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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 00 : Issue 14

Today's Topics:
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill...
	 Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill...
	 [B7L] New frame captures: "Death-Watch"
	 Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill...
	 Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill...
	 Re: [B7L] Too quiet
	 Re: [B7L] Heroes and Brains
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 Re: [B7L] GSP and Oppression
	 [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism)
	 [B7L] Star One & historical situations
	 [B7L] Teleportation?
	 [B7L] haunted house
	 [B7L] valentines day
	 Re: [B7L] socks
	 [B7L] Star One & historical situations
	 [B7L] valentines day
	 Re: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism)
	 Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill...
	 Re: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism)
	 Re: [B7L] Many many people...
	 RE: [B7L] Gallery
	 Re: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism)
	 [B7L] Re: Too Quiet
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Too Quiet
	 Re: [B7L] valentines day
	 Re: [B7L] Too quiet
	 Re: [B7L] Too quiet
	 [B7L] Double Jeopardy???
	 Re: [B7L] socks

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:58:40 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <000f01bf5fb1$a2e48a80$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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Ellynne wrote:
> While I agree large number of well-meaning civilians is heavily implied,
> I never feel like I have enough information to make an argument. It's
> like the WW II bomb argument. To me, the critical element is the bombing
> of civilian targets. _With the information they had then_, the people
> making the decision could be justified in seeing dropping the bomb as
> simply a more efficient, more psychologically devestating form of bombing
> _civilian_ targets. The long term effects of radiation and the nightmare
> possibilities of nuclear war weren't things they had information on. In
> that context, the question was whether destroying a _civilian_ target was
> justified. If it was, then I'd say the decision to drop the bomb was in
> keeping with it.  If it wasn't, more than the two bombs dropped on Japan
> has to be reconsidered.

There are plenty of other questions we could ask about the bombings.  Were
they, for instance, implemented to save *human* lives (by ending the war),
or simply *American* lives (by making a full scale military invasion of
Japan unnecessary).  Whilst we might, if we choose, cognitively acknowledge
that an American life is worth no more than a Japanese life, such lofty
value judgements tend to take a back seat in wartime.  (And one could
counter-argue that an invasion of Japan would not only have killed a lot of
American soldiers but also plenty of Japanese civilians, since anyone who
could walk was being mobilised to defend the country.  Kids with bamboo
spears against Sherman tanks and flamethrowers.)

Were *both* bombings necessary, or was - as some factions of the
anti-nuclear lobby maintain - the Nagasaki bomb dropped primarily to test
it, even though Washington knew that Hirohito was already planning to
surrender?

Was a war with Japan necessary in the first place, or could the US have
negotiated for a limited sphere of influence in the Pacific?

I once knew someone who was enthusiastically pro-Bomb because without
Hiroshima she would never have been born.  Her grandmother was languishing
in a POW camp and would probably have died if Japan hadn't surrendered - the
prisoners were about to be executed as part of the Japanese withdrawal from
Burma.  (And I was left feeling even more enthusiastically anti-Bomb, since
without Hiroshima I would never have had to meet this objectionable
person...)

Issues like this (and Star One) are complex.  Strange how the most complex
issues can provoke the most simple opinions.

> As to Neil's argument about the end justifying the means, that was just
> to provoke response, right?

Only partly.  I've been involved in a number of worthy causes (well, I
thought they were worthy), and I've seen people who rate the cause as more
important than fighting for it and other people who rate the fighting as
more important than the cause.  I've had enough of both.

Neil

"The only good alien is a dead alien" - Ursula LeGuin

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:37:59 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <001001bf5fb1$a3f11880$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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Alison wrote:

> Neil quoted Michael Moorcock
>
> >"The laboured irony, as it were, of the pulp hero or heroine, this deadly
> >levity in the face of genuine experience, which serves not to point up
the
> >dramatic effect of the narrative, but to reduce it - and to make the
> >experience described comfortingly 'unreal' - is the trick of the worst
kind
> >of an escapist author who pretends to be writing about fundamental truths
> >and
> >is in fact telling fundamental lies."
>
> Yes, what a brilliant quote, that's exactly right. I hate that fastidious
> cringing away from reality.

