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blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 188
Today's Topics:
[B7L] Fav episodes
Re: [B7L] After the revolution
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
[B7L] Servalan as android?
[B7L] Re: Torture (was B7/DS9 crossover thing)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L] Labyrinth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender)
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
[B7L] Re: servalan the android
[B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
[B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
[B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
[B7L] Midsummer Night's Dream
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
[B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #168
[B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #168
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
[B7L] Susan Matthews novels
Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 03:28:11 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Fav episodes
Message-ID: <20000703102811.88529.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Betty wrote:
<Well, I did watch it again last night (I just couldn't face "Blake" on an
evening sandwiched between two 10-hour shifts at work), and Sally's right.
It *is* three. You just have to watch carefully. :)>
Actually, I don't just enjoy this stuff because it's My Heroes (no, I don't.
Truly. Stop groaning) but because it also appeals to my sense of the
ridiculous. After all, every hero worth his salt (and most anti-heroes worth
their vitriol) have the correct protective instincts built in, towards
damsels in distress, children etc - metaphorical injured puppies.
Avon OTOH has strong (if erratic) protective instincts, but of the three
crew members who inspire them most strongly, two of them are Fearless Leader
(for the most part as fragile as a battering ram) and the Valkyrie Dayna
(who would scare the dickens out of any sensible man and the first time she
lays eyes on him, slings him over her shoulder and carts him off to a
deserted cave :-)). Two of the *strongest* people he comes across.
Avon does have this wonderful illogical streak among the cold rationality,
and it's such *fun* to watch it in action.
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Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 03:26:42 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] After the revolution
Message-ID: <20000703102642.71803.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Harriet wrote:
<But (as I have undoubtedly said before) I think the Federation is more like
the Athenian Empire....>
Am trying *very* hard to think of something to say other than 'agreed'
'agreed', 'me too' ...
Oh what the hell.
'Yes, I agree' to the whole post, Harriet :-)
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:42:31 +1000
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <20000703194231.B20159@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Sun, Jul 02, 2000 at 09:36:50PM +0100, Nyder wrote:
>
> Oh, and to Una's example of the dreamheads who died when Blake blew up their
> Shadow supply, I'd add the inhabitants of a number of planets whose weather
> system was controlled by Star One.
Well, to pick a nit, that was caused by the Andromedans. IMHO, I
don't think just destroying Star One would have caused as much chaos
as what actually happened - I think the Andromedans were deliberately
making the systems go nutzy.
--
_--_|\ | Kathryn Andersen <kat@foobox.net>
/ \ | http://www.foobox.net/~kat
\_.--.*/ | http://jove.prohosting.com/~rubykat
v | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha! | -> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 04:17:08 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <20000703111708.53103.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Kathryn wrote:
<Well, to pick a nit, that was caused by the Andromedans. IMHO, I don't
think just destroying Star One would have caused as much chaos as what
actually happened - I think the Andromedans were deliberately making the
systems go nutzy.>
I'll share that nitpick :-) What we see in the early scenes of Star One
seems to be the results of climate control *out* of control, rather than a
reversion to whatever was natural for each planet. It is probable that there
would have been *some* serious problems (and probably deaths) from the
latter, but nothing like what Durkin was displaying.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 12:38:51 +0100
From: "Deborah Day" <d.day@ukgateway.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Servalan as android?
Message-ID: <014f01bfe4e3$4584bf60$3485bc3e@oemcomputer>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Here's a thought that came to me this morning. What if Servalan was an
android, sent out by the things from the Darkling Zone? She presided over
the break up of the Federation empire to a large extent, and certainly
seemed to be largely against most of humanity (but for herself). Of course
she would have been programmed not to notice that she was an android, and
could perhaps have been replaced when she reached adulthood.
And maybe Travis was one too ...
Debbie Day.
------------------------------
Date: Mon Jul 3 12:32:15 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: Torture (was B7/DS9 crossover thing)
Message-Id: <200007031137.MAA10336@smtp.uk2net.com>
Hello!
I've never seen DS9 so I can't respond to this very fully, hence long snips,
but I couldn't resist this thread.
