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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 19
Today's Topics:
Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar
[B7L] Avon & Friends
Re: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar
Re: [B7L] Avon's friends (was Many, mant people) How many threads
has this sp...
Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends
Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
[B7L] Re: Killer
Re: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar
[B7L] Computer animated piccies
Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends
Re: [B7L] Avon's friends (was Many, mant people) How many threads has this sp..
Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends
[B7L] Fab Cafe on January 29
[B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #18
[B7L] Mental health & Governments
[B7L] models for sale
[B7L] Robot Wars
[B7L] orac defeated
[B7L] Avon's friends
[B7L] Avon's friends
Re: [B7L] Robot Wars
[B7L] models for sale
Re: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar
Re: [B7L] Robot Wars
Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends
Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Re: [B7L] Re: Killer
[B7L] models for sale
Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends
Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:38:30 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar
Message-ID: <20000121043830.27080.qmail@hotmail.com>
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Oh...my...<gurgle>
Should have come with a 'do not read when eating, drinking,
in public or before heading to a *very* serious meeting'
warning...it put me in a giggly mood all morning.
This was absolutely hysterical. Neil, a million and three thanks...
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 20:52:54 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon & Friends
Message-ID: <20000121045254.27791.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
After I wrote:
<would even those of us who love Avon really want to
*live* with him???>
Ellyne answered:
<Well, if you mean 'live with' in the sense of a permanent, monogamous, gold
ring sort of 'live with' . . . . you knew
the asnwer already, right?>
Oh, I do, I do...but (coming down from the decidedly cloudy
clouds) how would you cope in Gan's shoes (besides in danger
of tripping over them). Being treated the way Avon treats
him? You'd would have to be somewhat more of a saint than -
well, a saint - to not feel mildly murderous a lot of the
time (the limiter notwithstanding) rising to strongly
homicidally hostile on Avon's good days.
Me, I may *love* him, but I don't think he'd be any nicer
to me than he is to Gan (possibly less the sixth time I
blew Orac up by accident). And the one time he *got* to
thump Avon, he was out of his head and probably couldn't
recall it later....
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:14:57 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar
Message-ID: <d.78f23b.25b94551@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 1/20/00 12:33:29 PM Mountain Standard Time,
N.Faulkner@tesco.net writes:
<< THE DANGERUS MISSHUN >>
ROFLMAO! Neil, you are one *strange* puppy...
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 00:14:58 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's friends (was Many, mant people) How many threads
has this sp...
Message-ID: <e3.60f850.25b94552@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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In a message dated 1/20/00 4:39:53 AM Mountain Standard Time,
kat@welkin.apana.org.au writes:
<< Rebel Recruit Mary-Sue: Avon, I really like you.
Avon (dryly): Isn't that nice. >>
Wanna start a pool as to how much longer she survives? <g>
I'd give her 3 days, tops.
Nina
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 19:38:35 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends
Message-ID: <3887D4BA.F2F67C1C@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sally Manton wrote:
> would even those of us who love Avon really
> want to *live* with him???)
Hmm. Which crew member(s) would *you* find easiest to live
with? I do believe you're going to have to start writing 'most' of
us--I find Avon quite restful; and I'm quite certain I'm not the only
person here. If you told me I had to share digs with a crew member,
he'd be by far easiest for me to put up with (I prefer to live alone)--
followed by Jenna and Soolin. Vila and Dayna only in a *real pinch*.
Any of the others, and I'd be at the doctor asking for anti-anxiety
drugs (and maybe so with Vila and Dayna).
I could probably be happy with any of them as next-door neighbours;
unless Vila was constantly throwing wild parties (and not inviting me?)
Mistral
--
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
--Galen, 'Crusade'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 07:59:12 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Message-ID: <001201bf63e5$8286dbc0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Lisa said -
>In the interests of accuracy, I suggest you check the date on the Canadian
>example Alison cited. The reference she gave had a publication date of
>1967; the actual case might have been even older. What the current
>situation is I don't know, but you can't draw too many conclusions about
>present-day practice from something that happened over 30 years ago,
>especially given the significant advances in the mental health field over
>that period.
Precisely. My point wasn't to compare the past of the Soviet Union with the
present in the West, but to show that both sides in the Cold War practised
extreme methods to deal with those who were 'different' for whatever reason.