I found this one particularly thought-provoking because it's fairly easy to
find examples in B7.  Several episodes defuse their tensions with a final
(none-too-funny) joke - Children of Auron, Deathwatch, and Rescue spring
immediately to mind.  I'm left feeling uneasy about the wit and humour
peppering the series, including some of the best lines of all (and by some
of the best writers, like Holmes and Boucher).  Are the jokes in the series
'real'?

I remember an incident at work a couple of years ago when a fitter nearly
died after being crushed under a block of steel.  There was some very dark
humour floating around the canteen in the small hours, and we laughed, but
mirthlessly.  The brittleness of the atmosphere was indescribable - at one
point it looked like the shift manager was going to get lynched for
suggesting we started the machines back up.  Nothing in the series even
approaches it.

I'm not suggesting that B7 should be grimly humourless.  Far from it, humour
thrives under stressful circumstances.  But I'm not convinced it's the kind
of humour that ends up in the scripts (and fan stories, including my own).
People under stress generate a kind of humour that tries to defuse the
stress, generally very spontaneous, often very simple if not outright crude,
and not infrequently incomprehensible to an outsider (who may not even
recognise that a joke has been cracked).  The humour in a script is there
primarily to entertain the audience (who, as viewers rather than active
participants, are in a way outsiders by default), so it has been carefully
prepared if not blatantly contrived.  Our attention is called to the wit of
the joker (both the actor and the writer) rather than to the joke itself,
whereas in real life the balance tends to be the other way.

Thinking about it further (I'm slapping all this down on the fly, I've got
my laundry to do), it may be that script humour deliberately seeks not to
play the joke on the audience, who are merely observers, whereas RL humour
often (perhaps even usually) victimises someone, often quite savagely, who
is then expected to laugh along with everyone else.  Script humour is more
on the level of dinner party wit, with its tacit rules of non-engagement.

Neil

"The only good alien is a dead alien" - Ursula LeGuin

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:50:37 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill...
Message-ID: <027f01bf5fb3$56958f10$0d01a8c0@hedge>
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Joanne wrote:

> Anyone have an idea of just how tall Stephen Greif is? I ask, because I
> don't imagine that Simon Rouse, at the very least, and Christopher Ellison
> are all that short, yet Greif seemed to tower above everyone.

Well, from where I stand (on my toes, usually) everybody seems tall. I don't
usually think of Simon Rouse as tall, more - well - *fat*, although thinking
back to 'Kinda' he is pretty tall.


> The GITHOG people will be overjoyed to know he was extremely recognisable!

Hurrah!


Una

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:21:59 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill...
Message-ID: <20000116002200.34686.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Una wrote:

<Well, from where I stand (on my toes, usually) everybody
seems tall.>

I wouldn't...the only people over 13 that I've *ever* met
who are shorter than me are my own relatives...

Does anyone know how tall Our Heroes actually are? I know
Tarrant and Gan are, and Vila is more than he seems (his
Uriah Heep stance notwithstanding), but even the women seem
to me to be above average (of course, this could be the
shoes.)


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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:27:25 -0600
From: Lisa Williams <lcw@dallas.net>
To: (Recipient list suppressed)
Subject: [B7L] New frame captures: "Death-Watch"
Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000115182033.00b0e460@mail.dallas.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed

I have just added "Death-Watch" to my frame capture library. 205 images in 
this set (quite a lot, but there were a lot of scene changes in this one.)

I'd like to have a word with whoever designed the lighting for this 
episode. Lots of weird colored lights, and I *hate* weird lighting; makes 
it a real bitch to try to color-balance the frame captures.

The building where Deeta and Vinni had their confrontation was also used as 
a CI5 training ground in "The Professionals". I kept expecting them to come 
round a corner and run smack into Bodie and Doyle.

Reference Vinni: if you were designing an android to win fights of this 
kind, wouldn't you be inclined to give it very sharp hearing? Not wildly 
superhuman, perhaps (that could arouse suspicion), but pretty damned good? 
Both the Tarrants were able to get the drop on Vinni by the simple 
expedient of sneaking up behind him, which struck me as strange.

