From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V00 #14 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume00/14 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 00 : Issue 14 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Many many people... Re: [B7L] Many many people... Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill... Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill... [B7L] New frame captures: "Death-Watch" Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill... Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill... Re: [B7L] Too quiet Re: [B7L] Heroes and Brains Re: [B7L] Many many people... Re: [B7L] Many many people... Re: [B7L] GSP and Oppression [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism) [B7L] Star One & historical situations [B7L] Teleportation? [B7L] haunted house [B7L] valentines day Re: [B7L] socks [B7L] Star One & historical situations [B7L] valentines day Re: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism) Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill... Re: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism) Re: [B7L] Many many people... RE: [B7L] Gallery Re: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism) [B7L] Re: Too Quiet Re: [B7L] Re: Too Quiet Re: [B7L] valentines day Re: [B7L] Too quiet Re: [B7L] Too quiet [B7L] Double Jeopardy??? Re: [B7L] socks ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 11:58:40 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people... Message-ID: <000f01bf5fb1$a2e48a80$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ellynne wrote: > While I agree large number of well-meaning civilians is heavily implied, > I never feel like I have enough information to make an argument. It's > like the WW II bomb argument. To me, the critical element is the bombing > of civilian targets. _With the information they had then_, the people > making the decision could be justified in seeing dropping the bomb as > simply a more efficient, more psychologically devestating form of bombing > _civilian_ targets. The long term effects of radiation and the nightmare > possibilities of nuclear war weren't things they had information on. In > that context, the question was whether destroying a _civilian_ target was > justified. If it was, then I'd say the decision to drop the bomb was in > keeping with it. If it wasn't, more than the two bombs dropped on Japan > has to be reconsidered. There are plenty of other questions we could ask about the bombings. Were they, for instance, implemented to save *human* lives (by ending the war), or simply *American* lives (by making a full scale military invasion of Japan unnecessary). Whilst we might, if we choose, cognitively acknowledge that an American life is worth no more than a Japanese life, such lofty value judgements tend to take a back seat in wartime. (And one could counter-argue that an invasion of Japan would not only have killed a lot of American soldiers but also plenty of Japanese civilians, since anyone who could walk was being mobilised to defend the country. Kids with bamboo spears against Sherman tanks and flamethrowers.) Were *both* bombings necessary, or was - as some factions of the anti-nuclear lobby maintain - the Nagasaki bomb dropped primarily to test it, even though Washington knew that Hirohito was already planning to surrender? Was a war with Japan necessary in the first place, or could the US have negotiated for a limited sphere of influence in the Pacific? I once knew someone who was enthusiastically pro-Bomb because without Hiroshima she would never have been born. Her grandmother was languishing in a POW camp and would probably have died if Japan hadn't surrendered - the prisoners were about to be executed as part of the Japanese withdrawal from Burma. (And I was left feeling even more enthusiastically anti-Bomb, since without Hiroshima I would never have had to meet this objectionable person...) Issues like this (and Star One) are complex. Strange how the most complex issues can provoke the most simple opinions. > As to Neil's argument about the end justifying the means, that was just > to provoke response, right? Only partly. I've been involved in a number of worthy causes (well, I thought they were worthy), and I've seen people who rate the cause as more important than fighting for it and other people who rate the fighting as more important than the cause. I've had enough of both. Neil "The only good alien is a dead alien" - Ursula LeGuin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:37:59 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people... Message-ID: <001001bf5fb1$a3f11880$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison wrote: > Neil quoted Michael Moorcock > > >"The laboured irony, as it were, of the pulp hero or heroine, this deadly > >levity in the face of genuine experience, which serves not to point up the > >dramatic effect of the narrative, but to reduce it - and to make the > >experience