Betty:
> This is certainly true, but I think an even greater part of it is that
> Shrinker is supposed to be a Bad Guy, where Garak is... well, at least
> something along the lines of a good guy. :) The audience is *supposed*
> to think of Shrinker as evil, if only so *Avon* doesn't seem as
> horrible for what he does to him. (Though personally, it gives me
> chills. Not that he kills Shrinker, but the deliberately cruel way in
> which he does it.)
I think we're certainly meant to get chills when Avon kills Shrinker, and to
see his treatment of Shrinker (threats to get information) as a form of torture
in itself - though you're right, it's not as extreme as Shrinker's laser-probe
thing, and that makes it a bit less dark/complex than it could have been.
Jacqueline:
> > I think Garak would use the more subtle forms of torture: keep his victim
> > tied up under a dripping faucet. Or get Vila roaring drunk one evening and
> > then hold his attention with endless stories about how he tortured others
> > while Vila is nursing the hangover of a lifetime.
>
Betty again:
> I particularly like that last one. :) Although, one idea Robinson
> advances in the book (and, again, one I very much agree with) is the
> idea that Garak's *preferred* method of gaining information isn't
> torture at all. It's getting you to talk to him voluntarily (either
> because he's likeable and easy to talk to or because he's so
> fascinatingly enigmatic that you want to keep him talking in hopes
> that you'll get some information about *him*). And I think that would
> be *very* easy with Vila. :)
>
I read this book called "The Body in Pain" (Elaine Scarry) as research for some
torture-related fanfiction (a first draft which will be posted to The Other
List today or tomorrow btw, plug plug) and she points out that the
interrogation in torture is actually a part of the torture. Torture is a
ridiculously inefficient way of getting information, even nowadays, let alone
in B7 universe (don't know about DS9) where anyone can just be put in a
Project-Avalon type machine or given a Pressure-Point stylee drug. The point of
torture according to Scarry is simply to destroy the voice of the political
prisoner, take away their sense of self, and cause them to speak in the voice
of the Establishment or whatever ("Renounce freedom! Renounce! Renounce!").
Which to me at least actually goes some way towards explaining why
"traditional" torture methods are still used in B7 where they are obviously
inefficient if you really do just want to gather information. (It sounds like
Garak has the right idea keeping info-gathering and torture separate to an
extent...)
Love,
Ika
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Date: Mon Jul 3 12:44:16 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-Id: <200007031149.MAA10495@smtp.uk2net.com>
I'm *loving* this thread, and haven't said anything so far because everyone
else is so much more interesting on it than I could be. But that never stops me
for long... Still, I'm not going to respond at length, because I can't. So,
huge snips ahoy!
Nyder/Fiona:
>
> Which is why I went for Italy-- more ambiguous. But, purely for the sake of
> argument, I'll contend that it might have made something of itself if its
> leader hadn't been stark raving mad. Even Nazi Germany produced Leni
> Riefenstahl and Albert Speer, and ended the howling chaos that was Weimar
> (the way it did it is unforgivable, as I'd be the first to say-- but wasn't
> Imperial Rome also aimed at world domination and built on slave labour?).
I tend to see the Federation as a successor to Imperial Rome and the British
Empire, both of which are indefensible in my book. So Blake, for me, is trying
to obtain freedom and self-government for all colonized planets in the first
instance - what he would do on Earth if he won and the Federation ceased
ruling there is another question, to which I don't pretend to have an answer,
except that I imagine life at the imperial metropolis tends to change pdq once
the empire doesn't exist any more. (Re: Blake's fuzziness on what happens after
the revolution - my colonial history is almost non-existent, but does anyone
know whether Gandhi/other fighters for self-government in colonized countries
had a clear statement about what Home Rule would involve, or were they just
busy trying to get the colonizers out?)
Presumably the class system on Earth is interdependent with the Federation's
control of resources on colony planets, and some form of change would have to
come about once these were cut off.
Any ideas on how the Federation rule their colonies, btw? I can't remember
seeing much about this before "Traitor", by which time they have pyelene-50 and
it's changing. It seems not to have been on the Roman model of minimal
interference - or was it?
Love,
Ika
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Date: 03 Jul 2000 13:49:06 +0200
From: Calle Dybedahl <calle@lysator.liu.se>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <86k8f31ljh.fsf@tezcatlipoca.algonet.se>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>>>>> "Una" == Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk> writes:
> Calle wrote:
>> I think you can fairly say that it has. The June that just ended was,
>> at 1037 posts, the second most active month ever (only beaten by
>> February 1998, which had 1114 posts).