The B7 frame captures are at http://www.lcw.simplenet.com/b7lib.html

	- Lisa
--
_____________________________________________________________
  Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com
  Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/
  From Eroica With Love: http://eroica.simplenet.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 00:41:49 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill...
Message-ID: <02ae01bf5fba$81aa9860$0d01a8c0@hedge>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Sally wrote:

> Una wrote:
>
> <Well, from where I stand (on my toes, usually) everybody
> seems tall.>
>
> I wouldn't...the only people over 13 that I've *ever* met
> who are shorter than me are my own relatives...

I'm 5ft. Will you show me yours now?


> Does anyone know how tall Our Heroes actually are? I know
> Tarrant and Gan are, and Vila is more than he seems (his
> Uriah Heep stance notwithstanding), but even the women seem
> to me to be above average (of course, this could be the
> shoes.)

Realizing that Michael Keating was actually slightly taller than Paul Darrow
was one of the biggest surprises of my life.


Una

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:46:57 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill...
Message-ID: <20000116024657.60513.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Una:
<I'm 5ft. Will you show me yours now?>

5ft and 1/2 inch. You win.

'Nother thought that occurred to me - those chair/backrests
on the flight deck look uncomfortable enough, but can you
*imagine* what they would feel like to people of our height?
Avon's backache would be nothing to mine (and Vila's *complaints*
would be less than nothing to what I'm like when in pain.)





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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:51:16 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Too quiet
Message-ID: <20000116025116.60768.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Reading through the posts, I have realised one point which
colours *my* views...a point Mistral makes: <I can only
address civilian deaths in wars and rebellions.>

It's that word *civilian*. Nearly all wars in the 20th century
treat civilians as no more sancrosanct than (conscripted)
soldiers - something that, as I understand it, did come in
with Sherman in the American Civil war. As he pointed out,
the *adult* civilians (if I remember rightly, 'the women')
of the South were just as enthusiastic for secession, pushed
just as hard for the war, so he did *not* see them as non-
combatants. Which I do think is fair enough; a civilian who
supports other people fighting for his cause is no more
innocent than a soldier conscripted willingly or not to do
the actual fighting.

In Nazi Germany, the case was even more pointed, in that the
average happy little German citizen wholeheartedly supported
the criminal (but elected) regime that was was killing *other* civilians in 
a war of conquest. So the Allies - in a harsh but understandable decision - 
treated these civilians as the enemy
as well.

Do we believe that the people who actively support Federation
rule without actually being in the military are somehow more sancrosanct 
than the soldiers who are fighting for it? *Are*
they the people Blake is fighting for? Not likely. As I see
him, he doesn't much *care* about them...he believes (whether justifiably or 
not) that most of the population under
Federation rule are there under coercion, and *they* are the
ones that matter to him. Obviously, this is a judgement call -
if you disagree, then his actions are totally wrong.

And the people who do matter?

Part - the most important part - of the Allied bombing war
covered military targets in occupied countries; dissenters
and resisters, collaborators, or neutral, died in these raids.
As I've said before, if you consider Star One a fair military
target (and I do - the Federation's rule by 'expansion and
conquest', and its methods of enforcing that conquest, do not
add up to a *legitimate* government in my mind, though it
may have been one long, long ago) the two cases are similar
enough that one cannot be condemned without the other.

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:53:22 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Heroes and Brains
Message-ID: <20000116025322.61514.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Ellynne wrote: <So, was Avon a hero (or anti-hero) in the making
from day one or was he another case of the fans seeing something
good and pushing it?>

And Penny:<He was forced into the hero role by the departure of
Blake. I personally prefer him as snarky Spocky second-in-command.>

Absolutely (though I'm not so sure about the second-in-command bit).
There are plenty of anti-heroes that are cold-blooded bastards...
*ours* was brattish in the bargain <g>.

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:54:57 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <20000116025457.61307.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

Julia wrote:
<Except, in B7 they're not. We've been dissecting _Rumours of
Death_ on The other List this week. One of the things I like about
that episode is that we are shown the faces of the little people on the 
other side.>

I've read diary extracts from people in both of the majot totalitarian
regimes that came as an absolute shock - these whole-hearted
supporters of their governments' actions (the arrests and executions,
the invasions of other countries, etc) were startlingly difficult to
dislike personally when you got involved in the little details of their
lives. I even felt *sorry* for some of the Germans, even though I
could never (civilians as they were) think of them as innocent victims...