described comfortingly 'unreal' - is the trick of the worst kind > >of an escapist author who pretends to be writing about fundamental truths > >and > >is in fact telling fundamental lies." > > Yes, what a brilliant quote, that's exactly right. I hate that fastidious > cringing away from reality. I found this one particularly thought-provoking because it's fairly easy to find examples in B7. Several episodes defuse their tensions with a final (none-too-funny) joke - Children of Auron, Deathwatch, and Rescue spring immediately to mind. I'm left feeling uneasy about the wit and humour peppering the series, including some of the best lines of all (and by some of the best writers, like Holmes and Boucher). Are the jokes in the series 'real'? I remember an incident at work a couple of years ago when a fitter nearly died after being crushed under a block of steel. There was some very dark humour floating around the canteen in the small hours, and we laughed, but mirthlessly. The brittleness of the atmosphere was indescribable - at one point it looked like the shift manager was going to get lynched for suggesting we started the machines back up. Nothing in the series even approaches it. I'm not suggesting that B7 should be grimly humourless. Far from it, humour thrives under stressful circumstances. But I'm not convinced it's the kind of humour that ends up in the scripts (and fan stories, including my own). People under stress generate a kind of humour that tries to defuse the stress, generally very spontaneous, often very simple if not outright crude, and not infrequently incomprehensible to an outsider (who may not even recognise that a joke has been cracked). The humour in a script is there primarily to entertain the audience (who, as viewers rather than active participants, are in a way outsiders by default), so it has been carefully prepared if not blatantly contrived. Our attention is called to the wit of the joker (both the actor and the writer) rather than to the joke itself, whereas in real life the balance tends to be the other way. Thinking about it further (I'm slapping all this down on the fly, I've got my laundry to do), it may be that script humour deliberately seeks not to play the joke on the audience, who are merely observers, whereas RL humour often (perhaps even usually) victimises someone, often quite savagely, who is then expected to laugh along with everyone else. Script humour is more on the level of dinner party wit, with its tacit rules of non-engagement. Neil "The only good alien is a dead alien" - Ursula LeGuin ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:50:37 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill... Message-ID: <027f01bf5fb3$56958f10$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joanne wrote: > Anyone have an idea of just how tall Stephen Greif is? I ask, because I > don't imagine that Simon Rouse, at the very least, and Christopher Ellison > are all that short, yet Greif seemed to tower above everyone. Well, from where I stand (on my toes, usually) everybody seems tall. I don't usually think of Simon Rouse as tall, more - well - *fat*, although thinking back to 'Kinda' he is pretty tall. > The GITHOG people will be overjoyed to know he was extremely recognisable! Hurrah! Una ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 16:21:59 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill... Message-ID: <20000116002200.34686.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Una wrote: I wouldn't...the only people over 13 that I've *ever* met who are shorter than me are my own relatives... Does anyone know how tall Our Heroes actually are? I know Tarrant and Gan are, and Vila is more than he seems (his Uriah Heep stance notwithstanding), but even the women seem to me to be above average (of course, this could be the shoes.) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:27:25 -0600 From: Lisa Williams To: (Recipient list suppressed) Subject: [B7L] New frame captures: "Death-Watch" Message-Id: <4.2.2.20000115182033.00b0e460@mail.dallas.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I have just added "Death-Watch" to my frame capture library. 205 images in this set (quite a lot, but there were a lot of scene changes in this one.) I'd like to have a word with whoever designed the lighting for this episode. Lots of weird colored lights, and I *hate* weird lighting; makes it a real bitch to try to color-balance the frame captures. The building where Deeta and Vinni had their confrontation was also used as a CI5 training ground in "The Professionals". I kept expecting them to come round a corner and run smack into Bodie and Doyle. Reference Vinni: if you were designing an android to win fights of this kind, wouldn't you be inclined to give it very sharp hearing? Not wildly superhuman, perhaps (that could arouse suspicion), but pretty damned good? Both the Tarrants were able to get the drop on Vinni by the simple expedient of sneaking up behind him, which struck me as strange. The B7 frame captures are at http://www.lcw.simplenet.com/b7lib.html - Lisa -- _____________________________________________________________ Lisa Williams: lcw@dallas.net or lwilliams@raytheon.com Lisa's Video Frame Capture Library: http://lcw.simplenet.com/ From Eroica With Love: http://eroica.simplenet.