> And how many of those had 'Animals' in the subject line?
Of the ones in June 2000, 150 (15 of which were sent by people with
"Una" in their name). Of the ones in February 1998, none had "Animals"
in the subject line.
--
Calle Dybedahl, Vasav. 82, S-177 52 Jaerfaella,SWEDEN | calle@lysator.liu.se
"Last week was a nightmare, never to be repeated - until this week"
-- Tom, a.s.r
------------------------------
Date: Mon Jul 3 12:50:24 BST 2000
From: Ika <blake@gaudaprime.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Labyrinth (was Fave episodes/ class status/gender)
Message-Id: <200007031156.MAA10554@smtp.uk2net.com>
Joanne:
> > Thankyou to the pair of you, because I'm now trying to get rid of the idea
> > of Servalan reeling off the "You remind me of the babe" bit of the movie,
> > with assorted troops and toyboys standing in for the goblins!
Oh, don't get rid of it! I love it! Thank you for this image, it's made my day.
Mistral:
>
> Does it help any if I volunteer that I don't see any resemblance
> between the two (perish the thought--I'm very fond of Jareth),
> but I've always seen a distinct similarity between Jareth and Avon?
Oh, me too. But I've always seen a distinct similarity between Servalan and
Avon, as well.
Love
Ika
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Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:35:31 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <03c301bfe4eb$3988b010$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Calle wrote:
> >>>>> "Una" == Una McCormack <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk> writes:
>
> > Calle wrote:
> >> I think you can fairly say that it has. The June that just ended was,
> >> at 1037 posts, the second most active month ever (only beaten by
> >> February 1998, which had 1114 posts).
>
> > And how many of those had 'Animals' in the subject line?
>
> Of the ones in June 2000, 150 (15 of which were sent by people with
> "Una" in their name). Of the ones in February 1998, none had "Animals"
> in the subject line.
I feel validated as a human being.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 04:54:06 -0700
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <39607EDE.3CD3C78F@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Una wrote:
> > > And how many of those had 'Animals' in the subject line?
> >
> > Of the ones in June 2000, 150 (15 of which were sent by people with
> > "Una" in their name). Of the ones in February 1998, none had "Animals"
> > in the subject line.
>
> I feel validated as a human being.
Are you sure you don't mean 'validated as an Animal'?
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
--Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:03:41 -0400
From: "Dana Shilling" <dshilling@worldnet.att.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <00d401bfe4ef$2e473b00$04604e0c@dshilling>
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Nyder said:
>
> To tie this thread into the class-war thread going on elsewhere: this post
> reminds me that we actually don't *see* many people who would be below,
say,
> a beta-grade. >
> Are the lower classes happy with their lot? More easily duped? Or just not
> posh enough?
If you're not the lead sled dog, the scenery never changes. The Lower
Grades
may feel that they have very little stake in what the Alphas are doing,
because
whatever happens, they're still going to be working in factories and
cleaning
houses.
-(Y)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:29:17 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "B7 List" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <001a01bfe4f2$b1af56a0$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Mistral wrote:
> Una wrote:
>
> > > > And how many of those had 'Animals' in the subject line?
> > >
> > > Of the ones in June 2000, 150 (15 of which were sent by people with
> > > "Una" in their name). Of the ones in February 1998, none had "Animals"
> > > in the subject line.
> >
> > I feel validated as a human being.
>
> Are you sure you don't mean 'validated as an Animal'?
It's a fine line early in the morning, Mistral, but by this time in the
afternoon, I can usually be described as human rather than animal.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 10:36:15 -0400
From: "Christine+Steve" <cgorman@idirect.com>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <013201bfe4fc$1f4880c0$ce019ad8@cgorman>
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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> Kathryn wrote:
> <Well, to pick a nit, that was caused by the Andromedans. IMHO, I don't
> think just destroying Star One would have caused as much chaos as what
> actually happened - I think the Andromedans were deliberately making the
> systems go nutzy.>
Then Sally Manton added :
>
> I'll share that nitpick :-) What we see in the early scenes of Star One
> seems to be the results of climate control *out* of control, rather than a
> reversion to whatever was natural for each planet. It is probable that
there
> would have been *some* serious problems (and probably deaths) from the
> latter, but nothing like what Durkin was displaying.