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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:26:42 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <20000116032642.49590.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

After Susan Beth wrote: <More specifically, has anyone ever seen
the script for the episode?  Is that how the line was written?>

Lisa answered: <I've got a copy of it. Her line in the script is, "A
lot of people will die without Star One.">

Oh, well, crystal clarity and exactitude is always nice to have...
<g> We can stop arguing now, I take it?



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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:27:40 PST
From: "Sally Manton" <smanton@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] GSP and Oppression
Message-ID: <20000116032740.64741.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

TigerM wrote:
<Nah, that's just demons stealing them from the dryer.  I'll leave
it to you to figure out what the forces of darkness want with all those 
unmatched socks.>

I think they store them at my house...I just thought they bred in the 
cupboard, like wrire hangars.


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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:28:40 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism)
Message-ID: <388148F8.119B@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I believe the hobbits nearly froze to death, not only on the mountains,
but in the inclement weather when Strider was trying to get them to
Riverdale. 
Most of the time they had pack animals or boats loaded with dense
nutritive foods. They had a survival expert with them (Aragorn). He,
Legolas and Gimli I believe set up camp most of the time they were
travelling.
The whole story was told from the hobbits' pov, and they had incredible
luck finding provisions and/or protectors along the way. If Aragorn had
been the narrator, doubtless the realism would have been greater.

They had bad weather, hypothermia, wild animals, food-gathering, and the
search for water; forced marches to get through hostile country, the
loss of a pack animal, and the need for fire. What's the problem?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:57:53 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Star One & historical situations
Message-ID: <38814FD1.1D6C@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> To give you some specific examples: In 1939, carpenter Georg Elser tried to kill 
> Hitler with a self constructed bomb. He didn't even belong to a group, he was 
> alone in making this decision. Since Hitler unfortunately left the inn half an 
> hour earlier than planned, he missed the bomb which went off eight minutes after 
> he had gone and killed quite a lot of civilians (and SA members) who were in 
> that inn. As Elser had known it would, but he was prepared to sacrifice those 
> lives if it meant Hitler would die as well. In making this decision, he wasn't 
> supported by anyone, he took that right much in the same way as Blake did. Was 
> he wrong?
> 
Yes. An assassination planned that would target Hitler alone not only
would have spared civilian lives but ALSO might not have missed the
intended target!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:09:20 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Teleportation?
Message-ID: <38815280.390C@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

>  >And my socks have perfected
> >  >teleportation.  Well, one in every pair seems to have...
> >  
> >  I'm pretty sure that particular futuristic phenomenon was in existence even
> >  23 years ago.
> 
> Nah, that's just demons stealing them from the dryer.  I'll leave it to you 
> to figure out what the forces of darkness want with all those unmatched 
> socks. 
> 
> Tiger M
Making a new dress for Servalan.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:18:59 -0800
From: Pat Patera <patpatera@netzero.net>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] haunted house
Message-ID: <388162D3.26EF22CB@netzero.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Judith wrote: we have different definitions of Gallery.

me: oh. never mind.

but my feverish brain got to thinking, if *I* had screen capture, I
would build a haunted house / trick 'n treat B7 page to my geocities
halloween site: did anyone already do this?

(OK, I'm off season, but it is the very best holiday of the year)
Imagine the crew gone trick 'n treating in costume:

Avon (Shadow) Jedi Knight
Servalan (Gold) Sith Lord
Blake (Gauda Prime) Bounty Hunter
Travis (Voices ) The Mummy
Cally (Sarcopogus) Queen
Jenna (Keeper) Princess
Tarrant (Sarcopogus) Spanish Inquisition
Gan (Animals) Og
Vila (Killer) Cockaroach
Dayna (Aftermath) Cupid
Orac (Gambit) Rubic's Cube
Soolin - aw, some people have no sense of humor and refuse to dress up
on Halloween
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Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:24:06 -0800
From: Pat Patera <patpatera@netzero.net>
To: B7 Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] valentines day
Message-ID: <38816406.292A87CB@netzero.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

OK, so Halloween is over, but what about a site showcasing the crew for
valentines day?
Pairing pretty pictures of:

Blake & Jenna (early eps)
Travis & Mutoid (Duel)
Avon & Anna (Rumours)
Servie & Jarvik (Harvest)
Sleer & DeadMan (Sand)
Vila & Kerril (City)
Tarrant & Zeeona (Warlord)
Dayna & Justin (Animals) *gag*
Soolin & Dorian (Rescue)
Cally & Zelda (Children)
Krantor & Toise (Gambit)

yeah, Soolin and Avon make a pretty pair, but it was never canon *sigh*
Pat P
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 02:46:00 EST
From: Tigerm1019@aol.com
To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] socks
Message-ID: <29.5df9ab.25b2d138@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 01/15/2000 4:26:19 PM Central Standard Time, 
Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk writes:

> For goodness sake, hasn't anyone here heard of conservation of odd-sock 
> parity?
>  
>  It's *physics*, not demons.

Well, since my socks never seem to achieve odd-sock equilibrium, I've 
concluded it's demons.  They steal pens and paperclips too.  I think Helen 
may be right about Servalan's new gown. ;-)

Tiger M

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:01:43 +0100
From: Angria@t-online.de (Tanja Kinkel)
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Star One & historical situations
Message-ID: <129kd5-1BO8GmC@fwd04.sul.t-online.de>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT

Me: 
> > To give you some specific examples: In 1939, carpenter Georg Elser tried to
>  kill 
> > Hitler with a self constructed bomb. (snip)
>  Was 
> > he wrong?

Helen: 
> Yes. An assassination planned that would target Hitler alone not only
> would have spared civilian lives but ALSO might not have missed the
> intended target!

Rigggght. And how precisely would you plan an assassination that would target 
Hitler alone if you were, like Elser was, a civilian who had to gather all his 
knowledge about Hitler's whereabouts from the newspapers (which were 
state-controlled and thuse prone to deliver limited information only anyway)? 
Besides, Elser wasn't exactly rich and able to to travel wherever he wanted. He 
had to do it on a occasion when Hitler was in Munich (Elser's hometown). Under 
the circumstances, he did the best he could and would have succeeded if only 
Hitler hadn't cut his speech short. (As he didn't succeed, he was arrested, 
spend years in a concentration camp and was executed in 1945 shortly before the 
Allies arrived.) 

About the only people who could have killed Hitler in a situation where they 
were alone with him (thus sure that noone else would be hurt) were members of 
the top Nazi hierarchy, and they, of course, had no motive to do so.

Tanja

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:51:06 +0000
From: Nicola Collie <nicola@dunedinite.free-online.co.uk>
To: Lysator <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] valentines day
Message-Id: <l03130300b4a751299432@[212.159.73.161]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Pat P said:
>OK, so Halloween is over,

Awww, so where am I supposed to put this pic of Avon in his matador outfit?
(Deathwatch)

> but what about a site showcasing the crew for
>valentines day?

There are plenty of shots of people smooching. In addition to those already
mentioned:
Avon and Servalan (Aftermath, Deathwatch)
Avon and Dayna (Aftermath)
Avon and Cally-Alien (Sarcophagus)
Tarrant and Servalan (Sand)

More cute couples (don't recall if they actually kissed on screen)
Tel Varon and wife (The Way Back)
Egrorian and Pinder (Orbit) <duck>

And there are a few suggestive looks between Egrorian and Avon, and
Egrorian and Vila ;)

>yeah, Soolin and Avon make a pretty pair, but it was never canon *sigh*

Never stopped us before :)

Nicola

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:06:10 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism)
Message-ID: <015201bf6012$f492ea50$0d01a8c0@hedge>
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Helen wrote


> I believe the hobbits nearly froze to death, not only on the mountains,
> but in the inclement weather when Strider was trying to get them to
> Riverdale.
> Most of the time they had pack animals or boats loaded with dense
> nutritive foods. They had a survival expert with them (Aragorn). He,
> Legolas and Gimli I believe set up camp most of the time they were
> travelling.
> The whole story was told from the hobbits' pov, and they had incredible
> luck finding provisions and/or protectors along the way. If Aragorn had
> been the narrator, doubtless the realism would have been greater.
>
> They had bad weather, hypothermia, wild animals, food-gathering, and the
> search for water; forced marches to get through hostile country, the
> loss of a pack animal, and the need for fire. What's the problem?

Bilbo and the dwarves nearly starve to death in 'The Hobbit' as well, which
is a kid's book.