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 00:41:49 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill... Message-ID: <02ae01bf5fba$81aa9860$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally wrote: > Una wrote: > > seems tall.> > > I wouldn't...the only people over 13 that I've *ever* met > who are shorter than me are my own relatives... I'm 5ft. Will you show me yours now? > Does anyone know how tall Our Heroes actually are? I know > Tarrant and Gan are, and Vila is more than he seems (his > Uriah Heep stance notwithstanding), but even the women seem > to me to be above average (of course, this could be the > shoes.) Realizing that Michael Keating was actually slightly taller than Paul Darrow was one of the biggest surprises of my life. Una ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:46:57 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill... Message-ID: <20000116024657.60513.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Una: 5ft and 1/2 inch. You win. 'Nother thought that occurred to me - those chair/backrests on the flight deck look uncomfortable enough, but can you *imagine* what they would feel like to people of our height? Avon's backache would be nothing to mine (and Vila's *complaints* would be less than nothing to what I'm like when in pain.) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:51:16 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Too quiet Message-ID: <20000116025116.60768.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Reading through the posts, I have realised one point which colours *my* views...a point Mistral makes: It's that word *civilian*. Nearly all wars in the 20th century treat civilians as no more sancrosanct than (conscripted) soldiers - something that, as I understand it, did come in with Sherman in the American Civil war. As he pointed out, the *adult* civilians (if I remember rightly, 'the women') of the South were just as enthusiastic for secession, pushed just as hard for the war, so he did *not* see them as non- combatants. Which I do think is fair enough; a civilian who supports other people fighting for his cause is no more innocent than a soldier conscripted willingly or not to do the actual fighting. In Nazi Germany, the case was even more pointed, in that the average happy little German citizen wholeheartedly supported the criminal (but elected) regime that was was killing *other* civilians in a war of conquest. So the Allies - in a harsh but understandable decision - treated these civilians as the enemy as well. Do we believe that the people who actively support Federation rule without actually being in the military are somehow more sancrosanct than the soldiers who are fighting for it? *Are* they the people Blake is fighting for? Not likely. As I see him, he doesn't much *care* about them...he believes (whether justifiably or not) that most of the population under Federation rule are there under coercion, and *they* are the ones that matter to him. Obviously, this is a judgement call - if you disagree, then his actions are totally wrong. And the people who do matter? Part - the most important part - of the Allied bombing war covered military targets in occupied countries; dissenters and resisters, collaborators, or neutral, died in these raids. As I've said before, if you consider Star One a fair military target (and I do - the Federation's rule by 'expansion and conquest', and its methods of enforcing that conquest, do not add up to a *legitimate* government in my mind, though it may have been one long, long ago) the two cases are similar enough that one cannot be condemned without the other. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:53:22 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Heroes and Brains Message-ID: <20000116025322.61514.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Ellynne wrote: And Penny: Absolutely (though I'm not so sure about the second-in-command bit). There are plenty of anti-heroes that are cold-blooded bastards... *ours* was brattish in the bargain . ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 18:54:57 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people... Message-ID: <20000116025457.61307.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Julia wrote: I've read diary extracts from people in both of the majot totalitarian regimes that came as an absolute shock - these whole-hearted supporters of their governments' actions (the arrests and executions, the invasions of other countries, etc) were startlingly difficult to dislike personally when you got involved in the little details of their lives. I even felt *sorry* for some of the Germans, even though I could never (civilians as they were) think of them as innocent victims... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:26:42 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people... Message-ID: <20000116032642.49590.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed After Susan Beth wrote: Lisa answered: Oh, well, crystal clarity and exactitude is always nice to have... We can stop arguing now, I take it? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 19:27:40 PST From: "Sally Manton" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] GSP and Oppression Message-ID: <20000116032740.64741.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed TigerM wrote: I think they store them at my house...I just thought they bred in the cupboard, like wrire hangars. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:28:40 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism) Message-ID: <388148F8.119B@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe the hobbits nearly froze to death, not only on the mountains, but in the inclement weather when Strider was trying to get them to Riverdale. Most of the time they had pack animals or boats loaded with dense nutritive foods. They had a survival expert with them (Aragorn). He, Legolas and Gimli I believe set up camp most of the time they were travelling. The whole story was told from the hobbits' pov, and they had incredible luck finding provisions and/or protectors along the way. If Aragorn had been the narrator, doubtless the realism would have been greater. They had bad weather, hypothermia, wild animals, food-gathering, and the search for water; forced marches to get through hostile country, the loss of a pack animal, and the need for fire. What's the problem? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 21:57:53 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Star One & historical situations Message-ID: <38814FD1.1D6C@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > To give you some specific examples: In 1939, carpenter Georg Elser tried to kill > Hitler with a self constructed bomb. He didn't even belong to a group, he was > alone in making this decision. Since Hitler unfortunately left the inn half an > hour earlier than planned, he missed the bomb which went off eight minutes after > he had gone and killed quite a lot of civilians (and SA members) who were in > that inn. As Elser had known it would, but he was prepared to sacrifice those > lives if it meant Hitler would die as well. In making this decision, he wasn't > supported by anyone, he took that right much in the same way as Blake did. Was > he wrong? > Yes. An assassination planned that would target Hitler alone not only would have spared civilian lives but ALSO might not have missed the intended target! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:09:20 -0700 From: Helen Krummenacker To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Teleportation? Message-ID: <38815280.390C@jps.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >And my socks have perfected > > >teleportation. Well, one in every pair seems to have... > > > > I'm pretty sure that particular futuristic phenomenon was in existence even > > 23 years ago. > > Nah, that's just demons stealing them from the dryer. I'll leave it to you > to figure out what the forces of darkness want with all those unmatched > socks. > > Tiger M Making a new dress for Servalan. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:18:59 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] haunted house Message-ID: <388162D3.26EF22CB@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judith wrote: we have different definitions of Gallery. me: oh. never mind. but my feverish brain got to thinking, if *I* had screen capture, I would build a haunted house / trick 'n treat B7 page to my geocities halloween site: did anyone already do this? (OK, I'm off season, but it is the very best holiday of the year) Imagine the crew gone trick 'n treating in costume: Avon (Shadow) Jedi Knight Servalan (Gold) Sith Lord Blake (Gauda Prime) Bounty Hunter Travis (Voices ) The Mummy Cally (Sarcopogus) Queen Jenna (Keeper) Princess Tarrant (Sarcopogus) Spanish Inquisition Gan (Animals) Og Vila (Killer) Cockaroach Dayna (Aftermath) Cupid Orac (Gambit) Rubic's Cube Soolin - aw, some people have no sense of humor and refuse to dress up on Halloween __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 22:24:06 -0800 From: Pat Patera To: B7 Lysator Subject: [B7L] valentines day Message-ID: <38816406.292A87CB@netzero.