I guess it depends how inhospitable the planets were before the climate
control systems were switched on. How much did the climate systems control?
Whether it changed an existing "livable" environment, or whether it was able
to generate a new atmosphere over a previously poisonous one.
Steve Dobson.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 16:07:20 +0100
From: Alison Page <alison_page@becta.org.uk>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: servalan the android
Message-ID: <21B0197931E1D211A26E0008C79F6C4AB0C673@BRAMLEY>
Content-Type: text/plain
Debbie Day said
>What if Servalan was an android, sent out by the things from the Darkling
Zone?
Eldritch outer spheres with shadowy purposes? - I like it.
But remember Servalan saved the human race. And furthermore, she had to be
who she was (and Blake had to be who he was) in order for the two of them
together to save the human race.
So my take on B7 is that the characters are all manufactured, manipulated
and puppeted into position by outside forces. But to protect the galaxy and
its denizens not to destroy it.
>replaced when she reached adulthood
So she was still a toddler-android? That explains quite a lot.
Alison
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:54:33 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <20000703.101848.-76409.0.rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
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On Sun, 2 Jul 2000 21:25:08 +0100 "Nyder"
<nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net> writes:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Alison Page <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
> To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
> Sent: Saturday, July 01, 2000 9:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
>
>
> > Ellyne said -
>
> > that the 'luvable cheery poor person' stereotype doesn't exist in
> US films
> > and TV shows.
No, that wasn't me.
Cheeky Cockney, that's what we don't have. Granted there are other
stereotypes based on people in lower positions who are shown enjoying
subservience. But these are NOT the same. When I say 'NOT the same,'
I'm not discussing whether America has or has not had some stereotypes
that did and/or do belong on the trash heap or that may be just as/more
offensive. I'm saying you can't take a role written for, say, a Cheeky
Cockney, replace the character with, say, an African American, and expect
complete translation of the part.
Example: Pygmalion and My Fair Lady (which criticize class structure, but
it's all I can think of besides B7) deal with certain elements of dialect
and class in the U.K. However, Liza/Eliza would be completely
unacceptable in the U.S. recast as Black instead of Cockney. Why?
Because, for one thing, it is a hot issue to present an African American
actively and cheerfully trying to dump her ethnic origins - AND to
present it as a good and desirable thing. Take a look at stories where
it does happen. In one book I read, a young woman leaves home and passes
for white. Years later, she runs into her uncle in a public place who
tries to embrace her. She pretends not to know him and he is beaten up.
In Queen, pretending to be white leads to rape and abuse. The tendency
is towards those warning stories that show a character doing something
some of the audience may have daydreamed or thought about and being
punished for it.
OTOH, I brought up Jane Eyre. Sure, I understood why it was such a
shocker for Mr. Rochester to marry a governess - but only intellectually.
Cinderella has a deeper hold on my psyche perhaps than I'd realized. I
didn't have a gut level reaction to this version of rags to riches. I
didn't fully realize how low my emotional reaction was until I saw a
version that made me think of high school cliques rather than social
castes. Once I saw Jane as the poor, bad looking nerd with limited
social skills and Mr. Rochester as part of the in crowd, rich, good
looking (in this version), with all the proper social skills, and Blanche
as head cheerleader, it all registered on a gut level.
So, inasmuch as B7 may copy elements of British social distinctions
(whether in use of not) for its whole grading system, I may dislike the
caste system on principle but my emotional reaction's a little low. My
ability to analyze Vila as stereotype is borderline nonexistant.
> Two words: Homer Simpson.
>
Vila Restal Simpson.
OK, this I can see.
Does that mean Servalan Burns?
No wonder they broke into so many power plants.
Ellynne
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:34:21 +0000
From: Murray <mjsmith@tcd.ie>
To: Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover
Message-Id: <l03110702b5867db573b0@[134.226.96.44]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
An excellent B7/DS9 crossover story already exists in print: 'Seas of God'
by Sharon Eckman, published by Diane Gies in the zine 'The Web 3', which I
very strongly recommend, as it also has superb illustrations.