Una

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:19:06 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill...
Message-ID: <017601bf6013$90cb9750$0d01a8c0@hedge>
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Sally wrote:

> Una:
> <I'm 5ft. Will you show me yours now?>
>
> 5ft and 1/2 inch. You win.

I spent three years at 4ft 11 and 1/2 inches until my feeble metabolism
decided that it owed me another half-inch, thank Christ.


> 'Nother thought that occurred to me - those chair/backrests
> on the flight deck look uncomfortable enough, but can you
> *imagine* what they would feel like to people of our height?
> Avon's backache would be nothing to mine (and Vila's *complaints*
> would be less than nothing to what I'm like when in pain.)

Brrr... Don't even mention it. Our brand spanking new cinema is agony for m
because the bit that makes everyone else's neck comfy sticks pushes my head
forward so I sit with a hunch for the whole film. Ouch!


Una

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:53:05 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism)
Message-ID: <01bf01bf6016$d6aef340$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
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Helen said -


>I believe the hobbits nearly froze to death, not only on the mountains,
>but in the inclement weather when Strider was trying to get them to
>Riverdale. <snip>

I haven't read any of the Tolkein books since I was a teenager (for those
who don't know me - long, long ago) so I'm really not in a position to
defend what I said. I was just recounting the impression I was left with
after reading LotR: I was somehow frustrated by it, in a way that I'm not
frustrated by Blakes 7.

I must also say that the whole 'survival in the wood' thing was a bit of a
digression from the point about the deflecting use of humour. Which is one
area where I think B7 can go wrong.

So - probably too big and diffuse a topic with too many caveats to deal with
right now

Alison

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:15:51 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people...
Message-ID: <gUR7uMBn+Pg4Ewtu@jajones.demon.co.uk>

In message <01b801bf5fa7$9b1b54a0$94a801d5@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk>,
Andrew Ellis <Andrew.D.Ellis@btinternet.com> writes
>From: Julia Jones
>
>>I am not aware that there was large scale compulsory use of pacifying
>>drugs in the Soviet Union. Vodka doesn't count, as its use was merely
>>state-subsidised rather than mandatory.
>>>
>
>
>And the Soviet Union didn't last as long as the Federation. (But I also
>disagree on the WIDESPREAD use of pacifying drugs pre season four).
>
It's unclear what's going on in the colony worlds, although I doubt it
would have been practical there. But it is the basic method of control
in the dome(s) on Earth, the heart of the federation, and I'd speculate
that this was one of the reasons they stayed in the domes.

And this is probably going to be my last post on the subject for a day
or two (doubtless to everyone's relief) - too much typing, and i've hurt
my hands again:-(
-- 
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
        The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 13:18:39 +0100
From: Jacqueline Thijsen <jacqueline.thijsen@cmg.nl>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: RE: [B7L] Gallery
Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99FAF0738@NL-ARN-MAIL01>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"

Julia wrote:

> <snicker>
> After the "Which loo do I use" incident at Redemption, I'm sure the
> gallery loos need a separate opening ceremony of their own.

What do you mean, "Which loo do I use"? Servalan always uses the executive
loo, of course. So Judith should really have one of those added to the loos,
in case the supreme commander chooses to visit.

Yes I know she became a president and then a commissioner in seasons 3 and
4. But somehow I've always thought the title of supreme commander suited her
best. Must be the 'supreme' bit of the title, which most of her cronies used
to emphasise so beautifully.

Jacqueline

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:21:46 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism)
Message-ID: <01db01bf601c$43e69940$0d01a8c0@hedge>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Alison wrote:

> Helen said -
>
>
> >I believe the hobbits nearly froze to death, not only on the mountains,
> >but in the inclement weather when Strider was trying to get them to
> >Riverdale. <snip>
>
> I haven't read any of the Tolkein books since I was a teenager (for those
> who don't know me - long, long ago) so I'm really not in a position to
> defend what I said.

The moral of the story being never to take on glassy-eyed obsessives on
their home turf! ;)


> I was just recounting the impression I was left with
> after reading LotR: I was somehow frustrated by it, in a way that I'm not
> frustrated by Blakes 7.

No, I know *exactly* what you mean about that sense of frustration. I get it
from most other fantasy, and I get it from a lot of TVSF (big three
excluded). The sense of some key component lacking, or finding that the
'flavour' of a universe doesn't taste right.