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK, so Halloween is over, but what about a site showcasing the crew for valentines day? Pairing pretty pictures of: Blake & Jenna (early eps) Travis & Mutoid (Duel) Avon & Anna (Rumours) Servie & Jarvik (Harvest) Sleer & DeadMan (Sand) Vila & Kerril (City) Tarrant & Zeeona (Warlord) Dayna & Justin (Animals) *gag* Soolin & Dorian (Rescue) Cally & Zelda (Children) Krantor & Toise (Gambit) yeah, Soolin and Avon make a pretty pair, but it was never canon *sigh* Pat P __________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 02:46:00 EST From: Tigerm1019@aol.com To: Blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] socks Message-ID: <29.5df9ab.25b2d138@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 01/15/2000 4:26:19 PM Central Standard Time, Judith@blakes-7.demon.co.uk writes: > For goodness sake, hasn't anyone here heard of conservation of odd-sock > parity? > > It's *physics*, not demons. Well, since my socks never seem to achieve odd-sock equilibrium, I've concluded it's demons. They steal pens and paperclips too. I think Helen may be right about Servalan's new gown. ;-) Tiger M ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:01:43 +0100 From: Angria@t-online.de (Tanja Kinkel) To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Star One & historical situations Message-ID: <129kd5-1BO8GmC@fwd04.sul.t-online.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Me: > > To give you some specific examples: In 1939, carpenter Georg Elser tried to > kill > > Hitler with a self constructed bomb. (snip) > Was > > he wrong? Helen: > Yes. An assassination planned that would target Hitler alone not only > would have spared civilian lives but ALSO might not have missed the > intended target! Rigggght. And how precisely would you plan an assassination that would target Hitler alone if you were, like Elser was, a civilian who had to gather all his knowledge about Hitler's whereabouts from the newspapers (which were state-controlled and thuse prone to deliver limited information only anyway)? Besides, Elser wasn't exactly rich and able to to travel wherever he wanted. He had to do it on a occasion when Hitler was in Munich (Elser's hometown). Under the circumstances, he did the best he could and would have succeeded if only Hitler hadn't cut his speech short. (As he didn't succeed, he was arrested, spend years in a concentration camp and was executed in 1945 shortly before the Allies arrived.) About the only people who could have killed Hitler in a situation where they were alone with him (thus sure that noone else would be hurt) were members of the top Nazi hierarchy, and they, of course, had no motive to do so. Tanja ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:51:06 +0000 From: Nicola Collie To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] valentines day Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Pat P said: >OK, so Halloween is over, Awww, so where am I supposed to put this pic of Avon in his matador outfit? (Deathwatch) > but what about a site showcasing the crew for >valentines day? There are plenty of shots of people smooching. In addition to those already mentioned: Avon and Servalan (Aftermath, Deathwatch) Avon and Dayna (Aftermath) Avon and Cally-Alien (Sarcophagus) Tarrant and Servalan (Sand) More cute couples (don't recall if they actually kissed on screen) Tel Varon and wife (The Way Back) Egrorian and Pinder (Orbit) And there are a few suggestive looks between Egrorian and Avon, and Egrorian and Vila ;) >yeah, Soolin and Avon make a pretty pair, but it was never canon *sigh* Never stopped us before :) Nicola ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:06:10 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism) Message-ID: <015201bf6012$f492ea50$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Helen wrote > I believe the hobbits nearly froze to death, not only on the mountains, > but in the inclement weather when Strider was trying to get them to > Riverdale. > Most of the time they had pack animals or boats loaded with dense > nutritive foods. They had a survival expert with them (Aragorn). He, > Legolas and Gimli I believe set up camp most of the time they were > travelling. > The whole story was told from the hobbits' pov, and they had incredible > luck finding provisions and/or protectors along the way. If Aragorn had > been the narrator, doubtless the realism would have been greater. > > They had bad weather, hypothermia, wild animals, food-gathering, and the > search for water; forced marches to get through hostile country, the > loss of a pack animal, and the need for fire. What's the problem? Bilbo and the dwarves nearly starve to death in 'The Hobbit' as well, which is a kid's book. Una ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 11:19:06 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Idle curiosity prompted by last night's episode of The Bill... Message-ID: <017601bf6013$90cb9750$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sally wrote: > Una: > > > 5ft and 1/2 inch. You win. I spent three years at 4ft 11 and 1/2 inches until my feeble metabolism decided that it owed me another half-inch, thank Christ. > 'Nother thought that occurred to me - those chair/backrests > on the flight deck look uncomfortable enough, but can you > *imagine* what they would feel like to people