Murray
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:44:25 +0000
From: Murray <mjsmith@tcd.ie>
To: Lysator <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-Id: <l03110703b5867f34cdcc@[134.226.96.44]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Ika,
>I tend to see the Federation as a successor to Imperial Rome and the British
>Empire, both of which are indefensible in my book. So Blake, for me, is
>trying
>to obtain freedom and self-government for all colonized planets in the first
>instance - what he would do on Earth if he won and the Federation ceased
>ruling there is another question, to which I don't pretend to have an answer,
>except that I imagine life at the imperial metropolis tends to change pdq
>once
>the empire doesn't exist any more. (Re: Blake's fuzziness on what happens
>after
>the revolution - my colonial history is almost non-existent, but does anyone
>know whether Gandhi/other fighters for self-government in colonized countries
>had a clear statement about what Home Rule would involve, or were they just
>busy trying to get the colonizers out?)
You missed one fundamental difference between the Terran Federation and the
Roman and British Empires: their attitudes towards religion. The Romans
allowed a wide degree of religious toleration, only intervegning if a
religion had features that they regarded as particularly objectionable,
such as human sacrifice. The British consciously followed the Romans, only
interfering in cases like sutee (the burning of widows).
The Federation, by contrast, appeared to be hostile to _all_ religion as a
matter of ideology, and for that reason reminds me more of the Soviet Union
under Stalin.
>Any ideas on how the Federation rule their colonies, btw? I can't remember
>seeing much about this before "Traitor", by which time they have
>pyelene-50 and
>it's changing. It seems not to have been on the Roman model of minimal
>interference - or was it?
There is another example of Federation rule in 'Horizon', where it rules
via the planet's hereditary monarch, Ro. What we see reminds me of the
Roman client kings or of the princely states in India under the Raj.
Murray
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 17:48:18 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <Blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover
Message-ID: <014501bfe50e$7ee28320$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Murray,
> An excellent B7/DS9 crossover story already exists in print: 'Seas of God'
> by Sharon Eckman, published by Diane Gies in the zine 'The Web 3', which I
> very strongly recommend, as it also has superb illustrations.
Does it have Garak?
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 18:16:14 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: "Lysator" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <015b01bfe512$6a3edd20$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Fiona wrote:
> >But I do think that one can reasonably describe societies
> > as structurally 'evil' or structurally 'good'
> > But this doesn't preclude good societies from doing bad
> > things and bad societies doing good things.
>
> I'll have to semi-agree to disagree. I can't see any *type* of society as
> inherently good or evil; there's nothing fundamentally good about
democracy,
> IMO, and there's nothing fundamentally evil about a tyranny, it just
depends
> what you do with it.
And I half-disagree whilst agreeing with you <g>
Two things to answer there, I think. One, no - I wasn't arguing that *types*
of society are inherently good or evil and that you could thereby apply that
blueprint to other societies, I was suggesting that one could look at
*particular* societies and make a value judgement if you wanted to (which I
invariably do - can't help it, high 'J' score).
Secondly, 'it just depends what you do with it' is what I was implying with
'good societies can do bad things', etc. Umm, what's my point? I think I'm
trying to emphasize the processes involved, and downplay the differences
made by individuals.
> > Hereby forgoing victory in this argument, I invoke Nazi Germany, which I
> > think one could reasonably suggest was a structurally evil regime,
>
> Which is why I went for Italy-- more ambiguous. But, purely for the sake
of
> argument,
The purpose of life :)
> I'll contend that it might have made something of itself if its
> leader hadn't been stark raving mad.
Can an individual have a noticeable impact on history? In Hitler's case one
would instantly say, 'yes', but the interesting thing about the example is
the extent to which the bulk of that society happily threw itself behind a
leader who was stark raving mad.
> Even Nazi Germany produced Leni
> Riefenstahl and Albert Speer,
Both of whom I'd use as contrary examples <g>: people whose talents and
intellects were corrupted by the political system in which they operated.
> and ended the howling chaos that was Weimar
The classic example of how shit democracy can be!
> (the way it did it is unforgivable, as I'd be the first to say-- but
wasn't
> Imperial Rome also aimed at world domination and built on slave labour?).
I don't know anything about Roman political ideology and justifications for
expansion, but what troubles me most about the Nazi example is the way in
which racial/nationalist ideology was pivotal, and the ruthlessness and
success with which it was enacted.