And something about the brutalising effects of power.
People might be interested in the context in which I uncovered the quote I
mentioned because it is relevant to B7 (honest).
I was or am trying to write a 'Manchurian candidate' style novel about a
brainwashed assassin, therefore I have been researching theories on
brainwashing practices, and the extent to which they have been effective.
One pleasant thing about fiction research (as opposed to academic) is that
one is trying to uncover the plausible not the cast-iron true. However
because of the references, and the wider context, I am pretty sure that that
particular bit of information about what went on in that hospital is
true. It was fairly mainstream at the time.
The wider context was that some people think this particular psychiatric
practice was funded by certain parties as a front for brainwashing research.
This wider context I can't vouch for, I just note it as interesting for a
story. I have no way to judge if it happened.
Now, tying my 'brainwashing' research in with Blake (and Avon in RoD) I
think a couple of things are interesting:
- Torture and brainwashing don't really work very well, and they never have.
It is easy to break and hurt the human mind, but harder to manipulate it in
the way you want by brute force
- Torture is supposed to lead to 'truth' but it merely scares people into
generating elaborate fantasies or to saying back to you what you want to
hear (torture does however work as a means of frightening a civilian
population)
- Brainwashing is supposed to lead to 'control' but it is more likely to
lead to catatonia, hysteria, and faking (people can fake very well when the
alternative is 'back in the isolation tank')
- Same thing goes for hypnosis - faking is most common, and desire to please
- The best method of all (as far as I can tell) is to put people into
horrible conditions and then 'rescue' them and then exploit their gratitude
I'd still write a story with brainwashing in it, but I think the idea of
control is nothing more than a macho fantasy - to do away with the
hit-and-miss of propaganda and persuasion, and to turn people by brute force
into controlled machines. You can see the appeal to secret services.
I'd go so far as to say that what was done to Blake (or Dayna) can't be
done, no matter how sophisticated technology gets, because the human mind is
both too strong and too delicate. It just breaks, before you can do anything
useful to it. The rest is victims faking it because they are scared, and I
don't blame them.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:18:33 -0000
From: Godrich Stephen <Stephen.Godrich@icl.com>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Killer
Message-ID: <8FA6C9AA73AAD211BCEE00A0C9D9E5750238507A@WWMESSM7>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
>Susie Wright wrote:
>>As I was reading about "Killer" a thought struck me.... it aired in 1979
>>and dealt with a plague. Was England aware of AIDS yet?
>Too early. The first case of AIDS in the US wasn't identified until 1981,
>and while others quickly followed, it wasn't recognized as infectious until
>late 1982, nor was the scope of the epidemic clear in the early days. (I
>believe the HIV virus was isolated in 1983.) I don't have information on
>when the disease first appeared in the UK, but there certainly wasn't any
>awareness of an infectious "plague" as early as 1979.
>- Lisa
>--
Oooh, preminition. I could also be that rumours were flying around the
scientific community around 1979 about AIDS (or GRIDS as it was known before
the PC police got hold of it). The writer got inspiration to write about a
virus which there was no known cure.
Could all just be coincidence though :)
just my tuppence worth.
Steve
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:27:50 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar
Message-ID: <026201bf63fa$70db3050$0d01a8c0@hedge>
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Neil:
> BLAKE: Right crew lissen carefully put away your gurly magazeen Vila and
> Jenna stop panting yor nales. We hav to steal Top Sekrit Federashun
Weapon
> from base on this planet so we teleport to here, march through swamp
> infested with fire-breathing alein crocodiles swim across lava field cut
> through elektrified fence give sossages to feroshus guard dogs ...
My favourite bit.
> "The only good alein is a dead alein" - Ursula Leguiun
And this as well.
Your genius leaves me nearly speechless.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:37:41 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Computer animated piccies
Message-ID: <027601bf63fb$bc5436c0$0d01a8c0@hedge>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hi all,
I just had this site brought to my attention:
http://members.tripod.co.uk/aDziE/album.html
which is a number of computer generated images of the Liberator in a variety
of scenes. I think it's rather fab.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 03:55:18 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends
Message-ID: <20000121115518.88955.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
After I wrote:
<would even those of us who love Avon really want to *live* with him???)>
Mistral chided:
<Hmm. Which crew member(s) would *you* find easiest to live with? I do
believe you're going to have to start writing 'most' of us--I find Avon
quite restful; and I'm quite certain I'm not the only
person here.>
Actually, what I thought I'd get was at least a few "yes!!!" answers to the
question (possibly with capitals and/or bouncing <g>). It was a question,
after all, not a statement...