of our height? > Avon's backache would be nothing to mine (and Vila's *complaints* > would be less than nothing to what I'm like when in pain.) Brrr... Don't even mention it. Our brand spanking new cinema is agony for m because the bit that makes everyone else's neck comfy sticks pushes my head forward so I sit with a hunch for the whole film. Ouch! Una ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 10:53:05 -0000 From: "Alison Page" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism) Message-ID: <01bf01bf6016$d6aef340$ca8edec2@pre-installedco> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Helen said - >I believe the hobbits nearly froze to death, not only on the mountains, >but in the inclement weather when Strider was trying to get them to >Riverdale. I haven't read any of the Tolkein books since I was a teenager (for those who don't know me - long, long ago) so I'm really not in a position to defend what I said. I was just recounting the impression I was left with after reading LotR: I was somehow frustrated by it, in a way that I'm not frustrated by Blakes 7. I must also say that the whole 'survival in the wood' thing was a bit of a digression from the point about the deflecting use of humour. Which is one area where I think B7 can go wrong. So - probably too big and diffuse a topic with too many caveats to deal with right now Alison ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:15:51 +0000 From: Julia Jones To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Many many people... Message-ID: In message <01b801bf5fa7$9b1b54a0$94a801d5@leanet.futures.bt.co.uk>, Andrew Ellis writes >From: Julia Jones > >>I am not aware that there was large scale compulsory use of pacifying >>drugs in the Soviet Union. Vodka doesn't count, as its use was merely >>state-subsidised rather than mandatory. >>> > > >And the Soviet Union didn't last as long as the Federation. (But I also >disagree on the WIDESPREAD use of pacifying drugs pre season four). > It's unclear what's going on in the colony worlds, although I doubt it would have been practical there. But it is the basic method of control in the dome(s) on Earth, the heart of the federation, and I'd speculate that this was one of the reasons they stayed in the domes. And this is probably going to be my last post on the subject for a day or two (doubtless to everyone's relief) - too much typing, and i've hurt my hands again:-( -- Julia Jones "Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!" The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 13:18:39 +0100 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: RE: [B7L] Gallery Message-ID: <39DCDDFD014ED21185C300104BB3F99FAF0738@NL-ARN-MAIL01> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Julia wrote: > > After the "Which loo do I use" incident at Redemption, I'm sure the > gallery loos need a separate opening ceremony of their own. What do you mean, "Which loo do I use"? Servalan always uses the executive loo, of course. So Judith should really have one of those added to the loos, in case the supreme commander chooses to visit. Yes I know she became a president and then a commissioner in seasons 3 and 4. But somehow I've always thought the title of supreme commander suited her best. Must be the 'supreme' bit of the title, which most of her cronies used to emphasise so beautifully. Jacqueline ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:21:46 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Tolkien (which was briefly compared unfavorably to B7 in terms of camp realism) Message-ID: <01db01bf601c$43e69940$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alison wrote: > Helen said - > > > >I believe the hobbits nearly froze to death, not only on the mountains, > >but in the inclement weather when Strider was trying to get them to > >Riverdale. > > I haven't read any of the Tolkein books since I was a teenager (for those > who don't know me - long, long ago) so I'm really not in a position to > defend what I said. The moral of the story being never to take on glassy-eyed obsessives on their home turf! ;) > I was just recounting the impression I was left with > after reading LotR: I was somehow frustrated by it, in a way that I'm not > frustrated by Blakes 7. No, I know *exactly* what you mean about that sense of frustration. I get it from most other fantasy, and I get it from a lot of TVSF (big three excluded). The sense of some key component lacking, or finding that the 'flavour' of a universe doesn't taste right. Una ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 08:03:26 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: [B7L] Re: Too Quiet Message-ID: <200001160803_MC2-94EB-AE0@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Though this thread seems to heading towards too noisy now... Kathryn wrote, re legitimacy of opposing sides: >But where do the parties in a civil war get their authority, > their legitimacy? In a case where it's a battle for two >different