> > There are also societies which are structurally flawed and end up on the
> > road to self-destruction: Harriet supplied an interesting example
elsewhere,
> > in which she described how the Spartan ruling class eventually
endangered
>
> Don't know anything about Sparta, so I'll pass.
Nor I, so we'll stop that one ;)
> > of protecting humanity, and that's why we see the rebellions emerging.
The
> > irony is that the rebellion has to be as vicious as the regime its
trying to
> > replace. Even in its opposition, the Federation creates brutality.
>
> Agreed, that any regime where the only form of resistance is an illegal
one
> is flawed. But I'd still maintain that that's got less to do with the
> Federation's structure and more to do with the way it's run.
Oh, I see what's happening, we're arguing with different terminology about a
roughly similar thing (always happens). I think the structural aspects of a
society are very closely associated with its processes.
> Playing devil's advocate again,
Best part to play <g>
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 11:10:33 -0600
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Message-ID: <20000703.111038.-76409.4.rilliara@juno.com>
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On Sun, 2 Jul 2000 15:27:40 +0100 (BST) Judith Proctor
<Judith@blakes-7.com> writes:
> On Sun 02 Jul, Jacqueline Thijsen wrote:
> >
> > Coming back to the topic of Garak enjoying his former job: I think
> he did
> > enjoy it, and only lost his some of his taste for it after several
> years of
> > living among people who didn't try to stab him in the back.
First, to compare Garak to Shrinker, I think there are certain, important
differences. On the selfish side, both of them may have enjoyed the job
(Shrinker probably _really_ enjoyed it). Garak definitly enjoyed the
perks - the importance of his position, the power perks (no one messed
with the Sons of Tain [even if there turned out to be only one, and a
literal one at that (in context, it seems to reduce the importance within
the Obsidian Order]), and it suited him. There is something so Garak
about the way he had an argument with Gul Dukat while lasers were firing
all around them, paying no more attention to Dukat's power (much greater
than Garak's at this point) than he does to the lasers.
It suddenly occured to me that Garak has a great deal in common with
Vila. They both cultivate similar personas but for radically different
reasons. Makes me see Dukat as Garak's version of Avon. Eep.
But, the differences between Garak and Shrinker are also important.
Shrinker is selfishly motivated. The system gives him the chance to do
what he likes and rewards him for it. He doesn't care what side or what
people have or haven't done.
Garak, OTOH, has multiple motives. His first motivation is always his
love for Cardassia. The rest of his motives seem to change places in his
hierarchy depending. There's his loyalty to Tain, loyalty to the ruling
system (seperate from loyalty to Cardassia), and loyalty to himself. On
top of this, he is capable of loyalty and friendship with others - even
sacrifice on their behalf (such as freeing Odo and helping in a few of
Sisko's errands [although sometimes he may just have been enjoying
showing people back home he still had it]). He's also capable of feeding
them to the wolves.
Oh, and about Garak's exile. I think the episode that suggested he
couldn't go home but had _chosen_ DS9 as the safest place there was for
him got that right. However, I think Garak's 'betrayal' of Tain can be
compared to Blake and Avon.
Imagine, in an AU, if Blake were Tain and, for whatever reasons, if he
were also a staunch supporter of Cardassia instead of against it.
Imagine Garak as Avon. I can't begin to guess what the betrayal was (the
book's idea didn't quite work for me), but I would guess that there was
some scenario involving all Garak's loyalties. I don't know which one he
chose - I don't even know if he actually chose against Tain (heads of the
Obsidian Order only retire with a funeral, Tain retired and lived. Was
some part of that betrayal?). I can see a scenario where Avon acted
against Blake to support what Blake believed in. I can see one where
Avon saved Blake by betraying those ideals - or just saved Blake by
betraying him. Or the other way around, betraying Blake by saving him.
All I'm really sure is that, if the truth were shown behind that episode
where he kept confessing to the 'crime' that got him exiled (he murdered
innocent civilians against the wishes of a friend and partner, he saved
the civilians against the orders of a friend and partner, he let a child
go without interrogating him because he was tired, he set up his friend
only to have his friend set him up first [and says he deserved it because
of the betrayal he'd meant to commit] - oh, and the friend's name was
Elim (spoiler ahead), which turned out to be Garak's real name), that all
of them would have to ring true.