Una

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 08:03:26 -0500
From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Re: Too Quiet
Message-ID: <200001160803_MC2-94EB-AE0@compuserve.com>
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Though this thread seems to heading towards too noisy now...

Kathryn wrote, re legitimacy of opposing sides:
>But where do the parties in a civil war get their authority,
> their legitimacy?   In a case where it's a battle for two 
>different contenders for a throne, then both sides get
> their legitimacy from whichever heir they're backing. 

In practice, it's still a case of which claimant wins.  I have a very hazy
memory, but can't find a source for it now, that Henry Tudor backdated his
reign to the day before the Battle of Bosworth, so that all the men who
thought they were fighting for the rightful King (Richard III) were
suddenly turned into rebels.  This always puzzled me, as if Henry wished to
imply that Richard was never the rightful King, why not backdate his own
reign a couple of years, instead of a couple of days?  (OK, it was probably
to do with the uncertainty over when/if Edward V had actually died.) 
Sorry, this is getting wildly off-topic.

But the point, as it seems to me, is that a "rebel" can declare that the
"legitimate" government has forfeited any authority by its own actions (in
the Federation's case, murder of its citizens etc).  In fact, Blake could
declare himself a provisional government in exile, with the promise of
elections as soon as practicable.  I don't know why he doesn't take this
line, but suspect he's never really comfortable with the idea of being in
government himself (can't blame him) - see his reluctance in Voice from the
Past, even when his mind isn't quite his own: I think that's his own
personality breaking through.

Harriet

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 13:24:14 -0000
From: "Una McCormack" <una@q-research.connectfree.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Too Quiet
Message-ID: <023101bf6025$00482dd0$0d01a8c0@hedge>
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Harriet wrote:

> In fact, Blake could
> declare himself a provisional government in exile, with the promise of
> elections as soon as practicable.

Ooh, that's an interesting idea. I'm going to swipe that shamelessly for the
story I'm plotting.


Una

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:13:10 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] valentines day
Message-ID: <38816F85.567A46F6@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Pat P wrote:

> OK, so Halloween is over, but what about a site showcasing the crew for
> valentines day?

> yeah, Soolin and Avon make a pretty pair, but it was never canon *sigh*

So use the back-to-back picture from Gold. Caption it
'Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places'

Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
                              --Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:06:59 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Too quiet
Message-ID: <38816E13.54449E0D@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Andrew Ellis wrote:

> Mistral said, of Avon chosing Vila in Orbit....
>
> >For
> >that reason, he would need someone whose reactions he could
> >predict, and control if necessary.
> >
>
> I don't think that Vila was that subservient. He thought before he acted. He
> thought well. And he looked out for his own back (unlike some other rash,
> impetuous characters).

Ah. I never think of Vila as subservient. But in any close
relationship one partner is dominant (although it sometimes
trades off, in the more equal ones.) I don't think you can
really say that in A-V, Vila is the dominant one. 

Grins,
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
                              --Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:01:23 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Too quiet
Message-ID: <3881F961.EBB625FA@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Kathryn Andersen wrote:

> Hi Mistral!  Glad to see you're back. I'm back too.

Hurrah! <bounce> Naughty computers.

> > I'm afraid I can't agree that rebel leaders, however righteous
> > their causes may be, have the same range of options open to
> > them that legitimate governments do, with regard to civilian
> > populations.
>
> And yet you said elsewhere (in another post) that the *legality* of
> something is not a factor in deciding whether or not it is right to
> do. (When you were responding to Neil's response to the argument about
> the-end-justifies-the-means).

Close. I said I don't care about the law *for the law's sake*.
I care about right and wrong. Biblical principle is to obey my
government until doing so forces me to do evil. I choose to
follow that principle. If I didn't so choose, however, legality
would simply be a convenience or an inconvenience, depending.

Please note, I don't expect Blake to apply that standard.

> I'm just beginning to wonder if the difference between a "civil war"
> and a "rebellion" is just as semantically slippery as the difference
> between a "freedom fighter" and a "terrorist", as we've discussed here
> many a time before.

Perhaps. But the example originally used, the US Civil War, isn't
slippery, because the south had a constitutional right to secede.