contenders for a throne, then both sides get > their legitimacy from whichever heir they're backing. In practice, it's still a case of which claimant wins. I have a very hazy memory, but can't find a source for it now, that Henry Tudor backdated his reign to the day before the Battle of Bosworth, so that all the men who thought they were fighting for the rightful King (Richard III) were suddenly turned into rebels. This always puzzled me, as if Henry wished to imply that Richard was never the rightful King, why not backdate his own reign a couple of years, instead of a couple of days? (OK, it was probably to do with the uncertainty over when/if Edward V had actually died.) Sorry, this is getting wildly off-topic. But the point, as it seems to me, is that a "rebel" can declare that the "legitimate" government has forfeited any authority by its own actions (in the Federation's case, murder of its citizens etc). In fact, Blake could declare himself a provisional government in exile, with the promise of elections as soon as practicable. I don't know why he doesn't take this line, but suspect he's never really comfortable with the idea of being in government himself (can't blame him) - see his reluctance in Voice from the Past, even when his mind isn't quite his own: I think that's his own personality breaking through. Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 13:24:14 -0000 From: "Una McCormack" To: Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Too Quiet Message-ID: <023101bf6025$00482dd0$0d01a8c0@hedge> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harriet wrote: > In fact, Blake could > declare himself a provisional government in exile, with the promise of > elections as soon as practicable. Ooh, that's an interesting idea. I'm going to swipe that shamelessly for the story I'm plotting. Una ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:13:10 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] valentines day Message-ID: <38816F85.567A46F6@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pat P wrote: > OK, so Halloween is over, but what about a site showcasing the crew for > valentines day? > yeah, Soolin and Avon make a pretty pair, but it was never canon *sigh* So use the back-to-back picture from Gold. Caption it 'Looking for Love in All the Wrong Places' Mistral -- "Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!" --Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2000 23:06:59 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Too quiet Message-ID: <38816E13.54449E0D@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Ellis wrote: > Mistral said, of Avon chosing Vila in Orbit.... > > >For > >that reason, he would need someone whose reactions he could > >predict, and control if necessary. > > > > I don't think that Vila was that subservient. He thought before he acted. He > thought well. And he looked out for his own back (unlike some other rash, > impetuous characters). Ah. I never think of Vila as subservient. But in any close relationship one partner is dominant (although it sometimes trades off, in the more equal ones.) I don't think you can really say that in A-V, Vila is the dominant one. Grins, Mistral -- "Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!" --Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:01:23 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: Re: [B7L] Too quiet Message-ID: <3881F961.EBB625FA@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kathryn Andersen wrote: > Hi Mistral! Glad to see you're back. I'm back too. Hurrah! Naughty computers. > > I'm afraid I can't agree that rebel leaders, however righteous > > their causes may be, have the same range of options open to > > them that legitimate governments do, with regard to civilian > > populations. > > And yet you said elsewhere (in another post) that the *legality* of > something is not a factor in deciding whether or not it is right to > do. (When you were responding to Neil's response to the argument about > the-end-justifies-the-means). Close. I said I don't care about the law *for the law's sake*. I care about right and wrong. Biblical principle is to obey my government until doing so forces me to do evil. I choose to follow that principle. If I didn't so choose, however, legality would simply be a convenience or an inconvenience, depending. Please note, I don't expect Blake to apply that standard. > I'm just beginning to wonder if the difference between a "civil war" > and a "rebellion" is just as semantically slippery as the difference > between a "freedom fighter" and a "terrorist", as we've discussed here > many a time before. Perhaps. But the example originally used, the US Civil War, isn't slippery, because the south had a constitutional right to secede. > But where do the parties in a civil war get their authority, their > legitimacy? In a case where it's a battle for two different > contenders for a throne, then both sides get their legitimacy from > whichever heir they're