You know, it might be more interesting to have the B7 crew in the DS9
universe
Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:23:54 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: B7/DS9 crossover thing
Message-ID: <200007031324_MC2-AAF7-FEA7@compuserve.com>
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Jacqueline wrote:
>Now Garak torturing Odo was made slightly more
>easily digestible to the audience by the fact that
>Garak apparently did it to make sure that someone
>who might have really done serious damage to Odo
> didn't do it, but once he accepted the job, he didn't
>hold back.
But on the whitewashing side - and I think the script writers were trying
hard to have their cake and eat it here, by depicting torture while trying
to keep him sympathetic - once he'd accepted the job, he needed to produce
results as quickly as possible in case Tain got suspicious and replaced him
with someone more dangerous. And I think he was working on the basis that
*he* would have offered some sort of information, probably invented, in
order to stop the torture, and he was surprised that Odo preferred to
suffer for so long.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 13:33:50 -0400
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Midsummer Night's Dream
Message-ID: <200007031334_MC2-AAF7-FF4B@compuserve.com>
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Judith announced:
>Gareth will be playing Oberon in A Midsummer Night's
>Dream and a part (not yet known which) in 'Dear Brutus'
>a play by JM Barrie.
Dear Brutus? That's interesting, I don't think I've ever heard of a stage
production (I read it years ago, partly because it was based on one of my
favourite quotes). It's got the usual Barrie sentimentality, but I would
like to see it. Will look forward to further details. Looking at the cast
list, I suspect he's Mr Coade.
Harriet
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 09:07:54 +0100
From: "Nyder" <nyder@moore.britishlibrary.net>
To: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>, "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <002001bfe513$6c9b0020$2ec628c3@stx.ox.ac.uk>
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----- Original Message -----
From: Neil Faulkner <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: b7 <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2000 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
> From: Ellynne G. <rilliara@juno.com>
> Oh, and George Formby, a very definite contender. All had their heyday
(or
> Hay day) long before I was born.
I thought Formby was a Cheeky Northerner, not a Cheeky Cockney-- or am I
mistaken?
> Though I think it would also be a mistake (and a grave injustice) to
suggest
> that Nation was stuck in a wartime rut.
I just recently had an article published in "Tides of Time," the Oxford
University Doctor Who Society's zine (http://users.ox.ac.uk/~whosoc/ for
details), in which I took on the general assumption that Nation had the
Nazis, and only the Nazis, in mind when he wrote his Dalek stories. IMO
there are elements there, but there are also elements of other genres
(principally, I argued, the after-the-bomb sci-fi genre), and it seems, if
you look closely enough, that the *later* Dalek writers, Ben Aaronovich,
Eric Saward etc. actually make much more of the Nazi parallel than Nation
did.
Fiona
Fiona Moore
http://redrival.com/nyder/indexx.html
Resist the Host or your Oneness will be Absorbed
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:14:22 EDT
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Message-ID: <5a.7642670.269231fe@aol.com>
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Sally wrote:
>
> Avon OTOH has strong (if erratic) protective instincts, but of the three
> crew members who inspire them most strongly, two of them are Fearless
Leader
> (for the most part as fragile as a battering ram) and the Valkyrie Dayna
> (who would scare the dickens out of any sensible man and the first time
she
> lays eyes on him, slings him over her shoulder and carts him off to a
> deserted cave :-)). Two of the *strongest* people he comes across.
>
> Avon does have this wonderful illogical streak among the cold rationality,
> and it's such *fun* to watch it in action.
Not at all irrational. Neither Fearless Leader or Dayna are physically weak
but both have a tendency to be impulsive, acting before thinking (if they
ever get round to that) and therefore need someone to come along and rescue
them, sweep up the pieces or protect them from their own irrationality.
Perfectly logical. <g>
Morrigan (aka Trish)
"I don't mind rough. It's fatal I'm not too keen on. "
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:10:47 +0100
From: "IC24 mail" <paulgarytaylor@ic24.net>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #168
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Date: 20 June 2000 19:12
Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #168
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:13:40 +0100
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Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #168
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To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se <blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se>
Date: 20 June 2000 19:12
Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #168
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:30:28 EDT
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <3f.6f7e478.269235c4@aol.com>
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Murray wrote:
> You missed one fundamental difference between the Terran Federation and the
> Roman and British Empires: their attitudes towards religion. The Romans
> allowed a wide degree of religious toleration, only intervegning if a
> religion had features that they regarded as particularly objectionable,
> such as human sacrifice. The British consciously followed the Romans, only
> interfering in cases like sutee (the burning of widows).