> But where do the parties in a civil war get their authority, their
> legitimacy?   In a case where it's a battle for two different
> contenders for a throne, then both sides get their legitimacy from
> whichever heir they're backing.  But what about other cases?  I'm
> afraid I'm not a student of history, so I don't know.

I don't think history is the place to look. I think the way to solve
this sort of thing is to find the underlying principle at work. When
you get basic enough, a solution appears. Using specific examples
simply obfuscates things.

Legitimacy of government is a tricky one, though. I've been
studying and discussing that one IRL for two or three years, and
still haven't sorted out what I think the basic principle is. As far
as discussing Star One goes, I've made two general assumptions:
One, that the Federation was a legitimate government originally,
and Two, that Blake, at least, has legitimate cause to rebel.

> The people
> where there is a government making that decision, have already
> implicitly granted their consent, wheras with a rebel, they have no
> way of doing so.  So we have an implicit consent, versus an unknown.

Yep. That's what I've been trying to say. Not expecting anyone
to agree, but to see where I think the difference is. It's a *serious*
matter to withdraw your allegiance from your government and
become a rebel. IMHO to force someone else to do that, or
assume they would if you could ask them to, is wrong.

> But even so, surely an action has a rightness or wrongness in itself?

Sure. And killing others, without the authority to do so, is wrong.
War confers the authority of the government. Rebellion doesn't.

> The end does not justify the means, no, I agree with Mistral there,
> but sometimes one has to choose the lesser of two evils.

<shocked look> No. Rarely, if ever. Sometimes, two unpleasants.
But almost always in such a situation, you're overlooking a third
(or fourth, etc.) option.

For example: Seize Star One. Give Orac and Avon a little time to
analyze the system. Notify rebel leaders such as Avalon and
Kasabi's replacement of your plans. At a preset time, cut off
military and civil services. Give an appropriate notice (48 hrs?)
that weather and traffic control, etc., will be cut off. Cut them
off. Destroy Star One.

That's one plan that might still cause crippling disruption to the
government and minimize loss of noncombatants. Blake is lots
smarter than I am, he could probably think of a better one if he
were willing to slow down a little.

> As for alternatives, Blake had *already* taken the peaceful protest,
> civil disobedience route, *and it didn't work*.

Er, no. It just hadn't worked *yet*. And I'm not saying he
couldn't use violence after a fashion; just that as a rebel, he
has to be careful of his targets. Else he becomes a terrorist.

> Surely it is even
> more wrong to kill your followers and achieve *nothing*, making all
> those deaths a pointless waste?

Blake's not killing his followers; they're laying down their lives
for something that's important to them. They have that right.
I don't think you can equate voluntary sacrifice to the deliberate
killing of noncombatants.

Apart from that, they did achieve a few things, for example,
saving Albion.

> I think that is one thing that was
> knawing at Blake - that he didn't want it all to have been for
> nothing.

Which means they'd be dying for Blake's doubts and frustrations.
Not really something I'd like to die for.

Cheers,
Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
                              --Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:15:26 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Double Jeopardy???
Message-ID: <3881FCAD.EAD5A729@ptinet.net>
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Something's been nagging at me about Gan for a couple of days.
Breakdown makes it seem as if installing a limiter might be a
tricky, expensive process. Why did they put one in Gan if they
were just going to ship him off to a penal colony? Do you suppose
he committed another crime later? Or did he have some important
status where he had to remain on Earth for a time, say, to train a
job replacement, before being shipped out? Who's thought about
this?

Curious Mistral
--
"Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!"
                              --Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:40:58 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] socks
Message-ID: <008301bf604a$c130a3e0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
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	charset="iso-8859-1"
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> For goodness sake, hasn't anyone here heard of conservation of odd-sock
parity?
>
> It's *physics*, not demons.

This might explain why people avoid me whenever I wear a loud jumper.  It's
the Pulloveri Exclusion Principle.

(WHY are they called 'jumpers'?  Mine never jump.  My socks - at least the
remaining ones - are reported to have crawled around by themselves on
occasion.  But the jumpers just lie there.  And I know they're not doing any
leaping when my back's turned, unless they know I'm watching them through
the keyhole.)

Neil

"The only good alien is a dead alien" - Ursula LeGuin

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End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #14
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