backing. But what about other cases? I'm > afraid I'm not a student of history, so I don't know. I don't think history is the place to look. I think the way to solve this sort of thing is to find the underlying principle at work. When you get basic enough, a solution appears. Using specific examples simply obfuscates things. Legitimacy of government is a tricky one, though. I've been studying and discussing that one IRL for two or three years, and still haven't sorted out what I think the basic principle is. As far as discussing Star One goes, I've made two general assumptions: One, that the Federation was a legitimate government originally, and Two, that Blake, at least, has legitimate cause to rebel. > The people > where there is a government making that decision, have already > implicitly granted their consent, wheras with a rebel, they have no > way of doing so. So we have an implicit consent, versus an unknown. Yep. That's what I've been trying to say. Not expecting anyone to agree, but to see where I think the difference is. It's a *serious* matter to withdraw your allegiance from your government and become a rebel. IMHO to force someone else to do that, or assume they would if you could ask them to, is wrong. > But even so, surely an action has a rightness or wrongness in itself? Sure. And killing others, without the authority to do so, is wrong. War confers the authority of the government. Rebellion doesn't. > The end does not justify the means, no, I agree with Mistral there, > but sometimes one has to choose the lesser of two evils. No. Rarely, if ever. Sometimes, two unpleasants. But almost always in such a situation, you're overlooking a third (or fourth, etc.) option. For example: Seize Star One. Give Orac and Avon a little time to analyze the system. Notify rebel leaders such as Avalon and Kasabi's replacement of your plans. At a preset time, cut off military and civil services. Give an appropriate notice (48 hrs?) that weather and traffic control, etc., will be cut off. Cut them off. Destroy Star One. That's one plan that might still cause crippling disruption to the government and minimize loss of noncombatants. Blake is lots smarter than I am, he could probably think of a better one if he were willing to slow down a little. > As for alternatives, Blake had *already* taken the peaceful protest, > civil disobedience route, *and it didn't work*. Er, no. It just hadn't worked *yet*. And I'm not saying he couldn't use violence after a fashion; just that as a rebel, he has to be careful of his targets. Else he becomes a terrorist. > Surely it is even > more wrong to kill your followers and achieve *nothing*, making all > those deaths a pointless waste? Blake's not killing his followers; they're laying down their lives for something that's important to them. They have that right. I don't think you can equate voluntary sacrifice to the deliberate killing of noncombatants. Apart from that, they did achieve a few things, for example, saving Albion. > I think that is one thing that was > knawing at Blake - that he didn't want it all to have been for > nothing. Which means they'd be dying for Blake's doubts and frustrations. Not really something I'd like to die for. Cheers, Mistral -- "Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!" --Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 09:15:26 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 List Subject: [B7L] Double Jeopardy??? Message-ID: <3881FCAD.EAD5A729@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Something's been nagging at me about Gan for a couple of days. Breakdown makes it seem as if installing a limiter might be a tricky, expensive process. Why did they put one in Gan if they were just going to ship him off to a penal colony? Do you suppose he committed another crime later? Or did he have some important status where he had to remain on Earth for a time, say, to train a job replacement, before being shipped out? Who's thought about this? Curious Mistral -- "Ad hoc, ad loc, and quid pro quo. So little time! So much to know!" --Jeremy Hilary Boob, Ph.D. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2000 01:40:58 -0000 From: "Neil Faulkner" To: "b7" Subject: Re: [B7L] socks Message-ID: <008301bf604a$c130a3e0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > For goodness sake, hasn't anyone here heard of conservation of odd-sock parity? > > It's *physics*, not demons. This might explain why people avoid me whenever I wear a loud jumper. It's the Pulloveri Exclusion Principle. (WHY are they called 'jumpers'? Mine never jump. My socks - at least the remaining ones - are reported to have crawled around by themselves on occasion. But the jumpers just lie there. And I know they're not doing any leaping when my back's turned, unless they know I'm watching them through the keyhole.) Neil "The only good alien is a dead alien" - Ursula LeGuin -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #14 *************************************