I guess it might depend - okay, okay, for some of us, let us be pedantic at
all costs :-) - on how we think *he* would take to *us* as well as vice
versa. And given his intolerance of (and sometimes contempt for) those he
does live with, and his casual verbal cruelty, I'd need a much thicker skin
and blister-proof soul before I'd be game to find out. Even those people he
likes can be turned on without the slightest hesitation (Blake - after the
failure of the takeover in Spacefall, bits of Redemption, the beginning of
Trial; Cally - The Web, Children of Auron; Vila - Voice From the Past,
Hostage, and quite a few of the jokes throughout get rather brutal; I *hate*
"you may use your fingers" from Assassin).
Might be fun to listen to, but I wouldn't care to be on the receiving end,
meself. And as I've said, I don't think he'd like me at all...I'd be in the
'game, fair or otherwise' category (and this presumes us both living in a
*safe* environment like mine. Move to his, and you also have never knowing
whether he will risk himself for you, or you for himself, and at what point
you *are* going to find out which it is <g>). Of course, anyone who thinks
they *could* take the put-downs quite happily - or that Avon would be nicer
to them - might feel differently.
The fact that while living together, he would always look a hell of a lot
prettier (in silver, black leather - yes, even the red leather) than me
would have nothing to do with the matter, of course.
To be honest, I don't think I could live comfortably with any of them. Of
the two nice ones - Gan and Cally - he's *too* nice and a bit stolid, she's
somewhat wet and humourless (this and everything that follows is as I see
them, *of course*). They'd both annoy me very very quickly.
You'd have to keep far too close an eye on Vilakins, and keep said eye open
at all times; Blake is too stubborn, temperamental and arrogant (and would
turn the house into a dumping place for lame dogs and other strays, human
and otherwise, faster than I could say "but I'm allergic to..."). Then
there's Dayna's irritating mixture of bloodthirstiness and bounciness (and
she'd damn well better give up the music); Jenna's narrow-mindedness towards
people who don't fit into ready-made pigeonholes, and her dubious
ex-or-not-friends; Tarrant's exasperatingly endless team spirit, air of
self-satisfaction and lack of common sense (hey, I don't have much either,
so *two* of us would be a disaster in the making). And Soolin would scare me
out of ten years' growth (and I don't *have* ten years to lose).
They're *all* such damaged souls, really...even the nice ones. That's part
of what makes them so interesting for me - and I do like nearly all of them,
and acknowledge their strengths and virtues as readily as their faults -
wonderful to watch, but rather less than comfortable to be around.
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 04:04:13 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon's friends (was Many, mant people) How many threads has this sp..
Message-ID: <20000121120413.87623.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Nina wrote:
<Wanna start a pool as to how much longer she survives? <g> I'd give her 3
days, tops.>
Hmmm...three days? I take it Avon was in a very very good mood (or a coma)
for most of the first two.
______________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 05:36:41 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends
Message-ID: <388860E8.E2652825@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sally Manton wrote:
> To be honest, I don't think I could live comfortably with any of them.
Okay, but if you *had* to pick one? And no fair choosing Orac
unless you agree to keep him switched on <g>.
Mistral
--
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
--Galen, 'Crusade'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:21:53 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" <BLAKES7@lysator.liu.se>,
Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] Fab Cafe on January 29
Message-ID: <200001211022_MC2-95B8-1857@compuserve.com>
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For (some of) those of you who can't get to Pages on February 12, or even
for those who can, about half a dozen of us are planning to meet at the Fab
Cafe (Portland Street, Manchester) on the evening of Saturday, January 29.
We might get there by six. Or half past. Or seven. Probably earlier.