>
Sigh. Wish that was true but if you were to ask the colonists, they'd have a
different story. Catholicism in Ireland as one example. It cannot be
described as religious toleration if there are penalties for belonging to a
particular religious group.
> The Federation, by contrast, appeared to be hostile to _all_ religion as a
> matter of ideology, and for that reason reminds me more of the Soviet Union
> under Stalin.
I'd agree that the Federation resembles the Soviet Union in objection to all
religion; I wonder if religion was kept as alive in the Federation as the
Russian Orthodox Church managed.
Morrigan (aka Trish)
"I don't mind rough. It's fatal I'm not too keen on. "
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 14:21:13 EDT
From: B7Morrigan@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Greco-Roman comedy (back on topic?)
Message-ID: <14.5c966f7.26923399@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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> > > Calle wrote:
> > >> I think you can fairly say that it has. The June that just ended was,
> > >> at 1037 posts, the second most active month ever (only beaten by
> > >> February 1998, which had 1114 posts).
> >
> > > And how many of those had 'Animals' in the subject line?
> >
> > Of the ones in June 2000, 150 (15 of which were sent by people with
> > "Una" in their name). Of the ones in February 1998, none had "Animals"
> > in the subject line.
>
> I feel validated as a human being.
The other 135 were the rest of us responding to Una's posts.
Morrigan (aka Trish)
"I don't mind rough. It's fatal I'm not too keen on. "
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 19:48:05 +0100
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L]After the revolution (was 'Blake' and beyond)
Message-ID: <018d01bfe51f$3b1ee2d0$0d01a8c0@codex>
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Trish wrote:
> Murray wrote:
>
> > You missed one fundamental difference between the Terran Federation and
the
> > Roman and British Empires: their attitudes towards religion. The Romans
> > allowed a wide degree of religious toleration, only intervegning if a
> > religion had features that they regarded as particularly objectionable,
> > such as human sacrifice. The British consciously followed the Romans,
only
> > interfering in cases like sutee (the burning of widows).
> >
> Sigh. Wish that was true but if you were to ask the colonists, they'd
have a
> different story. Catholicism in Ireland as one example. It cannot be
> described as religious toleration if there are penalties for belonging to
a
> particular religious group.
Although that particular religious intolerance wasn't a split on colonial
lines. There was plenty of intolerance towards indigenous Catholics in
Britain too.
Una
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 16:55:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Sondra Sweigman <sweigman@world.std.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Susan Matthews novels
Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.95.1000703165539.2774D-100000@world.std.com>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Judith mentioned "a wonderful SF novel by Susan Matthews" where
the hero is a surgeon who becomes a torturer and discovers that he
enjoys his work. There are actually a trilogy of such novels:
An Exchange of Hostages, Prisoner of Conscience, and Hour of
Judgment -- all featuring the character of Andrej Kosciusko. But
where Kosciusko enjoys inflicting pain per se (enjoys it sexually),
Garak, I think, simply enjoys the contest of wills with a challenging
adversary. Very different indeed.
BTW, Kosciusko's story does not appear to conclude in Matthews'
3rd novel. Does anyone know if/when a new sequel might be
forthcoming?
Sondra
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 14:16:24 PDT
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Fav episodes
Message-ID: <20000703211624.8386.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Trish wrote:
<Neither Fearless Leader or Dayna are physically weak but both have a
tendency to be impulsive, acting before thinking (if they ever get round to
that) and therefore need someone to come along and rescue them, sweep up the
pieces or protect them from their own irrationality.>
<grin> you realise of course this is also a perfect description of one Del
Tarrant, who Avon is more likely to say 'go right ahead' to than throw a
protective arm around (except in the 'look-after-the-group' bits a la
Terminal). And even Cally has her less-than-responsible moments ...
Whereas the third person Avon occasionally shields (Vila) is about as
impulsive in *that* way as Orac (for many of the same self-serving reasons).
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