine's,
what with lack of experience and hanging out with Avon (whose goal, after
all, is to _fail_ the Turing test).
> > Vinni was far more advanced. It thought it was human. I wondered
> if they'd
> > found a way of using a human brain print and mapping it onto the
> android.
>
> Doesn't sound too far-fetched to me. In fact, they seemed to be
> doing
> something vaguely like that with Avalon.
>
Having deja vu on a Cordwainer Smith story called the "The Dead Lady of
Clown Street." An AI with the brain imprint of a dead woman asks, when
explaining her origins, whether she's herself or not (she apparently has
mixed views on the matter but, overall, feels she's not the person she
used to be [other characters agree, pointing out she wouldn't be helping
them with their survival/revolution if she were]).
Come to think of it, Lord Jestecost in Smith's fiction could be compared
to Avon. Sort of. I think the line that best describes him goes
something like "Two hundred years of knowing he was right and being
outvoted had left him with a passionate desire to get things done his own
way." Also had a tragic little bit of true love, come to think of it.
Oh, and his name meant cruelty, as explained in "Dead Lady."
I am suddenly seeing B7 as a Smith story. Soolin was really S'lin, one
of the biologically enhanced to appear human snake people, the most
deadly assasin/guards around (no hair, so she really _does_ have a wig
collection (or scalps...).
C'ally could be a relative of C'amille (a cat). Extra plot complications
since they had strict laws about that kind getting romantically involved
with humans. I smell angst potential.
D'el Tarrant would be one of the dog people (extremely loyal and a good
defender).
Vila would make such a good turtle person (you know what turtles do when
they're scared), that I'm wondering what to do with his name. Hmm.
There were Underpeople (as the modified animals are called) who go into
hiding rather than show up for euthanasia when they are deemed no longer
useful. They don't always use animal names, so maybe Vila's one of them
and this is the real reason he never uses Restal. It's too close to
T'restal (a joke on his earthly origins or perhaps a comment on whatever
duties he was originally bred for). This also explains why he pretends
to be less intelligent than he is. Underpeople do that to defuse human
hostility.
Dayna's too arrogant to be anything but a human (or modified hominid with
weapons pouch). In fact, she's probably related to the killing prone
Lord Redlady (don't ask).
Jenna _could_ be D'jenna (joke on Djinni?) but I don't see it. She
doesn't have the doggy personality. Besides, Smith spoke Chinese and
would have got mileage out of her name meaning "is it true?"
On the Federation side, S'ervalan only having one name and very, very
short hair is explained (she probably has to go to great length to keep
her origins hidden, though). So is her using Auron to reproduce. The
snake people were considered too deadly to be allowed the ability to
self-perpetuate.
Travis probably _should_ be a human. He _doesn't_ go into hiding during
stress. But he does have a shell on half of him. T'ravis. Ravis,
ravish, ravage, raving. I see possibilities here. Come to think of it,
if the original Travis really died and his brain print was implanted on a
turtle person....
Carnell has to be an android with a brain print, ironically named flesh.
True machines were the only things in Smith's universe with full
prediction abilities. Then again, one of them wouldn't have made the
mistake Carnell did. I think. Orac, whose predictions seem limited, may
only be another one of those laminated mouse brains.
Only a true human would have Blake's attitude in Smith's writing. Ditto
Avon.
Skipping the space flight differences, the only problem is Gan, who just
_has_ to be one of the modified bulls (no way is he G'an, a goat man).
B'gan has enough double meanings to work with, come to think of it
(Smith, who had characters named T'ruth, was into that sort of thing).
I'm doing it again, aren't I? And at rather great and possibly not
riveting reading length.
OK, I'm taking notes on this, but it goes on the back burner, behind the
last five story ideas I had.
Ellynne
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End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #221
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