Anyone who wants more details should probably get in touch with me or
Ellie.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:24:24 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #18
Message-ID: <3888B268.31BC@jps.net>
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>
> > So, fellow Lysters, if any of you ever see me at a con crawling around on
> my
> > hands and knees with my nose to the floor, I am not drunk out of my skull,
> I
> > am merely looking for Una.
>
> Neil, some of us crawling in the gutter, others are looking at the stars...
>
We'll see Neil, It all depends on whether you're saying, "The city is a
wossname, woman..."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 12:34:49 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Message-ID: <3888B4D9.3044@jps.net>
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Ellynne comments:
> 3) during the
> 60's and 70's there was a large number of people who thought the insane
> were simply eccentric and/or nonconformists and it was only 'the system'
> that abused them and institutionalized them.
>
Uh-uhn. I am referring to the great closing of institutions during the
Reagan years, in the Eighties.
>
> 'The Way Back,' being written in the late 70's, still reflects this
> attitude. It's not like a guy who thinks everyone is out to get him and
> doesn't have a shred of evidence to support his claims could be _wrong_.
>
Well, how much fun would the show be if it turned out Blake was a
pederast who was so disturbed at his own actions he went into a state of
total denial and created a fantasy of being the leader of a rebellion
against the evil government?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:17:40 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] models for sale
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0121091740-06cRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
I'm selling the following items on behalf of a friend.
Federation trooper - Comet miniatures, 2 inches high with a base added,
assembled and painted. - 7 pounds plus postage.
Federation pursuit ship, in scale with Comet Miniatures Liberator kit - scratch
built - £20 plus postage. (There never was any official kit for a pursuit ship,
so this is your only chance to own a pursuit ship unless you're a really keen
model-maker yourself.)
Federation trooper's helmet, full-sized replica, scratch-built and featured on
TV, twice (Jonathan Ross Show & Pebble Mill) - 60 pounds plus postage. )I think
the helmet represents particularly good value for money. It's a lovely replica
and you couldn't get one made for you at anything like that price.)
Federation officer's pistol, scratch-built (in aluminium and steel) - 40 pounds
plus postage.
I have photos of the helmet, ship and pistol which I'll e-mail to anyone who is
interested. I'm not going to clog up the list by posting them here. (I may
stick them on the web site if requested)
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:08:24 +0000
From: Steve Rogerson <steve.rogerson@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Robot Wars
Message-ID: <3888AEA2.CCA140C0@mcr1.poptel.org.uk>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
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Anyone see Robot Wars on BBC2 tonight? Someone had a robot called Orac's
Revenge. It was crap and got stuffed.
--
cheers
Steve Rogerson
http://homepages.poptel.org.uk/steve.rogerson
"In my world, there are people in chains and you can ride them like
ponies"
The alternative Willow, Buffy the Vampire Slayer
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:09:38 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] orac defeated
Message-ID: <000d01bf6443$37125d00$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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Did you see tonight's Robot Wars? One entrant was 'Orac's revenge' but alas,
although suitably aggressive its engine wasn't quite powerful enough and it
got shunted into the fire pit :-(
Ironically I think the house robots on that show are made by the guy who
made the Liberator
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:02:36 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon's friends
Message-ID: <3888BB5C.6401@jps.net>
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> ell, Judith *did* define her question as someone who
> 'actually liked our favourite pain-in-the-neck' (as distinct
> from just getting along with/being able to work with) and I
> put in the 'and he liked' meself. Gan is an extraordinarily
> tolerant man, and loyal to his team-mates, but...no, I don't
> think he likes Avon much at if all as a person (not that I
> can blame him...would even those of us who love Avon really
> want to *live* with him???) And vice versa to a even lesser
> degree - there's some responsibility, loyalty, even (on odd
> moments, as in Avalon) forbearance on Avon's side - but real
> liking does involve *some* thought about the other as an
> individual personality - and Avon IMO rarely bothers to do
> that with anyone.
Maybe different people are defining like differently. I like almost
everyone. I also, frequently, dislike them. Getting along can either
mean tolerating someone you dislike. Or it could mean not caring at all
(how can you spend *that much time with someone and *not* form an
opinion). Or it could mean liking someone enough that, on the whole,
they are okay.
I like the people I work with. OTOH, I have virtually nothing in common
with most of them. I am irritated by some of their habits. I have only
once met with any of them for any recreation off company time, and at
that, I only spent a small portion of the group trip with them.
The original question was do they *like* him, not *are they friends*,
which is another and more difficult question. I do not have any friends
among my coworkers, by my definition of friendship. So there are several
different questions we've been answering all from the same heading:
1. How many of his teammates liked Avon, as opposed to tolerating him in
the interest of getting the job done? (That is how I interpreted the
question).
2. Which crewmates liked him that he liked?
3. Who (or how many) would be Avon's friends?
While I said that I believe that most of his teammate liked him (I put
Jenna down as the exception... she has that look of barely tolerating
him frequently), I don't believe most of them were friends with him.
That I would limit to Blake, Vila, and Cally. At the same time I think
there was mutual like (a more tenuous thing than friendship) between
more of them. And I do think that he might have liked Jenna, a bit, even
if she disliked him.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:07:39 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Avon's friends
Message-ID: <3888BC8B.34EA@jps.net>
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> On Thu, 20 Jan 2000 12:26:48 PST "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
> writes:
> would even those of us who love Avon really
> >want to *live* with him???
>
> Well, if you mean 'live with' in the sense of a permanent, monogamous,
> gold ring sort of 'live with' . . . . you knew the asnwer already, right?
>
> Ellynne
>
Whereas I would say... I would *not* want to live on the Liberator, with
or without Avon on board (although better with). There are exactly 2
people in this world I feel I could enjoy being under the same roof with
for any length of time-- well, 3 if you count my mother. But I wouldn't
mind buying Avon a drink while he's enjoying Freedom City. Or go
shopping with him! He has such *interesting* taste in clothes...
Avon's friend,
Avona
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:28:44 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Robot Wars
Message-ID: <011c01bf6445$bd943130$0d01a8c0@hedge>
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Steve:
> Anyone see Robot Wars on BBC2 tonight? Someone had a robot called Orac's
> Revenge. It was crap and got stuffed.
Alison:
> Did you see tonight's Robot Wars? One entrant was 'Orac's revenge' but
alas,
> although suitably aggressive its engine wasn't quite powerful enough and
it
> got shunted into the fire pit :-(
'Robot Wars', huh? You connoisseurs of British television.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:35:58 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] models for sale
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0121193558-566Rr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
The helmet and the model trooper went in less than an hour...
The pursuit ship and pistol are still available as of 7.30pm...
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:00:29 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re [B7L] How to be Topp on the Liberatar
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Now that really did make me laugh out loud, spot on
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 19:57:46 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Robot Wars
Message-ID: <010201bf644a$4f9cd920$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Una said -
>'Robot Wars', huh? You connoisseurs of British television.
It's just on because the kids like it you understand.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 13:21:02 -0700
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Message-Id: <4.1.20000121124148.00979d80@mail.powersurfr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
At 07:59 AM 21/01/00 +0000, Alison Page wrote:
>I'd go so far as to say that what was done to Blake (or Dayna) can't be
>done, no matter how sophisticated technology gets, because the human mind is
>both too strong and too delicate. It just breaks, before you can do anything
>useful to it. The rest is victims faking it because they are scared, and I
>don't blame them.
What the B7 Future seems to have, that we don't, is some fairly practical
means of implanting and/or deleting memories, which is entirely unlike
'brainwashing' as we know it today. So, they delete from Blake's brain all
his memories of nasty things being done *to* him, but leave all the
memories of nasty things *he* has done...maybe mentally airbrush in a
bottle of Space-Whiskey in his hip pocket, make him truly believe his
rebellious vandalism was unjustified. Get him to articulate this belief for
the record. Then delete those memories before he starts noticing
inconsistencies in them. Thereafter just make sure he keeps taking his
Space-Prozac.
--
For A Dread Time, Call Penny:
http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:30:56 -0000
From: "Andrew Ellis" <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com>
To: "lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Message-ID: <00b501bf6458$e0423c00$abb901d5@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk>
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>
>>I'd go so far as to say that what was done to Blake (or Dayna) can't be
>>done, no matter how sophisticated technology gets, because the human mind
is
>>both too strong and too delicate. It just breaks, before you can do
anything
>>useful to it. The rest is victims faking it because they are scared, and I
>>don't blame them.
>
>What the B7 Future seems to have, that we don't, is some fairly practical
>means of implanting and/or deleting memories, which is entirely unlike
>'brainwashing' as we know it today. So, they delete from Blake's brain all
>his memories of nasty things being done *to* him, but leave all the
>memories of nasty things *he* has done...
I always thought that the phrase used in the series was that his memories
were blocked, and that because of his recent trauma, his brain was starting
to work its way around around the block. Hence the need to frame him,
perhaps using simple hypnotic techniques for the children. Planting memories
I imagine would be reasonably easy, and is certainly not new to Sci Fi.
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 20:01:17 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends
Message-ID: <nwp6naANsLi4Ew+O@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <20000121115518.88955.qmail@hotmail.com>, Sally Manton
<smanton@hotmail.com> writes
>
>They're *all* such damaged souls, really...even the nice ones. That's part
>of what makes them so interesting for me - and I do like nearly all of them,
>and acknowledge their strengths and virtues as readily as their faults -
>wonderful to watch, but rather less than comfortable to be around.
I think I'd find Avon the least difficult to get on with, but there's a
reason for that, and no it isn't sex, it's (look away now, people of a
nervous disposition) to do with Myers-Brigg...
Of course, the sex aspect doesn't hurt:^)
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:59:29 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Message-ID: <a26VWyABbNi4Ew5g@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <20000119.225551.9134.0.Rilliara@juno.com>, Ellynne G.
<rilliara@juno.com> writes
>'The Way Back,' being written in the late 70's, still reflects this
>attitude. It's not like a guy who thinks everyone is out to get him and
>doesn't have a shred of evidence to support his claims could be _wrong_.
And the ample evidence the lawyer finds to support Blake's claims, once
he goes to the trouble of actually looking for it, is merely a figment
of the viewer's imagination.
Doesn't have a shred of evidence, or isn't given the opportunity to
present his evidence?
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:41:25 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Message-ID: <O27QGmAFKNi4EwbM@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <001201bf63e5$8286dbc0$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>, Alison Page
<alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk> writes
>I'd go so far as to say that what was done to Blake (or Dayna) can't be
>done, no matter how sophisticated technology gets, because the human mind is
>both too strong and too delicate. It just breaks, before you can do anything
>useful to it.
Except that a very, very primitive version is already being done. I
looked up some references on New Scientist's website earlier today, and
of course left them at work, so I'll have to do another search before I
can quote chapter and verse. I was working from a vague memory of
reading an article - try searching their site for "alien abduction" to
bring up a couple of the relevant pages. The gist of it is that a
neuroscientist (I think by the name of Michael Persinger, but I don't
guarantee to have remembered it correctly) has been playing around with
using magnetic fields to stimulate specific areas in the brain to fire
in unusual patterns, and has been getting some very interesting results.
He can reproduce certain hallucinations to order - hallucinations that
fit very well with some of the experiences described by people who claim
to have seen ghosts, angels, and aliens with unnatural desires. Only
some people are susceptible to this, but you can accurately pick out who
they are by examining their neural patterns with the equipment before
you start feeding in new signals.
The article I was after wasn't actually on the site, but he has
apparently been getting interest from quarters he'd rather not be
getting interest from - because some of his most recent work suggests
the possibility of finer manipulation to produce other, more
...useful... hallucinations - or to reinforce an imposed memory so that
it becomes real, *without* breaking the mind.
Some of the links I followed provided very interesting food for thought.
Well worthwhile for the fanfic writers as a source of ideas.
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:02:49 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Message-ID: <v3kI2dA5lMi4Ewvr@jajones.demon.co.uk>
Right, my fingers can manage a little typing, so I don't have to talk,
avoid saying "um", and think all at the same time, always a difficult
thing to do...
In message <3886533D.35FD@jps.net>, Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
writes
>Ok, so the UK hs apssed a law enabling people to be commited as mentally
>ill against their wills on the basic of psychiatric assessment,
>regardless of past criminal behavior.
This isn't about people who are mentally ill and need treatment, but
won't or are incapable of giving consent. They can be sectioned, always
assuming there's a bed available in the local secure unit. The UK has
its fair share of people who pleaded to be restrained because they were
scared by their own behaviour, but only got a bed in the secure wing
after they'd killed someone - but that's due to lack of funding, not to
lack of legal means for compulsory restraint.
The people I'm talking about are technically not mentally ill, and their
psychiatric condition cannot be treated.
The proposal is to allow people diagnosed as sociopathic to be locked
up, purely on the grounds that they have been diagnosed as sociopathic.
Not because that particular individual is clearly an immediate danger to
the public, but because sociopaths *as* *a* *group* are a high risk
group to let loose in society. There appears to be no requirement for
anything other than a diagnosis and second opinion that the individual
is sociopathic, and that this particular example of a sociopath should
be locked up for the good of society.
There is a good reason for this legislation. There are some truly
frightening people out there, and this offers the only way to restrain
them before they harm someone. They aren't treatable, they aren't
necessarily even mentally ill in the usual sense, they aren't a danger
to themselves, and therefore they can't be forcibly restrained or
treated under the Mental Health Act. The legislation, if used correctly,
will undoubtedly save a few lives, and a great deal of misery short of
murder.
However:
a) It appears that most sociopaths never engage in criminal behaviour
so extreme as to warrant this sort of draconian measure (either because
they never encounter any reason to, or because they do but realise that
they will be punished if caught, even though in their opinion there is
nothing wrong with doing whatever they want to do).
b) Sociopathy is easy to misdiagnose, either through confusion with
other conditions, or through defining certain behaviour as sociopathy.
Examples:
An e-acquaintance of mine was so misdiagnosed. This item came to light
when he was discussing on the newsgroup what was *actually* wrong with
him - he has a syndrome related to, but milder than, autism. He has a
lot of trouble with interpreting social cues in Real Life, and assorted
problems as a result, and this resulted at one stage in the above
diagnosis. (Interestingly, he has very good social skills on the net,
better than many people, because here he doesn't have to try and process
all the social cues most of us assimilate without even thinking about,
he just has to look at the words. And words are *no* problem.)
Read psychiatry texts from the fifties, and even the sixties, and you'll
find that having an illegitimate child is considered evidence of
psychopathy. Not surprising, really. Something *I* hadn't realised until
I saw a tv programme a few years ago - as recently as just before WW2,
girls were being institutionalised for having had under-age sex.
Apparently a fifteen year old girl who wasn't a virgin and hadn't been
raped was clearly insane and needed to be locked up, for life, to avoid
embarrassment to her family.
c) Some psychiatrists have a great deal of trouble admitting that they,
or even another psychiatrist, have made an incorrect diagnosis. The
Rosenthal (IIRC) experiments demonstrated this, in a truly terrifying
manner. Once you're in an institution, it can be very hard to get out
again, even if you've been wrongfully committed. From the experimental
results, *especially* if you've been wrongfully committed.
I do wonder how many people are going to end up in a locked ward who
need not or should not be there. And after seeing some of the recent
abuses by our own dear government (the last one, but then this one
hasn't had much time yet), I wonder how many of them will have been
knowingly put there. The last government wilfully and maliciously abused
its power, and attempted to send innocent men to jail rather than admit
to its ministers having broken the law. Fortunately one judge refused to
accept a minister's assurances that it would endanger the security of
the nation for certain papers to be placed in front of the court, and
that the judge did not need to see the papers in private in order to
decide for himself.
>treatment by
>electroshock therapy, a practice which I thought had been condemned as
>both barbaric and useless several years ago.
As someone's already pointed out, it's not useless, but should be
considered a last resort. Unfortunately, the abuses of the past mean
that it's now almost impossible to use it even on the small minority of
patients who would benefit. An example of the pendulum swinging too far
in the opposite direction.
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:05:11 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Message-ID: <gWfbO3AXgNi4Ewd$@jajones.demon.co.uk>
In message <4.1.20000121124148.00979d80@mail.powersurfr.com>, Penny
Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com> writes
>So, they delete from Blake's brain all
>his memories of nasty things being done *to* him, but leave all the
>memories of nasty things *he* has done...maybe mentally airbrush in a
>bottle of Space-Whiskey in his hip pocket, make him truly believe his
>rebellious vandalism was unjustified.
Ooh, nasty idea, I wanna nick it for a story...
--
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2000 08:36:19 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Killer
Message-ID: <20000122083619.A1991@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 09:18:33AM -0000, Godrich Stephen wrote:
> >Susie Wright wrote:
> >>As I was reading about "Killer" a thought struck me.... it aired in 1979
> >>and dealt with a plague. Was England aware of AIDS yet?
> >Too early. The first case of AIDS in the US wasn't identified until 1981,
> >and while others quickly followed, it wasn't recognized as infectious until
>
> >late 1982, nor was the scope of the epidemic clear in the early days. (I
> >believe the HIV virus was isolated in 1983.) I don't have information on
> >when the disease first appeared in the UK, but there certainly wasn't any
> >awareness of an infectious "plague" as early as 1979.
> >- Lisa
> >--
>
> Oooh, preminition. I could also be that rumours were flying around the
> scientific community around 1979 about AIDS (or GRIDS as it was known before
> the PC police got hold of it). The writer got inspiration to write about a
> virus which there was no known cure.
>
> Could all just be coincidence though :)
I am utterly *convinced* it was coincidence. AIDS isn't the only
plague there has ever been, and tying everything in with AIDS
demonstrates a historical myopia which is irritating, if not
appalling.
When did Terry Nation write "Survivors"?
When did Pat Frank write "Alas Babylon"?
When did Kate W-something write "Where Late The Sweet Birds Sang"?
Not to mention all the other SF authors who've written about plagues
and apocalypses.
(grumble, grumble, grumble)
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/ \ | http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/ | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
v |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:15:09 +0000 (GMT)
From: Judith Proctor <Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
To: Lysator List <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
cc: Freedom City <freedom-city@blakes-7.org>
Subject: [B7L] models for sale
Message-ID: <Marcel-1.46-0121221509-84fRr9i@blakes-7.demon.co.uk>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII
Everything is now sold.
Judith
--
http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 - Fanzines for Blake's 7, B7 Filk songs,
pictures, news, Conventions past and present, Blake's 7 fan clubs, Gareth
Thomas, etc. (also non-Blake's 7 zines at http://www.nas.com/~lknight )
Redemption '01 23-25 Feb 2001 http://www.smof.com/redemption/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2000 17:54:12 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Avon & Friends
Message-ID: <20000122015412.85652.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
After I wrote:
<To be honest, I don't think I could live comfortably with any of them.>
Mistral wrote:
<Okay, but if you *had* to pick one? And no fair choosing Orac
unless you agree to keep him switched on <g>.>
Zen.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 20:03:21 -0700
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Mental health & Governments
Message-ID: <19990121.200323.8638.0.Rilliara@juno.com>
On Fri, 21 Jan 2000 21:59:29 +0000 Julia Jones
<julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk> writes:
>In message <20000119.225551.9134.0.Rilliara@juno.com>, Ellynne G.
><rilliara@juno.com> writes
>>'The Way Back,' being written in the late 70's, still reflects this
>>attitude. It's not like a guy who thinks everyone is out to get him
>and
>>doesn't have a shred of evidence to support his claims could be
>_wrong_.
>
>And the ample evidence the lawyer finds to support Blake's claims,
>once
>he goes to the trouble of actually looking for it, is merely a figment
>of the viewer's imagination.
>
>Doesn't have a shred of evidence, or isn't given the opportunity to
>present his evidence?
OK, OK, I misphrased. In context of the show alone, Blake is obviously
being set up, is innocent, etc. In context of stories from that time
period dealing with insanity, the nut is never truly guilty (except in
some cases where insanity is used to explain criminal acts. There tends
to be a strong theme of 'innocent by reason of insanity' to many of those
[killer goes through traumatic experience (usually a parent's fault) and
develops 'problem]).
My reading on the issue has been spotty, and I grant the Reagan years saw
a lot of Draconian cuts, but I'm pretty sure the first article I read on
it was from the 70's and that it made specific reference to the _reasons_
changes in insanity law were made. Even if there were facilities enough
to house them (which, I agree, there aren't), many insane people don't
qualify by many current laws in the U.S. which often require the person
be an _immediate_ to themselves or others. There have been cases where
doctors could swear in court an individual would be back to violent
behavior in a matter of months without proper supervision and that this
was what happened over and over again in the past--but they weren't a
threat _now_, so they were released.
Ellynne
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